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Myth
2010-10-21, 04:55 AM
This exercise in optimization is simple: built the SADest 3.5 character concept possible. In other words, have as many class features, spell DCs, saves, attack/AC bonuses or other miscellaneous stuff keyed off the same attribute bonus.

Bonus DnDs if you can follow the standard multiclassing rules.

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 05:28 AM
What about NAD characters? :smallamused:

Coidzor
2010-10-21, 05:33 AM
What was that class that was recommended to those who have all 8s in their abilities?

Eldariel
2010-10-21, 05:34 AM
What was that class that was recommended to those who have all 8s in their abilities?

The Wallock.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-21, 05:34 AM
Wizard 20 with that Fey feat that keys hit points off intelligence. That's all you need.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-21, 05:40 AM
Wizard 20 with that Fey feat that keys hit points off intelligence. That's all you need.

Add in some Factotum for more Int shenanigans.

gomipile
2010-10-21, 05:55 AM
Wizard 20 with that Fey feat that keys hit points off intelligence. That's all you need.

Where is that from? The only feats I know like that solely apply to hit points gained at first level.

Eldan
2010-10-21, 05:59 AM
You can get charisma to AC, saves, attack rolls and damage. Often twice. If you are undead, you can also get it to hit points.

Cyclocone
2010-10-21, 06:03 AM
Where is that from? The only feats I know like that solely apply to hit points gained at first level.

Enjoy your cheese. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Faerie_Mysteries_Initiate)

Sir Swindle89
2010-10-21, 06:58 AM
You can get charisma to AC, saves, attack rolls and damage. Often twice. If you are undead, you can also get it to hit points.

and spell DC's and bonus spell if you don't already get them from there.

Myth
2010-10-21, 08:12 AM
Enjoy your cheese. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Faerie_Mysteries_Initiate)

How does one handle the "partner" part without DM intervention? Leadership?

Also, what was the feat that allowed Cha to HP for Undead? And where can i find it?

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 08:26 AM
Barring casters, a Factotum X/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Blade X/ Monk 2 (with Carmendine Monk)/ Warblade X/ Eternal Blade X sounds like a good start.

Cyclocone
2010-10-21, 08:31 AM
How does one handle the "partner" part without DM intervention? Leadership?

Simulacrum.


Also, what was the feat that allowed Cha to HP for Undead? And where can i find it?

Unholy Toughness; not a feat but a special Trait found in some late-edition undead. Can be aquired through the Walker in the Wastes PrC (It's-Hot-Outside).

Douglas
2010-10-21, 08:33 AM
How does one handle the "partner" part without DM intervention? Leadership?
Simple: you only need to perform the ritual one single time, ever, not once per day. Stick it in your backstory if possible, or make a point of searching for a one-time partner in game otherwise.


Also, what was the feat that allowed Cha to HP for Undead? And where can i find it?
It's not a feat, but rather a special ability that was commonly given to new undead published after a certain point in 3.5's run, but undead from before its introduction were not retroactively given it by errata and were not given any way to obtain it.

Amphetryon
2010-10-21, 08:38 AM
From T_G's Tome of Battle compendium:


This is a SAD Warblade build requiring only a 13 INT to tick, though a good CON is always helpful.
Build Name: Intelligent Warrior
Race: Grey Elf
Build Stub: FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 10

Build Progression:
FTR 1: Combat Expertise, Initiate of the Faerie Mysteries
FTR 2: Improved Trip
FTR 2/SWB 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency – Spiked Chain
FTR 2/SWB 2: +1 INT
FTR 2/SWB 3:
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 1: Weapon Focus – Spiked Chain. Maneuvers – Moment of Perfect Mind, Steel Wind, Leading the Attack. Stance – Punishing Stance.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 2: Maneuver – Douse the Flames.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 3: Maneuver – Action Before Thought. +1 INT
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 4: Weapon Specialization – Spiked Chain. Stance – Hunter’s Sense.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5: Martial Study – Diamond Mind. Maneuver – White Raven Tactics.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 1: Maneuver – Bonecrusher.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 2: Rapid Assault. +1 INT
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 3: Maneuver – Ruby Nightmare Blade.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 4:
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 5: Sudden Recovery. Maneuver – Rapid Counter. Stance – Hearing the Air.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 6: +1 INT
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 7: Maneuver – Greater Insightful Strike.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 8: Vital Recovery.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 9: Maneuver – Quicksilver Motion.
FTR 2/SWB 3/WB 5/EB 10: +1 INT

Legend: FTR – Fighter. SWB – Swashbuckler. WB – Warblade. EB – Eternal Blade

Last Laugh
2010-10-21, 09:07 AM
Simulacrum.


