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View Full Version : Good spells for Arcane Thesis and other wizarding questions (3.5)



Shenanigans
2010-10-06, 11:18 AM
So I'm in the initial stages of planning a wizard for a new campaign. It's Forgotten Realms, and legal books will (most likely) be Core, all Complete, all Races, PHB2, the environment books, and all Forgotten Realms books. Incantatrix has already been specially banned, as has ToB, MoI, Psionics, and other setting-specific stuff. Other books (like Drow of the Underdark, Heroes of Horror) will probably be legal, but the DM isn't positive yet.

I foresee myself repeating the above paragraph in future posts. :)

In any case, I've pretty much decided on either a Diviner or Conjurer. I'm tempted to go Focused Specialist, but it's been a while since I've played a wizard and want to stay close-ish to a generalist.

I'll post more later about the potential builds in general, but my main question now is this: What are good spells to choose for Arcane Thesis? Metamagic feats on my potential list so far include Split Ray, Chain, Empower, Quicken and possibly Maximize and Twin.

I've read enough guides (thanks TLN and TreantMonk) to realize Enervation is a nice option, and Disintegrate seems pretty ripe for Thesis also, although potentially too high of level. Are any other ray spells worth the feat, or anything else I might be forgetting? Dimension Door maybe?

Thanks!

Zaydos
2010-10-06, 11:22 AM
Orb of Fire if you can get Searing Spell is fairly classic. Same level as Enervation, good damage, and nice little secondary save or be dazed. Searing Spell means it deals half damage to fire elementals and other fire immune creatures. Can't be split, though, as it's a ranged touch not a ray.

Scorching Ray too. It's level 2, so you can lay on metamagic thick; but you only add +33% damage by splitting it as it is actually 3 rays.

Both are, of course, much better with Incanatrix, but unfortunately that's banned.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-10-06, 11:26 AM
The orb of X spells from Complete Arcane/Spell Compendium are all solid choices. Disintegrate is a trap, though, as anything with a good fort save will minimize its effect. Enervation is always good, too.

Duke of URL
2010-10-06, 11:34 AM
Well, there's the humble magic missile if you want to go Force Missile Mage. Seriously, think of 9 levels of spell slots filled with metamagiced magic missiles.

But really, any spell can make Arcane Thesis useful as long as it is a) useful in a wide range of situations and b) good with metamagic. Enervation, of course, is great against living creatures (not so good against undead and constructs). Any no-save, no-SR spell is also an excellent choice (i.e., orb of X), especially if you pick up Energy Substitution (and later Energy Admixture) so that you can avoid being hosed against creatures immune to a specific energy type.

While not optimal, I find that a chained, twinned feeblemind can change the battlefield in a hurry.

Ernir
2010-10-06, 11:37 AM
Try to get Ocular Spell from Lords of Madness, makes a whole lot of stuff that previously wasn't Split Ray-able (along with other... nasty consequences, but that's not what you are interested in right now). Like the Orbs.

Combust (SpC) makes a good metamagic base when your CL isn't high enough to make full use of the orbs' higher cap.

Orb of Force if you are paranoid about your DM throwing out enemies with Mettle and juiced-up Fort saves (which makes Orb of Fire sad), maybe.

lsfreak
2010-10-06, 11:40 AM
Orb of X, enervation, and magic missile are all good metamagic bases. I don't particularly like scorching ray because of the impact of energy resistance starting around 10th level. Combustion is great with reach spell or similar. Chain missile is a good base if you're primarily doing a debuffer; feldraining felweakening coercive chain missile followed by a different debuff is pretty nasty.

Wings of Peace
2010-10-06, 12:20 PM
If you're stacking meta-magics I'd recommend taking Magical Training and having it treat you as a sorcerer in order to allow yourself to take Practical Metamagic from Races of the Dragon.

Emmerask
2010-10-06, 12:37 PM
Orb of X, enervation, and magic missile are all good metamagic bases. I don't particularly like scorching ray because of the impact of energy resistance starting around 10th level. Combustion is great with reach spell or similar. Chain missile is a good base if you're primarily doing a debuffer; feldraining felweakening coercive chain missile followed by a different debuff is pretty nasty.

I wouldn´t say that magic missile is such a good base for metamagic seeing that the shield spell/potion/item will completely negate it.

Orb of force would be my spell of choice.

Il_Vec
2010-10-06, 12:53 PM
Currently my Ultimate Magus has Thesis on Enervation and Ray of Stupidity. Residual Magic from Complete Mage is very useful.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 12:55 PM
I wouldn´t say that magic missile is such a good base for metamagic seeing that the shield spell/potion/item will completely negate it.

