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Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 01:39 AM
So, latest in the line of DMing decisions that I will almost certaintly be criticized for. Explaination:

My 2nd level party is currently camped out in a city overwhelmed with undead. This is perfectly fine so long as I keep the enemy numbers in check. The concern comes from a little bit of flavor I added. Namely a Chain Devil that's hanging out in the ruins of this town. I put him there as the towns answer to Pyramid Head; a terrifying, overwhelming force that will cause the party to drop whatever they're doing and run for the hills if they so much as think he's within three blocks of them.

The problem is, I don't exactly have a high opinion of my party's survival instinct. (Part of the point of this campaign is to instill one.) So my question is, how can I display this thing's extreme capacity for PC-murder in a way that will actually make them understand that this is not something to be ****ed with? If I have to kill these characters, I'd rather have it be for a better reason than "they ran headfirst into a blender."

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 01:47 AM
Let them make a few futile attacks against it; play up the thing laughing off their pitiful attempts to hurt it. Have it stalk them slowly without a care for their tactics, smashing bits of the scenery as it goes along. Emphasize that they are helpless before it.

You can also instill a sense of dread by having them see it dispatch some of the enemies they might otherwise fear with ease. Maybe some starving Wight goes after it and gets torn limb from limb by its animate chains ability. Maybe they find a journal describing the decimation of another party by this chain devil (added bonus: actually write the journal on tattered, yellowed paper and hand it to them as a prop). Maybe the half-mad devil bursts through a wall and literally consumes a few zombies alive. Whatever you do, let them have the chance to AVOID a confrontation first before you let loose with the thing teaching them fear on the end of a spiked chain.

mucat
2010-10-09, 01:49 AM
Wait till the PCs have just barely survived the toughest fight of their lives. Whatever creature or creatures they just fought, have five times as many of the same things come into play. Clearly an unstoppable force, and the PCs will have to know they should flee, hide, or avoid.

These unstoppable bad guys then say or do something that displeases the chain devil, who splatters them like you would swat a fly, then walks off on business of his own.

If they don't get the message, they're not trying to live.


EDIT: Ninja'd.

Elfin
2010-10-09, 01:52 AM
I'd suggest introducing the devil as a shadowy, menacing figure who leads (from behind) hordes of lesser foes, though never actually entering the fray itself: even if the PCs don't know how to judge whether they can beat a single enemy, they're much more likely to realize that they're outmatched if they're facing an enormous force of ghouls and zombies.

Plus, if the devil is always accompanied by such a horde, the PCs will porbably get the message that this guy equals bad news.

JonestheSpy
2010-10-09, 01:56 AM
Okay, this might cause some severe disapproval, but here's my advice: cheat. If the players run into this creature and aren't experienced enough to realize they're outclassed, figure out away to beat them down without a TPK, one that hopefully doesn't seem contrived or deus ex machina. Perhaps having the devil have an ability for stunning, so it's not utterly stupid tactics for it to incapacitate one character then go after another without killing the first.

If they can survive with almost no hit points and no spells left, and do so with the impression that only a few lucky die rolls saved them instead of DM mercy, they will probably start to be a lot more cautious. If they don't get the hint, they deserve to be massacred next time around.

Shadowleaf
2010-10-09, 01:57 AM
Are they alone in the city?

Otherwise, have the strongest NPCs die horribly to this entity - in the open and in front of the party. Have them see the devil rip apart the NPCs, then turn its attention on the party.

Make sure the party is at full strength when they encounter it - if they are wounded, they might make the assumption that it's beatable if they're fully prepared for it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 01:57 AM
So have it Curb Stomp something considerably stronger than the party and hope they take the hint? Seems doable.

A bit of background on this particular Chain Devil, as a possible alternative I thought of:

Known as "The Chained Man," what it originally was is unknown. In the end it was defeated and bound, kept locked beneath the holy Temple and guarded by the Templar Knights (5th-7th Level Paladins). Unfortunately, when the undead horde stormed through the city and wiped out the Templar, there was nothing left binding the Chained Man, who broke free and began to terrorize what was left of the city.

I was thinking I could have them search the Temple, and in the basement have them find the shattered remnants of it's prison, with enough countermeasures that, if they weren't all broken through, would seem like overkill.

EDIT: Ninja'd three times...


I'd suggest introducing the devil as a shadowy, menacing figure who leads (from behind) hordes of lesser foes, though never actually entering the fray itself: even if the PCs don't know how to judge whether they can beat a single enemy, they're much more likely to realize that they're outmatched if they're facing an enormous force of ghouls and zombies.

