magic the gathering

[medinabard]

i play magic, so was wondering on if could get tips building a kitsune/samurai deck.

[Akiosama]

Treat it like a White Weenie deck? That was how I built mine. It's a White Weenie deck that's a little more powerful than it should be in creature conflicts because of Bushido. Definitely use Kitsune Blademasters, though. My favorite creature in the whole block. And Samurai of the Pale Curtain (? It was the WW Samurai that removed stuff from the game instead of going to the graveyard) is a decent sideboard card against reanimation/recursion decks...

Don't get too caught up in equipment, either. My rule of thumb is a minimum of 2 creatures per piece of Equipment/Beneficial Aura/Combat trick. I've had too many games in the past where I've been stuck with Creature Enhancements in my hand and no creature to cast it on.

It's too bad that outside the block, especially now with Boros having so many ways to wreck weenie decks, that Samurai aren't that great. It seemed like it could have been a lot cooler of a concept than it finalized into. Ninja are nice, though.

Just my 2 WW.

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

When did Magic get equipment?
Are they just creature enchantments that have a keyword, or are they artifacts that you treat as creature enchantments or what?

[NEO|Phyte]

artifacts that you equip to a creature.

essentially, they are artifacts that act like swappable creature enchantments

http://www.playordraw.com/design/article_images/cloak.jpg

[Akiosama]

Equipment was introduced in the Mirrodin block as a new card type (read: we're using it even though it's no longer Mirrodin block.) *Therefore, Artifact - Equipment is the new card type. *It works like this.

Equipment comes into play like an artifact (i.e. it is treated as a standard artifact and is unattached). *As a sorcery (during your turn with an empty stack) you may pay the equipment's Equip cost to attach it to a creature. (Think some of the early Swords or Flying Carpet, though you could use those as fast effects, IIRC.) *Equipment then bestows its abilities on the equipped creature. *If that creature is destroyed or removed from play, the equipment becomes unattached, but remains in play. *Also, as a sorcery effect, you may pay the Equip cost to take the equipment from an equipped creature, and move it to another creature. *There is no limitations to the amount of equipment that a creature may have (unlike L5R). *You may only equip creatures you control.

Here's a good example of an equipment card, WampaX. *

Loxodon Warhammer
Artifact - Equipment
3

Equipped creature gets +3/+0, has trample, and has “Whenever this creature deals damage, you gain that much life.”

Equip 3: *(Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)

Uncommon
Mirrodin

It's not bad, but it does make it feel like I'm playing L5R.

Oh, and for anyone interested, look up cards through WotC's card database at http://gatherer.wizards.com. *It works very well.

Just my 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

So if the equip is like a sorcery can its effect be targeted by cards that target sorceries? (ie. counterspell, deflection, etc.)

[ivanmckilliagin]

no, it just moves at sorcery speed, it's actually just the artifacts activated ability.

[Deleran]

I think a better templating would be: "Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery." I'm actually surprised that that isn't the wording they used, seeing as thats what they use for discard activated abilities.

PS: 4 copies of jitte ftw.

[Akiosama]

I think that's what it says now. *This was just the current Oracle wording for Loxodon Warhammer. *But yeah, it's play only when you could play a sorcery. *It keeps equipment from being tossed around unreasonably in combat as a fast effect.

One thing to keep in mind, you may not voluntarily unequip an equipment. This matters for cards such as Vulshok Gauntlets (+4/+2 but does not untap as normal) or Lightning Greaves (Equipped creature cannot be the target of spells or abilities). Also, it is an artifact-sourced effect so it cannot target creatures with Protection from Artifacts (some of which showed up in Mirrodin block).

My 2 mana (UB - Glimpse the Unthinkable, mill you for 10.),

Game on!

Akio

[BotlGnomz]

I think a better templating would be: "Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery." I'm actually surprised that that isn't the wording they used, seeing as thats what they use for discard activated abilities.

PS: 4 copies of jitte ftw.

Ah, the exigencies of actually having to fit the text on a card.
The templating makes sense to me, but I'm a judge. It's my duty to make sense out of everything.
Who loves Guildpact? I love Guildpact!

[Akiosama]

Speaking of reminder text, can you guys believe that they put reminder text on Flying in 9e? It's like you don't have to remember anything about keywords at all anymore in Magic..

Having played since Revised, I'm not sure I necessarily like it like that.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[BotlGnomz]

They started that in 8th edition.
They're trying to make it easier for complete noobs to sit down and play.
I don't even see the reminder text anymore when I glance at cards.

[Akiosama]

Guess I didn't notice that until 9e for Flying.

But it's weird that they didn't add that when they started with the whole reminder text thing. I just figured the main core keyword abilities should all be just that keywords with no reminder text needed. Let them LEARN a bit, first.

Just my 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[medinabard]

okay comment it plz.

13 plains

creatures
inner-chamber guard
Nagao, Bound by honor
Sensei Golden-Tail
Kitsune Mystic
Takeno, Samurai General
Bushi Tenderfoot
Araba Mothrider
Silverstorm Samurai
Brass herald
Kitsune Blademaster x3
Mothrider Samurai x2
Samurai Enforcers x2
Devoted Retainer x2

other spells
Blessed Reversal
Chastise
Ghostly Prison
Breath of Life
Otherworldly Journey
Call to Glory x2
Genju of the Fields x2
Vigilance x4
Indomitable Will x4
Glorious Anthem x2

[tgva8889]

I have never noticed reminder text on Flying. Regeneration, however...
They put reminder text on the abilites that confuse even experienced players.

As for Samurai White Weenie, I make you this deck at random, right now:
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Kitsune Blademaster
4 Hand of Honor
3 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
3 Sensei Golden-tail
2 Kentaro, the Smiling Cat
2 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
2 Nagao, Bound by Honor

4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Terashi's Grasp
4 Charge Across the Araba

That deck might be good. You could replace Kentaro and Isao with, maybe, Araba Mothriders or something, or maybe just some random cards. This deck is pure Kamigawa, so there are some cards from other sets worth adding.

Do you think you are a Johnny, Spike, Timmy, or mixture? Anyone?

I myself believe that I am a Johnny/Timmy or a Timmy/Johnny, since I love combos, expecially ones that let me swing for the fences with giant creatures, but combos in general make me happy. Sometimes, however, I just love to kill people with creatures.

[tgva8889]

okay comment it plz.

13 plains

creatures
inner-chamber guard is bad
Nagao, Bound by honor
Sensei Golden-Tail
Kitsune Mystic is bad
Takeno, Samurai General
Bushi Tenderfoot is bad
Araba Mothrider
Silverstorm Samurai is bad
Brass herald is bad
Kitsune Blademaster x3
Mothrider Samurai x2
Samurai Enforcers x2 is bad
Devoted Retainer x2 is bad

other spells
Blessed Reversal is bad
Chastise
Ghostly Prison
Breath of Life is bad
Otherworldly Journey
Call to Glory x2 is bad
Genju of the Fields x2
Vigilance x4 is bad
Indomitable Will x4
Glorious Anthem x2

Sorry to say it, but a lot of those Samurai are really, really bad. No offense to them (or you), but those are not great Samurai. Not saying the ones I used are too great either, but you could have at least used the one samurai still being used! (Hand of Honor, anyone?)

I missed Genju. However, I assumed you wanted to go straight to the face, killing. If you want to stall a bit more, play a different deck. Not Samurai.

[medinabard]

thanks but the cards you suggested i dont have so ill jus stick to my snake warrior/shaman deck.

[tgva8889]

Ah...sorry then.

Your deck is alright. I would, however, suggest that you go for more cards that cost less mana than 6. 6 mana costing Samurai are not nearly as good as the ones that cost 2 or 4 (usually, with the exception of Takeno ruling them all).

[Deleran]

Call to Glory and Breath of Life are not bad. A white zombify and a nice combat trick aren't terrible cards. 13 plains is way too few. Even with the cheapest deck, 16 lands is scraping the absolute low. Unfortunately, tgva is correct that many of the good white samurai are uncommon or rare. JMS'S budget samurai (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jm105) might be more up your alley.

[tgva8889]

Call to Glory is not a great combat trick. There are better. I would rather have Anthem or Charge Across the Araba, since Anthem is permanent and Charge is a win condition. Literally.

[medinabard]

looking threw my cards i found
samurai of the pale curtain x2
cage of hands
candles' glow
blessed breath
should i put some passifism in it

[medinabard]

the deck is only 50 cards so 13 mana isnt bad.

[Deleran]

Only if your costliest card is 3 mana.

[Dhavaer]

Only if your costliest card is 3 mana.

I had a deck like that once. It worked really really well, so long as it won within about 5 turns. Any longer and it just didn't have the punch.

[Nero24200]

I have a pretty good deck, every second creature/enchantment has on it "Put a 1/1 sappling creatue into play" doesn't sound good, but I don't care when theres about 17 out at a time (happens alot!"

[Dhavaer]

I knew someone with a similar deck. Verdant Force, Beast of Burden, Eladamri and a stupid amount of elves.
Now my main deck is a Mirrodin Blue/Black that mostly takes advantage of Affinity to do ridiculous things. It has a very good success rate.

[Deleran]

Now my main deck is a Mirrodin Blue/Black that mostly takes advantage of Affinity to do ridiculous things. It has a very good success rate.

Several of the cards in that archetype were banned. I don't know how you play, but I prefer to not play with broken cards.

[Dhavaer]

Really? Which ones? I have no way of knowing which cards are banned; I haven't really had anything to do with the game for a year or so.

[Akiosama]

All the artifact lands, Disciple of the Vault, Aether Vial (I think), Arcbound Ravager, and Skullclamp got banned from Mirrodin block, I believe.

I'm pretty sure about all of them except for Vial and Ravager itself... Anyone want to confirm?

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Jibar]

Ah, Magic. I've never really been that happy with trading card games since I was one of those unfortunates who got hooked on the pokemon one...
My friend actually got me to try this. I have no idea though how to play.

[Dreistein]

Regarding the Volshok Gauntlets try either the Brass man (costs 1; 1/3; can untap for 1) or the yotian soldier (costs 3; 1/4; vigilance)
It is easy to get fast strong creaturs like this.

[Akiosama]

The Yotian soldier is the best choice for the Gauntlets, I can think of. Well, barring non-Mirrodin choices, anyhow. Otherwise, I'd probably say Morphling like anyone else.

Just my 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[Deleran]

Well, skullclamp is banned in everything but vintage and 2 headed giant. I dont think aether vial was ever banned in anywhere but extended. Ravager and the lands were only banned in standard. Disciple was banned in standard and extended.

[Akiosama]

Too many banned/restricted lists for me to keep up with. *I generally only play extended, standard, and limited. *And I only play standard and limited in tournaments, so I generally only watch the standard banned list.

