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View Full Version : Is this 3rd-party class feature as ridiculously OP as I think?



Kaje
2010-10-07, 12:34 AM
The Spellslinger campaign setting for 3.5 features a number of "brands," essentially one-level classes that can only be taken at character level one. One of them is an anti-magic class that has Spell Resistance equal to 15 + Character Level.

Now, my D&D knowledge is mostly theoretical, and crunch has never been my strong suit, but... is this as ridiculous as it seems to me?

PS: Every class in this setting has some special ability that can only be gained if taken at first char level, but none seem as huge as this one.

Dracons
2010-10-07, 12:49 AM
Eh, it's a little OP, but not much. I mean, Drow get spell resistance of 11+ level, and they are a +2 race, (But they also get other abilities and great abilities mods)

Another_Poet
2010-10-07, 12:52 AM
Although it is unusual at Level 1, no, I would not call it terribly overpowered. Certainly not if there are no other class features.

I think 10+level would be more balanced but 15 is not crazy. Think of it this way... many spells, and all supernatural & extraordinary abilities still get through. The enemy can make a CL check to get anything else through. Enemy casters are rarely the same level as the party because they are often "bosses" so let's assume a typical one is at APL+3. They need to roll a 12 to succeed at bypassing spell resistance. Big whoop.

I agree it is strong (and unusual) at L1 but by no means game-breaking. The character will enjoy shrugging some magic abilities 60% of the time, and have little else to contribute beyond their BAB and skill rolls.

Eldariel
2010-10-07, 12:56 AM
Never forget the drawback of it stopping beneficial spells too unless you take a Standard Action to lower it. Can be quite clutch in combat. So no, definitely not broken. Useful, but not broken. Assay Resistance, True Casting and company exist too. Without those allowed though, it can be a bit strong.

Another_Poet
2010-10-07, 01:00 AM
Never forget the drawback of it stopping beneficial spells too unless you take a Standard Action to lower it.

HOLY CRAP, I hadn't seen that clause! You're right, that is harsh.

15+CL sounds perfect then :)

Thurbane
2010-10-07, 01:40 AM
Depends on your POV - in an "ultimate op" type game, it might be OK. However, it is significantly more powerful than anything official I can think of.


To get a static SR13 on armor is a +2 bonus.
To get SR as a race usually costs about +2 LA, and it's generally only 10 plus level.
To get it as a class feature you need to be 13th level (Monk, again only 10 plus level).


...so the answer really depends on the op-level of your games. I know for a fact it wouldn't fly in any of the games I am involved it. Sure, it has drawbacks, but at low to medium levels, very few spell attacks are going to touch you.

Eldariel
2010-10-07, 01:48 AM
Depends on your POV - in an "ultimate op" type game, it might be OK. However, it is significantly more powerful than anything official I can think of.


To get a static SR13 on armor is a +2 bonus.
To get SR as a race usually costs about +2 LA, and it's generally only 10 plus level.
To get it as a class feature you need to be 13th level (Monk, again only 10 plus level).


...so the answer really depends on the op-level of your games. I know for a fact it wouldn't fly in any of the games I am involved it. Sure, it has drawbacks, but at low to medium levels, very few spell attacks are going to touch you.

All of those are overpriced though (particularly static SR on items - that's horribly, horribly expensive for what it does). The reasonably priced option in Core is the Spell Resistance-spell, which is level 5 and 10 min/level for 12+CL (so about 12-17+character level for usual divine) and thus quite easy to keep up all day on higher levels.

icefractal
2010-10-07, 01:50 AM
To get a static SR13 on armor is a +2 bonus.That armor is known to be overpriced to the point of useless, however.

Official items/classes (especially in core) are not a good price guide for special abilities like SR, Regeneration, or DR - the designers were initially extremely cautious, to the point that most of these are at nigh-useless values/prices. I mean, look at the amount of DR the Barbarian gets, and then look at how much monsters of a given level deal. And the Ring of Regeneration is another known "sucker item".

ffone
2010-10-07, 02:25 AM
If it is balanced, then every LA SR race (i.e., the drow) is horribly over-LAed. Why would anyone play a drow rather than a LA 0 elf (such as a drow without the 2 levels of the racial class) and just take that 'brand'. Sure they get a few other things (Int and Cha bonuses) but for two levels (vs the HD and much higher SR the class gets)...

Also, this SR is even higher compared to the drow's than it looks, because drow SR is based on HD, and a drow is 2 behind due to its LA. Its 11 + CL becomes 9 + ECL, six points behind this guy.

Greenish
2010-10-07, 02:39 AM
If it is balanced, then every LA SR race (i.e., the drow) is horribly over-LAed.I can't think of any race with SR which isn't over-LA'd.

