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Tharck
2010-10-14, 09:49 AM
Alright so according to the Duke of URL - and to which I agree - extra +2d6 dice for Eldritch Blast from a magical item do not add to the normal dice. Thus those 2d6 cannot be enhanced by critical hits, Empower SLA, or Maximize SLA. Unfortunatly my bull-headed friend refuses to acknowledge this as a rule, anyone have the text to where this rule is stated supporting Duke of URL's factual statement regarding the RAW?

Dracons
2010-10-14, 10:12 AM
Hmm. Not sure. Should be in PHB, as it's like sneak attack which isn't critible.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-14, 10:18 AM
It depends on exact wording. If it says "Your eldritch blast does an additional 2d6 damage" or similar, then it works exactly as normal.

If it says something like "add 2d6 fire damage to your eldritch blast", then it does not. Precedent comes from the energy enhancements on weapons.

I don't know the item specifically, but it could be either way. RAW is always dependant upon the details.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 10:32 AM
"Chasuble of Fell Power: This long, embroidered strip of
scarlet cloth is covered with arcane sigils and mystic designs.
Worn over the neck (occupying space on the body as an
amulet), a chasuble of fell power adds 1d6 points of damage
(lesser) or 2d6 points of damage (greater) to any eldritch blast
the wearer invokes, or to any spell the wearer casts that deals
hit point damage and has the chaotic descriptor."

Alright thanks.

So it follows this rule:
Additional Damage Dice: Some magic weapons deal additional
dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional
dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a
critical hit. - DMG pg, 221

Eloel
2010-10-14, 10:33 AM
Chasuble of Fell Power (name check?) and Warlock's Scepter adds directly to EB damage. You can multiply that with crit.

Edit: Swordsage'd by OP...

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 10:38 AM
From the SRD on Actions In Combat:


Critical Hits

When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your targetís Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if itís a critical hit, you immediately make a critical rollóanother attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the targetís AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesnít need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ◊2.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weaponís normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

As noted above, all of this hinges on the item's description, which in this case, states:

a chasuble of fell power adds 1d6 points of damage (lesser) or 2d6 points of damage (greater) to any eldritch blast the wearer invokes

That description defines it as extra damage dice, as they are added to the eldritch blast, not increasing the eldritch blast itself.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 10:40 AM
Thank you Tym and Duke. Appreciate the clarity and helping me wrap this into more convincing words for him.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 10:41 AM
Now as for Empower SPA and Maximize SPA this also remains the case Duke? I've seen the ruling on Critical Hits but is there something similar for Feats?

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 10:44 AM
Since the extra damage is added to the eldritch blast. the eldritch blast is handled as normal, then the extra dice are added. Empower/Maximize would apply to the eldritch blast itself, with extra damage dice added later.

I can't find a RAW section on this in particular, it just logically follows from the idea of "extra dice" and critical hits. The SLAs affect the eldritch blast itself, not other magical effects affecting the eldritch blast.

Eloel
2010-10-14, 10:48 AM
That description defines it as extra damage dice, as they are added to the eldritch blast, not increasing the eldritch blast itself.

I'd argue that, in that Chasuble increases your Eldritch Blast by 2d6, unlike, say, Flaming Weapon

A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit
which specifies that the damage is dealt on a successul hit - with nothing to do with the base weapon.

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 10:56 AM
I'd argue that, in that Chasuble increases your Eldritch Blast by 2d6, unlike, say, Flaming Weapon

which specifies that the damage is dealt on a successul hit - with nothing to do with the base weapon.

The chasuble adds dice of damage to the eldritch blast. That is extra damage dice. If it had said something to the effect of "your eldritch blast damage is increased by 2d6", that would not be extra damage dice, and would be multiplied in the case of critical hits or the metamagic SLAs.

Chen
2010-10-14, 11:23 AM
The crit case is fairly clear, as was posted. I'm not so sure about the Empower one though. There doesn't appear to be any rule that I can find that doesn't allow extra things that get tacked onto a spell to also be enhanced via metamagic (dice or not). I mean what about things like warmages edge? It gets added to spell damage and presumably would be increased when empowered wouldn't it? Without the caveat that extra dice aren't multiplied I don't see why something that adds extra dice in this case would be any different.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 11:27 AM
This might be a job for Personman or Curmudgeon.

Amphetryon
2010-10-14, 11:44 AM
This might be a job for Personman or Curmudgeon.

Personman, or Person_Man? They're different posters. :smallsmile:

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 11:50 AM
It's up to interpretation. By just saying "adding dice" it's open ended. It doesn't say "adds 2d6 extra damage dice."