My 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Deleran]

I didn't think the mirrodin standard environment was very healthy at any point. First 80% of the decks played in standard were affinity, then 60% were tooth and nail. I think WotC dropped the ball on that one. And skullclamp was just a mistake (one they repeated with jitte).

On a completely different note, I still disagree with your assessment of call to glory. Its power level is perfectly acceptable for a budget deck, and its a combat trick, which neither of the other two cards you listed are (not to mention its cheaper mana-wise, which is always helpful in a ww deck). Its quite easy to generate card advantage with the card without crippling your board position.

[Akiosama]

Yeah, Deleran brings up a good point. What is this deck for and what type of players will be playing against it? A deck for casual play should be very different than one for tournament play. And a budget one will be very different from a tournament, no-holds barred one.

And Deleran, in regards to the Jitte and Gifts Ungiven, the only other card that seems to get much play outside Kamigawa block still...

3 boxes (2 tournament and 1 booster box) of Champions of Kamigawa - 0 Gifts Ungiven.

2 boxes of Betrayers of Kamigawa - 0 Umezawa's Jitte.

I have all the luck. At least I'm getting dual lands in Ravnica/Guildpact (2 1/3 boxes of Ravnica - 5 duals. 1/3 box of Guildpact - 2 duals.)

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[tgva8889]

As for Gauntlets, there's a card in mirrodin...Goblin something, it was a 3/3 for 4 that didn't untap during your upkeep but you could pay 3 to untap it during your upkeep. I think. It's a bit better I think than some of the other cards you mentioned.

For the "budget" deckbuilder, a.k.a. that guy on the website, technically a lot of the cards he uses aren't budget: he uses 4 copies of a lot of cards, and even some money uncommons and some pretty popular commons. So I wouldn't go by all his rulings.

Now, as for Call to Glory, it is almost strictly worse than Charge Across the Araba. First and foremost, Charge Across the Araba in mono-white beatdown says "you win target game" printed all over it. Call to Glory does not. Second, Charge can and will save whichever creatures you want, as long as you have enough plains, which in mono-white, won't be a problem. Call to Glory, +1/+1 isn't in the same category. Third off, you probably only want to play Charge when it will win you the game. I would NEVER use it as a combat trick. Also, combat tricks are much less useful now, as many cards have "destroy" printed in their texts, and a lot of players won't even try to kill your creatures with creatures, opting to use Shocks and Volcanic Hammers, among various other kinds of instant-speed punishment. Also, untapping all your creatures isn't all that useful (I'm sorry, it won me a limited match, but actually it won me a match because I happened to have, like, Pristine Angel, and it was really the +1/+1 that scored me the win, not the untapping...I was also using a card that didn't require all my guys to be samurai to be nearly as good). Mana costs are not a big deal when you are winning the game that turn. I would rather win with no plains in play than lose with all 6 or 7 of them. Charge, by the time you play it, can say "Creatures you control get +5/+5 until end of turn. If they don't kill your opponent, scream, because you've already lost". Early on in the game, Call to Glory probably isn't worth it, and later, it is even worse. You want a combat trick? Otherworldly Journey, Imdominable Will, even the seemingly random Giant Growth are better choices. Saving all your creatures won't help when your opponent is targeting one of them.

[Deleran]

Dude. You're talking about a (questionably accurate) metagame. You have no idea what type of metagame medinabard plays in. If all his friends play decks with high creature counts and low removal (like most new (and budget) players do, and lets face it, medinabard seems like a new player), then call to glory is an excellent defensive card. If you're in a situation where theres alot of creature interaction, than in my opinion call to glory might even be better because you don't have to sacrifice board position (and if you opponent has blockers, charge across the araba doesn't give trample). And as far as budget is concerned, the ones JMS builds are quite a bit cheaper than that $50+ deck you proposed.

[tgva8889]

Fine, but there are better cards. At least Roar of the Kha works on all your creatures. And just because it doesn't give your 10-some creatures trample doesn't mean you don't win the game. You don't usually use it as a combat trick, because you use it to win.
Casual metagames tend to depend on the players. People with older cards probably won't have extremely fast games, making Charge even better. I also didn't know I was looking at a limited-cash environment. I am also a major Magic player. Unfortunately, I have yet to qualify for JSS. I should probably get working on that Eye of the Storm deck...

[medinabard]

to Deleran i have been playing for 8 years, each of my friends(quite a few) carry four decks. we decided that to have a kamigawa block tourney so i wanted to make a samurai deck with the cards i have and was looking for help.

[tgva8889]

Ah, he is not a new player. See?

Now, it would be good to know what types of decks you plan on winning against with a Samurai deck like the one you are using. A deck with more cards that cost less mana would be able to defeat a more controlling, slow deck, but I don't know if your current deck can beat too much else.

My current fun deck is a deck based around Auras and the Ravnica auras with CIP abilities. I love using them, as I can do stupid stuff with them. I have killed great beasts and done very stupid things, like make my opponent kill his own creature to prevent me from getting one. I also made an army of 21 saprolings then attacked lethally with them. I also played Galvanic Arc at least 10 times in one game. I also love combos. I have caused my opponent to concede to Auratouched Mage searching my deck for Followed Footsteps. Ah, so fun.

[Akiosama]

Also, check out Chris Romeo's articles on http://starcitygames.com. Look in the Featured writers' archive. He writes generally for the 'common person' as opposed to the high-end tournament decks.

He can be pretty funny, too.

Maybe that'll help.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[tgva8889]

Truthfully, it depends on what you have what you can build. You do, however, need a somewhat large cardpool to build decks. I suggest that if you are attempting Kamigawa block you buy some more cards.

[medinabard]

ill do that

[Akiosama]

Goblin War Wagon? *I think that's what the 3/3 goblin mentioned is. *And it's ok for the Gauntlets, too. *I tend to use the Yotian soldier more because it doesn't require extra resources to use.

The Goblin War Wagon text is below:

Goblin War Wagon
4
Artifact Creature
3/3

Goblin War Wagon doesn’t untap during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may pay 2. If you do, untap Goblin War Wagon.

Common
Mirrodin

It's not a bad choice for the Gauntlets. *I just hate having to pay to untap creatures. *I'll take Vigilance over that any day, especially since Vigilance will allow me to use the Gauntleted creature on defense as well.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

heh.
Brass Men
Yotion Soldiers
Nice to see these old cards haven't been outdone by newer/better ones yet.

I'm guessing vigilence is just their new keyword meaning "does not tap to attack"?

[NEO|Phyte]

yes

[Akiosama]

Hey WampaX,

If you want a real blast from the past - the included foil card on the new 9th edition starter set is a foil Serra Angel. New artwork - not bad, too - though that'll send the prices for foil Serra Angels down to around the price of that set. It is nice, though. I put mine in a hard case next to my computer for a decoration.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[tgva8889]

Vigilance does indeed mean that.

And I think some old cards may have been outdone, though not forever. Dark Banishing has been outdone about twice, in Terminate and Putrefy.

Now, I have been looking for some more ideas for more recent cards to use in an Eye of the Storm deck. So far, my Brother and I have built 2 versions. Anyone with any other ideas, I'd like to see them. Type 2, please, though other ideas I suppose are open.

But I'd pay 2 mana for a 7/5, even without trample. Especially if I got to reuse my +4/+2.

The best way to use Gauntlets is to put it on your creature with, maybe, flying and attack, then move it to another creature, preferably untapped.

Mods are awesome!

[Akiosama]

But you'd get to reuse the Gauntlets on a 5/6 (Yotian Soldier) for no mana per turn, and you'd get that 5/6 for defense as well. That's why I'd take it over the Goblin War Wagon, if we're just talking about utility with the Vulshok Gauntlets. The extra 2 damage, to me, isn't worth 2 mana and not being able to defend with the Gauntlet-ed creature.

But I don't tend to play overly agressive, either. I tend toward blue or white.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Nero24200]

I tedn towards Black, Green and Red

That reminds me, I have taken to naming some of the unique cards in my deck
eg My green nature deck has only one Giant Boar card, which is now named Okoto
If I could tell teh difference between cards of the same type, I'd have named them all

(Okotot, I choose you!)

[tgva8889]

I tend more towards colors that aren't black, as long as I don't play Green/White. I tend more towards Red, Blue, and White, just because I love combos. They are cool. You can't beat my Eye of the Storms! MWAHAHA!

Magic...is....so...AWESOME!

[medinabard]

i play white combos with anything execpt blue how i hate blue

[NEO|Phyte]

*drool*

It turns out that when my borther was here left, he had left his boxes of cards behind. I figured out yesterday when he asked me if I've looked through them yet.

[Dalmarian_Ranger]

Elves are awsome low cost great combos

[Dhavaer]

I generally play blue, blue/black, green/white, green or white. Occasionally Blue/Black/Red.
I did once win a game playing with a 75 card booster, though. Not sure how that happened.

[Deleran]

U/G has been my favorite color combo since tempest block. Best Bear Ever FTW ;D.

[Dhavaer]

I remember I once forgot my cards and borrowed a Blue/Green Tempest deck from a friend. It was a slightly modified premade deck called 'Tempo' or something like that. It had a great deal of counters in it, and I ended up getting the friend who lent the deck to me to scream:
"Why did I ever give him a counter deck?"

;D

[Nero24200]

My firend now has a deck of only artifacts, so you can imagine his face when I played with my Tel-Jilad Elf Deck

Whats that, I get to destroy one of you artifacts?
whats that, you artifacts don't work against me?
Whas that, you're can't beat me? Well , with that attitude, I'm not surprised

[WampaX]

I remember I once forgot my cards and borrowed a Blue/Green Tempest deck from a friend. It was a slightly modified premade deck called 'Tempo' or something like that. It had a great deal of counters in it, and I ended up getting the friend who lent the deck to me to scream:
"Why did I ever give him a counter deck?"

;D

Reminds me of an old firend who stopped buying lotsa cards around Ice Age. Over the course of the years following he would trade here and there to keep current on a few card types, but mainly to support his blue control deck. It didn't care if your deck had the newest and fanciest cards around. What it couldn't counter, it controlled. And what it couldn't control it would swap you something of lesser value for and still use your own toys against you.

[NEO|Phyte]

Ive seen the horrors of a well-crafted blue control deck.

Some funky artifact that restricts everyone to 1 spell a round + another artifact that can imprint an instant on it which can then be used free as a tap ability = lockdown.

