(D&D 3.5) MIC and Augment Crystals

[Coidzor]

So, a thought occurred to me while skimming over the weapon augment crystals from the Magic Item Compendium and considering the rules/guidelines for item property stacking.

Can multiple weapon augments be put on the same crystal?

[Keld Denar]

Like an Lesser Energy Assault Crysal of Lesser Revalation?

I don't think there are really any rules for this. Crystals are balanced against each other under the premise that you use 1 per weapon at any given time. Thats why they are soooooo cheap (relatively speaking). Stacking abilities, even at a 1.5x premium or even a 2.0x premium, seems to go against that premise.

Just my thoughts.

[Ruinix]

just 1 per weapon or armor or shield.

[Cieyrin]

So, a thought occurred to me while skimming over the weapon augment crystals from the Magic Item Compendium and considering the rules/guidelines for item property stacking.

Can multiple weapon augments be put on the same crystal?

There's nothing in the rules saying you can't but, as Keld has said, the premise of augment crystals is that the limitation of one crystal per weapon/armor/shield is supposed to be the balance point of their convenience of switching crystal effects so you don't have the Golf Bag effect going.

Slightly off topic question that just occurred to me: If you have a Greater augment crystal, is it enough to Greater Magic Weapon your weapon to slot it in or does it physically need to be +3? If yes, what happens if your weapon gets dispelled? Does the augment crystal just pop out or does it revert to whatever level the weapon's normal enchantment can support (probably Least, since at the very least it's still Masterwork)?

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

The item needs to have the base enhancement on it; greater magic weapon will not work; because the magic weapon bonus effect is only temporary. This is the same reason why casting Wis, Cha, or Int buff on yourself before preparing spells does not give you bonus spells; it is not a permanent bonus.

Make sense?

[Cieyrin]

The item needs to have the base enhancement on it; greater magic weapon will not work; because the magic weapon bonus effect is only temporary. This is the same reason why casting Wis, Cha, or Int buff on yourself before preparing spells does not give you bonus spells; it is not a permanent bonus.

Make sense?

I suppose you apply the same logic to Defending weapons and Empyreal armor, for shifting the bonus from the weapon/armor to whatever effect the special ability allows, huh? Some posters have had different thoughts on the subject, so I thought I'd make the query. Perhaps it's just an offshoot of how people would rather have a +1 weapon with lots of qualities, rather than a +3 weapon with not quite as many.

[Pisha]

So, a thought occurred to me while skimming over the weapon augment crystals from the Magic Item Compendium and considering the rules/guidelines for item property stacking.

Can multiple weapon augments be put on the same crystal?

Nope. It's like - you know how in Eberron, you can't have more than one type of graft on your body, or else it might kill you, cripple you, drive you insane, or other fun side effects? It's kind of like that. Crystals can only innately hold so much magic, and when you start mixing effects it overloads them. Usually they just shatter and become worthless, but if you're really unlucky or the augments are particularly volatile together, it might shatter explosively, or melt and weld your weapon to the workbench, or develop quasi-sentience and try to eat your finger.

...I am completely making all of that up as I go along. But it's totally the answer I would give if one of my players tried it.

[Aharon]

@Cieyrin




Quote:
Originally Posted by MiC preview
A lesser augment crystal functions when affixed to an object with a magical enhancement bonus of +1 or higher (such as a +1 longsword). A greater augment crystal functions when bonded with an item with at least a +3 enhancement bonus. Only the item's actual bonus matters: a +3 dagger can house a greater augment crystal, but a +1 flaming keen rapier cannot.
(found here)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD entry for Greater Magic Weapon
This spell functions like magic weapon, except that it gives a weapon an enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5).


So where's the problem? Cast Greater Magic Weapon, put in your Greater Truedeath Crystal. GMW grants the enhancement bonus you need to affix the crystal. Nowhere in the description of the crystals does it say that the item's actual bonus has to be permanent - and the actual bonus is the highest bonus it has at the moment.


found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142739) old discussion of the same topic. We didn't come to a conclusion, though - everybody went out without convincing the other side :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan agreed with me, Shneekey the Lost did not. This doesn't say anything about the merit of any interpretation, but shows there's even dissent within the group of people who know the rules well.

[Keld Denar]

The item needs to have the base enhancement on it; greater magic weapon will not work; because the magic weapon bonus effect is only temporary. This is the same reason why casting Wis, Cha, or Int buff on yourself before preparing spells does not give you bonus spells; it is not a permanent bonus.