Passions: You and your partner engage in an exuberant sensual act. The ritual leaves both partners invigorated

I have many problems with this idea.

Cyclocone
2010-10-21, 09:18 AM
I have many problems with this idea.

But whom else could you really trust?:smallbiggrin:

Last Laugh
2010-10-21, 09:23 AM
But whom else could you really trust?:smallbiggrin:
I was of course referring to the fact that simulacrums are entirely composed of ice and snow :smalltongue:

Quietus
2010-10-21, 09:25 AM
But whom else could you really trust?:smallbiggrin:

They'd know exactly how you like it, that's for sure...

Psyren
2010-10-21, 09:26 AM
There's that "Sir Wisdom the SAD" build from Person_Man's X to Y thread. I'm too lazy to link it.




What was that class that was recommended to those who have all 8s in their abilities?

The Wallock.

Binder should work too, though I'd need time to come up with a build.

Person_Man
2010-10-21, 09:46 AM
Sir Wisdom the SAD

Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons (including your uber Claws of the Beast).

Enhanced Elan Resilience feat (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.

Cyclocone
2010-10-21, 09:47 AM
I was of course referring to the fact that simulacrums are entirely composed of ice and snow :smalltongue:

Ah yes... that could get ugly.:smalleek:

Psyren
2010-10-21, 09:54 AM
@ Person_Man: Yeah, that's the one

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 10:01 AM
How does one handle the "partner" part without DM intervention? Leadership?

Also, what was the feat that allowed Cha to HP for Undead? And where can i find it?

Combo of Cha to HP for Undead PLUS Int to HP? Yes. Because I think the Cha to HP for Undead does not replace Con.

Also, relevant link is relevant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160641).

Myth
2010-10-21, 10:02 AM
Sir Wisdom the SAD

Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).

Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.

Intuitive Attack feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons (including your uber Claws of the Beast).

Enhanced Elan Resilience feat (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).

Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.

To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.

This! I must play this! I must play it soon!

How much Wis can one get by lvl 20? As an Elan you can start with 18, get a + 6 enhancement bonus from a Periapt of Wisdom and read a tome (or Wish for) a +5 inherent bonus. So far that's 29 but I'm sure we can do better!

senrath
2010-10-21, 11:24 AM
This! I must play this! I must play it soon!

How much Wis can one get by lvl 20? As an Elan you can start with 18, get a + 6 enhancement bonus from a Periapt of Wisdom and read a tome (or Wish for) a +5 inherent bonus. So far that's 29 but I'm sure we can do better!

You're forgetting the +5 from leveling. That's 34.

Person_Man
2010-10-21, 11:25 AM
There's also the Totemist. His Save DC's are all based on Constitution, and various breath weapon soulmelds don't require an attack roll. You could easily mix in Warblade for Action Before Thought (Reflex Saves), Moment of Perfect Mind (Will Saves), and Insightful Strike (damage). Maybe a level of Fist of the Forest for AC. Depending on the ECL, you might want to use Totem Rager so you don't screw up your chakra bind progression too much. Dragonborn Mongrelfolk for +6 to Con and another breath weapon, and you're set.

Haarkla
2010-10-21, 12:00 PM
Sir Wisdom the SAD

Elan Paladin 4/Sanctified Mind 1/War Mind 5/Sanctified Mind 2-6

A Paladin using the Serenity feat (Dragon Magazine, also on Crystalkeep) uses Wis instead of Cha for all of his class abilities. So now your Wis improves all of your Saves (and it effectively doubles up on your Will Save), and you can use it for Smite (bonus to hit) and Turn Undead uses (various Divine feats).
While improved saves are good, smite evil is very weak.



Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) is 6 level, full BAB PrC which provides 5/6 caster or manifester progression (player's choice, and you can explicitly change which you take each level) with the dead level being the first level of the class. Unlike most other classes, you can enter it at ECL 5. It also has some semi-useful class abilities, including Power Resistance based on your HD, which counts as Spell Resistance if your DM is using the transparency rules.

War Mind (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:War_Mind) is a nifty PrC. His best class feature is Sweeping Strike, which can be abused all kinds of ways with Attack of Opportunity combos. But he also gets Wis based Psychic Warrior power progression. It's relatively fast progression, too. At ECL 15, you essentially have the same powers as a 15th level Psychic Warrior.
Good, but is still Psychic Warrior power progression.



Intuitive Attack feat (Book of Exalted Deeds) allows you to use your Wis bonus for your To-Hit bonus with simple or natural weapons (including your uber Claws of the Beast).
You're restricted to simple weapons. In melee, your best damage dice is d8 and you dont get WIS to damage. Your best weapon is the crossbow.