There is also the Penoptic Mirror + Beacon of Immortality "My life total doubles every round" deck, which generally also includes a Test of Endurance (If, at the start of your upkeep, your life total is 50 or more, you win)

[Nero24200]

I am a sick, twisted individual, picture this

A tri-colour magic articfact deck that allows me to
Sacrifice creatures to get bonus eg +2/+2 on most cards(Atog's and Metatogs)
Damage the enemy when my cards go into the graveyard (Disple of the Valut, got 4 of them and it's culmilative)
Create an amry with low casting costs that help bring out other cards (Myr's, got two of every colour)
and allow me to bring creatures back from the grave

[Akiosama]

Sounds a lot like a variant on Ravager Affinity. *Cheap artifacts, Disciples (which are currently banned in Extended), and a way to Sacrifice them at your leisure for benefits were the main cogs of this powerful deck. *However, Arcbound Ravagers work better in most cases as a sacrificial engine than Atogs or Megatogs, since they:

*Gain a +1/+1 token each time an artifact is sacrificed (permanent, not temporary)
*Are Modular, so all counters can be transferred to another artifact creature when the Ravager is sacrificed/destroyed.
*Are Artifact Creatures and therefore are another artifact to sacrifice, as a Ravager can sacrifice to itself, if need be. *(It can also be brought back by a Skeleton Shard/Myr Retriever, though I don't know if any of the Ravager decks were using them, off the top of my head.)
*Are colorless, and therefore, have less difficulty coming into play.
*Are far cheaper than Megatog. (2 vs. 4RR)


The Arcbound Ravager is to be an engine for sacrificing artifacts first, and a potential attacker second. *However, because the advantages of the Ravager's sacrifice ability are permanent, you don't have to 'time' your sacrifice of artifacts as closely as you do with the Atogs, in order to utilize them to their highest efficiency.

There's a reason why the majority of Affinity decks were run with Arcbound Ravager rather than the Atogs... and a reason why generally the first Disciple to hit the table was the winner in the mirror.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Aevii]

Hey WampaX,

If you want a real blast from the past - the included foil card on the new 9th edition starter set is a foil Serra Angel. New artwork - not bad, too - though that'll send the prices for foil Serra Angels down to around the price of that set.
The foil Serra that Douglas Schuler illustrated? I don't see that happening :)

[Akiosama]

Probably not for that particular version, but the price of Serra Angels across the board to non-collectors certainly is going to go down... *Especially if the core set boxes start going on discount after 10e comes out. Heck, I got mine at Gencon where WotC was giving the starter sets away as low-end prizes at their booth.

I doubt it'll affect all the versions of Serra Angel, since there are major collectors out there wanting the original picture one, though. *Only the 'play' copies will go down.

It's like the Siege Gang Commander from Scourge. *They included it in a pre-constructed deck, and therefore the card wouldn't rise in price over that of the Pre-constructed deck until that deck went out of stock, since you could just buy one in the pre-con deck...

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Aevii]

Ah, I see your point now.

Pre-cons aren't the best example, though. Extremely high-powered rares will make a pre-con more expensive than driving down the cost of that particular rare-the best example being Umezawa's Jitte, which showed up in a rat deck pre-con, of all things.

I'm greatly looking forward to Dissention, if only to see what White/Blue will bring to the table. I do hope the blue/green guild offers something for Enchantress players.

[Akiosama]

Jeez, it did? I bought 2 boxes of Betrayers and didn't get a single damn Jitte...

Though if it's being used as often as it seems to be... it's a good candidate for scrutiny, IMO...

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Nero24200]

Just bought a box of betrayers and it is filled with Ninjas. Thankfully, they are proper ninjas (stealthy, sneaky rather than back-flipping invicble maniacs)

Plan on playing a white deck later, any tips for handaling my new deck?

[tgva8889]

One. Wrath of God.

Playing White Control, you can't go wrong with Wrath of God and a couple of it's lesser cousins. Catastrophe, Final Judgement, and Rout are some good versions of Wrath, though I'm sure there are more. The downfall is, of course, that all Wraths are rare. Read the article on the Wizards site about Wrathing and when to Wrath.

Big Creatures like Angels and certain Legendary Dragon Spirits are also helpful.

Actually, the reason that Ravager Affinity was cheap is this:

Turn 1: Artifact Land, 1/1 Modular Artifact Creature
Turn 2: Artifact Land, Ravager, Free Frogmite, Free Frogmite, Swing
Turn 3: Artifact Land, Disciple, Free 4/4 Myr, swing.
Turn 4: Land, swing, sac my artifacts, you lose, and if you don't, I still have a 9/9 Ravager and I'm holding another artifact.

Among other stupid wins. It was the best deck. And that win didn't even abuse Aether Vial. God.

[feral]

I haven't played Magic: the gathering in awhile myself, but I remember a certain combo I set up in a Black deck. I had artifact swamps skeleton shard, dross scorpion, dross golem, the myr that provided black mana, some cards allowing me to sacrifice critters and artifacts, and disciple of the vault, In 4 or 5 turns (unless I got really unlucky,) I could sac a dross golem, use the ability from multiple scorpions to untap mana and skeleton shard, use the shard to bring the golem back, play it and repeat indefinitely, reducing the opponents life each time due to the disciple. Not the most efficient combo, but it gave me an idea of why Disciple of the Vault got banned.

[tgva8889]

Affinity is the reason Disciple got banned. Nuff said.

[Akiosama]

1/1 Modular Artifact Creature (a)

Free 4/4 Myr (b)
(lettering added by me for reference below)

(a) is Arcbound Worker. *(b) is Myr Enforcer.

While I saw some builds that ran that way, I also saw builds that ran around Disciple of the Vault, since you could sac your artifact lands and artifacts to the Ravager for benefit and do life loss at the same time. *It was not interactive with the opponent at all, for the most part, and that was the largest complaint I heard about the deck, not the speed, since affinity was being abused all over the place buy just about everyone playing artifact heavy decks. *It was generally, first Disciple to hit the table wins.

The game you have listed still has to swing to do damage, which means it can be blocked. The decks I saw didn't really swing. They let Disciple end the game.

Just my 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[tgva8889]

Fine.
Turn 1: Artifact Land, Aether Vial
Turn 2: Artifact Land, Ravager, Vial for Disciple
Turn 3: Artifact Land, Frogmite, Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, sac stuff for damage MAYBE
Turn 4: Disciple, sac artifacts, Shrapnel Blast for the win.

[Akiosama]

Yeah, that's more along the lines of what I was seeing (probably wait until turn 4 to sacrifice artifacts and kill all in one turn). *It's more broken if the game is non-interactive (i.e. most of the deck can happen regardless of what the opponent does) versus interactive where the opponent's decisions can affect how well the deck works, IMO.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

Fine.
Turn 1: Artifact Land, Aether Vial
Turn 2: Artifact Land, Ravager, Vial for Disciple
Turn 3: Artifact Land, Frogmite, Frogmite, Myr Enforcer, sac stuff for damage MAYBE
Turn 4: Disciple, sac artifacts, Shrapnel Blast for the win.

[doddering old man]
Pfft, 4 turns?
Back in the day we lost on turn 1 and we liked it. Well, unless we had a good card out for Ante and then we would get very mad and punch people until they gave it back to us. We called it "Takeback", usually cost UB to cast it, sometime R if you hit 'em in the face, sometimes UBR if you aimed real well.
[/doddering old man]

[Akiosama]

That's funny.

But they have been trying to get the game back to being just that a game... with interaction between players and strategies... rather than just a 1-5 turn whomp that happens unless you specifically game against it... Keeps the game fresh, IMO.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Ebon_Drake]

[doddering old man]
Pfft, 4 turns?
Back in the day we lost on turn 1 and we liked it. Well, unless we had a good card out for Ante and then we would get very mad and punch people until they gave it back to us. We called it "Takeback", usually cost UB to cast it, sometime R if you hit 'em in the face, sometimes UBR if you aimed real well.
[/doddering old man]
you old fogey. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=Unhinged&name=old_fogey#) ;D :P

[WampaX]

you old fogey. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?set=Unhinged&name=old_fogey#) ;D :P

That card has keywords I don't know (does that make me an older fogey or perhapse elder fogey?). What are "echo" and "fading"?

[Ebon_Drake]

Lol, that's great!
Fading was from Nemesis and meant that a permanent came into play with X fading counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep you have to remove a fading counter, if you can't then you have to sacrifice the permanent (see Blastoderm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=blastoderm) for the best example). Echo was from the Urza's block (Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny) and meant that on your first turn after playing a card with echo you had to re-pay its mana cost or sacrifice it (see Albino Troll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=albino+troll) or lightning dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=lightning+dragon) for examples). Both were mainly to get big creatures for cheap costs.

(Edited to make more sense.)

[WampaX]

Lol, that's great!
Fading was from Nemesis and meant that a permanent came into play with X fading counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep you have to remove a fading counter, if you can't then you have to sacrifice the permanent (see Blastoderm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=blastoderm) for the best example). Echo was from the Urza's block (Urza's Saga, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Destiny) and meant that on your first turn after playing a card with echo you had to re-pay its mana cost or sacrifice it (see Albino Troll (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=albino+troll) or lightning dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/gathererlookup.asp?name=lightning+dragon) for examples). Both were mainly to get big creatures for cheap costs.

(Edited to make more sense.)

But you would only have to pay the echo, fading, and cumalative upkeep costs on the turns that it wasn't phased, correct?

[Ebon_Drake]

But you would only have to pay the echo, fading, and cumalative upkeep costs on the turns that it wasn't phased, correct?

Yes. There was an article which went through the different turns and what you'd have to pay on each one, IIRC it goes like this: first turn it comes into play you pay two green to cast it(obviously); second turn it phases out, you pay nothing; third turn phases back in, pay two green for echo plus one for cumulative upkeep plus remove a fade counter; fourth it phases out again; fifth it phases in, pay 2 for cumulative upkeep and remove a fade counter; sixth it phases out again; seventh it phases in and you pay 3 for upkeep and remove the last counter, eigth it phases out, ninth it phases in and dies to fading. There, that's officially all of the fun syphoned out of the card ;D

[tgva8889]

At least they edited phasing so that when you phase out, it counts as leaving play, and when you phase in, it counts as coming into play. When something phased out, it used to not count as leaving play. Wormfang creatures, here we come!

[Ebon_Drake]

At least they edited phasing so that when you phase out, it counts as leaving play, and when you phase in, it counts as coming into play. When something phased out, it used to not count as leaving play. Wormfang creatures, here we come!
Just to be annoying, it's other way around for both. Phasing used to only trigger leaves play abilities and not comes into play ones, but now it triggers neither. For some reason Magic R&D thought there was something wrong with taking infinite turns with Wormfang Manta.

Article explaining the changes to Mirage, including phasing. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/bs20)

[IncarnateArcher]

Sadly, I quit about a year ago when more than a third of the cards in my deck got banned from Type 2. >:(

[Akiosama]

Standard is all about cards leaving the format.

