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Noedig
2010-10-14, 04:56 PM
Ok so this class looks awesome for melee clerics, but I've got this problem. The class is literally steeped in Necromancy, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. However, Animate Dead is a decidedly evil spell. So my question is:

Does Bone Knight eventually force you into evil?

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-14, 04:58 PM
I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

Mongoose87
2010-10-14, 05:00 PM
It's Eberron. Evil=/= "Evil"

Cicciograna
2010-10-14, 05:09 PM
Eberron is quite flexible on alignment and spell descriptors. The relevant information is on page 35 of Eberron Campaign Setting: the rules state that if you repeatedly cast an Evil spell your alignment could begin to change, but that's not guaranteed.

By the way, this could be an interesting RP issue: your character is well aware that he's dabbling with Evil, and thus sometimes he feels that he has to amend, going on a special quest to right a wrong, donate some money for a Good cause, etcetera.

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 06:44 PM
Basically, if it does, then you can take actions to counteract it. Or continue on as you have been depending upon how evil the people you're thwarting are, and such.

Pechvarry
2010-10-14, 07:20 PM
I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

I love you.

Dracons
2010-10-14, 07:34 PM
I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 07:45 PM
Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

You mean other than the whole bit about how "Dave's being here anymore, man," bit? :smalltongue:

And the bodies of fallen foes being usually left for the crows anyway, so you're cheating the carrion creatures out of some bone marrow.

And of course, long-dead skeletons(or better yet, fossils, then they're all stony) usually don't have any loved-ones who'd care.

Greenish
2010-10-14, 07:55 PM
YAnd of course, long-dead skeletons(or better yet, fossils, then they're all stony) usually don't have any loved-ones who'd care.Animated fossil should be more an animated object rather than an undead, given that it's all stone, just in the shape of bones.

Urpriest
2010-10-14, 08:56 PM
Animated fossil should be more an animated object rather than an undead, given that it's all stone, just in the shape of bones.

There's actually a template for animated fossils in Libris Mortis. I've been intending to homebrew a PrC that makes them...

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-14, 09:07 PM
You could simply avoid using the spells that have the Evil descriptor. We used to have a Lawful Good Necromancer in our party, who never raised a single undead creature.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 09:22 PM
You could simply avoid using the spells that have the Evil descriptor. We used to have a Lawful Good Necromancer in our party, who never raised a single undead creature.

maybe you have a different concept of necromancers... but to me the archetypical necromancer is the guy who goes "Muahahah, rise from your graves my undead minions"

Amphetryon
2010-10-14, 09:45 PM
Maybe he was just born during Dia de los Muertos, giving him an understandable fascination with the subject.

Hague
2010-10-14, 09:50 PM
Depends. Observe necromancy in the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. The dark elves used necromancy as a major part of their religion and that trafficking with fiendish extra-planar entities is not entirely evil either.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 10:14 PM
Maybe he was just born during Dia de los Muertos, giving him an understandable fascination with the subject.

If said necromancer had this fascination, why hasn't he raises any undead?


Depends. Observe necromancy in the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind. The dark elves used necromancy as a major part of their religion and that trafficking with fiendish extra-planar entities is not entirely evil either.

Never said he was evil, just that to me being a necromancer inherently means raising undeads.

Amphetryon
2010-10-14, 10:21 PM
If said necromancer had this fascination, why hasn't he raises any undead?



Never said he was evil, just that to me being a necromancer inherently means raising undeads.

He lacks the appropriate Spellcaster level? His interest is more intellectual?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-14, 10:27 PM
I'll give you that amphetryon, but I stated it was my view on the necromancy

Nanoblack
2010-10-14, 10:44 PM
maybe you have a different concept of necromancers... but to me the archetypical necromancer is the guy who goes "Muahahah, rise from your graves my undead minions"

Thats the thing about archetypes, they're just common examples used to represent something. Just like there are fallen paladins, necromancers may also rise.

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 10:46 PM
To become Batman. :smallcool:

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-14, 11:09 PM
Our LG Necromancer was... interesting, to say the least. He was inflicted with a homebrewed disease that made his flesh rot off, so he was wrapped with a special robe that kept his body intact, like Darth Vader. His character had a very dark image, but he stuck by his Lawful Good alignment and avoided using any spell with the Evil descriptor. He still had some good Necromancy spells he could use; he just never led an army of undead minions.