Plus, if the devil is always accompanied by such a horde, the PCs will porbably get the message that this guy equals bad news.

Akshully, this is supposed to be the type of threat that ALL sides of the conflict fear. When he turns up, villains and heroes alike **** bricks and get out FAST.

Kaww
2010-10-09, 01:58 AM
Make them meet ether an NPC that is more powerful than they are or an NPC party, that is tougher than they are. Have them face the threat and die horribly without rolling the dice. When they should avoid the threat use the same creature and increase it's size category, but no additional HD (+1CR).

This is as clear as it gets.

EDIT:
Are they alone in the city?

Otherwise, have the strongest NPCs die horribly to this entity - in the open and in front of the party. Have them see the devil rip apart the NPCs, then turn its attention on the party.

Make sure the party is at full strength when they encounter it - if they are wounded, they might make the assumption that it's beatable if they're fully prepared for it.

Darn, too slow.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 01:59 AM
Are they alone in the city?

Otherwise, have the strongest NPCs die horribly to this entity - in the open and in front of the party. Have them see the devil rip apart the NPCs, then turn its attention on the party.

Make sure the party is at full strength when they encounter it - if they are wounded, they might make the assumption that it's beatable if they're fully prepared for it.

Worf effect is always bad in RPGs. Please don't do this - it makes any powerful NPC in your campaign seem like a chump.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:01 AM
Are they alone in the city?

Otherwise, have the strongest NPCs die horribly to this entity - in the open and in front of the party. Have them see the devil rip apart the NPCs, then turn its attention on the party.

Make sure the party is at full strength when they encounter it - if they are wounded, they might make the assumption that it's beatable if they're fully prepared for it.

Unfortunately, I already killed off all the competent NPCs in town when the undead invaded. The very Paladins that kept this thing locked up in the first place were Chunky Salsa'd. :smallbiggrin:

Since then, the toughest NPCs left in town are 3rd level at best.

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:03 AM
Worf effect is always bad in RPGs. Please don't do this - it makes any powerful NPC in your campaign seem like a chump.

It's a 2nd lvl party. There should more powerful NPCs that don't have to be too smart. City guards are likely to be tougher than they are.

@ OP:

Have the same (or greater) number of lvl 3 chars as an NPC party.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:04 AM
It's a 2nd lvl party. There should more powerful NPCs that don't have to be too smart. City guards are likely to be tougher than they are.

The average city guard in my game is 3rd level, yes.

Unfortunately, they're all dead. Zombie cows happened.

Shadowleaf
2010-10-09, 02:05 AM
Worf effect is always bad in RPGs. Please don't do this - it makes any powerful NPC in your campaign seem like a chump.
This is true. If executed poorly, this is the effect it will have.

It can be done properly, however. This is how I imagine it:

Holy Paladin William eats lesser devils for breakfast. He's helped the city with the undead since day one, and has (probably) more kills than anyone else.
The party is out on a mission with him, and they encounter undead. They fight for a while, and the Chain Devil appears.

Now is the fine line between awesome and terribad. This is the important part. Let's look at a few scenarios:

The Paladin chooses to make an epic last stand, telling the party to flee because the Devil is too strong. This will most likely remind the players of Gandalf Versus Balroeg, and.. This is not good storytelling, this is railroading.

The Paladin and the party take up arms against the Devil. The Devil rips the Paladin apart, but not before he places the party in a Sanctuary effect. The Devil tries to break it, gets bored, and leaves. This will leave the party scared of it, to say the least.

The Paladin and the party fight the Devil. The Paladin is brutally killed, and the Devil turns its attention to the party. Smart players would run, but.. Most probably wouldn't.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 02:07 AM
Any general comments on my first recommendation? That's how I normally do things in my games when I want to establish badass monster-figures, but my players get subtle hints (most of the time).

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:10 AM
Any general comments on my first recommendation? That's how I normally do things in my games when I want to establish badass monster-figures, but my players get subtle hints (most of the time).

Just let them hit the thing and have it laugh as it No Sell (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoSell)s everything? Honestly, I like that one. :smallamused:

Worira
2010-10-09, 02:10 AM
Wait till the PCs have just barely survived the toughest fight of their lives. Whatever creature or creatures they just fought, have five times as many of the same things come into play. Clearly an unstoppable force, and the PCs will have to know they should flee, hide, or avoid.

