tome of magic shadow

[awa]

so no one likes true namer. some people like binder. I don't think i have ever heard any one mention the shadow thing either good or bad.
so how is it?
whats good about it whats bad.
what role does it fulfill if any.
where would you place it in the tier system

[Greenish]

From what I gather, it's decent, but has too few uses of the… mysteries, I think they were called. There are a bunch of fixes floating around, one by it's original author, so it seems to need some love.

[Zaydos]

It doesn't match up to a sorcerer/wizard in power due to low spells per day, and has really restricted spells known progression (they have to learn them in paths and have to have the weaker spells in a path to get the stronger). Normally they end up as worse sorc/wiz.

The creator's fix removes the requirement of learning a path in order, changes how they get bonus feats, and gives them bonus spells for high stats.

[Gensh]

I haven't actually played it, but what it looks like is that it's a strict nerf in comparison to normal casting. Not only do you have even fewer "spells" known than a sorcerer, but you also are able to cast far fewer of them, you have a split casting stat like favored soul, and frankly, a lot of the mysteries just aren't that useful. All of this is apparently justified by ignoring spell resistance. Also, while the creator's fix improves it, it also sort of defeats part of the purpose in playing a shadowcaster anyway. A lot of times, it gets ignored by the community, but a while ago, Realms of Chaos did a bunch of material (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519) for it.

[awa]

how does it compare to non casters worse than a wizard still has a lot of wiggle room

[Zaydos]

Never played one. Personally I'd say that the tier 3 fixed list casters are probably stronger, but what Shadowcaster can do is nova. Their meta-shadow feats are like Sudden Metamagic but usable X/day. Several Mysteries are also equal level spells with stuff added to them. So while their low spells per day mean you will always be tight on your highest level spells (1 to 6 spells of your highest 3 levels max) you have some bang for your buck with them.

Like I said never played one but I'd guess they'd be pretty balanced with non-casters.

[Starbuck_II]

Well, the Shadow cater have Improved Displacement: Dancing Shadows.
You ask: how is it an improvement?

Displacement allows targeting (making it not a true full concealment).
Dancing Shadows doesn't allow targeting (true total Concealment). Basically Greater Invisibility.

But you have limited/useage a day.
So you'll have to stock up on scrolls, wands, Peals of power, etc of your spells. Yes, they exist for Shadowcasters.

[Lans]

Shadow casters get stronger as they go on, probably from being below warmage to below dreadnecro/Beguiler. So your looking at low tier 4 to low-mid tier 3 as it levels up. Level 7 is the major breaking point. Keep in mine that many of there spells are more powerful than the arcane divine version, but with fewer uses and no analogs to the more broken spells it balances out.

[Aharon]

Many Mysteries are stronger than spells of the same level, but have shorter durations. If you find a way to persist them, the limited number of uses matters less.

I'm not sure about the legality of the following ideas:
Tome of Magic states that Mysteries "cannot benefit from feats that enhance spells", but Incantatrix allows the application of metamagic feats to spell effects, not spells.
Later on, Tome of Magic states that "Mystery users create their own potions, scrolls, staffs and wands. These items function based on the mystery's level, and a mystery always functions like a spell when cast by an item, even if the caster level is high enough that a shadowcaster would use it as a supernatural ability". This could be interpreted to mean that an Artificer is allowed to apply metamagic to items containing mysteries, as they function like spells when cast by an item.

Probably doesn't matter for most campaigns anyway, as it either needs Leadership (like that feat is allowed often) or another player chosing a class just so he can support you.

[Maerok]

A lot of the shadowcaster spell choices are far too specialized for the terribly limited way in which they gain spells. There also seem to be some gaps in the variety of monsters they can go up against (I think undead, constructs, and others with immunities). However, a lot of their spells are rather interesting and potentially powerful. Plus their form of metamagic doesn't increase spell levels but has a limited number of uses per day. I'd be inclined to just let them have sorcerer spell progression and side-step all the silliness.

[Beelzebub1111]

There's three basic types of shadowcasters you can go with:
1: Blaster/Debuffer: High Intelligence, High Charisma. With some great offensive abilities, including a wisdom damaging one at lower levels, and a dual energy chain-lightning. Not to mention quicken, maximize, and empower that don't increase the spell level. Some amazing mysteries in the master tier that go beyond save or die. You can do some serious hurt.

