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zephiros
2010-10-03, 11:24 AM
I've been looking around recently for ToB handbooks and haven't found any for Swordsage (if anyone knows of any please link?)

I was wondering which races are among people's favourites for any of the ToB clases? Particularly for swordsage however, given the aforementioned lack of guides. Anything that boosts wis or dex (and if it boosts int too that's fine) and anything with a natural armour bonus are priorities there, SR or DR or SLAs or the like are nice to throw in as well but those are the main priorities I'd be looking for.

Emperor Ing
2010-10-03, 11:27 AM
I believe it's illegal to post copyrighted material on here, so I won't. All I can tell you is to look on the actual Tome of Battle and proceed from there.

I haven't played a swordsage yet so I can't tell you what races are best for its class features. I imagine a good race for Fighter is a good race for Swordsage though.

Kaeso
2010-10-03, 11:27 AM
I think there isn't any swordsage guide, but this should help you a bit:
A guide to Tome of Battle in general. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=51nnkp6rt25b1lit8as5lkpv70&topic=357.msg6905#msg6905)

Also, the general rule of DnD races is IIRC: "When in doubt, pick human".
A bonus feat and bonus skill points never hurt anybody ;).

EDIT: Grey elves boost int and dex, but the -2 con is always a though blow.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 11:43 AM
Swordsages get most of their damage from using maneuvers, and therefore don't really need/want huge Str like a typical Fighter. High Wis, using Discipline weapons, and just constantly using maneuvers is how a Swordsage remains effective. Towards this end, the Adaptive Style feat is required - you simply cannot continue using maneuvers on the Swordsage's default recovery mechanic.

For that reason, humans are a good choice just because they sort of cancel out the feat tax. Azurin (humans -skills +essentia) might be good if you take some Meldshaping feats, which would A. be awesome because Incarnum is awesome, and B. work pretty well with the highly-mystical Swordsage.

dgnslyr
2010-10-03, 11:45 AM
I think there isn't any swordsage guide, but this should help you a bit:
A guide to Tome of Battle in general. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=51nnkp6rt25b1lit8as5lkpv70&topic=357.msg6905#msg6905)

Also, the general rule of DnD races is IIRC: "When in doubt, pick human".
A bonus feat and bonus skill points never hurt anybody ;).

EDIT: Grey elves boost int and dex, but the -2 con is always a though blow.

I thought Swordsages used WIS as their mental stat, and warblades used INT. Also, Fire Elf is better than Grey Elf because you have the same stat boosts, but lose CHA instead of STR.

Hackulator
2010-10-03, 11:55 AM
If your DM will allow it, the best thing to do with a Swordsage is get Insightful Strike out of Book of Exalted Deeds and be a human. Barring that, a halfling with weapon finesse works really well, weapon size and str don't matter that much because as stated before your damage comes from the maneuvers, and the AC and hit bonus for small size are awesome for you, as well as the hide bonus.

Zore
2010-10-03, 11:56 AM
I, personally, like using small races like strongheart halflings, kobolds and the like for low levels as they can give you some awesome AC. If you use the unarmed swordsage you can get a lot of nice bonuses to both Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand as its a discipline weapon for both.

If you want a boost to Dex, wis and natural armor I would definitely say you want a Kobold, it gets a net +3 to AC without any stat investment and if you use the web enhancement it gives three natural attacks which you can combine with unarmed strike for four attacks at first level which is huge. If you also go dragonwrought you can grab +3 to all mental stats, but unless you use flaws you then won't be able to get Adaptive Style which is more important as both are 1st level only.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 11:58 AM
unless you use flaws you then won't be able to get Adaptive Style which is more important as both are 1st level only.Adaptive Style isn't 1st level only.

Zore
2010-10-03, 12:03 PM
Adaptive Style isn't 1st level only.

It says the pre-requisite is Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader level 1st so I assumed that was the case.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-03, 12:04 PM
It means you need at least one level, not that you have to be 1st. Same as Brew Potion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#brewPotion)'s Caster Level 3rd prereq.

Greenish
2010-10-03, 12:05 PM
It says the pre-requisite is Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader level 1st so I assumed that was the case.So you can't take Power Attack if you have more than 13 strength? :smallamused:

Douglas
2010-10-03, 03:07 PM
There are quite a number of feats that are 1st-level only, and every last one of them without exception states explicitly in can't-possibly-be-interpreted-any-other-way fashion that the feat can only be taken at level 1. This statement is generally in a "special" section at the end of the feat description, not in the prerequisites. In fact, I can't think of a single example that doesn't do it that way.

Adaptive Style is not one of those feats. Instead, it follows the example of Weapon Specialization and states a minimum number of specific class levels required as a prerequisite. Having more than that many levels is no more a problem than having more than 13 strength is for taking Power Attack, to copy Greenish's example.

mabriss lethe
2010-10-03, 03:47 PM
I don't think there's a handbook for Swordsage optimization because, frankly, they don't really need it. ToB classes are generally hard to screw up. As long as you can successfully hit a target and have the proper ability scores to boost any saves they might have to make from your maneuvers, you're functional. Your biggest hitter is your maneuvers and you'd really have to try to pick all sub-par/redundant ones. General optimization advice is really all they need.