These unstoppable bad guys then say or do something that displeases the chain devil, who splatters them like you would swat a fly, then walks off on business of his own.

If they don't get the message, they're not trying to live.


EDIT: Ninja'd.

Except that that would result in the chain devil getting brutally slaughtered.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:13 AM
Except that that would result in the chain devil getting brutally slaughtered.

Not really. I'm pretty sure it could take out pretty much anything currently living in this town. Especially considering it has DR 5/Silver or Good and Regeneration 2. Smack it all you like, unless you have the right tool it's gonna do **** all.

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:15 AM
Let them make a few futile attacks against it; play up the thing laughing off their pitiful attempts to hurt it. Have it stalk them slowly without a care for their tactics, smashing bits of the scenery as it goes along. Emphasize that they are helpless before it.

You can also instill a sense of dread by having them see it dispatch some of the enemies they might otherwise fear with ease. Maybe some starving Wight goes after it and gets torn limb from limb by its animate chains ability. Maybe they find a journal describing the decimation of another party by this chain devil (added bonus: actually write the journal on tattered, yellowed paper and hand it to them as a prop). Maybe the half-mad devil bursts through a wall and literally consumes a few zombies alive. Whatever you do, let them have the chance to AVOID a confrontation first before you let loose with the thing teaching them fear on the end of a spiked chain.

From what I understood. The BBEG DEVIL is controlling/herding the undead so I don't think they would attack him.

What kind of a person do you think would write a journal in this kind of situation? You see a bunch of people slaughtered by a monstrosity, :elan::This makes a great story!

Why should he laugh at them when he slaughtered much weaker NPCs than they are. If the answer is: they are PCs I murder a kitten.

EDIT: I stand corrected, but you didn't say if I'm right: Does he have anything to do with the control of the said undead.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:17 AM
From what I understood. The BBEG is controlling/herding the undead so I don't think they would attack him.

Big Bad is a different (and much tougher) individual.


What kind of a person do you think would write a journal in this kind of situation? You see a bunch of people slaughtered by a monstrosity, :elan::This makes a great story!

Why should he laugh at them when he slaughtered much weaker NPCs than they are. If the answer is: they are PCs I murder a kitten.

Mayhaps the Chained Man likes to play with his food before he eats it? :smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 02:23 AM
Why should he laugh at them when he slaughtered much weaker NPCs than they are. If the answer is: they are PCs I murder a kitten.

"The city's [--------------] food is running low. We've been contemplating eating some of the undead, but won't stoop so low just yet. Not yet. Haldrik [-----------------]."

"[-----] gods, it was terrible. Haldrik found survivors and called out to them when some kind of demon burst from the catacomb tunnels [---------] could hear their shrieking from eight blocks away. Haldrik said the chain demon spent hours killing them [----------]"

Why is the journal torn into shreds? What happened to the author? I smell plot hook :p

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:23 AM
Mayhaps the Chained Man likes to play with his food before he eats it? :smalltongue:

I'd guess he got bored after a while, if he was into it...

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:27 AM
EDIT: I stand corrected, but you didn't say if I'm right: Does he have anything to do with the control of the said undead.

No. The Chained Man is more of a Giant Space Flea From Nowhere (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere). He's got nothing to do with the main plot, and his sole purpose is to make the PCs piss themselves.

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:28 AM
"The city's [--------------] food is running low. We've been contemplating eating some of the undead, but won't stoop so low just yet. Not yet. Haldrik [-----------------]."

"[-----] gods, it was terrible. Haldrik found survivors and called out to them when some kind of demon burst from the catacomb tunnels [---------] could hear their shrieking from eight blocks away. Haldrik said the chain demon spent hours killing them [----------]"

Why is the journal torn into shreds? What happened to the author? I smell plot hook :p

I apologize if this is a double post.

We have no food, we flee undead every day, they ate all the capable people. On the plus side I fond this amazing inkwell (insert high price), undamaged pen (insert price) and an empty book so PCs would know what is happening. Is this the header of the journal?

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 02:28 AM
@Psycho - Look up :p

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:32 AM
"The city's [--------------] food is running low. We've been contemplating eating some of the undead, but won't stoop so low just yet. Not yet. Haldrik [-----------------]."

