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View Full Version : David's got nothing on this guy.



Gorgondantess
2010-10-08, 12:28 AM
Well, potentially. I'm not going to make the actual guy. I'm far too lazy for that, after all, when I have these forums at my fingertips.
Anyways. What I'd like to see is, as a purely thought exercise, is if we can get a kobold to out-grapple a great wyrm red dragon. Of course it's possible, with expansion and all that, but that's not thematically cool, so let's say a kobold who doesn't increase size. You have 20 levels to work with, and let's assume 18's across the board on starting stats. No spellcasting levels (and yes, psychic warrior counts as spellcasting). UMD is cheating. I'm not saying a kobold who can actually beat the dragon, or reach it, or stand up to one breath weapon: I just want to see if there could be a kobold who decided to have a friendly wrestling match with its liege red dragon, and lay said liege flat on the ground.
Bonus points if you can do it in the dragon's AMF!

ranagrande
2010-10-08, 01:02 AM
I don't think it can be done using those rules. If levels in casting classes were allowed and it was only the spellcasting itself that was banned, it might be possible.

Roc Ness
2010-10-08, 02:30 AM
Well, Improved Grapple is a must...

Alleine
2010-10-08, 04:09 AM
Well, since you said nothing about non-umd magic items, play a kobold anything. Contract festering anger. Use a rod of bodily restoration. Now wait.

Or for less item use, go binder 1 and contract festering anger. Bind Naberius and again, wait. Given a year for incubation and enough time, you can outgrapple whoever you want.

Eldariel
2010-10-08, 04:19 AM
Can we ignore the fact that you can't grapple creatures 2 categories larger than yourself? 'cause I don't think any effect helps with that.

Myth
2010-10-08, 05:09 AM
Bear Totem Barbarian -> Bear Warrior -> Warshaper is a good start. Can't do the specifics because i'm at work.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-10-08, 10:08 AM
Totemist levels would help. Girallon Arms and the Kraken Mantle both provide pretty massive grapple bonuses. Lemme see:

Imp. Grapple: +4
Girallon Arms: +38
Kraken Mantle: +16

That alone gives a grapple bonus of +58, and I'm sure more can be done. How's that for a start?

Demons_eye
2010-10-08, 10:16 AM
Totemist levels would help. Girallon Arms and the Kraken Mantle both provide pretty massive grapple bonuses. Lemme see:

Imp. Grapple: +4
Girallon Arms: +38
Kraken Mantle: +16

That alone gives a grapple bonus of +58, and I'm sure more can be done. How's that for a start?

Add in Avatar with feet bound so you count as one size bigger when resisting checks like bull rush and grapple.

Edit: Also take stone blessed then Goliath barbarian sub levels to grow to large size when raging.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-08, 10:47 AM
Totemist levels would help. Girallon Arms and the Kraken Mantle both provide pretty massive grapple bonuses. Lemme see:

Imp. Grapple: +4
Girallon Arms: +38
Kraken Mantle: +16

That alone gives a grapple bonus of +58, and I'm sure more can be done. How's that for a start?

Unfortunately, the actual numbers you could muster are much more underwhelming than that. Boring Incarnum explanation, ahoy!

As per page 19 of Magic of Incarnum, you can only invest a maximum of 4 essentia into a soulmeld. A straight totemist 20 with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (twice) and Double Chakra can use totem embodiment 1/day to pump their max essentia for totem chakras to 14 each. However, you only get an essentia pool of 20. By taking an Incarnum feat, Bonus Essentia, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple, you can increase this to 23 essentia. Since Girallon Arms gives us more grappling bang for our buck, we invest the full 14 in that, leaving 9 to invest in Kraken Mantle. Thus, we get:

+4 Improved Grapple
+30 Girallon arms
+9 Kraken Mantle

+43 grapple

Fax Celestis
2010-10-08, 10:51 AM
Hate to rain on your parade, but:

Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the targetís space. (This movement is free and doesnít count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you canít move into your targetís space, you canít maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.

Demons_eye
2010-10-08, 10:54 AM
Kobold Totemist2/Stoneblessed3/Goliath Bear Totem Barbarian1/Raging monk 1/ Incarnate3 /Totem Rager 10

Lets see Essentia: Totemis2 Incarnate11
Bab +15
Str: 18 (starting)+ 5 (leveling)+ 5 (Tome) +6 (Item) = 34 (+14)
Improved Grapple: +4
Grillion Arms bound to totem +2 +2 per essentia (Max 4, +1 from expanded soulmeld capacity (Class feature), +2 totem bound, +1 expanded soulmeld capacity (Feat)) Total: 18
Kraken Mantle bound to arms essentia (max 4, +1 from expanded soulmeld capacity,+1 (Class feature), expanded soulmeld capacity (Feat)) Total: +6
Raging: +6 strength Large size: +7

If I count right thats +64 is large and can grapple Gargantuan creatures which is a Wyrm just not a great Wyrm.

Edit:

Can we ignore the fact that you can't grapple creatures 2 categories larger than yourself? 'cause I don't think any effect helps with that.