Citation? The reason you can't learn spells while under the influence of something like Owl's Wisdom is because the duration is too short. If you could make it last long enough, you could indeed memorize spells in the slots you gain from it, just the same as you can memorize spells in the slots you get from a Necklace of Wisdom +X. You can, however, qualify for feats while under the influence of magic. If you need Bull Str of a Belt of Giant Str +X to get a strength high enough to use Power Attack, you can. While you are unbuffed, you simply can not use Power Attack because you don't have the strength of arm to swing that hard. Doesn't mean you can't take it and use it when you qualify.

Nothing ANYWHERE in weapon augement crystals does it say that the weapon has to be a permanent +3 weapon. It needs a +3 enhancement bonus. Thats it. Guess what? When you cast GMW at CL12+, it has a +3 enhancement bonus. It is, for all intents and purposes, a +3 weapon. It cuts as deep and swings as fast as any other +3 weapon every produced.

Balance-wise, its not a problem. If your foe really cares enough to cast a targeted Dispel Magic on your weapon to make your augement crystal fall off, go for it. That gives me an extra round to cut his face off with the weapon, augement crystal or not. I mean, what if you were TWFing with Gloves of the Balanced Hand and someone targeted dispelled your gloves? Or worse, you were relying on your Gloves of Dex +6 to qualify for ITWF? Well, no TWFing for you for 1d4 rounds until they turn back on. Same case here, but more severe. No augement crystal for you until you get a new GMW cast on your weapon. Simple as that.

So, if its not a problem rules-wise, and not a problem balance-wise, why is it a problem?

[Diarmuid]

If you have a feat through temporary means and take a PrC, then lose that feat...you no longer gain any of your benefits from that PrC. I would think if the weapon no longer could support the crystal, then it would simply become inert.

[Endarire]

[i}Greater magic weapon[/i] lets you apply greater augment crystals. You'll only benefit from the greater augment effect if GMW is at least +3.

[Douglas]

Citation? The reason you can't learn spells while under the influence of something like Owl's Wisdom is because the duration is too short. If you could make it last long enough, you could indeed memorize spells in the slots you gain from it, just the same as you can memorize spells in the slots you get from a Necklace of Wisdom +X.
Actually, the reason you don't get bonus spells from Owl's Wisdom is that the spell description specifically says that you don't. Now if you were talking about other buff spells that don't stipulate that, such as Greater Visage of the Deity, Chasing Perfection, and Owl's Insight, then your point about duration would be valid.

[Keld Denar]

Unless thats simply reminder text. Theres a lot of redundant reminder text in the book, such as mentioning that various size modifiers apply and whatnot. It reminds you that NORMALLY you don't gain extra spells (because of the duration). Exceptions, however, may exist. There is no way of knowing whether or not its an absolute NO NEIN NEVER, or just a courtesy reminder of other rules that already govern that fact.

[Douglas]

There is no indication whatsoever in the text of the spell that the restriction is just a reminder or that it's because of the duration. The short duration may be the reason the restriction was put in, but basing anything on that is getting into interpretations of potential RAI. By RAW it is an unambiguous blanket denial. No reason is given, no exceptions are mentioned, no general rule is referenced, and no qualifying word such as "normally" is used; it is a standalone completely unqualified statement that the bonus does not grant bonus spells, so changing duration does nothing to alter it.

[Coidzor]

Actually, the reason you don't get bonus spells from Owl's Wisdom is that the spell description specifically says that you don't. Now if you were talking about other buff spells that don't stipulate that, such as Greater Visage of the Deity, Chasing Perfection, and Owl's Insight, then your point about duration would be valid.

Ok. So augment crystals don't explicitly forbid the enhancement bonus from GMW from letting them work. Nor does GMW, for that matter.

And applying to general principles from a specific bit of text from a specific spell about an unrelated topic is a stretch to say the least.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, you can't take rules in a vacuum though. Its the same reason I give for the fact that I believe a monk can TWF with his UAS. There is a phrase there that states something like: "There is no such thing as an offhand attack for a monk." This statement follows in the line that talks about a monk striking with different parts of his body, including both hands. It follows that this is reminder text that regardless of how you describe your monk attacking, none of his attacks are normally considered offhand. If, however, you are TWFing, then a monk has an offhand attack while attacking unarmed, because TWFing give him one. Taken out of context, it states "THOU SHALT NOT EVAR EVAR EVAR EVAR MAKE OFFHAND ATTACKS EVAR EVAR EVAR". Taken in context, however, reveals that when making his normal alotment of unarmed attacks dictated by his BAB and flurry ability, none of his hand are considered offhand attacks. This is the exact same rule that governs every class, not just monks. The fact that its stated is redundant with other rules (specifically that you can make attacks with any combination of weapon you may be wielding and none are considered offhand as long as you don't exceed the number of attacks your BAB normally grants you), makes it a simple reminder text.