"[-----] gods, it was terrible. Haldrik found survivors and called out to them when some kind of demon burst from the catacomb tunnels [---------] could hear their shrieking from eight blocks away. Haldrik said the chain demon spent hours killing them [----------]"

Why is the journal torn into shreds? What happened to the author? I smell plot hook :p

I think I might use this. :smallamused: The PCs are here in the first place because they thought the undead in town might make good training. (In other words, they saw it as a giant chunk of XP in character.) Why should they be the first to come to that conclusion?


@Psycho - Look up :p

I saw it. Linking to TVTropes just distracted me a bit. :smalltongue:

Elfin
2010-10-09, 02:35 AM
Akshully, this is supposed to be the type of threat that ALL sides of the conflict fear. When he turns up, villains and heroes alike **** bricks and get out FAST.

Ah, then perhaps you could initially present a seemingly major villain on the undead side, have it flee, and, when it comes time for a rematch, have the chain devil burst in, slaughtering the "big bad" without a thought?
If nothing else, it's a way of killing an NPC to show the devil's power while avoiding Gandalf/Balrog syndrome.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 02:37 AM
I apologize if this is a double post.

We have no food, we flee undead every day, they ate all the capable people. On the plus side I fond this amazing inkwell (insert high price), undamaged pen (insert price) and an empty book so PCs would know what is happening. Is this the header of the journal?

The PCs find the journal in the remnants of an inn; broken barricades and hurriedly abandoned belongings abound.

PCs find the pages floating on the wind. Are the author and his companions still alive? Maybe. If they are, they could probably use some back-up.

PCs find the pages clutched in the fist of a skeletal corpse, the rest of the book too splattered with blood to read. Peel the skeleton's fist back away from the book and you find a pendant with a family crest. Maybe this poor soldier had a family. They probably want to know what happened to him.

And honestly, man, you can own a journal BEFORE all hell breaks loose :p

Elfin
2010-10-09, 02:38 AM
"The city's [--------------] food is running low. We've been contemplating eating some of the undead, but won't stoop so low just yet. Not yet. Haldrik [-----------------]."

"[-----] gods, it was terrible. Haldrik found survivors and called out to them when some kind of demon burst from the catacomb tunnels [---------] could hear their shrieking from eight blocks away. Haldrik said the chain demon spent hours killing them [----------]"

Why is the journal torn into shreds? What happened to the author? I smell plot hook :p

Now that is a good idea. I like it a lot.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:38 AM
Ah, then perhaps you could initially present a seemingly major villain on the undead side, have it flee, and, when it comes time for a rematch, have the chain devil burst in, slaughtering the "big bad" without a thought?
If nothing else, it's a way of killing an NPC to show the devil's power while avoiding Gandalf/Balrog syndrome.

Hm... I suppose. Though I don't think the PCs will ever get the opportunity to take this thing down, and killing the local undead leader would only rob the PCs of a boss fight.

On the other hand, the PCs are so morally ambiguous that one of them is actually friends with said undead boss... which is the only thing keeping her from being ghoul food. So it might give her incentive to move on. :smallamused:

Elfin
2010-10-09, 02:44 AM
You're right; on second thought, the kill-stealing idea would probably just frustrate players.
Honestly, at this point I'd just use Lord Gareth's suggestion.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:47 AM
*lightbulb*

The party barbarian is searching for his brother, whom he knows was in this general area not too long ago... :smallamused:

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:47 AM
The PCs find the journal in the remnants of an inn; broken barricades and hurriedly abandoned belongings abound.

PCs find the pages floating on the wind. Are the author and his companions still alive? Maybe. If they are, they could probably use some back-up.

PCs find the pages clutched in the fist of a skeletal corpse, the rest of the book too splattered with blood to read. Peel the skeleton's fist back away from the book and you find a pendant with a family crest. Maybe this poor soldier had a family. They probably want to know what happened to him.

And honestly, man, you can own a journal BEFORE all hell breaks loose :p

Again, my opinion: If there is at least one intelligent undead there this wouldn't be possible. For starters ghouls climb, and they are good at it, so they would just have a barricaded tavern full of food unable to escape. PCs would find a barricaded tavern and would, probably do something stupid - assume there are people in there. And then oh, no ghouls, who if I'm not mistaking, are just as literate as commoners and smarter then avg Joe.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:49 AM
Again, my opinion: If there is at least one intelligent undead there this wouldn't be possible. For starters ghouls climb, and they are good at it, so they would just have a barricaded tavern full of food unable to escape. PCs would find a barricaded tavern and would, probably do something stupid - assume there are people in there. And then oh, no ghouls, who if I'm not mistaking, are just as literate as commoners and smarter then avg Joe.