Standard format is - The current Core Set (right now, 9e), and the most recent two blocks of expansion sets (right now, Kamigawa and Ravnica block). *It's not a long-term format - it rotates a block in and out every year. *For a more static population of cards, you need to try Extended, Legacy (1.5), or Vintage (1).

Standard format is mostly what keeps WotC selling cards, and it's the third easiest format to enter the game at. *The second is Block (all cards come from one expansion block), and the easiest is Limited (either Sealed deck or Booster draft) since all you need are the unopened cards and players.

Though, if you're talking about a year ago... you might be talking about Mirrodin block, and I can see where your complaint might be. *That was a very broken block, IMO (fun in casual, but broken and not fun in tournament play), and due to the pervasiveness of the Affinity mechanic in tournament play, many cards that were associated with that type of deck were banned. *I'd imagine that at least 70% of the decks in play during Mirrodin Standard were either an Affinity variant or a Tooth and Nail variant, and that's not really a good environment for tournament play, especially if the main deck choice (Ravager Affinity) was relatively non-interactive with the opponent. (Ravager Affinity Mirror Matches were often described as being won on the initial 'coin toss' to see who went first in Game 1.) *Good deck/strategy variation and good player interaction are healthier for the tournament scene, because it makes players think and strategize more than in an environment where one or two decks rule, and that leads to the best players generally winning. *

For those of you who have been around that long in the game, the Affinity environment was a lot like that of Trix, especially that of Necro Trix.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

For those of you who have been around that long in the game, the Affinity environment was a lot like that of Trix, especially that of Necro Trix.

Wow . . . I have no idea what you are talking about there. Just to give you a little perspective, the last Magic tourney I went to was the pre-release for Exodus.

What the heck is a Trix?

[Akiosama]

Trix was a deck created by PT player Michelle Bush back from around Urza's block that won with a specific combo:

Illusions of Grandeur (Ice Age) + Donate (Urza's Destiny) + Disenchant (or some other way to destroy an enchantment)


Illusions of Grandeur
3U
Enchantment

Cumulative upkeep 2
When Illusions of Grandeur comes into play, you gain 20 life.
When Illusions of Grandeur leaves play, you lose 20 life.

Ice Age rare

and


Donate
2U
Sorcery

Target player gains control of target permanent you control.

Urza's Destiny Rare

[You remember Disenchant, right, WampaX? ;D]

So, the way the deck played was like Draw-Go (draw, drop a land, go - with a hand full of counterspells) until the turn in which the player put down Illusions, gained 20 life, Donate on Illusions, giving it to the opponent, and then Disenchanting the Donated Illusions to make said opponent lose 20 life.

Worse yet, was when Necropotence was added to the deck.


Necropotence
BBB
Enchantment

Skip your draw step.
If you would discard a card, remove that card from the game instead.
Pay 1 life: Remove the top card of your library from the game face down. At the end of your turn, put that card into your hand.

Ice Age Rare

It wasn't uncommon to see Necro Trix decks where people would draw 17-19 cards in one turn to try to get their combo cards.

But a full on 40-50% of the field was Trix during that period of play once the strategy was put up on the Net.

So Wizards banned Necropotence, in order to slow Trix down, and ended up hurting a LOT of decks to do so. *I don't remember if they banned anything else. *(Many black decks were using Necropotence at the time as their card drawing engine in a bit more... reasonable fashion.) *But the banning came to be primarily because of Necro Trix...

And the same thing happened in Mirrodin Block. *Affinity became too popular, so they banned all the artifact lands, Disciple of the Vault, and Aether Vial, and Arcbound Ravager, all cards that were staples of Ravager Affinity, that environment's Necro Trix.

A little M:tG history for you all out there. *Hope that helps, WampaX.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

Yeah, that clears it up.

Disenchant
W1 Instant
Destroy target enchantment or artifact.

If I recall, there are cards that are better than it, more efficient, can do more, and whatnot.

[Akiosama]

Not really. *Most of the other cards like Disenchant do one or the other. *Like Demystify


Demystify
W
Instant

Destroy target enchantment.

Scourge Common

And Disenchant is now green and called Naturalize.


Naturalize
1G
Instant

Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

Scourge Common

In any case, white's gotten a bit weaker over the years, but it's nowhere near gone... *Just a bit more weenie and different in flavor. At least it still has Wrath of God.

Just my 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[medinabard]

does anybody know if the new guild-whatever are any good?

[Akiosama]

Do you mean the new Guildpact set or do you mean Ravnica and the guild concept as a whole?

Guildpact has some interesting cards in it, but the only issue that's come up is that all the guilds in Ravnica seem to be done with getting cards, and this set is focusing on the three new guilds introduced in this set (G/R, B/W, and R/U). *Haven't built anything yet or drafted it yet, so I can't say how good or bad it is, though G/R seems to be the strongest, so far, from what I'm hearing.

As for the block so far, the guild idea is pretty good, and fun, and this has been the best selling M:tG block to date (for two sets worth). *Ravnica seems to be taking off well, hearkening back to those who liked Invasion block's multicolor options. *(It's certainly more fun than Kamigawa block which was a letdown after Mirrodin's versatility.)

All in all, lots of potential. *Just haven't tested it out yet.

My 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Deleran]

Lol, a Trix breakdown. I really like Ravnica. I'm not drafting it like I drafted CBS (which was quite a bit), but I've made a couple casual budget decks that I have fun with on MTGO.

And speaking of Mirrodin Block, did you see that they banned the bad boys of affinity in Block Constructed for the Block Wars format? R&D really dropped the ball on that one.

[Akiosama]

I just don't think they tested Affinity quite hard enough before letting it through R&D. *I'm shocked that Aaron Forsythe, being the PT player he was, missed that one...

As for Ravnica drafts... I've done it for the first set, not with two sets yet, and it's been a blast. Far more fun than the few we did with Kamigawa block. (We drafted so much Mirrodin block that Kamigawa bored us to tears. After what felt like a year off of drafting, except for the occasional 999 draft, we're back enjoying Ravnica block.)

My 2 mana,

Game on!

Akio

[Deleran]

Admittedly, I'm not terribly familiar with the Affinity archtype, (I avoided Mirrodin standard because of how degenerate I heard it was) but it seems to me that the real culprit was the artifact lands. Without them, it becomes harder to cast affinity spells, and the deck really has to run suboptimal cards to make up for it. Not to mention the ravagers themselves really go down in power.

[IncarnateArcher]

Though, if you're talking about a year ago... you might be talking about Mirrodin block, and I can see where your complaint might be.
I was one of the first ones in our area to make a ravager affinity deck. I started with only a Modular deck in mind, with 3 Triskelions and 4 Arcbound Ravagers. Believe it or not, they were *cheap when they were first released and I bought each for $2 a piece. *;D Then when I played against my friend's Atog deck, and he beat me with a Megatog and Disciple of the Vault combo. Thus, I got the idea of putting disciple in the deck with cheap artifacts for sacrifice. It was pretty good, because I often won in casual games. (I don't play in tournaments because I'm not the competitive type.) Then about a week later, ravager's price (at our area at least) was already about $10 and rising. My friends remodeled my deck to be more competitive and they borrowed it for FNM, where they usually end up as one of the top 3. I was happy with my deck until several months later they banned most of the key cards in my deck. (Skullclamp was also in my deck before but was banned much earlier.) I couldn't play much in the card shop anymore cause most of the players there play type 2. I tried playing with kamigawa cards, but I couldn't figure out a deck I could stick with, so I quit playing.

[medinabard]

which is better: sword of kaldra or banshee's blade ?

[Deleran]

They're both very situational cards. In terms of raw power, I'd have to say Sword of Kaldra, simply because it can end games if your opponent doesn't remove it. However, I can't admit that I'm a very big fan of either.

If I were to use Banshee's Blade, it would probably be in a deck that manipulates counters, because its just not a very powerful card on its own. On the other hand, the sword of kaldra should probably only go into two different types of decks. Either a combo deck with the helm and shield, or a weenie deck where the sword sits at the top of your mana curve and is basically your finisher. That's my advice.

Edit the second: A slowdown at wizards.com led me to look up the cards in question on google and I noticed that there's alternate art for the Kaldra set as well as Ryusei, Ink-Eyes, and Kiyomaro. They're pretty cool.

Edit the third: I just realized that my copy of Gleancrawler from playing in the Ravnica prerelease is alternate art. Thats pretty cool too.

[Quayleman]

does anyone know a good card to use with Kiki Jiki?
(he's the COK red goblin legend that puts copies of creatures into play with haste)

I've been running intruder alarm in a casual deck for a while now, and am looking to spice things up a bit

[Deleran]

Any creature with a comes into play ability is good. Duplicant was a common choice from Mirrodin block. Creatures with Haunt are good. Black cards in general are typically good, especially cards like Highway Robber, Netherborn Phalanx, Nekrataal and Keening Banshee. The -Onna cycle from Saviors works too. If you want something really devestating though, try Sundering Titan or Darksteel Colossus. They were the cards most commonly paired with Kiki-Jiki in tournament Tooth and Nail decks.

[medinabard]

the dimir deck is awesome. i decked out my brother in like six or seveth turns. he was playing the boros deck
he brought me down to 3 i came back to 13. Then attacked him with the rare creature (5/5) it does not do damage but makes the opponent discards from there libary for every point taking damage then it doubles it is attack .

[WampaX]

So is Unhinged as fun as Unglued?
Would it be worthwhile to invest in a box for some fun "out of the box" games (communal pile of cards rules)?

[Akiosama]

Wampinator,

Unhinged was pretty awesome.*Unlike Unglued, however, it was not as inspired by previous card. *They added stuff like 1/2 damage points, a lot of 'Ass' cards (donkeys), Artist keyed cards, and just all around plain fun looking cards.

If you're curious about them, take a look through the card database at gatherer.wizards.com (http://gatherer.wizards.com). *You should be able to search it by set and it has image access in its database.

It was a blast of a set. *It even had one card that could affect any game being played within view of the game that the card was played in. * ;D

I invested in 2 boxes, myself.

Check it out, I recommend it if you like Wacky Magic.

My 2 mana (BB - Ritual, Ritual, 1st turn Sengir Vampire, ftw! *8))

Game on!

Akio

[Vindemiatrix]

Hoy!

There is this guy I play after school who only knows how to play White (or White in combination with other colors). He professes that Blue and Black are terrible colors. To get even with him, I aspire to make an "I Hate White!" deck, and teach him a lesson. However, I can't think of much to put in said deck other than Flashfires, Execute, Black Knight, and Hand of Cruelty. Could you please help me?

[Akiosama]

What kind of white deck is it? *There can be many types, though White Weenie (lots of small cheap quick creatures) is pretty typical.