Jade_Tarem
2010-10-07, 02:43 AM
To put it in perspective: A spellcaster with a caster level = to the level of that character will fail to cast a spell on that character 75% of the time, not counting things like Spell Penetration or Assay Resistance. Before saves.

I'm not giving an opinion, just offering that bit of information.

ranagrande
2010-10-07, 02:53 AM
To put it in perspective: A spellcaster with a caster level = to the level of that character will fail to cast a spell on that character 75% of the time, not counting things like Spell Penetration or Assay Resistance. Before saves.

I'm not giving an opinion, just offering that bit of information.
Really, a caster should only fail to land a spell on such a character once. Then they should start using spells that can't be resisted.

Koury
2010-10-07, 04:39 AM
Really, a caster should only fail to land a spell on such a character once. Then they should start using spells that can't be resisted.

This, pretty much. SR: No spells are the way to go if you don't feel like Assay Spell Resistance and it's ilk are worth casting. 15+level SR is not a problem to deal with, really.

AugustNights
2010-10-07, 04:52 AM
I have SpellSlinger, the entire book is absolutely broken, and designed to only exist in its own world. The really OP factor of these classes are the Spellcasting by spending feats. The 'Circles' of magic are absolutely ridiculous.

FelixG
2010-10-07, 04:53 AM
To put it in perspective: A spellcaster with a caster level = to the level of that character will fail to cast a spell on that character 75% of the time, not counting things like Spell Penetration or Assay Resistance. Before saves.

I'm not giving an opinion, just offering that bit of information.

Meaning unless the character spends a standard action his buddies will fail to buff him 75% of the time. :smallbiggrin:

he drops his SR to get buffed and thats when the guy who ignored him with the SR: Yes spells hammers him good before he can bring his shield back up :smallamused:



If it is balanced, then every LA SR race (i.e., the drow) is horribly over-LAed. Why would anyone play a drow rather than a LA 0 elf (such as a drow without the 2 levels of the racial class) and just take that 'brand'. Sure they get a few other things (Int and Cha bonuses) but for two levels (vs the HD and much higher SR the class gets)...


The Drow is over LAed :smallmad: It should be a LA +1 tops thanks to its light blindness.

Psyx
2010-10-07, 04:53 AM
It's not great.

SR is a pain in the backside, as it means that you have to actively lower it for buffs and healing. It's as much a liability as a benefit.

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-07, 05:28 AM
Personally, I've always made SR function only against hostile spells automatically, which makes it actually a useful feature and not a detriment to anyone involved. Seems to work okay.

Though, granted, using that ruling does perhaps make the class feature in the OP rather too good. But if you have to use a Standard action to lower it...

Actually, what DOES happen if you go unconcious with your SR still up? Do you, like bleed to death if no-one can punch through your SR?

FelixG
2010-10-07, 05:29 AM
Personally, I've always made SR function only against hostile spells automatically, which makes it actually a useful feature and not a detriment to anyone involved. Seems to work okay.

Though, granted, using that ruling does perhaps make the class feature in the OP rather too good. But if you have to use a Standard action to lower it...

Actually, what DOES happen if you go unconcious with your SR still up? Do you, like bleed to death if no-one can punch through your SR?

Theres always buckets-o-healing (snicker) and that little heal skill? its only a DC 15 to stop someone from dieing, then you wait for them to wake up and drop their SR so you can fix them the rest of the way

Koury
2010-10-07, 05:35 AM
Personally, I've always made SR function only against hostile spells automatically, which makes it actually a useful feature and not a detriment to anyone involved. Seems to work okay.

And even with this as the case, swift action for Assay SR, and bam, I need a 5 to land my SR: Yes spell. 3 if I have Spell Penetration.

*shrug*

Eldariel
2010-10-07, 09:35 AM
And even with this as the case, swift action for Assay SR, and bam, I need a 5 to land my SR: Yes spell. 3 if I have Spell Penetration.

*shrug*

Depends on if you have caster level boosters. But seriously, starting from Grease there's good offensive spells on each level that do not give SR so it's really not that big a deal.

Diarmuid
2010-10-07, 09:44 AM
I have SpellSlinger, the entire book is absolutely broken, and designed to only exist in its own world. The really OP factor of these classes are the Spellcasting by spending feats. The 'Circles' of magic are absolutely ridiculous.

I think this is probably the best observation so far. The rules there are not intended to be taken out of context and mixed with SRD classes/abilities. It's kind of like how 3.0 OA was very unbalanced with PHB stuff.

Spellslinger is likely intended to be balanced against itself.