Likewise, normally you have to spend 15 minutes prepping spells. If the spell lasts for a time shorter than 15 minutes, you'd lose the slots before you fill them. The text is there to remind you that the slots don't "magically fill themselves", and that if you follow normal spell prep procedure, you still won't benefit because of the required time. Thus, you can't prepare spells (or make slots castable in the case of spontaneous casters) in the slots you gain from that buff. If you could make the buff last longer, (such as persisting it or *gasp* crafting an item that gives you the bonus), you'd be creating an exception to that rule.

[Cieyrin]

found in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142739) old discussion of the same topic. We didn't come to a conclusion, though - everybody went out without convincing the other side :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan agreed with me, Shneekey the Lost did not. This doesn't say anything about the merit of any interpretation, but shows there's even dissent within the group of people who know the rules well.

Doesn't surprise me Sinfire Titan would, the man loves Augment Crystals, at least if his Weapon Redux is any indication. Wish I could find the thread where he posted it, though, as my Google-Fu fails me utterly in finding it. :smallannoyed:

[Fizban]

Here's a question similar to trying for multiple crystal abilities on one crystal: what about getting extra charges for a charges/day item? The formulas should be a simple multiplier (x2 for double charges, etc), but the items are balanced assuming you'll only have that many charges per day. However, at higher levels you can just buy extra items and switch them between fights, so is it really that bad? What if you doubled the price and charges per day, but only allowed half that per encounter, or required some sort of action to switch to the next pool?

[Keld Denar]

What charges? The only crystals I can think of that have charges are the DR ones and the Energy Resistance ones. Is that what you are refering to?

Considering that crystals have no attunement period, you could just buy 2 of them and swap them out between encounters to get exactly the effect you are describing...

[Fizban]

I meant the question if of similar balance issues, not actual charged crystals. I'm thinking of stuff like Anklets of Translocation and Healing Belts and Rings of Mystic Fire and such. Items with charges per day that you want more charges of, many of which have extra benefits if you use more charges at once. The mechanic lets a lower level character get multiple uses for a lot of relative cash, while a higher level character can blow the whole thing at once for a stronger benefit once it stops being a large chunk of cash. This goes to the point where there are plenty of items I'd buy 3 or 4 of a switch between fights if I had too, but it'd be nice to not have too. The question is, did they assume some people would do that and so the number of charges is supposed to be the max per encounter even if you can afford extra, or is it okay to just add more charges? The foreward for the chapter says not to allow item slot mixing and extra powers since the items are balanced by slot occupation, but that doesn't preclude just having more of the same item.

[Keld Denar]

I'd say its balanced across encounters. Honestly, as a DM, if you wanted to pay 3000g for a Healing Belt that had 12 charges but limited you to 3 chargest per encounter, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Its mechanically IDENTICAL to having 4 Healing Belts, just kerfluffled differently. In combat, the 12 or so second you need to switch belts is an eternity. Out of combat, that same 12 seconds is trivial in 99.999% of situations, maybe even more.

RAW wise, there is no precident, this is all just my thoughts on balance and fairness to players.

[lsfreak]

I'd say its balanced across encounters. Honestly, as a DM, if you wanted to pay 3000g for a Healing Belt that had 12 charges but limited you to 3 chargest per encounter, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Its mechanically IDENTICAL to having 4 Healing Belts, just kerfluffled differently. In combat, the 12 or so second you need to switch belts is an eternity. Out of combat, that same 12 seconds is trivial in 99.999% of situations, maybe even more.

For the most part, I'd probably let players have multiple charges in the same battle. Just a flat extra-charges-of-item, no caveats. Off the top of my head, the only item that I'd really think about was Belt of Battle, since breaking the action economy that cheaply can easily be problematic.

[Keld Denar]

Eh, there are a few that are significantly better if you can nova in one combat. Gloves of Fortunate Striking for the 1/day attack reroll. Amulet of Heartstriking for essentially Wraithstrike 3/day. Deathstrike Bracers, especially these, since using all the charges in one encounter with a construct is easy if you don't expect to meet any more constructs that day.

I guess it applies more to the items that are activated with a swift action rather than the ones that are activated with a standard action, because of the action advantage...

[KerlanRayne]

Doesn't surprise me Sinfire Titan would, the man loves Augment Crystals, at least if his Weapon Redux is any indication. Wish I could find the thread where he posted it, though, as my Google-Fu fails me utterly in finding it. :smallannoyed:Is this what you're looking for? Weapons Redesign (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7145.0) or here's the local version: Weapons Redesign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141771)

[Coidzor]

Hmm, that reminds me, any thoughts on the subject of allowing augment crystals with an amulet of mighty fists or a necklace of natural attacks(hope I got the name right)?