Orb of force would be my spell of choice.

It makes Force Missile Mage a requirement. And probably a base of warmage, for warmage edge. Negates the "hah, immune to magic missle" factor, and increases the cap of the missiles the spell produces. Very necessary.

Still, I don't see magic missile as the ideal basis. Damage scaling is low. Even with edge, it's still sub-par to most damage spells.

Shenanigans
2010-10-06, 01:00 PM
Well Enervation seems like a good choice because it's low-level enough to leave lots of metamagic options. One of the orbs (force? sonic?) might be good, if only to cover constructs and undead, but Arcane Thesis might not be so necessary for such a situational choice.

Disintegrate does allow SR and a Fort Save, but I like its untyped damage, effectiveness against objects/force effects, and synergy with Split Ray, Empower, and even Chain. Disintegrate is also high on my list of anti-undead spells, as their Fort saves tend to be poor-ish and it also affects objects.

Other than Combustion, which I will check out, are there any spells that would be fun with Reach Spell? I think I might wait (a long time I realize) for Arcane Reach though.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 01:05 PM
One of the more amusing Metamagic/Arcane Thesis builds is Sonic Snap. Lower level than many builds, but despite the low damage, it's an autohit with no save, as a cantrip. This allows a great deal of fun with metamagic much earlier than usual. Fell Drain is a favorite, but other "effect on damage" metamagics are excellent too. Snowcasting/frost flash are doable for straight damage increase, but thats not generally efficient.

Jarian
2010-10-06, 01:13 PM
The ever-popular Wings of Flurry is a prime candidate for Arcane Thesis. Uncapped d6/CL force damage in a huge area, and it doesn't target your allies. Even better, it forces a reflex save or they're stunned for a round. Simply stack on a few +0 metamagics (Invisible Spell, Cooperative Spell, Energy Substitution) and you can Quicken it for free. Two reflex saves per round to pretty much every enemy you're facing, in addition to rating "not bad" as a blasting spell. It's definitely one of my favorites.

Edit: Yes, it's a Sorcerer spell. No, that doesn't mean you can't have it on a Wizard. It just depends on whether or not you want to invest the money to get it, or how underhanded you feel like playing with WotC's wording on certain spells.

Zaydos
2010-10-06, 01:22 PM
Also it's not eligible for Energy Substitution since it doesn't have an energy descriptor. Force is not an energy type, which means you can't double the damage with Energy Admixture either.

Ormur
2010-10-06, 01:23 PM
An interesting choice for reach spell, or better arcane reach, is Otto's Irresistible Dance. Guaranteed to give you a few rounds if the enemy isn't immune.

I've had a bit of trouble finding touch spells myself but those I know of are:

Spectral Touch: level 6, which bestows a negative level per round on a melee touch attack, more like a gish buff though.
Vulnerability: level 5, lowers damage reduction on a will save.
Night's Caress: level 5, deals a bit of damage plus con damage on a failed fort save, also evil.
Backlash: level 4, prevents a caster from casting their next spells on a will save and does a bit of damage.
Vulnerability: level 5, lowers damage reduction on a will save.
Corporeal Instability: level 4, turn them into goo but sadly with a fort save.
Bestow Curse: level 4, works of course.

I don't think any of them scale very well for use on higher levels with reach spell or arcane reach.

Duke of URL
2010-10-06, 01:27 PM
Still, I don't see magic missile as the ideal basis. Damage scaling is low. Even with edge, it's still sub-par to most damage spells.

I doubt it's ideal, but it could be quite fun. Besides, it's such a low-level spell that you can easily quicken it (especially at +3, or lower if you can find other reducers) and get off two every round. Combine that with the fact that you can spread out targets if you like, you can really use it as a major debuff.

Start out a round with a quickened fell drain magic missile (5th level slot), splitting it to 5 (7, with FMM) different targets, then follow up on the primary target with a twinned maximized fell drain (7th level slot) magic missile (56 hp damage plus two negative levels [which includes another 10 hp lost]).

On the whole, I like spontaneous casters better for FMM than Wizards, because the ability to apply the exact right metamagic on the fly is just too much fun. The only problem is that the best class combo I can imagine for this is (base) / FMM 5 / Incantatrix 10 -- the problem is that with a spontaneous caster like Warmage or Sorcerer, you can't qualify for either FMM or Incantatrix until after level 6, which means losing one level of one of the PrCs.