Well, there's nothing in the inn regardless. That's where the last batch of PCs died. :smallcool: Which as I'm sure a few of you know, was mostly my fault.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-09, 02:51 AM
Also, Ghouls have no climb speed.

Kaww
2010-10-09, 02:58 AM
Well, there's nothing in the inn regardless. That's where the last batch of PCs died. :smallcool: Which as I'm sure a few of you know, was mostly my fault.


PCs find the pages floating on the wind. Are the author and his companions still alive? Maybe. If they are, they could probably use some back-up.

PCs find the pages clutched in the fist of a skeletal corpse, the rest of the book too splattered with blood to read. Peel the skeleton's fist back away from the book and you find a pendant with a family crest. Maybe this poor soldier had a family. They probably want to know what happened to him.

And honestly, man, you can own a journal BEFORE all hell breaks loose :p

I was covering options where there are pages lying around and leading to food...

P.S. Would you go and search for your journal, inkwell (~50gp per page, I think, might be wrong) and pen or run the hell away from undead? Most commoners can't afford this kind of hobbie...

EDIT: Most PCs don't have climb speeds ether, this doesn't prevent them climbing, if they have +5 and an easy surface. Why is a ghoul different? :smallconfused:

Shademan
2010-10-09, 08:41 AM
finding "the chained man is coming,the chained man is coming,the chained man is coming!" written in blood somewhere might make them all "huh...chained man...bad?"
and when they see a humanoid of chains they will be cautionus.
take it from there

Starbuck_II
2010-10-09, 09:13 AM
I want you to consider the impossible, kick reason to the curb:
what if they keep rolling 20's and beat the thing?

Always plan for contingencies. Remember we use Dice for the randomness.

IncoherentEssay
2010-10-09, 09:23 AM
I know you didn't ask for a statblock, but i think this represents what you want pretty nicely.
Adv. Chain Devil (12HD) CR:8(irrelevant, really)
STR:12 DEX:12 CON:20 INT:6 WIS:12 CHA:11 IN:+1 AL:LE
HP:117 AC:19,11,18 SV:13/9/13 BA:+12 GRAB:+14 SPEED:30'
Feats:Endurance(1st)*, Steadfast Determination(3rd)**, Diehard(6th)***, Toughness(9th)*, Pain Mastery(12th)****
Skills: Climb +17, Craft (blacksmithing) +21, Escape Artist +16, Intimidate +15, Listen +16, Spot +16
Special: Dancing Chains, Unnerving Gaze (DC:15), DR 5/silver or good, SR 22(HD+10), regeneration 2/silver or [Good], Immune to cold
Attacks: 2 Chains +13 m. (2d4+1)

Feats:
* are prerequisites
** from PHB2, adds CON to Will instead of WIS & doesn't autofail Fort on an 1.
*** won't go unconscious when battered, but will be restricted to Partial actions, say Dancing Chains :smallwink:
**** every 50 damage he takes, adds +2 STR => +1 to hit & damage. Exhausted after the encounter, but since the encounter ends when the party manages to run away, it won't see screentime.

In summary, he is relatively easy to outrun, but unless you are willing to go face-to-face with a silvered/blessed weapon, he's pretty much unkillable and WILL take you down.
Since Kytons are wrapped in chains, he always has them available to drop a Dancing Chains if he is taken down to partial actions.
Since Kytons love fear, have him advance upon any who remain standing if he drops someone (if the party is dumb enough to fight).
Interestingly, since the chains are a natural weapon for Kytons, he can initiate grapple with them, including those animated with Dancing Chains. The potential for paranoia is obvious :smallamused:.
The 'slow' flaw can be repreesnted by describing the Chained Man as dragging behind him some torn-off masonry that he was chained to during his imrisonment. The bindings being warded, he can't smash it off, so he just drags it along. Maybe smashes a few heads with it.

There's also the delicious potential of:
(Party Barbarian, raging):Nat 20 -> Nat 20, scythe crit for 100+ damage
(DM): "Yup, still standing. He hits you back, you feel he is actually hitting harder :smallamused:."
(Party): :smalleek:

Besides, even if they scrounge up a silver/blessed pointy stick, there's still a good 117 hp to whittle through :smalltongue:
Edit: removed the flaw and shuffled some strenght to wisdom.