Keld Denar
2010-10-07, 12:02 PM
There is a feat in DotU that allows you to lower your SR as an immediate action, IIRC, so that you can benefit from incoming buffs when its not your turn. You'd still have to take action to "raise shields", but its not a bad feat tax for a player who wants the benefits of high SR without the largest drawback.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-07, 12:13 PM
10+level is much more common as a class feature. I suggest that this would be more in line with what is available elsewhere(though yes, it remains unusual for a level 1 character). At that level, it's still useful for some builds, certainly, especially because it scales. Many sources of SR do not scale, and thus eventually become useless.

15+level isn't game breakingly insane, but it is an ability with power above the potential for most level 1 characters to acheive.

Emmerask
2010-10-07, 12:20 PM
And even with this as the case, swift action for Assay SR, and bam, I need a 5 to land my SR: Yes spell. 3 if I have Spell Penetration.

*shrug*

Yes, but still you have used up considerably more resources, resources you might miss the next encounter :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-10-07, 12:34 PM
Yes, but still you have used up considerably more resources, resources you might miss the next encounter :smallwink:Yes, and the unlucky sod you just iced with said resources also spend a level getting that SR you just bypassed.

And how many encounters do NPCs have per day, anyhow?

Koury
2010-10-07, 02:39 PM
Yes, but still you have used up considerably more resources, resources you might miss the next encounter :smallwink:

What? Two spells, instead of one?

Besides, Eldariel is correct about there being more then enough SR: No spells to make that a completely viable method either way.

JustIgnoreMe
2010-10-07, 04:01 PM
I think this is probably the best observation so far. The rules there are not intended to be taken out of context and mixed with SRD classes/abilities. It's kind of like how 3.0 OA was very unbalanced with PHB stuff.

Spellslinger is likely intended to be balanced against itself.
Thirded: Spellslinger is *not* a standard D20 setting, there are only three classes, and skills and magic work very differently (magic is feat based). There is no intent for anything in Spellslinger to be used outside of Spellslinger.

=edit=

And the Blackhand brand also gives any weapon you hold in your black hand the Magekiller quality (goes through magical defences with a contested roll).

ffone
2010-10-07, 05:54 PM
The above posts to the tune of 'SR can be optimized around, so it's not worth that much' are missing a broader point that just because it can be gotten around, doesn't mean it usually will be and is worth nothing:

- You guys are the upper tail of optimization. Balance should work for a 'general' case (as well as be protected against a loopholed/optimized-overpowered case). For most encounters by most DMs involving spell(-like-ability) using enemies, the DM's not going to trick out his NPCs to overcome massive SR. And even if he does, that's an opportunity cost to the NPC.

- SR from a class has another subtle advantage over drow SR - it's metagamey for most NPCs to cast Assay Resistance against a human-nonmonk-looking guy, or favor SR: NO spells when they'd otherwise go with an SR: Yes. Even if the enemy switches to SR: No after the first resisted spell, one resisted spell is a big benefit to the PC, and the NPC may not live another round anyway.

- Lots of monsters have spell-like abilities, with fewer options to optimize them against SR, or the ability to just choose SR: No spell-like abilities.

- Spellcasters can voluntarily lower their caster level for individual spells, I think? So the party casters could nerf their own CL by a little bit when casting area spells that catch the SR guy amidst the enemies.

DnD isn't calibrated around the situation of a DM who's optimizing (and metagaming) the enemies against the PCs' specific abilities. In such a situation, yes, most 'specific' defenses (like poison immunity) won't be worth much.

randomhero00
2010-10-07, 06:10 PM
In my games we also play with SR only affecting hostile spells. I've had 10+level SR (from homebrew, I haven't had to pay the normal ridiculous prices) AND it still isn't overpowered.

Boss casters have always just punched through it or used non-sr spells and mook-casters just haven't mattered, they just get CC'd or go splat anyway. And on top of that we just don't fight/see many casters because they're harder to prepare and run. I have a feeling this is pretty common for most games.

Obviously though it may vary in your game. If you fight spell casters almost every battle and they almost always use SR spells then ya, it might be a lot more useful.

Thurbane
2010-10-07, 06:32 PM
Really, a caster should only fail to land a spell on such a character once. Then they should start using spells that can't be resisted.
Unless it's a monster with SLAs, and then doesn't have that option.

I also disagree that having to lower SR to receive buffs is much of a balancing factor. As noted above, there is a feat that changes this to an immediate action. Also, majority of buffs are minutes/level, 10 minutes/level or 1 hour/level, so they don't need to be done "in combat". My 2 cents anyway...it's worth noting that I play in a fairly low-op group.