Hate to rain on your parade, but:

It was mentioned

Edit:edit: Binding Avatar to feet makes it count as one size bigger for resisting grapples.

Yep off count, forgot Incarnate are not medium bab. Was working with fractional bab so its lower that that.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-10-08, 11:57 AM
As per page 19 of Magic of Incarnum, you can only invest a maximum of 4 essentia into a soulmeld. A straight totemist 20 with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (twice) and Double Chakra can use totem embodiment 1/day to pump their max essentia for totem chakras to 14 each. However, you only get an essentia pool of 20. By taking an Incarnum feat, Bonus Essentia, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Improved Grapple, you can increase this to 23 essentia. Since Girallon Arms gives us more grappling bang for our buck, we invest the full 14 in that, leaving 9 to invest in Kraken Mantle. Thus, we get:

+4 Improved Grapple
+30 Girallon arms
+9 Kraken Mantle

+43 grapple

No. The totemist ability makes each point of essentia invested in a soulmeld count as two points. This allows us to max both melds out using 16 total points. Here's the breakdown:

4 (base capacity) + 2 (totem bound, split chakra feat to bind both) + 1 (Imp. Soulmeld Capacity for each) + 1 (Incarnum focus item for both melds) = 8 capacity each, counting as 16 points in each meld. This gives us:

Girallon Arms: +38 (+2 (base) +32 (Essentia) + 4 (you have four arms with the meld totem-bound)
Kraken Mantle: +16
Imp. Grapple: +4
Total: +58.
The only potential issue is if your DM won't let you have both Girallon Arms and Kraken Mantle shaped at the same time, which they may not.

Nanoblack
2010-10-08, 11:59 AM
Could also buy the grappling tentacle graft... I think it gives +4 strength and an additional +4 for grappling.

OMG PONIES
2010-10-08, 12:30 PM
No. The totemist ability makes each point of essentia invested in a soulmeld count as two points. This allows us to max both melds out using 16 total points.

I missed that each point counts as two--my mistake. However, you still can't plug 16 essentia into each soulmeld. We're closer, but we can only invest 14 in each. 4 maximum for a 20th level character+2 totem chakra bind capacity (15th level)+1 (expanded soulmeld capacity)=7x2 (Totem embodiment) = 14. While you only have to spend a total of 14 essentia to fill both to capacity, we're looking at a +30 from Girallon Arms and a +14 from Kraken Mantle. I think. Unfortunately, straight totemist has no way to resolve the size issue.

Grappling Tentacle is a good idea--this whole thread is starting to remind me of Ultimo Tarrasco, Jr. from Iron Chef XII.

I think the size is the only thing we need to worry about, but a Totemist 6/Stoneblessed 3/Goliath Barbarian 1/Totem Rager 10 could manage Gargantuan size for purposes of resisting a grapple. While the kobold starts as small, Mountain Rage directly states:


When he rages, his size category increases to Large.

So we've just jumped two categories! Granted, the next line mentions that a goliath only goes up one size category, but I think you've got a RAW argument for a two-size boost. Then, simply quaff a potion of Enlarge Person. You're Huge size, but since you bound Totem Avatar to your feet, you're treated as one size larger for purposes of resisting a grapple. That means you're counted as Gargantuan, which is one size category away from our Colossal Great Wyrm. So, drawing from the discussions we've been having (as well as Ultimo and Lycanthromancer's Tiny McLargevonhuge), how about the following:

Kobold Totemist 5/Stoneblessed 3/Goliath Barbarian 1/Totemist +1/Totem Rager 10

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
F Improved Grapple
F Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Girallon Arms)
3 Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Kraken Mantle)
6 Bonus Essentia
9 Cobalt Rage
12 Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
15 Azure Toughness
18 Cobalt Charge

GEAR: Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Gloves of Titan's Grip, Manual of STR +5, Grappling Tentacle, Potion of Enlarge Person

STR:

18 starting
-4 racial
+5 levels
+5 inherent (tome)
+6 enhancement (belt)
+4 untyped (graft)
+6 Mountain Rage
40 total (+15 modifier)


GRAPPLE:

14 BAB
+15 STR
+12 size (when resisting)
+8 enhancement (gloves)
+4 untyped (graft)
+2 insight (Open Lesser Chakra: arms)
+4 untyped (Improved Grapple)
+16 competence (Girallon Arms with 7 essentia invested, bound to totem)
+5 untyped (Kraken Mantle with 5 essentia invested, bound to arms)
+80 total


Thus, if the Collosal Great Wyrm attempts to grapple the Huge kobold, he's treated as Gargantuan and gets to resist with a grapple check that's 7 better than the Great Wyrm. However, it doesn't work in an AMF.

EDIT: OP, were you trying to refer to David (slaying a giant) or Jacob (wrestling with God)?

Gorgondantess
2010-10-09, 01:30 AM
Bah, rules! And this is why I'm not the one making the grappler.:smalltongue:
Though, I like that you can get the bonuses high enough, and that it's technically possible through virtual size categories, once you hit the gouda enough.
And I was referring to David, simply as in fighting a guy who's much bigger than he is.