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Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 07:18 AM
OK,

two conditions give me problems according to the rules the way they are, prone and slowed.

If you stand up from prone it does not provoke an AOO, but moving away does.

If you are slowed you can still charge. All slow does is make your speed 2, which means even if you slow a creature it can attack a creature 4 away.

What do you guys think?

I have a whole bunch of house rules already (what dm doesn't?) but I think I will add no charge on slowed and AOO from standing up from prone.

This will make both conditions more powerful for PCs and monsters, but will probably benefit the monsters more on average. But it will make the fights more fun, or frustrating.

GM

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 07:30 AM
I have a whole bunch of house rules already (what dm doesn't?) but I think I will add no charge on slowed and AOO from standing up from prone.
I think these are good houserules. The slow condition is very weak as written (even funnier, you can still run while slowed to move four squares).

Do note the existence of several builds that can throw enemies prone at will, though.

DiscipleofBob
2010-10-15, 07:34 AM
Unless you have some feats which say otherwise, charging does NOT add any movement to the attack. In fact, if you're slowed, you have to move exactly those 2 squares in order to charge anything. All charging does is give you a +1 bonus on the attack roll of a melee basic attack or bull rush, once again unless you have a power or feat that says otherwise.

Remember that standing up from Prone is a move action. So unless you take another move action to move away, in which case you forfeit your move action for the turn, you aren't moving anywhere else this turn. And if you're a ranged attacker, that monster in melee with you who keeps knocking you prone, is going to take an AoO every time you try to shoot him from point-blank.

The houserules are a problem. The charge houserule literally doesn't change anything, but provoking an AoO unfairly benefits the players, making a lot of their powers broken. All the party has to do is get the controller to knock the solo/elite/brute/soldier/whatever prone and let all the melee guys in the party gather round. Every time the enemy tries to stand up it provokes opportunity attacks from EVERYONE around it.

WickerNipple
2010-10-15, 07:40 AM
Unless you have some feats which say otherwise, charging does NOT add any movement to the attack. In fact, if you're slowed, you have to move exactly those 2 squares in order to charge anything.

He said 4 squares because charging is an Standard Action separate from Moving.

So:
Move: 2 squares + Charge: 2 squares = 4.

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 07:40 AM
Slowed: I kind of took the 'You can't increase your speed above 2' blurb to mean 2 = 2 = 2 (no increases, period).

Prone: Huh. Never noticed that. I guess I was already using that house rule.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 07:40 AM
if you're slowed, you have to move exactly those 2 squares in order to charge anything.
Except if you move + charge or run + charge. The point is that the slowed condition does a pretty bad job at keeping enemies out of melee range.


Remember that standing up from Prone is a move action.It's actually a minor action for anyone who cares about the prone condition in the first place (through cheap boots or a level-2 skill power).


All the party has to do is get the controller to knock the solo/elite/brute/soldier/whatever prone and let all the melee guys in the party gather round. Every time the enemy tries to stand up it provokes opportunity attacks from EVERYONE around it.No, because the enemy can always elect not to stand up and attack from the ground; the penalty for doing so is very small. Also, most controllers cannot throw enemies prone at-will.

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 07:46 AM
Unless you have some feats which say otherwise, charging does NOT add any movement to the attack. In fact, if you're slowed, you have to move exactly those 2 squares in order to charge anything. All charging does is give you a +1 bonus on the attack roll of a melee basic attack or bull rush, once again unless you have a power or feat that says otherwise.

Sorry man, you have the rule mixed up. If you can charge you can make an attack. So if a slowed creature is 2 3 or 4 away from an enemy he can attack them. With my rule a slowed creature would only be able to attack if it could reach the enemy with a single move, and then have a standard or minor for an attack.



Remember that standing up from Prone is a move action. So unless you take another move action to move away, in which case you forfeit your move action for the turn, you aren't moving anywhere else this turn. And if you're a ranged attacker, that monster in melee with you who keeps knocking you prone, is going to take an AoO every time you try to shoot him from point-blank.


People get knocked down in melee all the time, they just stand up and then hit back or charge. Prone hardly does anything except limit maneuverability a bit. My house rule would make it more powerful.