Much of the color hosing isn't worth it, or can feel like you're just targeting his deck, though, in this case, you are.

Black Knight is good, as can be Gloom, depending on what your opponent is playing. *You have to watch out for Karma sometimes, since you're playing against white...

Blue can be good, too, depending on what you have access to. *Flyers will be good, as is the ability to control what he can and can't play. *Morphling, of course, if you can get it, is one of the best cards in Magic. *Further, the ability to draw cards could prove handy as well.

Personally, B/U might be a decent combination to fight White. *Perhaps a Discard deck could keep him tied up, as he wouldn't be able to draw cards unless he's playing blue, for the most part, and Black Knights would keep him in check. *

And if in doubt, a Goblin deck always works wonders. *Goblin Warchief and Goblin Piledrivers for the win. *If you'd like to learn more about strategy for Magic at all levels, check out the writer archives at Star City Games (www.starcitygames.com) or Brainburst.com (www.brainburst.com). *These are great strategy sites, with both free and premium articles, but a lot can be learned from the free articles alone. *Further, tournament level decklists are available on both sites.

If you could be more specific on the White deck, we might be able to come up with something better.

Hope this helps. *You don't necessarily have to 'color hate' to win. *Just winning can suffice.

My 2 mana (UU - Quiet Speculation, toss 2x Roar of the Wurm and Wonder into the graveyard...),

Game on!

Akio

[Malachi, the Lich King]

Hoy!

There is this guy I play after school who only knows how to play White (or White in combination with other colors). He professes that Blue and Black are terrible colors. To get even with him, I aspire to make an "I Hate White!" deck, and teach him a lesson. However, I can't think of much to put in said deck other than Flashfires, Execute, Black Knight, and Hand of Cruelty. Could you please help me?

Eh, when I was playing [back in the day] the only time I beat a white weenie with a mono black consistently was when Necro was still in the Standard environment. A couple of thoughts: Flashfires isn't all that effective since a white weenie runs off of minimal land [plus that is moving into Red which really isn't the point of this, right?]. Black Knight doesn't keep the opposing Knights is check because they can't block one another. You just accept that you'll be taking X damage each round and race to throw out more weenies than the other guy.

Mutilate is a good board sweeper but I don't know if its Standard legal right now [meaning I didn't keep up with 9th so am clueless on reprintings] Since its doesn't target and doesn't deal damage it gets around those annoying pro-black creatures.

White weenie is also usually too fast for any mono blue deck as the weenies come out too fast for most counterspells.

Still, I haven't kept up with Magic since Mirrodin so YMMV.

[Chris_Chandler]

White is really good on "not losing", though it sometimes (with the ubiquitous white weeny concept) has trouble making a non-loss an actual win. Blue can be fast enough to stymie the advance, though black is better to stop a horde of weenies. Pestilence, for the good ol' fashioned example, with put a stop to that but quick. Use black to keep the swarm down, then blue for solid control, in the mid-game.

I use thig in a u/g control deck, but the blue spellbomb work great. I've found, at least in my group that sending cards back into your opponents' hand is more effective than sending them to the graveyard, because they'll just keep trying those same cards down - they get bottlenecked.

A B/U deck I've used involved plinking blues (like Tims and Thorniwind Faeries), and black destruction. I've seen a simple combo like a cavern harpy/ravenous rat recursion, likewise, give a headache to a white player, who usually does not like to play from the deck.

As for a win condition, black has easy candidates, and even a underpowered ability like Fear can push through for the win, though I prefer it come with wings when I use black.

[Malachi, the Lich King]

White is really good on "not losing", though it sometimes (with the ubiquitous white weeny concept) has trouble making a non-loss an actual win. *Blue can be fast enough to stymie the advance, though black is better to stop a horde of weenies. *Pestilence, for the good ol' fashioned example, with put a stop to that but quick. *


If the creature base in white has moved away from so much pro-black then Pestilence might actually work but in the past it was useless against the bulk of the white weenie horde's various Knights: White Knight, Order of Leitbur, Paladin En-Vec, [that pro-black shadow creature], et al.

[WampaX]

If the creature base in white has moved away from so much pro-black then Pestilence might actually work but in the past it was useless against the bulk of the white weenie horde's various Knights: White Knight, Order of Leitbur, Paladin En-Vec, [that pro-black shadow creature], et al.


That's why U/B is such a nice combo. Everything that the B can't touch, the U can control, counter or change so B can touch it. OR you could target your own cards and change their color such that they are no longer B.

[Akiosama]

It's a possible strategy but a bit too... janky... for my tastes (in regards to color changing and color hosing). White isn't all that powerful on its own, save Armageddon or Wrath of God, and even then it's usually only a setback, unless you've overcommitted your resources. Even Swords to Plowshares can only get rid of 4 creatures tops, unless your opponent puts it on an Isochron Scepter or some other recursion/duplication combo.

Really, what you need to do, rather than looking at the color your opponent is using, is to take a step back from the game, analyze his 'path to victory' and see how you can interrupt that path. Is he winning by White Weenie? Wrath him. Pestilence him. Shock his White Knights. Radiance cards from Ravnica might work (Incite Hysteria, Cleansing Beam and Wojek Embermage come to mind.) Out weenie him with Conclave (G/W) from Ravnica. Play R/G beats with the stuff from Guildpact. Use Ensnaring Bridge or Propaganda to slow him down.

There are a lot of options out there to deal with threats, but in order to make it work, you have to know his threats, and then come up with an efficient way to deal with his threats. (And yes, outspeeding him is a way to deal with his threats - a threat that cannot threaten is a non-threat.) Don't focus on the color. Focus on the deck.

My 2 yen,

Game on!

Akio

[WampaX]

He professes that Blue and Black are terrible colors. To get even with him, I aspire to make an "I Hate White!" deck, and teach him a lesson.

Akiosama,
From the initial post, it seems he was looking for a way to beat his snow-blind friend with B/U and make him eat a little crow in the proccess.

[Akiosama]

I missed the color bit as a deck requirement. *I didn't think he necessarily wanted to use blue/black, but instead was trying to find a way to beat a white-based deck, and voicing some of the opinion that he'd been presented with.

I would play Draw-go against him then. *Or Tradewind Riders. *Buehler Blue? *Forbidian? *Trix? High Tide? I would think that BLUE has had far, far, far more good decks than any other color out there. *Blue has been a fantastic color to play, until very recently, since they're trying to figure out how to put blue back in check, and hamstringing it in the process. *And there's nothing worse than watching your opponent play a Blue deck against you. *(And that's all you end up doing... *You don't really play against a good control deck... you watch it, IMO.)

Or Black - MBC (Odyssey era), Suicide Black... Anything with Duress, Rituals and Hypnotic Spectres. *Black usually doesn't have too many problems either, unless your opponent runs Compost. *I know there's been quite a few good black decks out there, too.

Or go blue/black. *Psychatog. *Dimir, perhaps? *(Dunno how well Dimir is doing, but I like it.) *And the best part? *'Tog deckparts aren't that hard to find.

There are a lot of choices out there. *The only decks I can think of that have white and were major decks are CounterPost (which wouldn't be used by someone who hates blue), Rebels (Lin-Sivvi was BROKEN, I can't help you there if that's what you're up against), Astral Slide (a favorite of mine, but not that strong in an Extended/Legacy format), and White Weenie. *What I usually see white for is a support color or a weenie deck...

Still, the key isn't to focus on the color, but the deck and beat the deck. *Color hosers can help, but generally, color hosing decks tend to focus too much on hosing the color, IMO, than winning the game, and often end up losing in the process. *(CoP White anyone?)

Also, knowing what cards the Anti-white poster has access to, and what he's up against, would make this discussion much more helpful, I would think.

My 2 mana (WW, Mesa Pegasus... huh? WTF?)

Game on!

Akio

[Ebon_Drake]

Rebels (Lin-Sivvi was BROKEN, I can't help you there if that's what you're up against)
For rebels (or any white-weenie tribal deck) I found cards like engineered plague, Tsabo's Decree, Massacre, No Mercy, Stronghold Discipline, Ascendant Evincar and so forth were excellent answers, and if you use blue as support then Propaganda, War Tax or possibly Collective Restraint could be used to slow a rush. For countering general weenie decks, Mutilate was mentioned, but more recently you could go for Night of Souls' Betrayal and/or hideous laughter for mass shrinkage. Since the poster was thinking of using blue, then mass bounce effects like wash out or echoing truth would be useful to counteract protection creatures, the bane of black decks, as well as removing problem enchantments, if only temporarily. Hand of Cruelty would be worth considering in a black-heavy deck for its pro:White and, as your enemy isn't using black, fear creatures like nezumi cutthroat should definitely be considered. All in all, I'd go for mainly black for its solid creatures, with blue utility cards for slowing your opponent down and answering threats that black cards can't. Ooh, thinking of that, using blue/black means you could also use one of my favorite cards ever: Recoil. Its from Invasion, but if you're allowed to use cards that old then pick up a set of four, they're only common and are seriously powerful removal.

Once you've got the ability to slow down and control the game then it would just be a case of picking a finisher. Dralnu's Pet was a favorite of mine, but is old and needs a fair amount of support to be useful, Avatar of Woe was funny but again is rather "old-school", Sengir Vampire and/or Mahamoti Djinn might be fun for their classic feel but and are fairly easy to get but are a little outclassed these days, Kokusho is awesome, but a pain to get ahold of... meh, any big, nasty, evasive monstrosity would be fine. just keep the board clear and smash some face.

Alternatively you could go the Dimir milling/control route with the focus on Traumatise, duskmantle, maybe Szadek, Glimpse the unthinkable, induce paranoia, maybe Eradicate, thoughtpicker witch, plus if you look into older sets with scalpelexis, haunting echoes etc, but thats a bit of a dull strategy and very vulnerable to an early rush, so may not be ideal.

[Akiosama]

The problem with Rebels, was, at least back in its day, it developed WAY too fast and consistently, since Rebels chained up, instead of down like Mercenaries. *That allowed for consistent development of the deck since Rebel 1, would ensure getting out a stronger Rebel 2, which ensured getting out a stronger Rebel 3, etc. in an extremely timely (and uncounterable) fashion. *Usually it was a timely Rebel Informant that would save the day... and since it was a Rebel, timeliness was not necessarily that big of an issue. * Granted, I don't remember much about the environment in question, or how it's doing now, but at the time, so much of the deck population was Lin-Sivvi it was ridiculous. *If you couldn't beat Rebels, you might as well have not shown up at the tournament. *It's no surprised she got banned.

Though, I will admit, the new Legend rule would probably change the mirror match significantly...

I don't recall, though, if tribal hosers were in existence at the time beyond Informants, (I don't think so, but I could be wrong), and that was one other problem with combating the Rebel format that has changed with the current availability of cards...