Coidzor
2010-10-14, 11:29 PM
Sounds like the type that could've done with a Necropolitan in hand.

...Come to think of it, what would a Necropolitan be? With a Cosmo, you've got vodka, triple sec, cranberry, and lime.. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitan_%28cocktail%29)

Noedig
2010-10-15, 12:01 AM
Huh. I may actually have to build a Bone Knight cleric just so I can raise dead to run soup kitchens. They can follow simple instructions right?

"When a person come to the cauldron with a bowl in their hand, use the ladle to get them soup." Too complicated?

Gabe the Bard
2010-10-15, 01:02 AM
"When a person come to the cauldron with a bowl in their hand, use the ladle to get them soup."

You should probably preface that with "Don't eat their brains." :smallwink:

Amiel
2010-10-15, 01:07 AM
For Eberron, as it functions under an extremely grey morality scale, you could remove the evil tag.
I personally don't see why the spell is evil, as it only deals with dead bodies (a neutral imposition; if it were re-animating bodies that had been close to death or forcing its commands upon conscious will then it would be an evil spell; even enchantment spells aren't all "evil".

Leon
2010-10-15, 01:22 AM
I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

Its good, you have to get the ingredients for the soup somewhere and if you run orphanages its made easy...

LordBlades
2010-10-15, 01:25 AM
You should probably preface that with "Don't eat their brains." :smallwink:

Skeletons being mindless and such, they probably won't eat somebody's brains unless specifically told to:smallbiggrin:

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-15, 01:34 AM
Ok so this class looks awesome for melee clerics, but I've got this problem. The class is literally steeped in Necromancy, which in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. However, Animate Dead is a decidedly evil spell. So my question is:

Does Bone Knight eventually force you into evil?

No, it doesn't. The class is designed for Eberron, which is not constrained by the "omg, undedz are teh evulz" thing. The class is explicitly designed for alignments ranging the full scale.

Indeed, you can totally be Lawful Good and go all Karrnathi paladin as a Bone Knight. The Karrns don't see necromancy as such a bad thing. Recruiting posters say something like "Serve your country! Twice!" and people are all for it. It's an honor to keep fighting for your country, even beyond death. Bonus points because their zombies/skeletons are intelligent. And now that the war is over, it seriously is not actually all that unexpected for an undead work force to engage in war relief, such as building orphanages and soup kitchens. And the Karrns are led by a vampire king who is the one guy advocating for lasting peace in Khorvaire.


Skeletons being mindless and such, they probably won't eat somebody's brains unless specifically told to:smallbiggrin:

A Bone Knight can also create intelligent undead whenever he feels like it. It's a class feature called "Fill the Ranks." They prefer patriotism to brains, though.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-15, 02:21 AM
Did you get permission from the original owners and/or loved ones? Even if your running a soup kitchen with bone soup, doesn't make it right your forcing someone body against their will to do what you want. Besides, what if they hate kids?

The original owner isn't using the body any more - he's gone and he ain't coming back (and even if he is, resurrection works just fine on a skeleton, animated or otherwise). As far as the loved ones go, the body isn't their property, now is it? The skeleton is literally just a construct running off of negative energy instead of an elemental force. It's no more evil than making a clay golem run a soup kitchen, and MUCH more efficient.

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 02:35 AM
Depending upon how the DM decides to interpret elemental spirits, potentially much less evil than the golem.

SilverLeaf167
2010-10-15, 02:36 AM
Undead are considered evil mostly thanks to "flower hat grannies" (a Finnish term, sort-of-means "old woman who complains about everything"). The same kind of people who think video games cause violence, that all teenagers are arrogant punks and that Dungeons and Dragons is the devil*.

*Geez, that still makes me laugh.:smalltongue:

Awnetu
2010-10-15, 09:38 AM
Undead are considered evil mostly thanks to "flower hat grannies" (a Finnish term, sort-of-means "old woman who complains about everything"). The same kind of people who think video games cause violence, that all teenagers are arrogant punks and that Dungeons and Dragons is the devil*.

*Geez, that still makes me laugh.:smalltongue:

Hey! Dungeons and Dragons told me that I was ready for 'true' power so I could dominate my dad and make him buy me 200$ of D&D accessories. Then, with this true power, I could play D&D solo! Heck yea!