The houserules are a problem. The charge houserule literally doesn't change anything, but provoking an AoO unfairly benefits the players, making a lot of their powers broken. All the party has to do is get the controller to knock the solo/elite/brute/soldier/whatever prone and let all the melee guys in the party gather round. Every time the enemy tries to stand up it provokes opportunity attacks from EVERYONE around it.

Already dealt with the first part. And as regards the fact that you can knock several different kinds of stuffing out of a creature with opportunity attacks if you knock it prone.... so what. As a dm I can knock pcs prone and do the same to them. It becomes a valid tactic. If it makes them better at killing solos all I do is tweak the solos a bit to make it interesting.

When I dm I am not trying to solve math problems (though I could honest) I am not trying to make everything balance (but I think I could) I am trying to make it fun and gritty. If the pcs defeat an enemy because a wizard can knock it on its ass then so what, if they enjoy it I am fine with that.

GM

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 07:48 AM
I think these are good houserules. The slow condition is very weak as written (even funnier, you can still run while slowed to move four squares).

Do note the existence of several builds that can throw enemies prone at will, though.

I look forward to seeing those builds, there is nothing as fun as giving PCs room to be creative.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 07:52 AM
I look forward to seeing those builds, there is nothing as fun as giving PCs room to be creative.
Off the top of my mind, a fighter with a reach weapon, footwork lure, and polearm momentum (with recent errata, this also requires rushing cleats). At will, you attack, shift one square, move the enemy to the square you were in, and throw it prone.

Two common wizard spells (Icy Terrain and Incendiary Detonation) throw a bunch of enemies prone, albeit once per encounter.

Of course, your houserule is balanced by the fact that monsters can throw the PCs prone just as easily. Perhaps you should add that certain monsters (oozes and the like) are immune to the prone condition.

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 07:58 AM
Off the top of my mind, a fighter with a reach weapon, footwork lure, and polearm momentum (with recent errata, this also requires rushing cleats). At will, you attack, shift one square, move the enemy to the square you were in, and throw it prone.

Two common wizard spells (Icy Terrain and Incendiary Detonation) throw a bunch of enemies prone, albeit once per encounter.

Of course, your houserule is balanced by the fact that monsters can throw the PCs prone just as easily. Perhaps you should add that certain monsters (oozes and the like) are immune to the prone condition.

In my campaign setting, I'm using the Bodged Together stuff for IK 4e, and the Bodger has a couple of 'knock prone' encounter powers, as well.

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 08:04 AM
Off the top of my mind, a fighter with a reach weapon, footwork lure, and polearm momentum (with recent errata, this also requires rushing cleats). At will, you attack, shift one square, move the enemy to the square you were in, and throw it prone.

Two common wizard spells (Icy Terrain and Incendiary Detonation) throw a bunch of enemies prone, albeit once per encounter.

Of course, your houserule is balanced by the fact that monsters can throw the PCs prone just as easily. Perhaps you should add that certain monsters (oozes and the like) are immune to the prone condition.

The immunity to prone is a good idea. For oozes and the like it makes sense.

Sipex
2010-10-15, 08:07 AM
I used to have Prone to Standing provoke opportunity attacks until the party rogue spent an entire encounter on the ground and caused me to re-read the rules. He did not have much fun at all during that encounter.

Just remember, talk to your party about it first. If they all hate it then why throw it in? Your primary goal should be the enjoyment of everyone.

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 08:09 AM
I used to have Prone to Standing provoke opportunity attacks until the party rogue spent an entire encounter on the ground and caused me to re-read the rules. He did not have much fun at all during that encounter.

Just remember, talk to your party about it first. If they all hate it then why throw it in? Your primary goal should be the enjoyment of everyone.

I definitely agree with that. the rules I use I propose and I guess as DM my opinion has more weight, but it does not stop the PCs from changing things on me.

As regards the rogue though, we have had many encounters that have been frustrating for inividual players without being caused by house rules. Being dazed for example, if the same guy gets hit by dazed every turn, he gets to do nothing.

Sipex
2010-10-15, 08:15 AM
I haven't run into enemies which can daze that often so I'm not sure how I'd handle that situation. Probably try to vary it up who gets dazed and how often.

Also, I just realised, we live in the same city! I just thought I'd mention it because it's really hard to find others who live here just randomly on the net.

Meta
2010-10-15, 08:21 AM
so any fighter now has the ability to keep monster's prone all encounter as long as he keeps hitting on these stand up AoO? With Combat Challenge halting movement like that I think you might be hurting the excitement of the game.

Also there's a level 29 druid daily that provides a summon that can make AoO on prone foes trying to stand. A controller capstone power. That shows just how nasty this perspective houserule is in terms of balance.

I had to rush this response due to class, I'll come back and add some more later

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 08:23 AM
so any fighter now has the ability to keep monster's prone all encounter as long as he keeps hitting on these stand up AoO? With Combat Challenge halting movement like that I think you might be hurting the excitement of the game.

Also there's a level 29 druid daily that provides a summon that can make AoO on prone foes trying to stand. A controller capstone power. That shows just how nasty this perspective houserule is in terms of balance.

I had to rush this response due to class, I'll come back and add some more later

Just because you get hit by the OA doesn't mean you don't finish getting up. Once you get up, you can still throw away an action to GTFO, and provoke another OA.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 08:25 AM
so any fighter now has the ability to keep monster's prone all encounter as long as he keeps hitting on these stand up AoO?No, because an OA is a melee basic attack: it is neither an at-will attack, nor a combat challenge attack. Also, that's not "any fighter" but "one highly specific fighter build".


Also there's a level 29 druid daily that provides a summon that can make AoO on prone foes trying to stand.I'm going to hazard the guess that the OP's campaign isn't anywhere near that level.

Meta
2010-10-15, 08:30 AM
No, because an OA is a melee basic attack: it is neither an at-will attack, nor a combat challenge attack.

I'm going to hazard the guess that the OP's campaign isn't anywhere near that level.

If he's changing the rules on what causes AoO i would assume that prone may now provoke that sort of thing. You could houserule around it just something to consider.

And what the OP's level is irrelevant to my comment. The fact that recursive knocking prone isn't available in very many places in the game and the single last power a controller gets grants it for just one encounter a day should be a good indicator that you are greatly skewing the balance of the game.

Which is fine if you're prepared to deal with the consequences of such a change

AtwasAwamps
2010-10-15, 08:30 AM
Just because you get hit by the OA doesn't mean you don't finish getting up. Once you get up, you can still throw away an action to GTFO, and provoke another OA.

Actually...that depends.

A fighter with Combat Superiority stops movement if he hits with an opportunity attack. Getting up from prone is a move action. It could be argued that he stops you from standing up under these rules.

Playing as a fighter in a game currently, I'll tell you right now that this seems horribly unbalanced to me. It is possibly less so if you don't have a fighter in the group or someone who can use powerful at wills as basic melees, at least.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 08:34 AM
The fact that recursive knocking prone isn't available in very many places in the game
and the fact is that the OP's proposed rule doesn't allow it either.

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 08:37 AM
Actually...that depends.

A fighter with Combat Superiority stops movement if he hits with an opportunity attack. Getting up from prone is a move action. It could be argued that he stops you from standing up under these rules.

Playing as a fighter in a game currently, I'll tell you right now that this seems horribly unbalanced to me. It is possibly less so if you don't have a fighter in the group or someone who can use powerful at wills as basic melees, at least.

I can see your point, but my view is that getting up (while still a 'move action') isn't movement in the sense that Combat Superiority implies. You don't pass between squares. IMO, in order to 'stop movement' the 'moving' creature would have to be leaving one square and entering another. Staying in the same square isn't really 'movement,' as such.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 08:41 AM
I can see your point, but my view is that getting up (while still a 'move action') isn't movement in the sense that Combat Superiority implies. You don't pass between squares. IMO, in order to 'stop movement' the 'moving' creature would have to be leaving one square and entering another. Staying in the same square isn't really 'movement,' as such.

That is correct. Combat Superiority blocks movement not move actions. This is largely similar to the Immobilized condition (which also blocks movement but not move actions like standing up).

DragonBaneDM
2010-10-15, 08:51 AM
No, because an OA is a melee basic attack: it is neither an at-will attack, nor a combat challenge attack. Also, that's not "any fighter" but "one highly specific fighter build".


It's your basic polearm fighter, actually. Pump up Wis for a good bonus to your OAs, take as many powers that can be used as an OA as possible, grab threatening reach, and then push everyone around a lot.

The only things you add are a glaive and Heavy Blade Oppurtunity so that you can use footwork lure and then have a chance to knock them prone twice a round.

Granted, this build doesn't get good until Paragon Tier, but a fun little build for this class gets ridiculously good at defending and damaging with this homebrew rule.

If you're gonna pass it out, and someone figures this out, start dazing a lot in Paragon, and/or use the aformentioned ooze rule. Otherwise this guy or a Warden with a love for Earthgrasp Strike and the like will run rampant.

Aron Times
2010-10-15, 08:58 AM
Slow reduces all movement modes to a maximum of 2, so even if you run (+2 speed), you can still only move 2 squares. Also, charge only lets you move up to your normal speed and attack, which is limited to 2 squares if you're slowed.

Meta
2010-10-15, 09:23 AM
and the fact is that the OP's proposed rule doesn't allow it either.

It does for anyone with an MBA that knocks prone.

At the end of the day this will alter the inherent balance in your game. If that's what you wish and your games are running better for it, that's great. That said, this is not a house rule that promotes a greater balance in the 4e system

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 09:40 AM
It does for anyone with an MBA that knocks prone.Which excludes 99% of all characters, so I fail to see your point.


At the end of the day this will alter the inherent balance in your game.No, it really won't. Balance is not such a fragile thing that it breaks down under a minor change like this. The Sky Is Not Falling.

Meta
2010-10-15, 09:54 AM
Which excludes 99% of all characters, so I fail to see your point.

No, it really won't. Balance is not such a fragile thing that it breaks down under a minor change like this. The Sky Is Not Falling.

I think you're reading into my statements. I don't say anything about balance breaking. I said balance will be altered. You've taken arguably the best class in the game and given it a significant boost. You've also opened the door to a few abusive builds.

Nowhere do I say the game will break apart so please stop insinuating I'm overreacting to changes in a game I shall never be present in.

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 10:03 AM
I haven't run into enemies which can daze that often so I'm not sure how I'd handle that situation. Probably try to vary it up who gets dazed and how often.

Also, I just realised, we live in the same city! I just thought I'd mention it because it's really hard to find others who live here just randomly on the net.
I play with a small group and they are the only gamers I know in town, w we are all pretty much 40 with kids....

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 10:27 AM
Back to the main thread of the thread.

I would definitely not let the AOO keep the target prone, it is already getting punished for being prone and it affects the combat in a fun way as it makes for more tactical decision making.

As regards people making a character to take advantage of this? So what, I would let them. Sometimes they would get to rock because their character has invested heavily in something and there is nothing wrong with it. As a dm I find that a lot of balance really comes from giving characters a chance to be in the story spotlight, rather than trying to make everyone even in fights. I also design stuff to be challenging to the hero's known weakness and strengths, but I do not gimp them. If a pc in my game can make a skill check because he they are ridiculously good at that skill they make the check and I adapt the game. I do not deny them the ability to rock.

I do not think it is game breaking at all.

Sipex
2010-10-15, 10:39 AM
That is a good philosophy. PCs tend to have more fun when you let them rock.

I personally wouldn't use this rule because my PCs would dislike it but it sounds like yours are the other way around.

Also, I'm part of the younger generation, just settling into careers and getting married sort of thing. The group kind of got together on a whim (and was a pretty big surprise) but yeah, finding gamers here (who aren't college students) is extremely hard.

Worira
2010-10-15, 10:39 AM
Slow reduces all movement modes to a maximum of 2, so even if you run (+2 speed), you can still only move 2 squares. Also, charge only lets you move up to your normal speed and attack, which is limited to 2 squares if you're slowed.

Yes, but you can move 2 squares as a move action, then 2 more as part of a charge.

Anyway, I suspect you'll be seeing an awful lot of flopping around on the ground stabbing things if you implement this rule. Prone already has the effect of granting combat advantage for melee attacks, there's no reason to make it worse.

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 10:50 AM
Yes, but you can move 2 squares as a move action, then 2 more as part of a charge.

Anyway, I suspect you'll be seeing an awful lot of flopping around on the ground stabbing things if you implement this rule. Prone already has the effect of granting combat advantage for melee attacks, there's no reason to make it worse.

Well in our games prone does not do much. That's our experience. You knock someone down, they get up and hit back. Sometimes someone uses the combat advantage before they stand up but not often.

Hell I think it just makes a lot more sense as well.

As regards the flopping around there is a decision to make, stay down, but grant CA or get up and take a hit. I like decisions.

GM

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 11:01 AM
Yes, but you can move 2 squares as a move action, then 2 more as part of a charge.

Well, I went and did it. I put in a question to the WotC site about that, because I don't feel that this is the case, and I want an 'official' answer.

tcrudisi
2010-10-15, 11:20 AM
Except if you move + charge or run + charge. The point is that the slowed condition does a pretty bad job at keeping enemies out of melee range.

Then a change of tactics is in order. Knock the target prone, then shift 1 square away. The target then has a choice: crawl to you, incurring an OA or stand up and then move 1 square. He can't charge as you are too close. He can't attack you, since you are too far away. Prone can be almost as bad as Stun, already.


It's actually a minor action for anyone who cares about the prone condition in the first place (through cheap boots or a level-2 skill power).

Talking about how bad Prone is then pointing out that many people feel it's so bad that they'll spend serious resources (and yes, taking up a major item slot or spending a feat or power on it are serious resources) negating it?


No, because the enemy can always elect not to stand up and attack from the ground; the penalty for doing so is very small. Also, most controllers cannot throw enemies prone at-will.

The penalty for doing so is huge: you are 10% less likely to hit, you don't get a choice for who to hit (because any of the easier to hit targets have shifted out of the way), and your melee foes gets a +10% chance to hit you. Plus, you are stuck in your position (and in 4e, if it's not THE most important, it's certainly one of the most important tactics is putting your character in the right spot, every turn).


The immunity to prone is a good idea. For oozes and the like it makes sense.

I would never do this. (Ready for this faulty logic?) Suddenly, sneak attacking undead or oozes doesn't make sense either. (I feel dirty even using that argument). My point is, only one monster/race I know of has something quasi-resembling a resistance to prone (dwarves). This was done for balance reasons.


As regards the rogue though, we have had many encounters that have been frustrating for inividual players without being caused by house rules. Being dazed for example, if the same guy gets hit by dazed every turn, he gets to do nothing.

Dazed? He gets to do one action. I think you meant to say Stunned. However, Dazed and Prone are already very similar: Prone they lose their Move action. The benefit? They still get their Minor action. However, since Prone is easier to do than Dazed, it's a deadly (and early!) condition in the hands of strategic players.

The Rogue is going toe-to-toe with Monster. The Monster uses a power which knocks the Rogue prone, then the Monster, because he's smart like this, shifts one square away. The Rogue on his turn has a few options:
1) crawl up to the Monster and stab at it (incurring an OA from crawling),
2) stand up (move) and move (standard) to the monster (the rogue does not get to attack barring Minor action attack or Action Point), or
3) stand up and ready an attack.

Those are not good options, at all.
If that same example occurs (except Dazed instead of Prone)?
1) Move up to the Monster.
2) Ready an attack.

Notice how the choices are the same, except there's 1 less: the Rogue does not have the option to crawl up (incurring the OA) and then stabbing. So yes, Dazed is a bad condition, but saying that he gets to do nothing is a bit much. That's exactly where team-work comes in: your controller friend makes a monster give combat advantage to the Rogue... it just means that team-work is required.


Just because you get hit by the OA doesn't mean you don't finish getting up. Once you get up, you can still throw away an action to GTFO, and provoke another OA.

I just wanted to correct this: you would not provoke another OA. You only get one OA per combatant's turn, so if you spent it when the monster was standing up, you don't get to spend another one when he charges away or uses a ranged attack in melee.


Well in our games prone does not do much. That's our experience. You knock someone down, they get up and hit back. Sometimes someone uses the combat advantage before they stand up but not often.

As regards the flopping around there is a decision to make, stay down, but grant CA (and be at -2 with all of its attacks due to attacking from prone) or get up and take a hit. I like decisions.

See above for how I told you how to use Prone to screw over monsters. It works. When the party works together properly, then Prone becomes a condition that literally says, "hahaha - screw you monster, I've knocked you down on the ground and now you can't do anything."

You can always have your Fighter (in this case, the "character that knocks monsters prone") hold init until right after that monster, then knock it prone. Then there is an entire round of proned monster combat advantage beat-down, followed by everyone shifting one square out so the monster loses it's next turn.

As you can tell, I firmly believe that Prone is a strong enough condition, as is. When used well, it causes the opponent to lose their turn. When used poorly, the monster just stands up and attacks anyway. Personally, I like to reward my players for playing well, and I feel that Prone does that beautifully. I would not want to increase the power of Prone just because my players were not utilizing it to the maximum potential.

/edit for DSmiles -- It's a matter of being able to take both a move action and a standard action in a single turn. You can take the move action to move up to 2 squares and then take a standard action to charge 2 squares. Just like in a normal turn you can move 6 squares and then charge 6 squares.

dsmiles
2010-10-15, 11:24 AM
I just wanted to correct this: you would not provoke another OA. You only get one OA per combatant's turn, so if you spent it when the monster was standing up, you don't get to spend another one when he charges away or uses a ranged attack in melee.

My bad. I must be thinking 3.5 where it was one per incident. Or maybe that was a houserule. Whatever, that's what houserules are for. :smallsmile:

tcrudisi
2010-10-15, 11:28 AM
My bad. I must be thinking 3.5 where it was one per incident. Or maybe that was a houserule. Whatever, that's what houserules are for. :smallsmile:

If you use that as a house-rule, then great. I just wanted to correct it in case anyone lurking mistook it as a core rule. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2010-10-15, 11:32 AM
Then a change of tactics is in order. Knock the target prone, then shift 1 square away. The target then has a choice: crawl to you, incurring an OA or stand up and then move 1 square. He can't charge as you are too close. He can't attack you, since you are too far away. Prone can be almost as bad as Stun, already.Crawling to someone doesn't provoke; crawling away from someone does.

Also, he can still use ranged attacks, burst attacks, reach weapons, charge one of your allies, or use second wind if he really doesn't have anything better to do. That's not even remotely as bad as stun.


Talking about how bad Prone is then pointing out that many people feel it's so bad that they'll spend serious resources (and yes, taking up a major item slot or spending a feat or power on it are serious resources) negating it?Prone is a minor nuisance, and accordingly is dealt with by taking a cheap item or a low level power. Indeed, there aren't many feet slot items worth using anyway, and several classes (e.g. fighter) don't have much to offer in the way of low-level utilities.


The penalty for doing so is huge: you are 10% less likely to hit,10% is not "huge" by any stretch of the imagination.


it's certainly one of the most important tactics is putting your character in the right spot, every turn).Sure, and we're arguing that as written, prone and slow don't do enough to prevent those tactics. Because the common response to both is to charge and get where you wanted to be anyway.


I would never do this. (Ready for this faulty logic?) Suddenly, sneak attacking undead or oozes doesn't make sense either.The difference? "Oozes are immune to prone" means that a tiny percentage of creatures are immune to a condition (and yes, certain monsters as printed are immune to dazing, or forced movement, or fire attacks). "Undead are immune to sneak attack" means that a major and common group of monsters is immune to a basic class feature. That's a big difference.


However, since Prone is easier to do than Dazed, it's a deadly (and early!) condition in the hands of strategic players.There are several level-1 powers that daze. And, of course, neither prone nor dazed is "deadly" by any stretch of the word. Unconscious is a deadly condition (and also available at level-1).

Galdor Miriel
2010-10-15, 11:38 AM
It may be true that you can try and use prone as it is.

Knock somebody prone
Use a move action to step back out of the way,
Have all others step back out of the way after there hits.
Let the enemy get up and miss out on a melee attack

But lets face it, thats a bit bloody silly. If you knock someone on there ass you hit them when they try to get up. Simple.

I know D&D can be silly, so maybe it should stay that way, but it seems like it is easy to fix.

Plus, if you do not have a move left after knocking someone prone, prone does nothing. Nada. And it should.

dazed is a great tactic to use against pcs, who have minors and move actions out the ying yang, but ineffective on monstrous beasties, who largely just do one thing, unless they are a solo.

I have heard a few arguments either way, but I do not think my house rule would cause any serious problems, and I will get back to you and let you know how it plays out.

tcrudisi
2010-10-15, 11:51 AM
Also, he can still use ranged attacks, burst attacks, reach weapons, charge one of your allies, or use second wind if he really doesn't have anything better to do. That's not even remotely as bad as stun.

Many monsters do not have Ranged attacks or Burst attacks. Plus, it would have to be more than burst 1 to be able to reach. Very, very few monsters have Second Wind ... and I find that players mainly use Second Wind "when there's absolutely nothing else to do." Finally, the charge is easy enough to mitigate. When the character shifts away, put themselves to either block the charge or at least make it where the monster will incur an OA from charging past you. (Note: this is so much easier than it sounds.)


10% is not "huge" by any stretch of the imagination.

Considering that 10% is what the Expertise feats give you at level 16, I would hardly consider something that swung 10% to be trivial. Heck, I go for every +1 I can get as they all add up. Getting a +2 really is a big thing.


Sure, and we're arguing that as written, prone and slow don't do enough to prevent those tactics. Because the common response to both is to charge and get where you wanted to be anyway.

Except they rarely get to where they want to be or there is a punishment attached. The monster might have to use a basic attack rather than the big one he's wanting to use. The monster is unlikely to get to charge into flanking. The monster will probably incur OA's as it charges by those that are too close to charge.


The difference? "Oozes are immune to prone" means that a tiny percentage of creatures are immune to a condition (and yes, certain monsters as printed are immune to dazing, or forced movement, or fire attacks). "Undead are immune to sneak attack" means that a major and common group of monsters is immune to a basic class feature. That's a big difference.

I also said "Oozes are immune to sneak attack" which was failed to be addressed. Yuck, I really hate the argument I'm posing because I feel that most of the time it's used improperly (without getting into politics). My point is that if you made sweeping changes to the idea that all things are susceptible to some things (like sneak attack or prone), then you are really changing how the system works. And if Oozes are only a small part of the game, then surely it's okay to also make them immune to sneak attacks? I'm betting your Rogue would disagree.

"But Rogues are a main class." Well, I play a Fighter who's entire existence is based on grabbing foes and knocking them prone, forcing them to stay prone. Yes, yes, specific build vs. general class. The point still stands.


There are several level-1 powers that daze. And, of course, neither prone nor dazed is "deadly" by any stretch of the word. Unconscious is a deadly condition (and also available at level-1).

Prone is far more common at lower-levels and at-will than dazed is. Yes, some powers daze and a couple (Sleep? I can't think of any others) can knock unconscious. But Prone is far more common, easy, and just as painful (as dazed, not unconscious) if utilized properly and in the right circumstances.

tcrudisi
2010-10-15, 12:04 PM
Plus, if you do not have a move left after knocking someone prone, prone does nothing. Nada. And it should.

Except it does:

1) Allows your other melee allies to get combat advantage. Hey Rogue, come over here and get a free combat advantage stab on this guy! Hey Barbarian - time to use your daily or big encounter power. I gave you a +10% chance to hit with it!

2) Force the monster to be at -2 to hit you if it has to attack from prone.

"But the monster would stand up before attacking!" Well, think about this: your ally wants to get around the monster, but due to the layout of the battlefield, he has to incur an OA to do so. As such, you knock the monster prone, giving it a -2 on that OA against the ally. There's a 10% chance you've just saved your ally from taking any damage.

3) He loses his move action, as he has to spend it standing up. The monster is now stuck in place (unless he loses his Standard to move). If the monster is trying to run away? So sorry. If he wants to get into flanking? So sorry. If he wants to get into a good spot to use his close burst attack? Nope - you are stuck where you are now. Enjoy.

4) It allows you to stack more monsters closer together. This is an oft-overlooked ability of prone: when someone is prone, an ally can stand over him. This applies to monsters too. Knock one prone and he can share the same square as his ally. This allows you to occasionally get more monsters in that nice burst formation that your Wizard or Sorcerer will love you for. Woo! Cloud of Daggers is actually worth something now? (No, no it's not.)

Democratus
2010-10-15, 12:46 PM
Couldn't a monster stand up and then charge as the standard action?

Meta
2010-10-15, 02:10 PM
Couldn't a monster stand up and then charge as the standard action?

that's correct. the issue is if a clever player knocks a monster prone and shifts so they have one square in between them, that monster cannot charge. But if it has reach, ranged attacks, attacks with movement built it, etc. then yes it does little if the monster has no other effects on it

positioning means quite a bit tho IMO. that lost move action may mean the difference between a monster being able to go around the wall of fire or needing to charge through it.

RebelRogue
2010-10-15, 02:21 PM
Prone is one of those conditions that grant an advantage now, even more than the usual 4e condition. I like it that way, not least because of how the AoO on creatures rising from prone worked in 3.5: it usually meant, that once a creature was prone, the disadvantage of getting up was way worse than accepting the penalty for attacking while lying down. From a "rule of cool" perspective, this sucks big time! Lord Doomhammer, the elder wyrm dragon or the epic lich shouldn't spent half of combat lying down (ok, maybe bad examples, but you catch my drift)! It's just bad style! I realize comparing editions is like oranges and apples, but I'd hate to see something similar again!

Dragosai
2010-10-15, 02:57 PM
Yeah as others have posted if you house rule to make standing up provoke you dramatically change the game. You will then have your own 4E were every class will want to focus on the powers a class has that knock things prone, then combo that with all the AOO feats/powers/class features and you are back to the chain tripping **** cake of 3.5. I play a pole arm fighter now and they are very good in the right situations, change the standing up from prone rules and I win. Same goes for slow, you need to remember that being slowed sets your movement to 2 squares, so yeah if you are slowed you could move two squares to set up a charge then charge 2 squares how is that too good? It is worse than normal which is what slow is supposed to be. Slow is very good in the right situation same goes with most of the conditions in 4E there is no need to make things harsher and never do so over what you think makes 'real world sense' the 4E rules are totally abstract so they let the game just work without having to worry about what would 'really happen" and thatís a good thing. If you start down the 'real world sense' slope it never ends; for everyone that thinks if you are knocked prone in a real fight and try to get up that you are at a huge disadvantage, there will be five more people who will show how a lot of real world fighting styles are all about attacking and moving around from a prone position. The same argument applies to being slowed and thinking that you can't charge, what if I wrote up a tiny race whose natural move was a speed of 2? They could not "charge" simple due to having tiny features and a speed according to said features?

Edit: another good example of why you should not muck with slow; Lets say you have a fight in a big pool of mud, most of the time you would make it difficult terran and people would move less based on how fast their move speed was before factoring in the terran. Should people fighting in a mud pool not be able to charge? You could use a slow effect to also simulate the pool of mud or better yet say a trap that made a burst of sticky slime. If everyone in said encounter is slowed do to the trap why would they not be able to charge each other? Yes it is a slowed lumbering charge but they are still going to be able to go all out to get in the face of an foe and try and stike them with the most basic of attacks.

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-10-15, 08:04 PM
Seems to me that combat is most interesting when movement is encouraged, and it is even something to consider when building an encounter: will this turn into "hit, damage, hit, damage, etc?" If so, it's a poorly constructed encounter.

What you're doing is increasing the power of effects which limit movement, inherently creating less-interesting encounters when those are in play, unless you're very careful to counteract that.

So all in all, I think it's a bad idea.

Delcan
2010-10-15, 08:43 PM
The prime reason I have to disagree with the standing up provoking AoOs is the fighter I'm playing right now. He's an Eternal Seeker, but you can do the same trick with a straight-class barbarian.

I play a fighter with the barbarian power Oak Hammer Rage. Oak Hammer Rage's great draw is that it makes all your melee attacks knock prone for the rest of the encounter. Basically, this means that once Oak Hammer is up, my entire strategy involves getting up next to an enemy and hitting them once a turn with whatever.

Since they're prone next to me, they can't shift away. Their options are:

1. Get up and shift away. I knock them back down, eliminating their ability to shift.
2. Get up and move away. I hit them, knock them down, and negate their movement.
3. Crawl away without getting up. I hit them and negate their movement.
4. Hit me, either getting up or not. I enjoy the perks of drawing enemy attacks.

In any case, I call in the other two melee combatants in my party, and we crack open some beers and have a party over this sad monster's soon-to-be corpse, because if they're prone, and we can AoO them for getting up, the fight's over on round 1.

If getting back up allowed me to make AoOs, I wouldn't even have to keep hitting the person, not really. I could park by them and just take full defense every round, knowing that they had no options at all but to keep attacking me - which is a losing proposition, given that I've got the highest defenses of the group (being a defender taking full defense). They can't even retreat anymore - something that creatures should be able to do, barring exceptional circumstances.

Together, all this means that a fighter at level 9 is now rendering a single creature unable to do anything more than attack the brick wall for an entire combat.

This is just one trick out of dozens that cause the same result. You don't need dailies to knock prone at will.

tl;dr: there's a reason that getting up no longer provokes. Heed it.