If there was some way to loosen the PrCs pre-reqs (say, drop the skill rank requirements for FMM to 8, not 9), then Warmage 5 / FMM 5 / Icx 10 would be simply fun to play, if not necessarily the most optimal character ever built.

lsfreak
2010-10-06, 01:28 PM
Edit: Yes, it's a Sorcerer spell. No, that doesn't mean you can't have it on a Wizard. It just depends on whether or not you want to invest the money to get it, or how underhanded you feel like playing with WotC's wording on certain spells.

Or, you could just play a metamagic sorcerer. Rapid Metamagic (available at 9th level, when metamagic really starts coming into play) removes the restrictions on metamagic that spontaneous casters have, and before that, you can trade your familiar for 3+Int no-cast-increase metamagics a day. I tend to prefer single-target spells, and with wings of flurry you're letting yourself get awfully close to the middle of combat in order to get it off.

Eloel
2010-10-06, 01:49 PM
I'll second Wings of Flurry.

1- Read Wings of Flurry.
2- Read Spellwarp Sniper's 'area to ray' (can't remember the name) ability.
3- Reread Wings of Flurry.
4- Now, go cast (Greater) Arcane Fusion, with Metamagick'd Wings of Flurry & True Strike.
5- ???
6- Auto-Win. (or if you want to go that route: PROFIT!)

Dr Bwaa
2010-10-06, 03:16 PM
*magic missile stuff*

You're thinking too small! Try something more along the lines of 196 (http://www.crystalkeep.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3455&sid=cd4439c5b1cd7eb68c06f37a96a1a19b) missiles every round, and 28 negative levels to each of up to seven enemies--also per round. With no save. No extra charge for the vieux boulogne!

SurlySeraph
2010-10-06, 03:21 PM
Spectral Touch: level 6, which bestows a negative level per round on a melee touch attack, more like a gish buff though.

Fell Drain Chill Touch = Spectral Touch in a much lower slot.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-06, 03:26 PM
You're thinking too small! Try something more along the lines of 196 (http://www.crystalkeep.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3455&sid=cd4439c5b1cd7eb68c06f37a96a1a19b) missiles every round, and 28 negative levels to each of up to seven enemies--also per round. With no save. No extra charge for the vieux boulogne!

The key to that is twinned, repeating fell drain. All the damage is mostly irrelevant against most targets, as 4 negative levels per target is rather nasty. Per cast. The Spell Weaver portion, which gets you the six normal spells per round, is rather unlikely to be allowed in practical play.

A more likely option would be grabbing a belt of battle and/or quicken for more casting goodness. 8 negative levels per target may not be an instant kill, but it will make them mostly harmless.

Technically, if you have celerity, you can use it immediately after your first round for additional missiles.

Shenanigans
2010-10-06, 03:34 PM
What book is Wings of Flurry in? It sounds intriguing.

I'm probably banning Evocation; I guess I should have mentioned that before.

What about Ray of Enfeeblement? As a level 1, it would seem ripe for uber-metamagic. How well does it scale to upper levels?

Also, I read the errata for Arcane Thesis, but I didn't see anything about a minimum of 1 on the spell slot adjustment. Does this mean I can add 1-level metamagic feats for free?

Jarian
2010-10-06, 03:42 PM
What book is Wings of Flurry in? It sounds intriguing.

Races of the Dragon.


I'm probably banning Evocation; I guess I should have mentioned that before.

+1 vote for Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer on my end, then.


Also, I read the errata for Arcane Thesis, but I didn't see anything about a minimum of 1 on the spell slot adjustment. Does this mean I can add 1-level metamagic feats for free?

The only major thing the errata changed was removing the ability to reduce a spell's level below its normal level. Until you try to do that, any metamagics you apply to the spell are at -1. (So you could quicken something for +3, then Invisible it for -1, Cooperative Spell it for another -1, and end up with a total of a +1 adjustment). So yes, +1 metas become +0 metas for that one spell.

Radar
2010-10-06, 03:47 PM
The key to that is twinned, repeating fell drain. All the damage is mostly irrelevant against most targets, as 4 negative levels per target is rather nasty. Per cast. The Spell Weaver portion, which gets you the six normal spells per round, is rather unlikely to be allowed in practical play.

A more likely option would be grabbing a belt of battle and/or quicken for more casting goodness. 8 negative levels per target may not be an instant kill, but it will make them mostly harmless.

Technically, if you have celerity, you can use it immediately after your first round for additional missiles.
Even better option: be a sorcerer and use Arcane Fusion to throw more Magic Missiles with one action. Add in Arcane Spellsurge and make the Quicken Spell feat hide in shame. :smallbiggrin:

Shenanigans
2010-10-06, 04:07 PM
+1 vote for Metamagic Specialist Sorcerer on my end, then.