Forged Fury
2010-10-09, 01:20 PM
I still like the Worf effect, although I prefer to think of it as the "Samuel L. Jackson in Deep Blue Sea" effect. Always reminds me of Chapelle's Show.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 01:41 PM
In summary, he is relatively easy to outrun, but unless you are willing to go face-to-face with a silvered/blessed weapon, he's pretty much unkillable and WILL take you down.
Since Kytons are wrapped in chains, he always has them available to drop a Dancing Chains if he is taken down to partial actions.
Since Kytons love fear, have him advance upon any who remain standing if he drops someone (if the party is dumb enough to fight).
Interestingly, since the chains are a natural weapon for Kytons, he can initiate grapple with them, including those animated with Dancing Chains. The potential for paranoia is obvious :smallamused:.
The 'slow' flaw can be repreesnted by describing the Chained Man as dragging behind him some torn-off masonry that he was chained to during his imrisonment. The bindings being warded, he can't smash it off, so he just drags it along. Maybe smashes a few heads with it.

There's also the delicious potential of:
(Party Barbarian, raging):Nat 20 -> Nat 20, scythe crit for 100+ damage
(DM): "Yup, still standing. He hits you back, you feel he is actually hitting harder :smallamused:."
(Party): :smalleek:

Besides, even if they scrounge up a silver/blessed pointy stick, there's still a good 117 hp to whittle through :smalltongue:

I don't use flaws (partially because I think Disability Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabilitySuperpower) are stupid, and partially because I still have no clue where they come from. They sure as hell aren't Core.), and an Advanced Kyton is a bit overkill, considering that any stronger and it'll get Fridge Logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic)-y as to how the hell the Templar bound it in the first place.

Regardless, no matter how hard they smack it, it's pretty much impossible for them to do any real harm to this thing. (They have no access to silver or blessed weapons at all without moving to a different city altogether. So, 7 damage/round being completely worthless, and failure to hit at least that each round means he heals... :smallamused:)

And if by some miracle they actually knock it unconcious and Coup de Grace the bastard, then bloody hell that was awesome, you get eight kajillion XP!

lsfreak
2010-10-09, 01:43 PM
Flaws are from Unearthed Arcana. They're under the variant rules in the SRD.

As for coup de grace, they can't. You have to have a weapon that damages them (good or silver) in order to coup de grace. Now, they could keep the thing unconscious simply be beating on it indefinitely, but they can't actually kill it.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 01:47 PM
Flaws are from Unearthed Arcana. They're under the variant rules in the SRD.

*shrug* I don't use the SRD anyway. I have a "don't own it in meatspace, don't use it" rule.


As for coup de grace, they can't. You have to have a weapon that damages them (good or silver) in order to coup de grace. Now, they could keep the thing unconscious simply be beating on it indefinitely, but they can't actually kill it.

*re-reads regeneration rules*

So it seems. Misread that last time.

Jergmo
2010-10-09, 01:49 PM
My players are currently in a similar situation - they're currently level 3, and their "Pyramid Head" is a level 2 Corruptor Paladin (Neutral Evil, homebrew rules)/1 Favored Soul/6 Master of Shrouds.

Here's how I showed them he wasn't to be trifled with - they had come into the city through the sewers, immediately set upon by Bloodthirsty Diseased (Libris Mortis) enhanced by Corpsecrafter and Nimble Bones. They ran through the streets away from the increasing horde, and three soldiers tried to usher them over from a rooftop to get a ladder for them, to allow them to join them at their "safe" altitude. But Mr. Master of Shrouds appeared atop the wall behind them, and set four Shadows upon them. By the time they were dead and the shadows started after my players, it was time for them to dematerialize.

Have them watch the Devil chainsaw through a few hapless soldiers and civilians, and you're good to go!

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 01:52 PM
Here's how I showed them he wasn't to be trifled with - they had come into the city through the sewers, immediately set upon by Bloodthirsty Diseased (Libris Mortis) enhanced by Corpsecrafter and Nimble Bones. They ran through the streets away from the increasing horde, and three soldiers tried to usher them over from a rooftop to get a ladder for them, to allow them to join them at their "safe" altitude. But Mr. Master of Shrouds appeared atop the wall behind them, and set four Shadows upon them. By the time they were dead and the shadows started after my players, it was time for them to dematerialize.

I played this scene out in my head like a God of War cutscene. It was awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Jergmo
2010-10-09, 02:04 PM
I played this scene out in my head like a God of War cutscene. It was awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, I'm trying to dispel any notions that there's much of a happy ending to be had in the city. We can't forget the Bloodthirsty Diseased child zombies.