2: Gish/Buffer/Debuffer: High Intelligence, High Strength, Above average dex. A first level spell that gives a +6 to AC (armor AND shield), A buff that gives temporary hit points based on hit dice of the target, Loads of touch spells that have no save(and one that can be used multiple times per casting AND slows), a feat that lets them ignore most attacks of opportunity, A spell that lets you dimension door as an immediate action giving you a 50% miss chance for one round/level, a spell that causes anyone that attacks you in melee to take damage, and more. They seem to be born gishes, though the limited spell selection means picking and choosing between two awesome paths.

3: Support/Sneak: High Intelligence, High Dex. Not as strong as the last two, but they still get some decent ones from this category. Not only is Hide and move silently as class skill, they have a spell at second level that gives them Hide in Plain Sight. They also have an apprentice path that lets you basically take away your opponent's ability to move, giving decent battlefield control. They have a mystery that let's you counterspell without readying an action then use that energy to cast a spell yourself immediately. The aforementioned total concealment very is nice. At Master Path, you have summoning, making yourself incorporeal, A version of true seeing with all the detect spells rolled into it, and a better version of foresight.

I like the class. Sure it's underpowered with the very limited spell selection and it pretty much forces you to specialize in one of these three ways, but That's half the fun, really.

[lsfreak]

It's biggest problem is that a) some of the spells are too specialized and b) it doesn't get enough of them per day. I've heard of people giving extremely simple fixes like changing mysteries/day to mysteries/encounter, but this tends to break things at higher levels. Instead, it does a lot to up their usefulness by implementing the suggested changes given by the creator, here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239).

I also use a few houserules, found in their not-quite-up-to-date-form here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153982) (old thread, don't post in it). And I'd definitely recommend RoC's incredible Descent of Shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519). Even if you don't draw on anything else, his new mysteries are excellent without being overpowered.

Personally, I love the shadowcaster's flavor and with a bit of fixing, they're solid choices.

[aquaticrna]

the one time i played a shadow caster it ended up being one of the strongest characters i've played, he was only useful once or twice a day, but by stacking maximize, empower, extend, still, and ray on one casting of umbral touch. the spell took about two rounds to cast, but because there were no components (the mysteries only have somatic components) i could hide the whole time then afterwords i ended up with 2x my caster level ray touches that each dealt 45 damage, and i was able to snipe with a hide in the low 30's and HiPS from a collar of umbral metamorphosis so i was hitting an AC of 10 every round. My dm hated him because no one could find him, and when the final boss came up and he used deflect rays all i had to do was not cast it as a ray spell. All in all a once per day wonder, but in most low level campaigns you don't need too much past that. There's also an AoE spell that makes squares deal cold damage... but the description states that each square does a certain amount of damage to anything occupying that square per round, any thing larger than medium didn't do very well after a couple rounds of that

[Zaydos]

the one time i played a shadow caster it ended up being one of the strongest characters i've played, he was only useful once or twice a day, but by stacking maximize, empower, extend, still, and ray on one casting of umbral touch. the spell took about two rounds to cast, but because there were no components (the mysteries only have somatic components) i could hide the whole time then afterwords i ended up with 2x my caster level ray touches that each dealt 45 damage, and i was able to snipe with a hide in the low 30's and HiPS from a collar of umbral metamorphosis so i was hitting an AC of 10 every round. My dm hated him because no one could find him, and when the final boss came up and he used deflect rays all i had to do was not cast it as a ray spell. All in all a once per day wonder, but in most low level campaigns you don't need too much past that. There's also an AoE spell that makes squares deal cold damage... but the description states that each square does a certain amount of damage to anything occupying that square per round, any thing larger than medium didn't do very well after a couple rounds of that

Why did it take 2 rounds to cast? Those up it to a full-round action. Also Maximize + Empower on 5d6 = 30 + 1/2 of 5d6, not 45 (the PHB addresses how they stack specifically).

[aquaticrna]

i don't remember exactly how long it took, i was using hyperbole, also didn't know that you rolled the 1/2 5d6 separately, thanks for the info... he would have been a little less damaging, but w/e still large amounts of consistent damage

[Maerok]

Well there are plenty of fixes for the shadowcaster out and around on the forums here or other places. The creator (Ari Marmell, Mouseferatu at enworld) posted his own fixes but I'd say he's already done quite enough already :smallannoyed:.