The only major thing the errata changed was removing the ability to reduce a spell's level below its normal level. Until you try to do that, any metamagics you apply to the spell are at -1. (So you could quicken something for +3, then Invisible it for -1, Cooperative Spell it for another -1, and end up with a total of a +1 adjustment). So yes, +1 metas become +0 metas for that one spell.Thank you for the clarification. I'm guessing my DM is not going to allow a -1 adjustment, despite that seeming to be a very rational RAW reading of the feat, for purposes of balance.

Also, the Metamagic Sorceror seems very cool, but I'm set on being a wizard, more specifically a Diviner or Conjurer. If I go Diviner (banning Evocation), I'm thinking

Diviner 5/Master Specialist 3/Loremaster ?/Something Else ?/Archmage 5

and I'm not sure what ACF/variants, if any. If I go with Conjurer (banning Evocation and probably Enchantment), I'd go

Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5

and I'd probably try to fit in Diversified Casting for a couple enchantment spells (Otto's Irresistable Dance, Dominate Monster) or, if I go Focused Specialist (banning Evocation, Enchantment, and probably Illusion)

Conjurer 5/Master Specialist 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Archmage 5

Either Conjurer build would probably use Abrupt Jaunt as well.

Any more thoughts?

Jarian
2010-10-06, 04:10 PM
Thank you for the clarification. I'm guessing my DM is not going to allow a -1 adjustment, despite that seeming to be a very rational RAW reading of the feat, for purposes of balance.

Interesting choice on his part if so, then. There many worse things you can do with four feats than getting a second, essentially unmodified, spell off in a round. Oh well.

Arcane Thesis becomes less impressive by far if you can't use +0 metamagics with it.

Edit: Compare Thesis with Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon), for instance. Huge difference in wording.

Emmerask
2010-10-06, 04:53 PM
Interesting choice on his part if so, then. There many worse things you can do with four feats than getting a second, essentially unmodified, spell off in a round. Oh well.

All groups I play with or dm for handle it the same way.

Shenanigans
2010-10-06, 08:27 PM
Interesting choice on his part if so, then. There many worse things you can do with four feats than getting a second, essentially unmodified, spell off in a round. Oh well.

Arcane Thesis becomes less impressive by far if you can't use +0 metamagics with it.

Edit: Compare Thesis with Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon), for instance. Huge difference in wording.
I really do understand your point; I'm not even sure he'll use that interpretation, but the way he's been trying to balance things (e.g. not allowing Incantatrix, limiting book selection) it just seems to be the way he'd rule.

That said, I still think Arcane Thesis for one or maybe two spells is definitely worth a shot.

Eloel
2010-10-07, 02:49 AM
Interesting choice on his part if so, then. There many worse things you can do with four feats than getting a second, essentially unmodified, spell off in a round. Oh well.


When you realize how many +0 metamagics there are, you wouldn't be surprised at that.
Really though, Twinned Repeating Quickened Fell Drain Maximized Empowered Magic Missiles out of 1st level slots? You stop needing any other slots. (if you're a FMM that is)

Shenanigans
2010-10-07, 08:26 AM
Really though, Twinned Repeating Quickened Fell Drain Maximized Empowered Magic Missiles out of 1st level slots? You stop needing any other slots. (if you're a FMM that is)
Yeah, something along these lines is exactly why I'm thinking the DM won't be all about allowing that.

Fouredged Sword
2010-10-07, 11:25 AM
The other option to get around the shield spell is ardent savant (i think that is right). It grants the ability to rip force effects off of foes causeing an explosion and dispelling the effect. Shield is a force effect, ie shield can be dispelled easily. The rest of the class works well with force damage spells anyway.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-07, 12:16 PM
Technically, the capstone of Iot7V is another great way to remove buffs.

Of course, after it goes off, the target is usually a smoking hole, so further spellcasting is generally unnecessary, but in theory, yes, it could be used to debuff prior to this.

Shenanigans
2010-10-08, 08:26 AM
Technically, the capstone of Iot7V is another great way to remove buffs.

Of course, after it goes off, the target is usually a smoking hole, so further spellcasting is generally unnecessary, but in theory, yes, it could be used to debuff prior to this.
Well you are technically correct, which is often the best kind of correct.

I don't think I'm going to run with Magic Missile. I do enjoy the spell and it's prime for much metamagic, but I do plan on banning evocation and I think enervation will get me more mileage.