So, like you said, maybe there's hope for combatting Rebels after all, in today's environment. *I haven't really thought about it too closely, myself.

My 2 mana (GG - 'The best Green creature ever printed' - Wild Mongrel, discard four cards, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, Basking Rootwalla, and Basking Rootwalla),

Game on!

Akio

[TheThan]

I just noticed this thread. But I thought I would add my thoughts to the current discussion.


Now if you want to be able to beat a specific color regardless of the style of deck your opponent is using, you have got to understand what each color is capable of doing.

White
White has some clear advantages, it has some very powerful instances and sorceries out there ( im looking at you, Wrath of God) it also has many strong enchantments out there and now a days it loves artifacts. It usually has an advantage in power level with it's small scale creatures. Basically your creatures are at bargain price, with many 1/1 fliers for one mana, and other mean stuff like that. Another advantage is that their creatures tend to be hard to kill.
Its disadvantages's is that it doesn't have very many heavy hitters (I mean anything over a 4/4 is pretty large, and hard to come by.) The few it does have are extremely powerful though, ( ahem, Akroma Angel of Wrath). It's also almost forced to topdeck the entire game. So it can't go looking for spells it needs, huge disadvantage right there. It also has a harder time dealing with threats that aren't on the board as most of its spells focus on creatures or preventing damage.


black

black has a lot of advantage that can easily be abused by a good black player (hard to find nowadays unfortunately). Two big advantages behind black is its ability to force your opponent to discard cards, and land destruction. Both of these deny your enemy resources. Now I will never condone land destruction as no one ever likes it. But its there if you wish to use it. Discard is great but I wouldn't rely on it. But its great early game and gives you a card advantage. Some more advantages are its ability to draw cards at will and to search for spells (keep in mind that diabolic tutor doesn't force you to reveal the card, hehe). Also its reanimation prowess allows you to keep pace with other colors and opens up for a variety of combos.

Black's biggest disadvantage is its creatures, which don't really stand up to white, as its creatures tend to have less defensive abilities which often times gets them killed, leaving you defenseless. While it has big creatures, often times the drawbacks of using them often times vastly outweighs their usefulness.

Black has a concept that is in limbo between advantage and disadvantage. That's its "power at a cost" theme. Some times the cost is far too high for the power you would gain. Other times it isn't, which makes for some extremely powerful and oftentimes broken cards. (Yagamoth's bargain for example).


blue

now blue is a fantastic color with a huge amount of diversity. Blue as a whole can do anything the other colors can do. Which makes them vastly overpowered and now we see it getting nerfed until they can find a good balance for it.
Blue's numerous advantages include insane draw power, tutor power with cards like merchant scroll and fabricate. It also can reorganize the top of its library to make the most out of the cards it can draw. But blue doesn't stop there. It also has a wide assortment of creatures that manipulate the board, as well as "weenie" creatures and also some freaking huge creatures (polar Kraken) that you can use for beat down. Blue also has a wide assortment of useful and powerful instances and sorceries as well as some enchantments. All of these combined make for a rather overpowered color.

Blue has no serious draw backs. The only real ones I can think of is the difficulty in playing the color, simply because you have more options open as a player. Blue is the default combo color of choice, with good reason. It can be a bit intimidating to use blue at first because of its power.


So since we know that the opponent in question is playing a white deck. I believe a white weenie deck to be specific. It should be fairly simple to construct a deck that takes advantage of white's disadvantages. But i will leave the specifics up to you.

[coron]

Me perssonally I've been playing magic since I was like 7 (granted it was only 6 years ago) and I will just say this out. In my latest deck the newest card is one from the set after 7 edition. I personally just like using the older cards for multiple reasons. a) there are no super powerfull incredibly unbeatably cheap combos/cards b) its less complicated c) it costs less money because I can use my brothers old cards. Thats just my opinion.

[medinabard]

anybody have any ideas to build an izzet deck. I bought the theme deck and fell in love.

[Akiosama]

I'm not sure what's in vogue right now, but if you check out Star City Games (http://starcitygames.com) you might find a good deck idea or two. Mind you, most of what you'll find is tournament caliber, though, so they might not be easy to build.

My 2 mana (RW, Lightning Helix, 6 point swing!)

Game on!

Akio

[Hateable_Bastard]

There are no tournament Worthy Izzet decks, There was a UR deck that was played a lot in Type 2 before Guildpact , But thats it.

[The_Glyphstone]

NO tournament worthy Izzet decks? Isn't that a bit harsh?

[Athelis]

There are no tournament Worthy Izzet decks, There was a UR deck that was played a lot in Type 2 before Guildpact , But thats it.
You seem to have forgotten about Izzetron

[Soniku]

I love the old cards because a creature with flying wasnt just another creature, it was a good creature. But now it seems all creatures that arent 1/1 or 8/8+ HAVE to have special abilitys, which kinda makes it impossible to play an older deck because the old cards cost more for less power D=

Anyway, as you can guess from my avatar, I play a leonin (YAAAAAY) deck with lots and lots of really decent equipment... but I dont use the sword/shield/helm cards because their just cheesey and cheap =p

[Hateable_Bastard]

You seem to have forgotten about Izzetron
Hm, I have figured that archetype has died out when Gruul and Ghost Dad came along . . . No one plays it any more , But if you are indeed correct I thank you.

Soniku: Kreh . . .? Unless you are playing cards from homelands the old cards are far more powerful then the newer ones, Lets see, Without going into the
-really- overpowered ones, Cursed Scroll, Mutilate, And Ichoriod are all far more powerful then any card that was recently printed.

Vindemiatrix: Against white: Last gasp, Hideous laughter, Night of souls betrayal, Evacuation, Then just slap him silly with your citters, Black and blue's strength is not in sheer power and brutal creatures, Its in staying in control, Once you gain control of the board, Just make sure he cannot do anything and beat him up with fliers while doing so, Kokusho, The Evening Star fits this task perfectly.

[Athelis]

Well, I'll admit Izzetron isn't as played as it might have been, but i saw at least one variation on the Pro-Tour Honolulu decklist, and for the record, I hate net-deckers, so i wasn't just looking for a deck to copy.

[Hateable_Bastard]

The trick is not to netdeck, Its to know the metagame and act upon it. A good deck
A) Does something, And does it well
B) Has specific cards that can counter the strategies of each and every other played archtype in the metagame, Or another way to counter them.

[Athelis]

I know, I just said what I said so people don't think i was netdecking.

[Vindemiatrix]

Quote by Medinabard:

Anybody have any ideas to build an izzet deck? I bought the theme deck and fell in love.

I have an incredibly successful Izzet deck based off the preconstructed version, however, it has some major modifications, not all of them Type 2 legal.


CARDS TO TAKE OUT:

* * Petrahydrox (too easy to deal with)
* * Izzet Chronarch (nice ability, but a wee bit too pricy)
* * Pyromatics (innefficient)
* * Peel From Reality (with the number of creatures you're hosting, you need as many as you can get)
* * Runeboggle (utter, sheer, total crap. Basically, it's a 3-mana clone of Disrupt. Funny flavor text, though. ;D)
* * Convolute (not bad, but there are so many better versions)
* * Frazzle (too much for too little, and not reliable at that)
* * Vacuumelt (innefficient)
* * Thunderheads (innefficient and innefective)
* * Leyline of Lightning (although decent, there are much better cards to spend your mana on)


CARDS TO PUT IN:

* * Steam Vents (not actually neccesary, but a nice card, and I got it in a pack! *;D)
* * Izzet Guildmage (although overrated, it's still a solid and cheap 2/2, with a pretty neat ability too)
* * Wee Dragonauts (already in the deck, but it's so good that you need more!)
* * Gelectrode (see above)
* * Goblin Flectomancer (an excellent defense against direct damage, and just plain annoying to your opponent)
* * Azami, Lady of Scrolls (with all the Wizards in the deck, it's all the cards you could ever need)
* * Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind (strong creature with a nice ability. Combine with all the other card draw in the deck, especially Azami, and it makes for a pretty sticky situation for your opponent)
* * Shattering Spree (AWESOME! JUST PLAIN AWESOME!)
* * Echoing Truth (effective creature removal, and kills token decks)
* * Counterspell (duh!)
* * Leap of Flame (a nice finisher, also a good surprise defense vs. the likes of Phage the Untouchable)
Schismotivate (a good Swiss-Army knife)
Electrolyze (a better Swiss-Army knife)
* * Invoke the Firemind (an excellent finisher, or you can use it to plumb even deeper for that one card you need to blow your opponent out of the water)
* * Library of Leng (or Spellbook. With all the card drawing the deck has, it's nice to not have to get rid of all those fine cards. Also, the Library, while [1] more, provides both a safeguard against discard decks and something to do on Turn 1)
* * Isochron Scepter (I think I just had an evilgasm!)

EDIT: The deck posted by V is in fact an infinite damage combo involving Izzet Guildmage, Lava Spike, and Desperate Ritual. How to do:
1. Play Izzet Guildmage.
2. Lava Spike your opponent.
2a. Splice Desperate Ritual onto Lava Spike.
3. Wait for Lava Spike to resolve (so you get the [RRR])
4. Copy. Again. And again. And again.

[medinabard]

ok i have looked around and liked nothing i saw because the other deck rely on rares that i dont have so i put this together but still under construction.

spells:
repealx2
peer through depthsx2
train of thoughtx3
schismotivatex2
convoluteX2
runebogglex2
telling timex2
leap of flamex3
pyromaticsx3
vacuumeltx2
thunderheadsx3
frazzlex3
lava spikex2
desperate ritualx2

creatures:
gelectrodex3
wee dragonautsx2
izzet guild magex2

mana:
island x9
mountain x10
steam vents :)
izzet boilerworksx4

[medinabard]

any advice ?

[undead_snack]

It seems you are going for the izzet guildmage/lava spike/desperate ritual combo. You also havea few good creature/spell interactions like dragonauts/leap of flame to back it up. If this is what you are aiming for, I would suggest this:

Out:
2x repeal
2x telling time
2x runeboggle
2x peer through the drifts
2x izzet boilerworks
3x thunderheads
3x frazzle
1x gelectrode
3x train of thought

In:
2x izzet signet
2x wee dragonauts
2x muddle the mixture
2x boomerang
1x lava spike
1x desperate ritual
3x counterspell (mana leak if you're going for tournament legal)
2x steamcore weird

Muddle the mixture is there for transmuting fo the guildmage or boomerang. Having 4x dual lands is risky, so I put in 2x izzet signets. I trimmed the deck to 60 cards to increase your chance of getting the right cards. Thunderheads is only good for defence, and you need a backup for lava spike/ritual so I added two dragonauts. Steamcore wierd provides a bit more permanent defence, which the deck needs.