I think I've heard of some allowing weapon properties to be put on such items before.

[Keld Denar]

Natural attackers are already at such a disadvantage. Couldn't hurt.

[Cieyrin]

Is this what you're looking for? Weapons Redesign (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7145.0) or here's the local version: Weapons Redesign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141771)

Yeah, them's the ones! Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

Hmm, that reminds me, any thoughts on the subject of allowing augment crystals with an amulet of mighty fists or a necklace of natural attacks(hope I got the name right)?

I think I've heard of some allowing weapon properties to be put on such items before.Necklace of Natural Weapons is valid for +X equivalents, such as Keen or Flaming, by default. It should be fair game for Weapon Crystals too.

Amulet of Mighty Fists is a cruel joke.

[Cieyrin]

Necklace of Natural Weapons is valid for +X equivalents, such as Keen or Flaming, by default. It should be fair game for Weapon Crystals too.

Amulet of Mighty Fists is a cruel joke.

That actually depends on what you want to do with the Necklace as opposed to the Amulet. If you want to just to be able to pierce DR/Magic with all your natural attacks all the time and you have a lot of natural attacks, the Amulet can actually save you quite a bit of cash, if you just go for a +1 Amulet.

Otherwise, yes, the Amulet is way overpriced, especially considering if you're just going with unarmed attacks, you only have to enchant one, since the entire body can be used in an unarmed attack interchangeably, so it's usually cheaper to get the Necklace, plus you can throw on whatever customizations you want onto your attacks. Feel free to make your +1 Flaming Valorous Pelvic Thrusts, you'll make everybody around you wince away while you're at it. :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

That actually depends on what you want to do with the Necklace as opposed to the Amulet. If you want to just to be able to pierce DR/Magic with all your natural attacks all the time and you have a lot of natural attacks, the Amulet can actually save you quite a bit of cash, if you just go for a +1 Amulet.+1 Amulet of Might Fists is 8000gp. Necklace of Natural Weapons (for one natural weapon, ie. Unarmed Strike) is 2600gp. You'd need four natural weapons before the Amulet is more economical, and even then the difference is minor.

[Cieyrin]

+1 Amulet of Might Fists is 8000gp. Necklace of Natural Weapons (for one natural weapon, ie. Unarmed Strike) is 2600gp. You'd need four natural weapons before the Amulet is more economical, and even then the difference is minor.

I can think of some Totemist builds that would seriously consider an Amulet over a Necklace, especially the ones Keld keeps putting forward. :smalltongue:

Now, would you stay with an Amulet? No, probably not, especially as WBL goes up, but it's a nice initial purchase, rather than depending on your party druid to cast Greater or Superior Magic Fang on you, which you can't always depend on having available.

[Greenish]

I can think of some Totemist builds that would seriously consider an Amulet over a Necklace, especially the ones Keld keeps putting forward. :smalltongue:Totemists will be pumping essentia into their natural weapons anyway, and that already gives them straight +X enhancement bonuses.

[Cieyrin]

Totemists will be pumping essentia into their natural weapons anyway, and that already gives them straight +X enhancement bonuses.

Not all of a Totemist's natural attacks will necessarily be soulmelds, though, either, whether they be from Aberration feats, grafts or gained racially.

Regardless, all I'm saying is that there are a few instances where an Amulet is a better buy. In all other cases, you're probably better off with a Necklace, provided your DM doesn't lump it with most of the rest of Savage Species and ban everything from the book. Which is a shame, really, as there is some really neat stuff in the book that barely survived to see the light of day, considering what eventually became the book was initially aimed at a rather monstrous official campaign setting.

[Greenish]

Not all of a Totemist's natural attacks will necessarily be soulmelds, though, either, whether they be from Aberration feats, grafts or gained racially.I should think a totemist with more than three natural attacks that stack with the ones from the class is a rare critter.


Regardless, all I'm saying is that there are a few instances where an Amulet is a better buy.There are a few instances where stabbing yourself in the eye is the better option. That doesn't mean that the Amulet is anything but a cruel joke. :smallamused:

Anyhow, that's getting quite offtopic.

[Cieyrin]

I should think a totemist with more than three natural attacks that stack with the ones from the class is a rare critter.

I was mostly thinking of tentacle attacks from Aberration feats and grafts, as well as the Skarn's spine attack, really.


There are a few instances where stabbing yourself in the eye is the better option. That doesn't mean that the Amulet is anything but a cruel joke. :smallamused:

Touche.

[Chrono22]

Unless otherwise stated, augment crystals should function in the same way as other magic items in regards to item creation/dispelling/etc.
So, yeah you can apply multiple augment crystal effects to the same crystal, but you'd suffer a +50% markup on the cost for all additional effects.