It also can be read that the 2d6 dice are independent from the eldritch blast itself, as "add....to eldritch blast" can mean that you resolve the eldritch blast first, then add 2d6.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with letting him empower, maximize, and have it be multiplied by crits.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 12:04 PM
Personman, or Person_Man? They're different posters. :smallsmile:

The cheeseheaded avatar.

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 12:18 PM
It's up to interpretation. By just saying "adding dice" it's open ended. It doesn't say "adds 2d6 extra damage dice."

It also can be read that the 2d6 dice are independent from the eldritch blast itself, as "add....to eldritch blast" can mean that you resolve the eldritch blast first, then add 2d6.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with letting him empower, maximize, and have it be multiplied by crits.

On the crits question, I think it's pretty clear that it counts as extra damage dice. I would think Curmudgeon agrees with me, as the correction I made in the RAW Q&A thread as a result of his PM to me was to specifically label it as "extra damage dice".

Empower/Maximize SLA is a different story. There doesn't seem to be a rule or precedent to fall back on, so it comes down to RAI and logic. The most sensible ruling in that vein is that if the item provides extra damage dice, then those are tacked on after other modifications to the invocation.

All of the rules arguments aside, allowing the extra damage to multiply on a crit or via the Empower/Maximize SLA feats will not break a game, so a specific referee ruling either way doesn't affect the mulitverse's balance of power.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 12:29 PM
On the crits question, I think it's pretty clear that it counts as extra damage dice. I would think Curmudgeon agrees with me, as the correction I made in the RAW Q&A thread as a result of his PM to me was to specifically label it as "extra damage dice".

I disagree that it's clear, I think it's completely ambiguous and entirely subject to interpretation. However, I strongly lean toward it not being extra damage, for the following reason:

Nearly all instances of damage not modified by critical hits have the word "extra," Rogue sneak attack, flaming weapons, etc. The Chasuble of Fell power more closely resembles the wording of the Power Attack feat, which states that you "add the same number to melee damage rolls." Power Attack is multiplied on critical hits, so by reasonable extrapolation the damage offered by the Chasuble can be multiplied.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 12:34 PM
Power Attack doesn't deal extra dice damage. It just adds damage so it's unlike anything else that adds dice damage.

Keld Denar
2010-10-14, 12:41 PM
Yea, its more like Powerful Charge than Power Attack. Powerful Charge wouldn't muliply on a crit.

Another analogy you could draw would be say...sneak attacking with a weaponlike spell. If you Maximize a Lesser Orb of Acid (assuming CL10) it'll do 40 points of damage. If you are an Arcane Tricksterish character with 2d6 SA, your Maximized Lesser Orb of Acid would deal 40+2d6 damage, not 52 damage.

Similarly, if you are a Warlock with a Chausable of Fell Powah with 10d6 base EB + 2d6 from the item, a Maximized SLA would deal 60+2d6 damage, rather than 72 damage.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 12:41 PM
Power Attack doesn't deal extra dice damage. It just adds damage so it's unlike anything else that adds dice damage.

By that logic, enlarging a fighter with a greatsword would disqualify the d6 gained from the enlarge to be multiplied.

Eldritch Blast with the Chasuble of Fell Power doesn't deal "extra" dice damage, either, by RAW.

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 12:48 PM
By that logic, enlarging a fighter with a greatsword would disqualify the d6 gained from the enlarge to be multiplied.

Nonsense. The weapon's base damage is increased by virtue of its physical change. Enlarge person doesn't add +1d6 damage, it changes the weapon itself.


Eldritch Blast with the Chasuble of Fell Power doesn't deal "extra" dice damage, either, by RAW.

It adds dice of damage to an attack. As there is no precedent for this being anything other than "extra damage dice", the specific wording isn't relevant, especially since the corresponding rules text on critical hits does not say that it requires specific wording.


Extra damage dice over and above a weaponís normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-14, 12:50 PM
The chasuble adds dice of damage to the eldritch blast. That is extra damage dice. If it had said something to the effect of "your eldritch blast damage is increased by 2d6", that would not be extra damage dice, and would be multiplied in the case of critical hits or the metamagic SLAs.

Those words are interchangeable. Now that I see the exact wording, it's clear that the damage is added directly to eldritch blast, and is not an additional and seperate effect like sneak attack or weapon enchantment effects.

Also note that rules applying to weapons do not apply directly to eldritch blast, as it is not a weapon at all times(though when used as per the usual glaivelock, it would obviously).

Additionally, note the exact wording of weapons such as flaming, frost, etc. It's "this weapon deals an extra 1d6 of x damage". That is extra damage die, by definition and example. If it does not include the word extra, you can't draw a parallel to the energy weapon enchantments to support your case.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 12:51 PM
By that logic, enlarging a fighter with a greatsword would disqualify the d6 gained from the enlarge to be multiplied.