Try this deck and play around with the cards a little. Consider goblin flectomancer to keep your guildmages alive. I hope this helps you.

[Marak_Knight]

the best use of lava spike ive found so far is with Djinn Iluminatus.

Used to play red/green that used Heartbeat of Spring as the acccelerator and could win by turn 5.

[Ikkitosen]

Anyone wanna critique my deck? It was from the Urza's and Mercadian Masques blocks largely, but I recently got a few more cards that I liked...

Big Black Nastiness

Creatures

4 x Phyrexian Negator
4 x Drinker of Sorrow
4 x Mindslicer
1 x Guiltfeeder

Ways to bugger up your opponent's hand

4 x Duress
3 x Unmask
2 x Persecute
(Also, 4 x Mindslicer, from above)

Ways to make things go better for myself

4 x Dark Ritual
2 x Vampiric Tutor
2 x Yawgmoth's Will
1 x Necrologia

Threat Removal

3 x Diabolic Edict
3 x Vendetta

Lands

4 x Peat Bog
1 x High Market
18 x Swamp

Generally you get threats out early and kill in about 4 turns, sacrificing things as needed to keep the Negators and Drinkers in play. Mindslicer thumbs its nose at control decks and is a first turn threat with Peat Bog/Dark Ritual. High Market allows sacrificing of creatures in response to dominate effects (limited use, hence only 1, may be better as sideboard).

Guiltfeeder and Necrologia give you late game power if it gets that far, Yawgmoth's Will is one of the most awesome cards of any colour ever made IMHO!

Sideboard has Massacre in case of weenie decks, Perish for big greenies and not a lot else (a 4th Diabolic Edict for Black decks).

Opinions?

[Vindemiatrix]

Yes, in fact. Use Pretender's Claim with Alley Grifters (both Mercadian Masques commons!) to set up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Add Strands of Undeath to make it even nastier. Here's why:


Pretender's Claim * * [1][B]
Enchantment--Aura
Enchant Creature
Whenever enchanted creature becomes blocked, tap all lands defending player controls.


Alley Grifters * * [2][B]
Creature--Mercenary
Whenever Alley Grifters deals combat damage to a player, that player discards a card at random from his or her hand.
2/3 (I think toughness is 3...it might be 2...not sure.)


Strands of Undeath * * [3][B]
Enchantment--Aura
Enchant Creature
[B]: Regenerate enchanted creature.
When Strands of Undeath comes into play, target player discards two cards from his or her hand.


Oh yeah, use Mind Sludge and/or Persecute and/or Honden of Night's Reach, too.

[Ikkitosen]

That's cunning, but too slow for this deck. Heck by turn 3 or 4 I hope to have no cards in hand, and that my opponent won't either from mindslicer! The with a big 5/x creature in play just beatdown before they can get back on track :)

This isn't really a deck that sets up multiple permanent situations that work over many turns.

[reorith]

does anyone play using the apprentice program from magic-league.com?

[Akiosama]

I'm not sure if anyone's really using Apprentice anymore. *A new program came out a while back called MTG Workstation that seemed to work better than Apprentice. *You might check around online and see. *It's a bit better on the GUI and is a little easier to use IMO.

My 2 mana (UU, Time Walk ftw!),

Game on!

Akio

[Hyrael]

Hey, here's an idea: *what kind of player is everyone?
as a reminder, the archtypes are:
Timmy
Jhonny
Spike
Vorthos

I consider myself a spike/Vorthos with a touch of Timmy.

[Vindemiatrix]

I'd consider myself to be a Timmy/Johnny, as I have a Modular-based artifact deck that uses card combos to stomp opponents with artifact creatures that are absolutely pointless to kill...and I don't play type 2. (Arcbound Ravager! Skullclamp! Arcbound Reclaimer! Drafna's Restoration! TINKER! DARKSTEEL COLOSSUS! YAY! *;D)

By the way, what's a Vorthos? I've never heard that term before, and I was wondering what it means.

EDIT: Oh. In that case, I guess I'm also a bit of a Vorthos.

[Ebon_Drake]

According to the tests I'm mainly Timmy but with Spike elements. I like playing for fun, using big creatures and spells and playing in multiplayer, but I'm also interested in winning, to the point of having a couple of decks my friends refuse to play against because they are so powerful. But for them, I'll just use my dragon deck or my Kavu deck.


A Vorthos was created by Matt Cavotta (the Magic artist, member of the Creative Team and Mtg.com columnist,) whereas the other three were made by Mark Rosewater, the head of Magic R&D. It is someone who enjoys Magic's flavour, art, storyline and other things not strictly related to the game. When they do play they'll stereotypically do things like only include one copy of a legendary card, make theme decks with every card that makes up the Legacy Weapon, or making a pair of decks based around the Cabal and the Order and have them duke it out.

Linkage of doom: the current test with explanations of the profiles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr220),
the original test for older players (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11) and
What is a Vorthos? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc2)

[tgva8889]

I am a Johnny, all the way. Combo-tastical. I have generated 20 saprolings and swung for the win, and created Auratouched Mage tokens so many times I deserve to die.

Also, I created a Spirit deck with Theif of Hope and some small guys, plus Death Denied. My opponents loose life-tastical!

Also, I qualified for the Junior Super Series Championships. Woot, I am happy!

Gotta love this game.

As for your Black deck, Ikkitosen, I wonder if you could get your hands on Hypnotic Specters. Those tend to be very, very good for black decks. Also, maybe Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena would help you out. Nekrataal doubles as creature removal and a 2/1 first striker!

Spells, spells, spells...Crainal Extraction comes to mind here.

As for removing threats, can't go wrong with good ol' Dark Banishing. Actually, you can...but that's beside the point. But your removal is pretty good. Chainer's Edict might also prove useful. Innocent Blood may also be good.

I'm assuming you can access these cards. Looks like a good deck, but seems a bit mixed up. Maybe focus on one thing at at time. For example, killing opposing creatures while screwing with your opponent's hand and playing one big creature to win it all. Maybe Mindslicer and Guiltfeeder fit in with this one. Or, swarm with creatures, removing some of your dicard to make way for more and better creatures. Throw in some more kill, possibly, as creatures tend to fight other creatures, so spell support always helps.

Good idea for a deck though. I like it, as I haven't seen a good number of these cards in a while. Also, you may have to use The WotC Gatherer to search up some of those cards I mentioned.

[Ikkitosen]

Thanks for the critique :)

I looked up some of those cards, and here goes:

As for your Black deck, Ikkitosen, I wonder if you could get your hands on Hypnotic Specters. Those tend to be very, very good for black decks.
I agree, they are, but the whole idea of this deck is the quick kill, not the lockdown. Their power of 2 doesn't cut it for 4 mana - I want power 5 for 3 mana :) Same goes for Nekrataal, great though he is.

Also, maybe Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena would help you out.
I have seriously considered Phyrexian Arena - if I had a couple they might go in. As is the Necrologia does the job, and with Vampiric Tutor gives me a quick fix of cards.

Spells, spells, spells...Crainal Extraction comes to mind here.[\quote]
This card is ridiculously awesome, but I have none. I would probably replace the Persecutes if/when I get hold of some - thanks for the tip!

[quote]As for removing threats, can't go wrong with good ol' Dark Banishing. Actually, you can...but that's beside the point. But your removal is pretty good. Chainer's Edict might also prove useful. Innocent Blood may also be good.
Chainer's Edict is too slow for me, and with the creatures I have that require the sacrifice of permanents I will rarely have the flashback cost available. Innocent blood is a great card, and I'll get 4 of those for the sideboard especially for other Black decks.

I only recently acquired the Drinkers of Sorrow, but they seem to work ok. They replaced 4 Skittering Horrors, which are good but lack the 5ish turn kill ability I'm going for.

Cheers!

[Malachi, the Lich King]

Linkage of doom: the current test with explanations of the profiles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr220),
the original test for older players (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr11) and
What is a Vorthos? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mc2)

Hmm. Johnny/Spike. I had to go back and take the test for Odyssey though as I didn't know any of the Ravnica cards.

[Vindemiatrix]

@ Ikkitosen:

If you're considering using Phyrexian Arenas, why not go all the way instead and use Necropotence? Or, for that bizzare flair, how 'bout Necro-Impotence? ;D

[tgva8889]

Uh...Hypnotic Specter costs only 2 black and 1 colorless mana. That's 3. Besides, how can you beat a turn 1 Hypnotic Specter? How good would that be?

If your deck is focused on the beatdown, then Dark Confidant becomes even better. This deck looks a lot like a suicide black-ish deck. Also, can't you sacrifice your Confidant and Arena to Negator or Drinker of Sorrows? Seems pretty good to me, when you need some life and don't want to kill yourself.

As for more beatdown, Hand of Cruelty might be useful. I don't know if you like him, but Black Knight may also be good. In fact, a lot of the black Knights would be good probably. Their names dodge me at this moment.

Since so many of your cards are going to the graveyard, maybe something that uses the graveyard would help you out? Some good Threshold cards might help you out, but I see Mortivore being good in your deck.

Also remember, Innocent Blood can be played when you have no creatures, and at that point, you won't have to sacrifice any.

As for Necropotence, that card is banned in Type 1.5, Restricted to 1 copy in Type 1, and basically unplayable anywhere else. Casual players will probably hate you for using it. Necro-impotence is an Unhinged card, so that's also basically unusable. Arenas are easier to find, as they have been printed in 8th edition and apocalypse, as well as 9th edition (I think), so finding those can't be too great of a challenge.

Also, doesn't Peat Bog come into play tapped? If not, well then I am wrong.

Again, Black Beatdown is a good idea, but I think that if your creatures were just a bit cheaper, or maybe you had some smaller ones so they didn't all cost 3 or more, you'd be in a slightly better position. I wonder how good it would be to get 1st turn Hypnotic Specter, second turn Confidant, third turn Negator. Boo ya, beatdown-a licious!

[Ikkitosen]

Uh...Hypnotic Specter costs only 2 black and 1 colorless mana. That's 3. Besides, how can you beat a turn 1 Hypnotic Specter? How good would that be?

Very good indeed, but would take too many turns to kill my opponent. Disruption is great, and indeed one of the strengths of the deck, but I'd rather play Mindslicer for that. Plus my turn one creatures are currently power 5 :)

If your deck is focused on the beatdown, then Dark Confidant becomes even better. This deck looks a lot like a suicide black-ish deck. Also, can't you sacrifice your Confidant and Arena to Negator or Drinker of Sorrows? Seems pretty good to me, when you need some life and don't want to kill yourself.

That does indeed sound better than I had imagined - I'm just bothered by the thought of drawing a 5 mana card and losing 1/4 of my life! Still, the Confidant is seeing a lot of play I think, so must be better than I'm imagining.