Greenish
2010-10-15, 10:01 AM
Undead are considered evil mostly thanks to "flower hat grannies" (a Finnish term, sort-of-means "old woman who complains about everything"). The same kind of people who think video games cause violence, that all teenagers are arrogant punks and that Dungeons and Dragons is the devil.Now I can't stop imagining Jack Chick with a floral bonnet. Thanks a lot.

Mongoose87
2010-10-15, 10:33 AM
Indeed, you can totally be Lawful Good and go all Karrnathi paladin as a Bone Knight.

Actually, IIRC, though it doesn't force you to be evil, I believe Paladins automatically fall, if they enter that class.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-15, 11:04 AM
Actually, IIRC, though it doesn't force you to be evil, I believe Paladins automatically fall, if they enter that class.

Close, but not quite. You're correct in that it stops you from continuing to progress as a Paladin (but then again... so does any kind of multiclassing from Paladin). Indeed, with the noted exception below, it works just like if you had multiclassed from Paladin.

In Eberron, where Alignment is actually a bit more fleshed out as an actual force rather than just imposing the DM's moral judgments on the world as a sort of omniscient thing, the kind of energy you channel matters, and that's why, for example, a Vol community leader priestess with a heart of gold would still ping on the Detect Evil meter. Mindless undead don't ping as Evil because they actually want to eat your children, but because they've got negative energy coursing through their bodies. Likewise, a completely corrupt and unspeakably evil cleric of the Silver Flame would still give off a powerful aura of Lawful Good because he's still channeling those energies. It has nothing to do with alignment, it has everything to do with changing the kind of energies you use.

A Bone Knight who transfers from Paladin retains access to divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, and spellcasting. They replace their special mount with a skeletal version. You do, however, lose your ability to Smite Evil because that requires channeling pure positive energy that would bother your undead side. And you can't continue progressing in Paladin levels after you take Bone Knight.

Doesn't mean you can't still be an upstanding Lawful Good sort of guy. Though the flavor of the class would have you being devoted to nationalism, rather than a god.

Of course, this is all irrelevant if you're not playing in Eberron. In which case, do whatever's appropriate for the setting you're playing in.

Person_Man
2010-10-15, 11:33 AM
I'd discuss it with your DM, personally, especially since many folks (myself included) are of the opinion that Animate Dead isn't actually evil. I mean, if my army of skeletons runs soup kitchens and builds orphanages, what's the problem?

OK, now I insist we brainstorm names for my future skeleton run soup kitchen, orphanage, and social services organization. Off the top of my head:

Second Chances
Not Fully United Way
Last Good Will and Testament
We Jas Charities

Pechvarry
2010-10-15, 11:38 AM
OK, now I insist we brainstorm names for my future skeleton run soup kitchen, orphanage, and social services organization. Off the top of my head:

Second Chances
Not Fully United Way
Last Good Will and Testament
We Jas Charities


Need a motto, too. "Stick with the bones, and it'll stick to your bones." and so on.

Amphetryon
2010-10-15, 11:43 AM
OK, now I insist we brainstorm names for my future skeleton run soup kitchen, orphanage, and social services organization. Off the top of my head:

Second Chances
Not Fully United Way
Last Good Will and Testament
We Jas Charities


Harga's House of Ribs: Bar-b-q, stock, and repair.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-15, 03:39 PM
Keep in mind as well that the default (that, is, non-FR) paladin is gods-optional; you needn't worship anything at all.

AslanCross
2010-10-15, 04:50 PM
You have to remember that in Eberron, an entire nation used undead as soldiers---not surprisingly, the Bone Knight is from here. It's still debatable among the Karrnathi populace whether or not using undead was a good move, but they ended up having to do it out of necessity, and not so much puppy-kicking evil.

Of course, that's not to say that the Church of the Silver Flame will like you for hanging out with your skeleton buddies.

Amphetryon
2010-10-15, 07:45 PM
You have to remember that in Eberron, an entire nation used undead as soldiers---not surprisingly, the Bone Knight is from here. It's still debatable among the Karrnathi populace whether or not using undead was a good move, but they ended up having to do it out of necessity, and not so much puppy-kicking evil.

Of course, that's not to say that the Church of the Silver Flame will like you for hanging out with your skeleton buddies.And it's clear that the Church of the Silver Flame is filled with goodness, puppy dogs and sunshine. Just ask the Shifters if you need proof. :smallwink:

AslanCross
2010-10-15, 08:29 PM
And it's clear that the Church of the Silver Flame is filled with goodness, puppy dogs and sunshine. Just ask the Shifters if you need proof. :smallwink:

That's Eberron for you. To the point, though, they actually did hire shifters at one point (to infiltrate the lycanthrope enclaves) and some tried to make a distinction between the blood-drinking, puppy-kicking CE werewolves and the upstanding, law-abiding werebears (Imagine an evil thug becoming nice and heroic when the moons come out!), but those guys got shouted down on the account of lycanthropy being a alignment-altering disease.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-15, 08:33 PM
That's Eberron for you. To the point, though, they actually did hire shifters at one point (to infiltrate the lycanthrope enclaves) and some tried to make a distinction between the blood-drinking, puppy-kicking CE werewolves and the upstanding, law-abiding werebears (Imagine an evil thug becoming nice and heroic when the moons come out!), but those guys got shouted down on the account of lycanthropy being a alignment-altering disease.

This is something specifically covered. Lycanthropy does not alter alignment differently for different kinds of lycanthropes in Eberron. It details the way it alters behavior, however. It mostly makes people more feral and dangerous. Like rabies for humans, except it makes people powerful enough to wipe out small settlements.

Werebears are not nicer than werewolves. They'll still bite something like half the nights of a month (Eberron gets full moons a lot, because it has a lot of moons) and spread a plague that was consuming western Khorvaire. Considering the lycanthrope purge to be a straight out bad thing on the part of the Silver Flame is a rather unfair and overly simplistic view of things.

Lycanthropes aren't the only ones to throw alignment-by-species silliness out the door. Looking at the NPCs of the celestial (or fiendish) varieties, you see folks running the full gamut of alignments even there.

I wonder why people seem to want to force black and white morality on a setting that offers so much more. :smallconfused:

Coidzor
2010-10-15, 11:42 PM
Well, Thrane is sort of set up to provoke knee-jerk reactions based upon the real-world parallels it calls to mind.

Thrane and Riedra alone have... all kinds of unfortunate implication parallels. As does Xen'drik for that matter.

AslanCross
2010-10-16, 12:00 AM
This is something specifically covered. Lycanthropy does not alter alignment differently for different kinds of lycanthropes in Eberron. It details the way it alters behavior, however. It mostly makes people more feral and dangerous. Like rabies for humans, except it makes people powerful enough to wipe out small settlements.

Werebears are not nicer than werewolves. They'll still bite something like half the nights of a month (Eberron gets full moons a lot, because it has a lot of moons) and spread a plague that was consuming western Khorvaire. Considering the lycanthrope purge to be a straight out bad thing on the part of the Silver Flame is a rather unfair and overly simplistic view of things.

Lycanthropes aren't the only ones to throw alignment-by-species silliness out the door. Looking at the NPCs of the celestial (or fiendish) varieties, you see folks running the full gamut of alignments even there.

I wonder why people seem to want to force black and white morality on a setting that offers so much more. :smallconfused:

Is this directed at me? I know that the lycanthropy plague was a horrific event. While I admit to not knowing the lycanthropy disease didn't make werebears lawful good, I didn't say anything about forcing black-and-white morality into Eberron of all places.

It's my favorite setting, and the Silver Flame is probably my favorite religion in the setting to use as a DM for its flexibility.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 06:01 AM
Oh yes, just to quote a source:


In Eberron, the alignment of a lycanthrope is not linked to her animal form. A werebear can be evil and a werewolf can be good.

Keith Baker, Dragonshards Archive, "Lycanthropes and the Purge"

It's mentioned all over, though.


Under the best circumstances, the bite of a lycanthrope means a loss of identity; in the worst, it can make a good person into a vicious killer.

It is absolutely a personality changing disease, just no so much in terms of alignment. Lycanthropy is a kinda jekyl and hyde thing where the moon makes you into a feral, powerful, and ultimately virus spreading creature and in the morning you wake up in a ditch with blood on your hands. And then you have two lycanthropes. Or more.

A full moon trigger means "this is happening every coupla days" in Eberron, because they've got 12 of the things. And the place isn't crawling with high level people like, say, Faerun. A commoner gone lycanthrope is a very dangerous adversary.

It got to a point where entire villages were full of people who became roving bands of hungry virulent monsters when night fell, and even though they might have been good people, the church saw little recourse but to start removing such places from the map. While shifters were caught up in the fire, it's worth noting that at the time that people didn't exactly fully understand what was going on (and indeed, they still don't know where Lycanthropy comes from. It's one of those things in Eberron with many theories and no established answer, like the Mourning). Indeed, the fact that shifters are a widespread race in Eberron with their own distinct cultures is a testament to just how widespread the epidemic was.

This wasn't just some slaughtering of helpless pacifists or anything like that. I imagine it would have been a frightening time for everyone involved. And it is a perfect example of how questions of morality are never clear cut in Eberron. The Paladin has to deal with the issue that on the one hand, Lycanthropes are very real dangers to innocent people, and on the other, that Jekyl isn't such a bad dude.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/foe_gallery/99896.jpg


The battle was long and brutal. Today, many assume that the lycanthropes were hunted prey, fleeing from the overwhelming force of the Church of the Silver Flame. Little could be further from the truth. The typical wereboar is far deadlier than the average templar of the Flame, and even if the soldier defeats his prey, one good bite is all it takes to transfer the curse and create a new wereboar.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 06:12 AM
So, how is lycanthropy's influence on alignment and actions adjudicated in Eberron anyway?

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 06:23 AM
So, how is lycanthropy's influence on alignment and actions adjudicated in Eberron anyway?

I'm not sure I exactly understand your question. Are you asking if there is a hard and fast rule or mechanic about how getting lycanthropy affects your alignment? No. As with real life psychological afflictions, different people are able to handle them in different ways. Nobody said that making the right moral decision was always going to be obvious and easy, and going around with Detect Evil isn't a good way to figure out who you should hit in Eberron. We're talking about a setting where even fiends and celestials run the full gamut of alignments, and where you can ping on the Detect-o-meter without actually ever doing anything Evil (or vice versa).

I'd say the answer would be: You roleplay. And your alignment can change as a result of your actions without specific rules detailing how that happens. In fact, that's how you determined what your alignment was in the first place when you made your character.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 06:47 AM
So... No actual mechanics in Eberron about how the lycanthropes are different, just a quick blurb about how it doesn't change one's alignment to the usual predetermined bit?

AslanCross
2010-10-16, 06:48 AM
So... No actual mechanics in Eberron about how the lycanthropes are different, just a quick blurb about how it doesn't change one's alignment to the usual predetermined bit?

That's pretty much how it is. Same with the dragons.

Zore
2010-10-16, 08:11 AM
Heck, there's a gang of theives in Xen'drik that specifically infect their higher members with rat or dire rat Lycanthropy. They all have had enough control for nobody to have found out yet for whatever reason.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 08:32 AM
So... No actual mechanics in Eberron about how the lycanthropes are different, just a quick blurb about how it doesn't change one's alignment to the usual predetermined bit?

Nope. No actual mechanics for restricting alignment in pretty much any context. What? The Monster Manual says "Always," you say? "Well, screw that noise," says Eberron, "Interesting worlds aren't that simple." Clerics, for example, don't have to be within 1 alignment step of their god. And this is entirely intentional and, in my mind, a very good thing. I think the only thing that actually kept an alignment restriction was the Paladin. You are allowed to be an LG Paladin of an "Evil" or "Chaotic" religion though.


That's pretty much how it is. Same with the dragons.

Yup, being chromatic or metallic says absolutely nothing whatsoever about your alignment in Eberron.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 08:47 AM
Nope. No actual mechanics for restricting alignment in pretty much any context. What? The Monster Manual says "Always," you say? Well, screw that noise, says Eberron. Clerics, for example, don't have to be within 1 alignment step of their god. And this is entirely intentional and, in my mind, a very good thing. I think the only thing that actually kept an alignment restriction was the Paladin. You are allowed to be an LG Paladin of an "Evil" or "Chaotic" religion though.

Yes, yes, I had already gathered that, that's not what I was asking. I was asking about whether it added in additional mechanics to explain how they acted when they were initially infected but before they themselves were aware of their condition because it says they default to the alignment of the lycanthropic animal variety. Or if even those who were aware of their condition went uncontrolled during the full moon or something.

Since, in Eberron, the lycanthropic animals don't have any sort of alignment quality to them, that means either they default to neutral when first transforming before they figure out they're lycanthropes or they... act like an animal of their normal alignment when they transform.

Which raises the question of how mechanically they were a plague at all before conscious spreaders of the disease such as the Ashbound or Children of Winter or something got on the scene.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 08:51 AM
I'm sorry, but I don't see why you need mechanics to resolve any of that. I have never needed mechanics to tell me how to roleplay. Heck, I played freeform for over 8 years before I really got into D&D 3.5e. More if you count playing pretend to an extensive degree as a child.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 08:58 AM
Well, it means that lycanthropic NPCs are... not actually a problem unless they're idiots or outright evil and using this newfound opportunity to try to feast on your liver like they had always wanted to all along.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 09:03 AM
Not following your reasoning at all there, mate. That thing about defaulting to neutral is something you just arbitrarily made up out of nowhere. There is no rule that says anything about defaulting to neutral... or defaulting to anything. What there is is fluff describing a psychological affliction. And the fact that the DM just about always determines what alignment an NPC should be to begin with without the help of any mechanics at all.

Can drugs not make someone more violently aggressive without immediately changing their alignment? Do you as a DM have trouble representing someone with a psychological disorder such as schizophrenia without having rules to tell you how their behavior changes? Can, say, a Vampire be possessed of insatiable lust for human blood without being a morally bad person? After all, not everyone acts on their desires, no matter how strong they are. And heck, can a neutral creature be dangerous? A rabid dog doesn't ping on the Detect-o-meter. Moreover, alignment in Eberron reflects your overall personality, not the mood you're in right now. And so forth. No matter what angle I try to look at the issue from, I just can't see where you're coming from.

People can have personalities without having mechanics dictate those personalities, as opposed to players or DMs. I'm not sure why this is a problem for you. I have absolutely no trouble whatsoever assigning alignments to characters as I please without mechanics telling me what to do. :smallconfused:

137ben
2010-10-16, 09:19 AM
In Eberron, things that are "always" evil are not always evil. That includes chromatic dragons, mindflayers, and liches. If you are using your undead for good, then it is good, not evil.
However, there may be some NPCs who do not approve of undead no matter what, such as paladins of the silver flame.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 09:36 AM
It's Eberron. Evil=/= "Evil"

This sums it up very well. Morally wrong and Evil-aligned are not the same thing in the Eberron setting, any more than pinging on a polygraph test doesn't necessarily mean you're a dishonest person in real life. Alignment doesn't actually correspond to some omniscient absolute moral judgment resulting from you casting a level 1 spell. It corresponds to being aligned with certain types of energy (positive, negative, lawful, chaotic). And while certain aspects of your character might be associated with "Evil," that's like saying that certain things are associated with "lying" on a polygraph test. At least, that's my take on it.

What's really the right thing to do? Well, that's why it's a moral dilemma. And that's one of the major themes of Eberron.

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 09:59 AM
^: Because there's such a moral dilemma about what to do with the brain-eating servants of a group that wants to take all life on the planet and use it as raw materials to make playthings out of.

Or enslaving all sapient life into being repressed and stagnating forever.

Or killing all humans.

And where are you getting that from? Mr. Cardinal Richelu Expy is Evil because of his methods and beliefs, from what I read about the man.


In Eberron, things that are "always" evil are not always evil. That includes chromatic dragons, mindflayers, and liches.

So what are they then, CN? LN? Considering who they work for, I'm not seeing much other than CE considering their goals and desires.

Re: The lycanthropes: Defaulting to neutral was not what I said was obligated to happen, I was merely pointing out that it is one of two possibilities if the lycanthropic creatures don't have inherent alignments. Unless the lycanthropic animal-types do have inherent alignments, they just don't change the actual alignment of the base person, but when they turn into their animal form, they operate under that form's inherent alignment (CE for werewolves, LG for werebears).

So, yeah, I guess that would leave three options actually. They take on an animal's alignment, that is Neutral, when they transform before they're aware of being lycanthropes and act pretty much how an animal would, they retain their normal alignment when they transform into lycanthropes, acting however an animal with that alignment would act, or they take on the alignment proscribed to the lycanthropic animal type but only when uncontrollably transforming from the full moon before they're aware of their condition.


Not following your reasoning at all there, mate. That thing about defaulting to neutral is something you just arbitrarily made up out of nowhere. There is no rule that says anything about defaulting to neutral... or defaulting to anything. What there is is fluff describing a psychological affliction. And the fact that the DM just about always determines what alignment an NPC should be to begin with without the help of any mechanics at all.



The character’s actions during this first episode are dictated by the alignment of its animal form. The character remembers nothing about the entire episode (or subsequent episodes) unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Wisdom check, in which case he becomes aware of his lycanthropic condition. This presumably applies to subsequent episodes before the character is aware of his or her lycanthropy as well.

So, yeah.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 11:32 AM
In Eberron, things that are "always" evil are not always evil. That includes chromatic dragons, mindflayers, and liches.
So what are they then, CN? LN? Considering who they work for, I'm not seeing much other than CE considering their goals and desires. :smallfrown: You just don't get it, do you?

That individual character is whatever alignment that individual character is. Not every member of a race is the same.

Is this really such a difficult proposition for some people to understand? Then again, I guess history would say that it is...

As for mind flayers, I figure they are more likely to work on Blue and Orange (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality) morality rather than Black and White. But there can always be exceptions.

Nanoblack
2010-10-16, 11:42 AM
Unless the lycanthropic animal-types do have inherent alignments, they just don't change the actual alignment of the base person, but when they turn into their animal form, they operate under that form's inherent alignment (CE for werewolves, LG for werebears).


I just love the implications of this! A NE Werebear Ogre who is destroying a village sees that moon, turns into hybrid form and blacks out, and the next morning when he wakes up, he's lying naked next to a freshly built orphanage. :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-10-16, 11:48 AM
:smallfrown: You just don't get it, do you?

That individual character is whatever alignment that individual character is. Not every member of a race is the same.

I was pretty sure that the mindflayers were wedded to said military industrial complex and possibly even made of applied evil madness by their masters. Or at least squids.

So, it doesn't really matter if they have the individual ability to make moral choices if... they're all part of an evil organization and gladly follow its evil whims.

Notice how I didn't care at all about good liches or good chromatic dragons. :smallwink:

Greenish
2010-10-16, 12:44 PM
Not following your reasoning at all there, mate. That thing about defaulting to neutral is something you just arbitrarily made up out of nowhere. There is no rule that says anything about defaulting to neutral... or defaulting to anything. What there is is fluff describing a psychological affliction.And how does that fluff describe them? (I haven't read much of lycanthropy in Eberron.)

Alleine
2010-10-16, 02:05 PM
Not following your reasoning at all there, mate. That thing about defaulting to neutral is something you just arbitrarily made up out of nowhere. There is no rule that says anything about defaulting to neutral... or defaulting to anything. What there is is fluff describing a psychological affliction. And the fact that the DM just about always determines what alignment an NPC should be to begin with without the help of any mechanics at all.

What he's saying is that in vanilla 3.5, if a village became werewolves all of a sudden, they'd go on crazy rampages every full moon. Slaughtering people, burning things, stealing candy, etc. This is why they are bad.

In Eberron this doesn't happen, correct? If it doesn't happen, then why are people becoming lycanthropes such a problem? A village full of werewolves won't suddenly become CE and start eating babies. How then are they posing a danger to the rest of the world if they keep their alignments and act roughly as normal?

Zore
2010-10-16, 02:09 PM
What he's saying is that in vanilla 3.5, if a village became werewolves all of a sudden, they'd go on crazy rampages every full moon. Slaughtering people, burning things, stealing candy, etc. This is why they are bad.

In Eberron this doesn't happen, correct? If it doesn't happen, then why are people becoming lycanthropes such a problem? A village full of werewolves won't suddenly become CE and start eating babies. How then are they posing a danger to the rest of the world if they keep their alignments and act roughly as normal?


In short because Lycanthropy acts as a powerful psychological shock to your system and is like going on a massively behavioral changing hallucinogenic drug. It affects everyone differently, though many became violent and attacked others to infect them. Its not a case of 'now hes evil', its a case of 'now he's can't think correctly and has the body of a magical animal.'

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-16, 02:13 PM
In short because Lycanthropy acts as a powerful psychological shock to your system and is like going on a massively behavioral changing hallucinogenic drug. It affects everyone differently, though many became violent and attacked others to infect them. Its not a case of 'now hes evil', its a case of 'now he's can't think correctly and has the body of a magical animal.'

This.

Something doesn't have to cause someone to become total balls to the wall CE "I want to eat babies just to hear the wailing of their mothers" in 100% of cases in order to be dangerous.


And how does that fluff describe them? (I haven't read much of lycanthropy in Eberron.)

The free Dragonshards article on it by Keith Baker is a good start. Look it up in the 3.5e archive on WotC.

Noedig
2010-10-16, 05:37 PM
Oh hai thread! You've been derailed. But then again, my question was answered. So nevermind.