Zombie child: human commoner. CR: 1 - Neutral Evil
HP: 11 Init: +1 AC: 13 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+1) or slam +2 melee (1d4+1)
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +1, Will +2
Str 13, Dex 12, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness, Improved Critical (bite)
Blood drain, disease, DR 5/slashing, single actions only

I discussed what stats a child should have with one of my players. So he asked me "so children are going to take arms up too, then?"

They haven't seen any child zombies yet. :smallsmile:

Necromantic Focused Fell Animate Contagion cast on a bunch of 1st level Corruption domain (LoM) clerics who spread throughout the city? *Cackles madly*

7 out of 10 commoners turned into zombies, the only real downside being that the vast majority of them are uncontrolled.

IncoherentEssay
2010-10-09, 02:04 PM
I don't use flaws (partially because I think Disability Superpowers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisabilitySuperpower) are stupid, and partially because I still have no clue where they come from. They sure as hell aren't Core.), and an Advanced Kyton is a bit overkill, considering that any stronger and it'll get Fridge Logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic)-y as to how the hell the Templar bound it in the first place.

Regardless, no matter how hard they smack it, it's pretty much impossible for them to do any real harm to this thing. (They have no access to silver or blessed weapons at all without moving to a different city altogether. So, 7 damage/round being completely worthless, and failure to hit at least that each round means he heals... :smallamused:)

And if by some miracle they actually knock it unconcious and Coup de Grace the bastard, then bloody hell that was awesome, you get eight kajillion XP!

The Flaw Slow cuts it's landspeed in half, mostly so the party can run the heck away if they try to hit it and realise how stupid they were in time :smallamused:. Still, drop Alertness and the flaw can go away. Now they just need to run faster.

Advancement doesn't really add anything to it's offense, just makes it even more of an Implacable Man. A band of lvl 4-6 paladins could still smite it into oblivion, so Fridge Logic doesn't quite come to play. Kytons hit for less damage than bog-standard MM Orc warriors, after all. Less of a blender and more of an Iron Wall.

If nothing else, give it Diehard just to save the Kyton the embarassment of the party dragging it around and poking it with a scythe until they find enough water to drown it :smalltongue:, just in case they get a series of lucky rolls.
That would seriously undermine all the effort in fostering healthy survival instincts :smallwink:.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 02:22 PM
If nothing else, give it Diehard just to save the Kyton the embarassment of the party dragging it around and poking it with a scythe until they find enough water to drown it :smalltongue:, just in case they get a series of lucky rolls.
That would seriously undermine all the effort in fostering healthy survival instincts :smallwink:.

Considering it only takes nonlethal damage, Diehard would mean it just never drops, ever, right? :smallconfused::smallamused::smallbiggrin:

As for drowning... to Outsiders even need to breathe? :smallconfused:

IncoherentEssay
2010-10-09, 02:27 PM
Considering it only takes nonlethal damage, Diehard would mean it just never drops, ever, right? :smallconfused::smallamused::smallbiggrin:

As for drowning... to Outsiders even need to breathe? :smallconfused:

Yep, never drops :smallbiggrin:. Though there IS some fuzzy interaction inbetween nonlethal damage and unconsciousness, as Diehard was written with players in mind. But as long as 'having more nonlethal damage than hp' and 'reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points' are considered equal for it, it works.
The other reading would lead to silly things like Frenzied Berserkers soaking 1000+ lethal damage, but falling over from a tap on the head afterwards.

Had to check for it but yes, they do need to breathe. Too bad :smallsigh:.

Snake-Aes
2010-10-09, 02:42 PM
How adept is your group at imagining how their characters think? Most of the video game immortality stupidity comes from the lack of that, which kills most options that aren't "the big bad really did thrash you, now take this deus ex and run with your tail between your legs"

Arbane
2010-10-09, 08:24 PM
Put up appropriate warnings, and if the PCs try to fight it, let it slaughter them all?

The players can always roll up more.

(Certainly not a GOOD option, but one you should keep in mind.)

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 10:24 PM
Well, I used a mix of "curb stomp enemies the PCs have trouble with" and "Implacable Man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImplacableMan)." The operation was a success. A bit too much so.