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-03, 07:30 PM
Good races for swordsage: human, strongheart or water halfling, whisper gnome, dwarf, wild elf, xeph, elan, pixie.

Dralnu
2010-10-03, 09:19 PM
Human, WIS is important, get Adaptive Style. I'm playing a swordsage currently and also enjoying a high DEX with Shadow Blade / Weapon Finesse feat, but that's up to you.

You don't need a handbook. Having a firm understanding of ToB's general mechanics is a must and you don't need a guide for that. You know tons of maneuvers and can pick anything that sounds good without worrying about choosing "wrong." The class itself is very straightforward, fun, and effective all by itself.

EDIT: Well, I take some of that back. I guess a guide could be useful for "optimal dips" if you're not focusing primarily on swordsage. The ToB Handbook that people have linked cover that. I personally haven't seen many non-ToB classes that synergize very well with swordsage though (other than monk for Shadow Sun Ninja, bleh). If you want to focus on swordsage, I'd recommend just sticking with it all the way through.

Elfin
2010-10-03, 11:57 PM
If you want to focus on swordsage, I'd recommend just sticking with it all the way through.

I don't know; if you want to dual-wield, a couple levels in Bloodclaw Master could come in handy. But really, like the two other martial initiators, Swordsage 20 is a perfectly respectable build.

DragoonWraith
2010-10-04, 12:09 AM
An unarmed Swordsage gets two of the ridiculous number of pre-reqs for Master of the Nine for "free" (Improved Unarmed Strike and Adaptive Style - you were taking Adaptive Style anyway), and Desert Wind Dodge isn't terrible, as far as Dodge feats go, and Improved Initiative is always a solid feat and goes well with Quick to Act, making Blind-Fight the only really weak feat in the requirements. And with Blind-Fight you could go for Mage Slayer (very solid feat) and then Pierce Magical Concealment (freaking awesome feat). So Mot9 is reasonable enough for a USS.

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-04, 01:47 AM
Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Adaptive Style is that important for a Swordsage, as spending an entire round in combat to refresh your maneuvers is extremely dangerous and rarely necessary.

dgnslyr
2010-10-04, 01:55 AM
Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Adaptive Style is that important for a Swordsage, as spending an entire round in combat to refresh your maneuvers is extremely dangerous and rarely necessary.

Without it, you're refreshing one maneuver with one standard action. I'd say Adaptive Style is worth it.

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-04, 02:05 AM
What I'm saying is you shouldn't be refreshing maneuvers in combat at all. The Swordsage already has by far the largest amount of readied maneuvers of any initiator, and will probably never run out in combat. Even if you do run out (unlikely) you're far better off attacking enemies with regular attacks rather than spending an entire round doing absolutely nothing while your enemies are attacking you.

Endarire
2010-10-04, 02:58 AM
As a Swordsage, I've only recovered a single maneuver in combat -once-. I've seen only one other spend an action in combat to refresh a single maneuver. Adaptive Style and Swordsage refreshment take too long to be combat-viable.

Koury
2010-10-04, 04:00 AM
As a Swordsage, I've only recovered a single maneuver in combat -once-. I've seen only one other spend an action in combat to refresh a single maneuver. Adaptive Style and Swordsage refreshment take too long to be combat-viable.

I've never seen a Swordsage recover manuvers in combat ever, without Adaptive Style.

Though I've never actually seen a Swordsage without Adaptive Style anyway, now that I think of it.

Either way, I've both seen, DM'd for and played as a Swordsage who ran out of maneuvers in a fight and refreshed them. Its extreamly useful when, for one reason or another, an enemy is forced to waste a turn or temporarily retreats or any other sort of thing like that.

After all, a level 5 Swordsage has, what, 10 maneuvers (its level+5, right?)? And how many of those are readied? Using a boost and strike every round, you'd run out in three rounds tops, I'd think. Unless I'm in immenent danger of eating a full attack to the face, I'm refreshing my maneuvers real quick if I'm out.

Runestar
2010-10-04, 04:03 AM
What I'm saying is you shouldn't be refreshing maneuvers in combat at all. The Swordsage already has by far the largest amount of readied maneuvers of any initiator, and will probably never run out in combat. Even if you do run out (unlikely) you're far better off attacking enemies with regular attacks rather than spending an entire round doing absolutely nothing while your enemies are attacking you.

Problem is - I generally find myself with only a few useful maneuvers at any one time. So even though I still have quite a few maneuvers readied, I still want to refresh my expended ones anyways to use.

This is why I prefer the warblade. Sure, I can only ready so few, but recharging them is so easy, and this allows me to keep spamming the same few strongest maneuvers ever so often. :smallbiggrin: