Scaling Feats, Remakes and Originals [3.5 PEACH]

[UserShadow7989]

==Introduction==

Most feats suck. You only get 7 over your adventuring career (not counting bonus feats, and assuming you actually reach level 18), and most of the choices are utterly worthless. "3 HP for a whole feat? Sign me up for Toughness!" "A +1 to AC against a single opponent? Dodge is so awesome!" How many times have you heard or thought that? They don't get better over time, and aren't even that good in the first place.

What if instead of a tiny, insignificant, static boost, we got a tiny boost that grows over time? If you spend the effort to get a feat to be the best at tripping, shouldn't you be really good at it? If you get a bunch of feats involving skill bonuses, shouldn't you get really good at those skills?

I've decided to make these feats scale to remain useful after you first get them. It's far from a complete overhaul, most simply having the static bonuses swapped for one that starts lower but grows as you gain hit dice. Of course, it's always nice to have more worthwhile options.

Below is the index, showing the order of the feats. You'll notice that I've arranged the list based on feat trees, with the first feats being alphabetized. Next, all the skill check bonus feats (Alertness, Diligent, Investigator, etc.) have their changes listed under a single entry.

Lastly, some feats are noted as unchanged or original. Unchanged means there are no changes from the SRD I received them from, and are only listed so you don't have to scramble around the net to find what a different feat's prerequisite or effect is referring to. The latter is an original feat I came up with, an attempt to add variety and make the feats that are prerequisite to them more appealing.


==Index==
-All Skill Check Bonus Feats

-Combat Expertise
--Improved Disarm
--Improved Feint
--Improved Trip

-Dodge
--Mobility
---Spring Attack (unchanged)
----Whirlwind Attack

-Endurance
--Diehard

-Great Fortitude/Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes

-Point Blank Shot

-Power Attack (Unchanged)
--Improved Bull Rush
--Improved Overrun
--Improved Sunder

-Skill Focus
--Intellectual (original)
--Idiot Savant (original)

-Toughness
--Juggernaut (original)

-Weapon Focus
--Greater Weapon Focus
--Weapon Specialization
---Greater Weapon Specialization


The Feats

All Skill Check Bonus Feats [General]

Benefit
You get a bonus on all skill checks involving the two specified skills equal to your hit dice/2.

Special
Any special bonuses, effects, etc. the feat had are still granted by the feat.

Each skill check bonus feat may be taken twice to increase the bonus to skill checks to equal your hit dice.

---

Combat Expertise [General]

Prerequisite
Int 13.

Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty on your attack roll and add the same number as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal
A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special
A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Improved Disarm [General]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to disarm an opponent, nor does the opponent have a chance to disarm you. You also gain a +(2 + hit dice/4) bonus on the opposed attack roll you make to disarm your opponent.

Normal
See the normal disarm rules.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Disarm as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A monk may select Improved Disarm as a bonus feat at 6th level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

--Improved Feint [General]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit
You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action. You gain a +(hit dice/3) bonus to Bluff checks for this purpose.

Normal
Feinting in combat is a standard action.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Feint as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Improved Trip [General]

Prerequisites
Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +(2 + hit dice/4) bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

Normal
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed.

Special
At 6th level, a monk may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.

A fighter may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

---

Dodge [General]

Prerequisite
Dex 13.

Benefit
During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent equal to your hit dice/4 (rounded up). You can select a new opponent on any action.

Alternately, when you take the total defense option, you gain the dodge bonus to your AC against attacks from all opponents for the duration of that turn.

A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Special
A fighter may select Dodge as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Mobility [General]

Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge.

Benefit
You get a dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area equal to your hit dice/4 (rounded up). A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.

Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.

Special
A fighter may select Mobility as one of his fighter bonus feats.

----Spring Attack [General] [Unchanged]

Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Special
A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

------Whirlwind Attack [General]

Prerequisites
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities. Instead, add half the Base Attack Bonus of those attacks to your attack rolls for Whirlwind Attack, and half the damage roll bonuses to the damage rolls for Whirlwind Attack.

Special
A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

---

Endurance [General]

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus for each hit die you have on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.

Normal
A character without this feat who sleeps in medium or heavier armor is automatically fatigued the next day.

Special
A ranger automatically gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level. He need not select it.

--Diehard [General]

Prerequisite
Endurance

Benefit
When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

In addition, you no longer die at -10 hit dice. Instead, you die when you reach -(10 + hit dice) hit points.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act.

If you reach -10 hit points, you are unconscious and dying as normal and must roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round. If you reach -(10 + hit dice) hit points, you immediately die.

Normal
A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying.

---

Great Fortitude/Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes

Benefit
Increase your Fortitude/Will/Reflex(respectively) save by +2. In addition, the affected save receives a +1 increase for every 5 hit dice you have.

---

Point Blank Shot [General]

Benefit
You get a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. This bonus increases by +2 for every 10 ft. less then 30 of distance between you and your target.

However, if the target attacks you next turn, you receive a -3 circumstance penalty to AC, and an additional -3 circumstance penalty to AC for every 10 ft. less then 30 of distance there was between you and your target.

You can add an untyped +1 bonus to the attack roll or reduce the AC penalty by +1 for every 5 hit dice you have.

Special
A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

---

Power Attack [General] [Unchanged]

Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit
On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Improved Bull Rush [General]

Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit
When you perform a bull rush you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender. You also gain a +(2 + hit dice/4) bonus on the opposed Strength check you make to push back the defender.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Bull Rush as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Improved Overrun [General]

Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit
When you attempt to overrun an opponent, the target may not choose to avoid you. You also gain a +(2 + hit dice/4) bonus on your Strength check to knock down your opponent.

Normal
Without this feat, the target of an overrun can choose to avoid you or to block you.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Overrun as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Improved Sunder [General]

Prerequisites
Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit
When you strike at an object held or carried by an opponent (such as a weapon or shield), you do not provoke an attack of opportunity.

You also gain a +(2 + hit dice/4) bonus on any attack roll made to attack an object held or carried by another character.

Normal
Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you strike at an object held or carried by another character.

Special
A fighter may select Improved Sunder as one of his fighter bonus feats.

---

Skill Focus [General]

Choose a skill. Cannot select Use Magic Device.

Benefit
You get a +1 bonus on all checks involving that skill for every two hit dice you have.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.

--Intellectual [General] [Original]

Prerequisites
Skill Focus, Int 12

Benefit
This character gains an additional 2 skill points at each level, quadrupled at first level. This bonus is applied to older levels retroactively when obtained.

Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

--Idiot Savant [General] [Original]
Select 5 skills. The skills don't need to be class skills. Cannot select Use Magic Device.

Prerequisites
Skill Focus, Int 11 or lower

Benefit
At level up, the character gains 12 skill points to be spent among the 5 skills selected. If the skills are not class skills, they are now treated as class skills for this character. This bonus is applied to older levels retroactively when obtained, but are not quadrupled at first level.

Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times, choosing 5 new skills each time.

If the character's Int increases above 11, the bonuses provided by this feat up to that point remain in effect, but they don't gain any new bonuses from the following levels.

---

Toughness [General]

Benefit
You gain +2 hit points for each hit die you have.

Special
A character may gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.

--Juggernaut [Genera] [Original]

Prerequisites
Diehard, Endurance, Toughness

Benefit
Treat this character as having 4 more hit dice then it really does for the effects of Diehard, Endurance, and Toughness.

Special
This feat may be taken multiple times. Its effects stack.

If you have the Great Fortitude feat, this effect also applies to that feat.

---

Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one of the following weapon groups. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Swords: Dagger, Falchion, Great Sword, Kukri, Long Sword, Punching Dagger, Rapier, Scimitar, Short Sword, Two-Bladed Sword.
Polearms: Glaive, Guisarme, Halbred, Javelin, Lance, Long Spear, Quarterstaff, Ranseur, Short Spear, Spear, Trident.
Axes/Picks: Battle Axe, Dwarven Urgosh, Dwarven Waraxe, Greataxe, Handaxe, Heavy Pick, Orc Double Axe, Sickle, Scythe, Throwing Axe.
Maces/Bludgeons: Club, Dire Flail, Flail, Greatclub, Heavy Flail, Heavy Mace, Light Hammer, Light Mace, Morning Star, Warhammer.
Thrown: Bolas, Dagger, Dart, Javelin, Light Hammer, Net, Shuriken, Sling, Trident, Throwing Axe,
Bows: Composite Longbow, Composite Shortbow, Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crosssbow, Light Crossbow, Longbow, Repeating Heavy Crossbow, Repeating Light Crossbow, Shortbow.
Monk: Grapple, Kama, Nunchaku, Quarterstaff, Sai, Shuriken, Siangham, Unarmed Strike.
Mage: Rays.
Exotic: Select up to two Exotic Weapons you have proficiency with.
Special: Select up to three non-exotic weapons you have proficiency with.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with all non-exotic weapons in the selected group, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapons for every 5 hit dice you have (rounded up).

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new weapon group.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

--Greater Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 8th.

Benefit
When making an attack roll involving the selected weapon, you may add a +(hit dice/3) bonus to the attack roll. This can be used a number of times per encounter equal to the number of attacks per round provided by your Base Attack Bonus.

This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus (see above). You can use this multiple times in the same round (such as on each attack roll provided by a Full Attack), but cannot apply multiple uses to a single attack roll.

Special
You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter must have Greater Weapon Focus with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

--Weapon Specialization [General]

Choose one weapon group for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat (other then Ray). You deal extra damage when using weapons from that group.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapons, Weapon Focus with selected weapons, fighter level 4th.

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapons for every 5 hit dice you have.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

----Greater Weapon Specialization [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Specialization. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, fighter level 12th.

Benefit
When making a damage roll involving the selected weapon, you may add a +(hit dice/4) bonus to the damage roll. This can only be used once per attack, and can't be applied to damage rolls resulting from extra attack rolls not provided by your Base Attack Bonus.

If you apply the bonus to second, third, or fourth attack granted by your Base Attack Bonus, increase the damage roll bonus by +2, +4, or +6, respectively.

Special
You can gain Greater Weapon Specialization multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

==Closing==

I hope this is of use to someone who wants to run a more martial focused game, or want martial characters to do slightly better. I'm concerned I may have made some blatantly better then others or scale too quickly, and I'm hoping for some advice, suggestions, or requests. I mostly focused on the small, useless or semi-useless boosts or feats with too many prerequisites to be worthwhile.

I'm still coming up with feats, and have access only to what's in the SRD. If you wish to request a feat from outside the SRD, please post the feat and all related feats/information on it.

Changes:
10/16/10: Changed Skill Focus and Idiot Savant to not be applicable to Use Magic Device.

10/18/10: Dropped the higher bonuses to a more reasonable amount.

10/19/10: Modified Dodge and Point Blank Shot to provide more options, dropped some bonuses again, changed Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to benefit a group of weapons, though the two feats further down the chain still only apply to a single weapon. Greater Weapon Specialization has been nerfed as well.

[Aran Banks]

Did someone say scaling feats? (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats)

[UserShadow7989]

Did someone say scaling feats? (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_Combat_Feats)

Those are awesome. I love the idea of scaling with BAB, as it favors classes like Fighter and Barbarian over casters and gishes. Horde Breaker is probably my favorite out of the bunch.

I remember seeing them a long time ago, which is what inspired me to give my take on the scaling feat genre. Personally, I find the boosts a bit too spread out and abrupt, but it's better then plain core, and most likely better then mine.

[Aran Banks]

Well, they're certainly stronger than most of your feats (I skimmed 'em. Will get back when I have a larger degree of initiative. Right now, large blocks of text scare me).

But you've got one problem.

The skill feats. And UMD. Taking Skill Focus on UMD yields insane bonuses on skills, and Idiot Savant gives EVERYBODY UMD if they want it, as well as the ability to max out skill points. I'd apply those abilities to every skill but UMD, explicitely. Just state flat out "No, don't be an ass hat."

[UserShadow7989]

Ouch. Yeah, I forgot all about UMD. I'll specify that.

[Jota]

Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon for every 2 hit dice you have.

Special
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

--Greater Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected Weapon Focus. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites
Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 8th.

Benefit
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon for every 2 hit dice you have. This bonus stacks with other bonuses on attack rolls, including the one from Weapon Focus (see above).

Special
You can gain Greater Weapon Focus multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter must have Greater Weapon Focus with a given weapon to gain the Greater Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

A fighter may select Greater Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.


Are you serious? Bigger numbers do not solve anything, and these feats seem to indicate that you know absolutely nothing about the concept of random number generation as applied to balance. I was just skimming and saw these, but I'm struggling to look at the rest of these seriously after seeing this. Weapon Focus is a bad feat because it's bland, not because the numbers are not significant enough.

[Pyre_Born]

Are you serious? Bigger numbers do not solve anything, and these feats seem to indicate that you know absolutely nothing about the concept of random number generation as applied to balance. I was just skimming and saw these, but I'm struggling to look at the rest of these seriously after seeing this. Weapon Focus is a bad feat because it's bland, not because the numbers are not significant enough.

I really don't understand what is wrong with those feats, a Fighter spending 2 feats over 20 levels to gain a total of +40 (after BAB) to attacks with their preferred weapon is nothing to brush aside. The increase in success rate alone increases the average amount of damage they would do. Most fighters will gain a +x weapon over their career anyways, which once again increases the hit chance.

For a melee/ranged focus bigger numbers don't solve anything, but it helps to take the sting out. After all feats alone will NEVER solve balance issues in 3e, that'll take a whole lot more.

-------------

Back to the OP, I'm looking over these, and the scaling abilities do take a little bit of the hurt out of terrible feats :p

I'll try to take a better look later and give some more of my 2cents

And...
for original feats are their any ideas you were planning on going with, new fighter feats, paladin feats, monk feats, etc?

If you are thinking of making more I'd be more than happy to toss around ideas and help out when I can.

Peace,
Pyre

[UserShadow7989]

Are you serious? Bigger numbers do not solve anything, and these feats seem to indicate that you know absolutely nothing about the concept of random number generation as applied to balance. I was just skimming and saw these, but I'm struggling to look at the rest of these seriously after seeing this. Weapon Focus is a bad feat because it's bland, not because the numbers are not significant enough.

They're not supposed to 'solve' something. Feats aren't going to fix the tangled mess that is 3e's concept of 'balance'. They're supposed to ensure that if you want to have a master of swords or bows, you have a master of swords or bows. If you want your character to have an impenetrable defense, or a reckless but powerful offense, the feat should have enough of a bonus to reflect that in combat.


Back to the OP, I'm looking over these, and the scaling abilities do take a little bit of the hurt out of terrible feats :p

I'll try to take a better look later and give some more of my 2cents

And...
for original feats are their any ideas you were planning on going with, new fighter feats, paladin feats, monk feats, etc?

If you are thinking of making more I'd be more than happy to toss around ideas and help out when I can.

Peace,
Pyre

I'm not sure about more original feats, I only made them to expand on concepts that were already there but could be done differently or to a larger extent. I'll think about it.

[Pyre_Born]

I'm not sure about more original feats, I only made them to expand on concepts that were already there but could be done differently or to a larger extent. I'll think about it.

Ok, I might start a thread for original feats, I'm thinking of a lot of feats to try out.

You mind if I put a link to this thread to use as reference for power level and style?

Looking over the feats again, they look pretty sound, so far I'm not seeing anything that would be game breaking, or unbalancing. Looks good from my point of view. Great feats, kudos.

Peace,
Pyre

[Ashtagon]

The problem with feats just giving bigger bonuses is that they still remain just a static bonus. Your fighter is still left with "I hit him. Hard." as his only valid combat option.

Feats should be something you do, not something you are.

[Pyre_Born]

The problem with feats just giving bigger bonuses is that they still remain just a static bonus. Your fighter is still left with "I hit him. Hard." as his only valid combat option.

Feats should be something you do, not something you are.

Firstly, I kind of agree here. Second, these are meant to be improvements on existing core feats, and they accomplish this. Third, about something you do, more feats will need to be created for that, but these still accomplish that for a specific role. Some people do want to be a beatstick, and these dull the sting of that a little.

Overall this is a major improvement for core feats, because lets face it not only did the Fighter get gimped on class features, they got shafted on feats (their ONLY class feature) too. As the OP stated, these are meant to be improvements on core SRD feats, and I believe they succeed.

If people are up for it, I'm thinking of starting a "sister" thread for new feats to improve (mostly) on non casting classes, and maybe bonus/alternate class features. If we can get enough people to help who knows we may be able to set a foundation for fixing some issues with non casters between the two threads

Peace,
Pyre


*edit* If you wanna help on new feats check HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172369)

[UserShadow7989]

The problem with feats just giving bigger bonuses is that they still remain just a static bonus. Your fighter is still left with "I hit him. Hard." as his only valid combat option.

Feats should be something you do, not something you are.

True. I love feats that grant something beyond a +X to this or that, and bigger bonuses are never as interesting or fun as a new skill. There still needs to be some feats that are +X bonuses for characters who want to focus on those things, but actually getting to do something beyond full attacking is a fantastic feeling.

...Of course, this 'project' hardly counts as a homebrew, looking at it now. Simply changing the bonuses to scale is hardly creative, or even much of a change, and there's only three original feats there. There's hardly even a point, since it's not intended as a real 'fix' or anything. I probably would have been better off not wasting the time doing it.

[The Tygre]

...Of course, this 'project' hardly counts as a homebrew, looking at it now. Simply changing the bonuses to scale is hardly creative, or even much of a change, and there's only three original feats there. There's hardly even a point, since it's not intended as a real 'fix' or anything. I probably would have been better off not wasting the time doing it.

Excuse me for a second;

http://www.corrieblog.tv/11aug_Deirdre_Slap_Ken.jpg

Snap out of it. No homebrew is ever invalid. Ever. Now get back to work.

[Fax Celestis]

This is the idea I had originally with Perfecting Feats (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Perfecting_Feats). The idea eventually evolved into Investing Feats (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Feats).

[Jota]

I really don't understand what is wrong with those feats, a Fighter spending 2 feats over 20 levels to gain a total of +40 (after BAB) to attacks with their preferred weapon is nothing to brush aside. The increase in success rate alone increases the average amount of damage they would do. Most fighters will gain a +x weapon over their career anyways, which once again increases the hit chance.

For a melee/ranged focus bigger numbers don't solve anything, but it helps to take the sting out. After all feats alone will NEVER solve balance issues in 3e, that'll take a whole lot more.


Emphasis mine. This statement is correct if you operate under the assumption the fighter will be able to get position (whether immediate proximity or just 'in range') and then attack. With that said, +11/+6/+1 is no different from +17/+12/+7 if concealment/cover/flight/invisibility/whatever battlefield control effect prevents the fighter from doing just that. Most optimized fighters can hit the enemy's armor class from a purely numerical perspective. That is not the issue, so what this is doing is fixing something that's not broken and then creating further issues (see below).


They're not supposed to 'solve' something. Feats aren't going to fix the tangled mess that is 3e's concept of 'balance'. They're supposed to ensure that if you want to have a master of swords or bows, you have a master of swords or bows. If you want your character to have an impenetrable defense, or a reckless but powerful offense, the feat should have enough of a bonus to reflect that in combat.


The bigger issue here comes with Greater Weapon Focus. First, everyone and their mother now has to take Weapon Focus (which isn't a huge deal since most already did because every +1 matters to a melee character, but now it's an absolute imperative). Greater Weapon Focus, however, requires fighter level 8. This means that being an eighth level fighter is imperative to a combat build. Want to be a rogue? Barbarian? Totemist? Some semi-functional monk/paladin/hexblade variant? Only after you're fighter 8/warblade 10 (or whatever the required level would be). This is because if you scale enemy AC up so that it's a reasonable challenge for a fighter, no one else will be able to hit said enemy (bad for everyone but fighters, obviously not a solution). If you keep AC the same so everyone else can hit, the fighter says "**** it, I don't need to roll," and now everyone needs to be at least fighter 8 to avoid the same (or a similar, at the very least) feeling of uselessness casters impose on their non-magical brethren in a traditional game. If players wanted a fixed outcome they'd seek a different medium than something involving a ****tonne of dice-rolling.

The differences are exacerbated at the highest levels, but even compare fighter 8 to psychic warrior (normally the superior class in most respects) 8:

+23 (+8 BAB, +4 WF, +4 GWF, +5 Strength, +2 Item)
+16 (+6 BAB, +4 Strength, +4 Weapon Focus, +2 Item)


Maybe you get some offensive precognition in there to offset it a bit, but that's still a huge difference. The creature a psychic warrior hits 50% of the time (must roll an 11), the fighter hits 80% of the time and only needs to roll a 4. Even a barbarian (also generally a bit better than a fighter) would be looking at +21, a difference that will only grow past level eight (albeit perhaps at level 11 where the barbarian gets greater rage and nothing happens to the fighter). Repeating myself again, but you're essentially creating a similar dichotomy to the one that exists between casters and non-casters between fighter 8 and every other melee type. I see you've also done this with Point Blank Shot, so why don't we pigeonhole every combat character into short range archers while we're at it?

I guess the point to take away from all this that you need to understand is that numbers are not the issue. Numbers need to be balanced in relation to everyone else's numbers or the random element of the game loses its meaning.

[UserShadow7989]

Excuse me for a second;

http://www.corrieblog.tv/11aug_Deirdre_Slap_Ken.jpg

Snap out of it. No homebrew is ever invalid. Ever. Now get back to work.

Not 'invalid' so much as 'pointless'. It doesn't fix anything, it doesn't really make them 'better'. It was the result of an afternoon of goofing around that I wish I could justify as something caused by a high fever or food poisoning but sadly I was suffering from neither.


This is the idea I had originally with Perfecting Feats (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Perfecting_Feats). The idea eventually evolved into Investing Feats (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Feats).

Vastly better. I wish I could do something like this, but I seem to have a 20:1 ratio of horrible:passable, most of which I have the sense to keep locked away on a text document that will never see the light of day (though this one got through).


The bigger issue here comes with Greater Weapon Focus. First, everyone and their mother now has to take Weapon Focus (which isn't a huge deal since most already did because every +1 matters to a melee character, but now it's an absolute imperative). Greater Weapon Focus, however, requires fighter level 8. This means that being an eighth level fighter is imperative to a combat build. Want to be a rogue? Barbarian? Totemist? Some semi-functional monk/paladin/hexblade variant? Only after you're fighter 8/warblade 10 (or whatever the required level would be). This is because if you scale enemy AC up so that it's a reasonable challenge for a fighter, no one else will be able to hit said enemy (bad for everyone but fighters, obviously not a solution). If you keep AC the same so everyone else can hit, the fighter says "**** it, I don't need to roll," and now everyone needs to be at least fighter 8 to avoid the same (or a similar, at the very least) feeling of uselessness casters impose on their non-magical brethren in a traditional game. If players wanted a fixed outcome they'd seek a different medium than something involving a ****tonne of dice-rolling.

The differences are exacerbated at the highest levels, but even compare fighter 8 to psychic warrior (normally the superior class in most respects) 8:

+23 (+8 BAB, +4 WF, +4 GWF, +5 Strength, +2 Item)
+16 (+6 BAB, +4 Strength, +4 Weapon Focus, +2 Item)


Maybe you get some offensive precognition in there to offset it a bit, but that's still a huge difference. The creature a psychic warrior hits 50% of the time (must roll an 11), the fighter hits 80% of the time and only needs to roll a 4. Even a barbarian (also generally a bit better than a fighter) would be looking at +21, a difference that will only grow past level eight (albeit perhaps at level 11 where the barbarian gets greater rage and nothing happens to the fighter). Repeating myself again, but you're essentially creating a similar dichotomy to the one that exists between casters and non-casters between fighter 8 and every other melee type. I see you've also done this with Point Blank Shot, so why don't we pigeonhole every combat character into short range archers while we're at it?

I guess the point to take away from all this that you need to understand is that numbers are not the issue. Numbers need to be balanced in relation to everyone else's numbers or the random element of the game loses its meaning.

Yeah, that's painful. There shouldn't be any 'mandatory' feats, especially one that is only accessible by one class. I changed the effect of Greater Weapon Specialization to only be an X times per encounter boost (and a smaller one at that) so it doesn't invalidate non-fighter mundane classes. I reduced the more massive bonuses of Weapon Specialization and PBS to be less extreme.

Not that it really helps. As you've stated, the bonuses don't really fix anything. They don't give any new options, they don't grant any way around the main obstacles of the classes that depend on them. There has to be a point behind it, can't just toy with something for chuckles and expect to get something useful out of it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Not 'invalid' so much as 'pointless'. It doesn't fix anything, it doesn't really make them 'better'. It was the result of an afternoon of goofing around that I wish I could justify as something caused by a high fever or food poisoning but sadly I was suffering from neither.

Well...


Excuse me for a second;

http://www.corrieblog.tv/11aug_Deirdre_Slap_Ken.jpg

Snap out of it. No homebrew is ever invalid. Ever. Now get back to work.

I'll still have to second Tygre on this one. No homebrew is invalid, no idea is pointless, so as long the 'brewer is willing to accept what's wrong, change what's wrong, realize what's right, and defend to the death what's right.

Scaling feats are neat, but there are a few things I'd do. Mostly, make it something exclusive to martial characters in some particular way (and skill-based classes something for skill-monkeys, but anyone can take some advantage out of it). Why? Because that's a reasonable way to imitate the extent of caster level and quadratic progression. You need to have feats scale if they provide fixed bonuses so that choosing a feat isn't really pointless. Right now, WF is pointless because, despite being a solid +1 to attack, it is extremely limited in scope. It was an attempt to imitate the specialization ability of 2E Fighters, who could take a sword and specialize on that so badly, they had no problems with it. Except that it wasn't a very good type of trespass, much like everything the original developers of 3E (Cook, Tweet, Williams) tried to do. Not that it was a bad idea, but the thing is that after the game progressed, it was seen as better to create feats that gave you new stuff rather than just a simple bonus.

Good example of a scaling feat: Domain Feats. Count how many of those are spoken as "must-have" feats: Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion. There are other few, but they aren't so wildly spoken. Oh, and Animal Devotion which is basically 1/4th awesome, 3/4ths so-so. Each and every one of them is a HD-based scaling feat, but what you get from them is pretty different. That's a good starting point: if you're gonna make a feat chain, and that feat chain is just strings of bonuses one after another (or the TWF feat chain whose main effect is enabling more off-hand attacks), collapse them into a single feat. Then, any addition to the feat is a modification of the first feat: Two-Weapon Rend grants you the ability to rend with two weapons, Double Hit allows you to strike with both weapons as a single attack, and so on. That makes a feat properly scalable, but also useful every time.

Oh, and as a disclaimer: I'm not so keen with the idea of Investing feats, even if they're scaling feats. Seems like a simple system, but it's adding instead of modifying. But, I guess not everyone has to agree with that; First Amendment and all...


Yeah, that's painful. There shouldn't be any 'mandatory' feats, especially one that is only accessible by one class.[...]

Not that it really helps. As you've stated, the bonuses don't really fix anything. They don't give any new options, they don't grant any way around the main obstacles of the classes that depend on them. There has to be a point behind it, can't just toy with something for chuckles and expect to get something useful out of it.

I dissent with this idea a bit. Mandatory feats (such as the Druid's Natural Spell, or the Paladin's Battle Blessing, or the Rogue's Weapon Finesse ;) ) are not very good ideas, but limiting feats to classes isn't a bad idea. Specially since what you want is give melee some love (actually, give martial some love; melee is just one of the things you can do as a martial character). Sure, they give no appreciable advantages other than promoting rocket tag, but if measured carefully, they can be effective after all. For example: Combat Expertise should have been the same as Power Attack, allowing you to take a penalty on attack rolls up to your full BAB and gain an amount of AC equal to the penalty. That way, you can take advantage of stuff like touch attacks and land some damage while being essentially untouchable. That also removes Imp. Combat Expertise out of the fray. Weapon Focus is very limited because it works with only ONE weapon; weapon groups, on the other hand, are slightly better since you can effectively provide several bonuses to a specific kind of weapon, and these scale as you go (effectively specializing on the weapon). Then, GWF might work differently but similarly at the same time; instead of granting more bonuses, it ignores AC (or heck, why not make it so that you can't fail on a 1 or something while wielding a specific weapon?). Yes, it sounds ridiculous to have a feat that requires a few levels but that essentially makes you immune to fumbling an attack, but then again the spellcasters have several touch attack spells that remove half of the AC of a character, and Invisibility for roughly the other half. Blind-Fight could grant a form of blindsense or blindsight (perhaps combining two types of feats to grant blindsight), Toughness doing what Improved Toughness does, and stuff like that. And remember; what's equal is not a disadvantage, thus by making this you're also allowing other creatures to also have this type of advantage, so in the end you're canceling your bonuses with the other's bonuses.

But...no HD or BAB. I find those to be hilariously exploitable. Maybe...something else? You can allow Prowess if you want, but I find IL to be much more elegant (with some tweaks, of course).

[Pyre_Born]

Emphasis mine. This statement is correct if you operate under the assumption the fighter will be able to get position (whether immediate proximity or just 'in range') and then attack. With that said, +11/+6/+1 is no different from +17/+12/+7 if concealment/cover/flight/invisibility/whatever battlefield control effect prevents the fighter from doing just that. Most optimized fighters can hit the enemy's armor class from a purely numerical perspective. That is not the issue, so what this is doing is fixing something that's not broken and then creating further issues (see below).



The bigger issue here comes with Greater Weapon Focus. First, everyone and their mother now has to take Weapon Focus (which isn't a huge deal since most already did because every +1 matters to a melee character, but now it's an absolute imperative). Greater Weapon Focus, however, requires fighter level 8. This means that being an eighth level fighter is imperative to a combat build. Want to be a rogue? Barbarian? Totemist? Some semi-functional monk/paladin/hexblade variant? Only after you're fighter 8/warblade 10 (or whatever the required level would be). This is because if you scale enemy AC up so that it's a reasonable challenge for a fighter, no one else will be able to hit said enemy (bad for everyone but fighters, obviously not a solution). If you keep AC the same so everyone else can hit, the fighter says "**** it, I don't need to roll," and now everyone needs to be at least fighter 8 to avoid the same (or a similar, at the very least) feeling of uselessness casters impose on their non-magical brethren in a traditional game. If players wanted a fixed outcome they'd seek a different medium than something involving a ****tonne of dice-rolling.

The differences are exacerbated at the highest levels, but even compare fighter 8 to psychic warrior (normally the superior class in most respects) 8:

+23 (+8 BAB, +4 WF, +4 GWF, +5 Strength, +2 Item)
+16 (+6 BAB, +4 Strength, +4 Weapon Focus, +2 Item)


Maybe you get some offensive precognition in there to offset it a bit, but that's still a huge difference. The creature a psychic warrior hits 50% of the time (must roll an 11), the fighter hits 80% of the time and only needs to roll a 4. Even a barbarian (also generally a bit better than a fighter) would be looking at +21, a difference that will only grow past level eight (albeit perhaps at level 11 where the barbarian gets greater rage and nothing happens to the fighter). Repeating myself again, but you're essentially creating a similar dichotomy to the one that exists between casters and non-casters between fighter 8 and every other melee type. I see you've also done this with Point Blank Shot, so why don't we pigeonhole every combat character into short range archers while we're at it?

I guess the point to take away from all this that you need to understand is that numbers are not the issue. Numbers need to be balanced in relation to everyone else's numbers or the random element of the game loses its meaning.

Agreed, all valid points, I see what you meant now. I was only looking at it from the POV compared to the SRD feats it replaces. When it comes to non casters their are many, many things that need to be fixed, including the fact that most classes really do require you to take certain feats because the class can't hold it's own.

Peace,
Pyre

[UserShadow7989]

I'll still have to second Tygre on this one. No homebrew is invalid, no idea is pointless, so as long the 'brewer is willing to accept what's wrong, change what's wrong, realize what's right, and defend to the death what's right.

I guess so. I went through the effort of shoving this mess onto the board, I might as well do something constructive with it.


Scaling feats are neat, but there are a few things I'd do. Mostly, make it something exclusive to martial characters in some particular way (and skill-based classes something for skill-monkeys, but anyone can take some advantage out of it). Why? Because that's a reasonable way to imitate the extent of caster level and quadratic progression. You need to have feats scale if they provide fixed bonuses so that choosing a feat isn't really pointless.

I don't think they need to be made explicitly martial only. Most feats are built specifically to assist martial characters to begin with, and casters are too busy flipping the bird at reality to really care about most non-metamagic feats.


Right now, WF is pointless because, despite being a solid +1 to attack, it is extremely limited in scope. It was an attempt to imitate the specialization ability of 2E Fighters, who could take a sword and specialize on that so badly, they had no problems with it. Except that it wasn't a very good type of trespass, much like everything the original developers of 3E (Cook, Tweet, Williams) tried to do. Not that it was a bad idea, but the thing is that after the game progressed, it was seen as better to create feats that gave you new stuff rather than just a simple bonus.

Yeah, I always did prefer the feats that gave you more to do. Speaking of, I edited Dodge and Point Blank Shot to provide options as well instead of just bonuses.


Good example of a scaling feat: Domain Feats. Count how many of those are spoken as "must-have" feats: Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Trickery Devotion. There are other few, but they aren't so wildly spoken. Oh, and Animal Devotion which is basically 1/4th awesome, 3/4ths so-so. Each and every one of them is a HD-based scaling feat, but what you get from them is pretty different. That's a good starting point: if you're gonna make a feat chain, and that feat chain is just strings of bonuses one after another (or the TWF feat chain whose main effect is enabling more off-hand attacks), collapse them into a single feat. Then, any addition to the feat is a modification of the first feat: Two-Weapon Rend grants you the ability to rend with two weapons, Double Hit allows you to strike with both weapons as a single attack, and so on. That makes a feat properly scalable, but also useful every time.

I'm afraid I don't have access to Domain Feats or anything not listed in the SRD. They sound completely awesome, and I find the concept of doing the same thing in more and more ways a better approach to feats.


Oh, and as a disclaimer: I'm not so keen with the idea of Investing feats, even if they're scaling feats. Seems like a simple system, but it's adding instead of modifying. But, I guess not everyone has to agree with that; First Amendment and all...

Actually, I have to agree. It should do something new, and my biggest regret about this mess (besides posting it) is having been so lazy as to not change that when toying with these.


I dissent with this idea a bit. Mandatory feats (such as the Druid's Natural Spell, or the Paladin's Battle Blessing, or the Rogue's Weapon Finesse ;) ) are not very good ideas, but limiting feats to classes isn't a bad idea. Specially since what you want is give melee some love (actually, give martial some love; melee is just one of the things you can do as a martial character).

I was referring to feats that are mandatory for being good at something being limited to one class, like the version of GWF I had up at first.


Sure, they give no appreciable advantages other than promoting rocket tag, but if measured carefully, they can be effective after all. For example: Combat Expertise should have been the same as Power Attack, allowing you to take a penalty on attack rolls up to your full BAB and gain an amount of AC equal to the penalty. That way, you can take advantage of stuff like touch attacks and land some damage while being essentially untouchable. That also removes Imp. Combat Expertise out of the fray.

Done.


Weapon Focus is very limited because it works with only ONE weapon; weapon groups, on the other hand, are slightly better since you can effectively provide several bonuses to a specific kind of weapon, and these scale as you go (effectively specializing on the weapon).

Done. I made several groups of similar/semi-similar weapons to choose from instead of a single weapon. They have to be proficient with all non-exotic weapons in a group to take it, but they can also just pick 3 non-exotic or 2 exotic weapons they have proficiency with instead if they don't qualify.


Then, GWF might work differently but similarly at the same time; instead of granting more bonuses, it ignores AC (or heck, why not make it so that you can't fail on a 1 or something while wielding a specific weapon?). Yes, it sounds ridiculous to have a feat that requires a few levels but that essentially makes you immune to fumbling an attack, but then again the spellcasters have several touch attack spells that remove half of the AC of a character, and Invisibility for roughly the other half.

This I haven't done, simply because I can't tell if it's overkill or not. However, I will note that GWF and GWS still only effect 1 weapon, though WF and WS now rely on groups. I also edited GWS to only effect 1 roll per attack, and let the player choose to apply it to his/her highest BAB roll, or wait and hope one of his/her lower BAB attack rolls hit to apply it to them and get a bigger bonus.


Blind-Fight could grant a form of blindsense or blindsight (perhaps combining two types of feats to grant blindsight), Toughness doing what Improved Toughness does, and stuff like that. And remember; what's equal is not a disadvantage, thus by making this you're also allowing other creatures to also have this type of advantage, so in the end you're canceling your bonuses with the other's bonuses.

I don't have access to IT. The Blind-Fight idea is cool, and when/if I get to it I'll blatantly steal use that idea.


But...no HD or BAB. I find those to be hilariously exploitable. Maybe...something else? You can allow Prowess if you want, but I find IL to be much more elegant (with some tweaks, of course).

Hm... what about ability modifiers? The problem is that it won't scale much, with how little they increase. I'm afraid I don't know what IL is. I do find scaling by level/hit dice a bit wonky, though in very limited cases like Toughness it seems okay.