While the PCs were sleeping in an abandoned smelting plant, they heard the sounds of a fight outside. Opening the door to investigate, they saw the Chained Man in combat with three Ghouls. After watching it cut down two of them in the same round, and the third the next, one decided to run down the street and the others went back into the smelting plant. Since they were closer, the Chained Man decided to go after the ones in the building. So, they escaped out one of the back windows, but the Chained Man followed them.

Despite generating a fairly good gap between them and certain death, the PCs ran straight for the warehouse district, where the survivors of the undead invasion were camped out. When the survivors denied them shelter, they hid next door. Unfortunately, the Chained Man followed where it last knew their trail to be, and slaughtered all of the survivors. The next morning (after the Chained Man had left), they decided to grab a rowboat and get the hell out of town.

So yes, pants wetting successfully ensued, but now I need to make up their next location. So, simultaneous glee and irritation.

Randel
2010-10-09, 11:10 PM
This is probably too late but I was about to suggest showing what happens to those it doesn't kill outright.

Maybe occasionally it deals out nonlethal damage to just beat people into unconciousness and then drags them back to somewhere where it can torment them at its leisure before killing them or letting them go (one thing about being an unstoppable murder machine is that if you don't leave survivors then you don't get to see the looks of utter fear in the eyes of people who actually have an idea of what they are going up against).

So, maybe it slaughters everything in its path except for occasionally sparing someone just so it can scare the living hell out of them, or torture them, or tie them up and make them watch it kill all their loved ones and then leave them sobbing among the bodies before it wanders off. That way if one of the PCs does decide to attack it then you can have the monster beat them to within an inch of their lives, take all their stuff (if it even cares about that), toy with them for a bit, and then toss them in a dumpster before wandering off. Maybe it mumbles something like 'not worth the effort' as it leaves and gives that PC a wicked smile the next time they run into eachother.

The best part about beating an enemy to within an inch of its life and leaving them alive is that next time if they attack you then they'll hopefully put up an interesting fight. Plus, you get XP for beating them twice!

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 11:13 PM
Plus, you get XP for beating them twice!

Speaking of which, should I give these guys XP for survivng this incident? The party Rogue/Cleric also ran into a Ghoul during her escape, but just cast Hide From Undead (Ghoul failed his save) and ran like hell.

Jergmo
2010-10-09, 11:33 PM
Speaking of which, should I give these guys XP for survivng this incident? The party Rogue/Cleric also ran into a Ghoul during her escape, but just cast Hide From Undead (Ghoul failed his save) and ran like hell.

At least partial XP should be given for a situation where they had to use up party resources, I'd think.

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 11:43 PM
At least partial XP should be given for a situation where they had to use up party resources, I'd think.

So, 2 Arrows, an Entangle spell, and a Hide From Undead spell.

It'd have to be pretty ad hoc, since even a 10% xp from the Kyton would be... *looks it up* ...360, actually. Not totally insane.

Jergmo
2010-10-09, 11:46 PM
So, 2 Arrows, an Entangle spell, and a Hide From Undead spell.

It'd have to be pretty ad hoc, since even a 10% xp from the Kyton would be... *looks it up* ...360, actually. Not totally insane.

Perhaps the XP that would be earned from the Ghoul, as well as the price in what was used in XP? So that's...50 XP for the spells, plus 75 for the ghoul if it's a standard, four-person party. For a total of 125 XP. Not bad.

Greenish
2010-10-09, 11:46 PM
It'd have to be pretty ad hoc, since even a 10% xp from the Kyton would be... *looks it up* ...360, actually. Not totally insane.Well, they certainly completed the objective of the encounter (running faster than the enemy). :smallwink:

Drakevarg
2010-10-09, 11:53 PM
Perhaps the XP that would be earned from the Ghoul, as well as the price in what was used in XP? So that's...50 XP for the spells, plus 75 for the ghoul if it's a standard, four-person party. For a total of 125 XP. Not bad.

Well, the Ghoul was dealt with by only one player (the Rogue/Cleric, who was seperated from the party), so she'd get it's XP all to herself.

I think I'll go with... 1/4 of the Kyton's "proper" XP divided amongst all players, and 1/4 of the Ghoul's XP to the Rogue/Cleric alone.

Logic (if you can call it that.): /2 because they didn't "beat" it so much as "survive" it. /2 again because I'm an ******* DM and only give out 50% XP anyway.

Although... violence doesn't always need to be the answer (indeed half the point of the campaign is that it's quite the opposite). So I'll just cut in half due to slow progression, but not due to a nonviolent solution to victory.