That's an entirely different point all together since that changes weapon damage, it doesn't simply add a d6. Thus a spell that read "all of your d6 now deal d10s instead" is a horse of a different color and hardly encourages authenticity to your point of view.

The Chausible of Power adding or not adding dice as "Extra dice" is what's currently in debate. According to RAW is might be more according to RAI at this moment. But im inclined to agree its extra dice by wording from similiar abilities or items that add more dice and the wording.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 12:55 PM
Those words are interchangeable. Now that I see the exact wording, it's clear that the damage is added directly to eldritch blast, and is not an additional and seperate effect like sneak attack or weapon enchantment effects.

Also note that rules applying to weapons do not apply directly to eldritch blast, as it is not a weapon at all times(though when used as per the usual glaivelock, it would obviously).

Additionally, note the exact wording of weapons such as flaming, frost, etc. It's "this weapon deals an extra 1d6 of x damage". That is extra damage die, by definition and example. If it does not include the word extra, you can't draw a parallel to the energy weapon enchantments to support your case.



WEAPONLIKE SPELLS
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage
functions as a weapon in certain respects, whether the spell
deals normal hit point damage, nonlethal damage, ability
damage, or energy drain.

I would say it's close enough to be under consideration.

Duke of URL
2010-10-14, 12:57 PM
As I said earlier, it really doesn't matter one way or the other. It's not game-breaking to rule the opposite of what I'm saying, and I'm not 100% certain I personally wouldn't rule that way anyway (as the warlock needs at the help it can get).

From a rules standpoint, however, I stand by my answer and the reasoning behind it.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 12:59 PM
Yea, its more like Powerful Charge than Power Attack. Powerful Charge wouldn't muliply on a crit.

Another analogy you could draw would be say...sneak attacking with a weaponlike spell. If you Maximize a Lesser Orb of Acid (assuming CL10) it'll do 40 points of damage. If you are an Arcane Tricksterish character with 2d6 SA, your Maximized Lesser Orb of Acid would deal 40+2d6 damage, not 52 damage.

Similarly, if you are a Warlock with a Chausable of Fell Powah with 10d6 base EB + 2d6 from the item, a Maximized SLA would deal 60+2d6 damage, rather than 72 damage.
Important difference: Powerful Charge states that you deal "extra" damage. The Chasuble does not.


Nonsense. The weapon's base damage is increased by virtue of its physical change. Enlarge person doesn't add +1d6 damage, it changes the weapon itself.
Possibly a bad example, but was the first one I came up with. I could probably do better, but I have to be somewhere.

It adds dice of damage to an attack. As there is no precedent for this being anything other than "extra damage dice", the specific wording isn't relevant, especially since the corresponding rules text on critical hits does not say that it requires specific wording.
There is also no precedent for it to be "extra damage dice." Saying that it absolutely or even "clearly" is extra damage dice is an interpretation unsupported by the RAW. The text reads "extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit." Eldritch Blast does not have "normal damage," it scales infinitely based on level. Based on the text of critical hits and the Chasuble, there is no reason that the dice the chasuble grants should be considered "extra dice."

The question was about RAW, and by RAW there is no support for your claim.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 01:01 PM
So someone could use multiple of them, stacking all the damage up, then critting and multiplying it and maximizing it? Since its an amulet you could craft it as a wonderous item and put it on other slots.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 01:01 PM
So someone could use multiple of them, stacking all the damage up, then critting and multiplying it and maximizing it?

Untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.

Tharck
2010-10-14, 01:03 PM
It doesn't say "Bonus."

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 02:35 PM
It doesn't say "Bonus."

Untyped [insert anything here] from the same source don't stack. For example, temporary hit points from the same source don't stack.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-14, 02:54 PM
Sorry, definitely doesn't stack. However, should you find, or convince your DM to make, additional items that add EB damage, you should have no trouble stacking them together, thanks to the fact that this source is untyped. That's the value. You *may* be able to convince your DM to let you craft a different version of it, paying 150% cost for an unusual bonus or some such. Definitely not guaranteed, though.

If it doesn't say extra dice, it's not clearly extra dice, and thus, not clearly subject to the rule. I understand you're interpretting it as "extra", but there is nothing which defines it as such.

For fun, I present the hellfire warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3).

"A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level."

This even has the word extra in it. How do you interpret that?

Tharck
2010-10-14, 03:11 PM
As extra dice.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-14, 03:12 PM
exactly..."extra dice"

Tyndmyr
2010-10-14, 03:14 PM
As extra dice.

Because of the presence of extra?

Because interpretively, they're not extra in any way. They're merely the standard damage does for the ability called "Hellfire Blast".

You've used exactly the opposite logic to arrive at this conclusion.