As for more beatdown, Hand of Cruelty might be useful. I don't know if you like him, but Black Knight may also be good. In fact, a lot of the black Knights would be good probably. Their names dodge me at this moment.

Sucky power - leaves my opponent too much time to work his mojo.

Since so many of your cards are going to the graveyard, maybe something that uses the graveyard would help you out? Some good Threshold cards might help you out, but I see Mortivore being good in your deck.

Threshold is a great ability, but what with all the sacrificing and peat bogs I would rarely have enough mana to use them. Plus I have Yawgmoth's Will!

Also remember, Innocent Blood can be played when you have no creatures, and at that point, you won't have to sacrifice any.

But to me it's not as good as vendetta or diabolic edict.

As for Necropotence, that card is banned in Type 1.5, Restricted to 1 copy in Type 1, and basically unplayable anywhere else. Casual players will probably hate you for using it. Necro-impotence is an Unhinged card, so that's also basically unusable. Arenas are easier to find, as they have been printed in 8th edition and apocalypse, as well as 9th edition (I think), so finding those can't be too great of a challenge.[\quote]

I agree.

[quote]Also, doesn't Peat Bog come into play tapped? If not, well then I am wrong.[\quote]

Lol, I've had that card so long I'd completely forgotten that! Still, it's all good.

[quote]Again, Black Beatdown is a good idea, but I think that if your creatures were just a bit cheaper, or maybe you had some smaller ones so they didn't all cost 3 or more, you'd be in a slightly better position. I wonder how good it would be to get 1st turn Hypnotic Specter, second turn Confidant, third turn Negator. Boo ya, beatdown-a licious!

Not as good as 1st turn Negator in my opinion :) Then duress, unmask, whatever plus cheap killers for anything they manage to get in.

So, I'm thinking of maybe getting Phyrexian Arena and Dark Confidant. The main thing is not to slow the deck down one iota - speed is strength.

[tgva8889]

My only thing against turn one Negator is Shock. I mean, that sucks.

Ok, that's all I have to say on your black deck. The Confidant is pretty good, and if you remove your Guildfeeder for something that doesn't cost 5, then that solves that problem. And you are sacrificing a lot of permanents, so you can sacrifice it if your life gets low. Remember, the more cards you have, the more cards you can play ;)

[Vindemiatrix]

If you can manage to sneak in a little green, Savra's a good pick for saccing creatures.

P.S.: Please obey the three-post rule. Violators will be disintegrated and fined. *>:(

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you, just in case you didn't look at my Izzet deck suggestions a while back. I DON'T CARE ABOUT TYPE TWO, NOR DO I CARE IF ANY GIVEN CARD I PLAY IS BANNED. I USE SKULLCLAMPS, TINKERS, DRAFNA'S RESTORATIONS, AND GAEA'S CRADLES. FREELY. I ALSO DO NOT HESITATE TO USE UNGLUED/UNHINGED CARDS IF SAID CARDS WOULD MAKE MY DECKS BETTER. So please don't complain to me if any of my suggestions aren't Type II. Have a nice day. ;)

[Akiosama]

How about adding the Power Nine and Tolarian Academy, then? And Fact or Fiction will help most decks, as well.

Those aren't Type II, and will make the deck considerably better...

Just a thought.

Game on!

Akio

[Marak_Knight]

Just to completely side track the conversation :P

i was wondering how many people had had a chance to play the new Dissension set yet and if so what they thought of the Ravnica block overall?

[sommner42]

172% Johnny.
Just to completely side track the conversation :P

i was wondering how many people had had a chance to play the new Dissension set yet and if so what they thought of the Ravnica block overall?
I was at the prerelese, and Ive seen most of the cards (thank you Gatherer.
R/B: We might be seeing a lot of this guild soon. Its fast, witch fits the meta right now (I think), its simple, and it has a few options. Control, Aggro, but no Combo :(.
G/U: I don't know. Lots of Control/Combo options. I think I might play this, when it comes out on the 5th.
W/U: Control, Control, Control. It really helps WUC (White/Blue Control, instead of MUC, Mono-Blue Control). I think we will be seeing a lot of this also.

[tgva8889]

Just to completely side track the conversation :P

i was wondering how many people had had a chance to play the new Dissension set yet and if so what they thought of the Ravnica block overall?

I've found that the Simic (or U/G) guild has a ridiculas beatdown engine as well. Think...Doubling Season + Graft. Doubley good!

Also, Azorius made me think of a flying beatdown deck as well. Pride of the Clouds, Firstwing, and a bunch of other good flyers. Not bad, I think.

Simic is my favorite guild, so I'm all for them. Azorius has some good options though. Rakdos seems to destructive for me. Self-destructive, I mean.

[Marak_Knight]

The thing i find with Rakdos is while theyre very very good in draft, winning all 3 of the guildpact drafts we've played so far, i dont think the Hellbent mechanic lends itself to constructed very well, particularly type 2. Most type 2 players i know hate having to go into topdeck mode, which is pretty much what hellbent forces you to do most of the time.

Simic is very combo orientated wth the way their graft mechanic works but they seem to be a bit vulnerable to spot removal of certain creatures, such as Sporeback Troll and Aquastrand Spider. i think the Simic Guildmage is going to be vital to any deck that depends on graft as he is the only way i can see of moving counters around once the creature actually hits play.

Azorius is fairly simple, flyers and control. Solid guildmage and some brutal flyers but im not too sure how good forecast is. Minister Of Impediments and Sky Hussar are going to feature heavily in most azorius decks, possibly also Azorius Firstwing.

[The_Glyphstone]

Simic Guildmage will indeed be crucial in a graft-oriented deck. Not only can he shift counters, he can also shift Auras - such as the one that renders that creature immune to spells or abilities cast by opponents. At instant speed, as long as you have mana open, that's excellent protection for those weak point critters mentioned above.

Personally, I absolutely fell in love with Dovescape the day it was previewed. It was the key missing component in a deck I had been trying to perfect for some time; cored around the Epic spell Enduring Ideal, and using Mirror Gallery to support multiple copies of the Red and White Hondens for mass burn and life gain, all the while hiding behind a Meishin the Mind Cage or two. The deck's only huge weak point, with Privileged Position, was mass enchantment removal such as Tempest of Light and Tranquility...Dovescape solved 90% of that.

[Alarra]

My opinions on the new dissension stuff: Raknos....seems cool and I can imagine this being a very nice deck for some, I just like having a hand too much to take advatage of all the hellbent. Azorius...I really like, I think white blue can be a pretty powerful combination. I don't remember what the other guild is that came out, because I haven't played them.

I've been playing a black/white deck lately. They're mainly focused on creature destruction and direct damage (mainly focusing on things like hissing miasmas, consume spirit, faith's fetters, pillory, last gasp, poisonbelly ogre, etc.) Since my most frequent opponent has been playing a green/white token deck, it's been working really well, and it rocks at multiplayer and really makes people angry.

[The_Glyphstone]

it's been working really well, and it rocks at multiplayer and really makes people angry.

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about...my Enduring Ideal deck is universally hated in multiplayer games. With Dovescape, nobody can ever play noncreature spells, and Meishin the Mind Cage makes everything (eventually) -7/-0...-14/-0 if I pull the second one with Mirror Gallery on the field. No one can attack, no one can play any other spells...all the while I beat on them with red Hondens. I'm 90% of the time the first player to be wiped out by combined attacks...and fast, I can get the Ideal going by turn 4.

[tgva8889]

I hope you realize that once you get Dovescape, it counters all the rest of your Enduring Ideals for the rest of the game. But you do get lots of birds!

Edit: My bad, the ideal doesn't get countered. But I'd still rather have the birds.

I like Humility + Night of Souls Betrayal + Dovescape. At this point, I think you losing will be really hard to pull off. With this type of deck, you should have a way to win (Demonfire, anyone?)

For Reference:
Humility
WW3
Enchantment
All creatures are 1/1 with no abilities.

Night of Soul's Betrayal
BB2
Legendary Enchantment
All creatures get -1/-1.

[Marak_Knight]

Im not 100% sure on this but i dont think Dovescape would counter an Epic as long as it wasnt active when the Epic spell was origionally cast. Epic doesnt actually cast a spell it merely copies the origional spells effect so i think it would still work. I'll have to check Dovescapes wording to be sure though.

[The_Glyphstone]

I like Humility + Night of Souls Betrayal + Dovescape. At this point, I think you losing will be really hard to pull off. With this type of deck, you should have a way to win (Demonfire, anyone?)

For Reference:
Humility
WW3
Enchantment
All creatures are 1/1 with no abilities.

Night of Soul's Betrayal
BB2
Legendary Enchantment
All creatures get -1/-1.

Humility = OMG!!111!!...I am so adding that in for non-Standard play. I have a NoSB...never considered using it before in that deck - too much other good stuff. But that's a good idea...

And Dovescape does not counter Epic - specifically covered in one of their weekly FAQ's. The Epic ability is not played, it goes directly on the stack, thus can't be countered. it's logical, too - the very definition of Epic is that you can't play any more spells, so the copies would not be played themselves.

[tgva8889]

With Humility, Night of Souls Betrayal, Dovescape, and basically any damage-dealing weapon, you can't lose.

[Kish]

Hm. Protection from either black or white would keep creatures in play with Humility and Night of Soul's Betrayal, wouldn't it?

[tgva8889]

No for two reasons:

1. Protection only protects against the following things:
Damage from sources
Being targeted by spells or abilities from sources
Being blocked by sources
Being enchanted by sources
None of the following of which Humilty nor Night do.

2. Humility would cause all creatures to lose protection and become 1/1 creatures. So it wouldn't matter.

Protection is confusing, so I don't blame you for believing that. I think it's kinda stupid also.

[Marak_Knight]

the only thing i can think of it wouldnt work on is

Azorius Firstwing
WU
2/2
Flying
Protection from Enchantments

And even then it would depend on how protection works against 'when you play a spell' type effects. I'm guessing it would be safe if it was already in play but i dont know what would happen if the combo was already on the board when the Firstwing was played.

[Alarra]

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about...my Enduring Ideal deck is universally hated in multiplayer games.

What my deck does is get things like Hissing Miasmas out to keep people from attacking me. Or poisonbelly ogre to make them lose life to put out creatures. ( I don't need to put out creatures) This gets me into the last 2. By that time I should have enough mana built up to consume spirit them out in one turn, or at the very least have built my life up to 30 or so through various white enchantments. =)

[The_Glyphstone]

the only thing i can think of it wouldnt work on is

Azorius Firstwing
WU
2/2
Flying
Protection from Enchantments

And even then it would depend on how protection works against 'when you play a spell' type effects. *I'm guessing it would be safe if it was already in play but i dont know what would happen