Enhanced Elan Resilience feat (Complete Psionic) improves your Elan ability to spend your Power Points (based on Wis) to negate damage to 4 points per power point spent. You can also burn 1 point to get +4 to your Saves for 1 round. Though you need to be careful about this, as both are an Immediate Action, and thus can be done once per round. Alternatively or in addition, you can also get temporary hit points with the Vigor power, and/or heal with Hostile Empathic Transfer when you need to. And/or you can set up the standard Claws of the Beast + Claws of the Vampire + Expansion combo. Just be mindful that you have very limited power points (though you're helped out by bonus power points from a high Wis).
OK.


Buy a Monk's Belt, and you get Wis to AC (including Touch AC). Improve both AC's even higher by using the Shield and Inertial Armor powers. And since you're not wearing armor, you can buy a Ring of Evasion, just to be extra cautious.
You are attempting to gain the class features of a monk. Armour is just better.



To top it off, take a look at the Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) to get free movement every turn, so that you can make a full attack every round. (Not that you need it. You have Hustle. But it's nice to be thorough).

Put it all together, and you get a PC who has Wis based Turn Undead, Saves, To-Hit, AC, and (essentially) hit points, with full BAB, 15th level Psychic Warrior abilities, plenty of divine and psionic options, and numerous useful class abilities.
Crappy. Not SAD at all. Effectively you are a suboptimal monk restricted to poor weapons, who has to wait to 15th level to catch up with the casting power of a gish class. You need loads and loads of feats to make your build work. Try to actually construct a character using your build and you will see how poor it is.

As a SAD wisdom dependent class a straight cloistered cleric is better at every level.

Psyren
2010-10-21, 12:13 PM
While improved saves are good, smite evil is very weak.

The point is not the damage, it's that you get Wis to attack twice with simple weapons or once with a martial weapon.


You're restricted to simple weapons.

Correction: you're restricted to simple and natural weapons with IA. That means your Bite of the Wolf, Claws of the Beast, and/or whatever you metamorphosis into get Wis to attack twice. (IA + Smite)


You are attempting to gain the class features of a monk. Armour is just better.

The trouble with armor is that (a) it typically does nothing for your touch AC and (b) it does not stack with Inertial Armor.

Proclaiming it "just better" is premature.



Good, but is still Psychic Warrior power progression.


What's wrong with Psywar power progression? You're not a caster, you're a gish.



As a SAD wisdom dependent class a straight cloistered cleric is better at every level.

You mean a Tier 1 class is better than a Tier 3 mixed with a Tier 5? Stop the presses!

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 12:13 PM
As a SAD wisdom dependent class a straight cloistered cleric is better at every level.

Just a note, but using Tier 1 classes as an argument because they're better is a very, very poor argument.

Greenish
2010-10-21, 12:15 PM
The trouble with armor is that (a) it typically does nothing for your touch AC and (b) the stronger ones interfere with Dex checks (including the all-important Intiative.)Armour has no effect on Initiative. ACP only affects skills, max dex bonus is only for AC.

lsfreak
2010-10-21, 12:17 PM
The trouble with armor is that (a) it typically does nothing for your touch AC and (b) the stronger ones interfere with Dex checks (including the all-important Intiative.) Furthermore, it does not stack with Inertial Armor.

Correction: it interferes with Dex bonuses to AC. Max Dex effects nothing but your Dex to AC, you can still add it to initiate, skill checks, Reflex saves, ranged attacks, and anything else you'd want to.

Psyren
2010-10-21, 12:17 PM
Armour has no effect on Initiative. ACP only affects skills, max dex bonus is only for AC.

Oh my bad, I was thinking of the non-proficiency penalty (which I usually apply to psions who try and wear armor.) But since he's a pally/war mind he's proficient and wouldn't take the Initiative hit.

Will edit, thanks

Morph Bark
2010-10-21, 12:29 PM
Enjoy your cheese. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Faerie_Mysteries_Initiate)

:smallconfused: Sounds a little vague. Can you do more than one of those things or just one? Are they permanent or do they only last for a single day?

lsfreak
2010-10-21, 12:32 PM
:smallconfused: Sounds a little vague. Can you do more than one of those things or just one? Are they permanent or do they only last for a single day?

It says they last until you do it again and replace it with something else.

Person_Man
2010-10-21, 02:05 PM
Stuff

Psyren has helpfully rebutted each of your points. To demonstrate the numbers:

To-Hit: 1d20 + Full BAB + Wis bonus + psionic buffs + the occasional Wis bonus (a second time) from Smite Evil (which can get extra uses of via items or feats) + items/buffs/feats.
Damage: The difference between a simple weapon and a martial weapon is generally 1-2 points of damage per attack. That's essentially meaningless. You can also use Claws of the Beast, which gives you 12d6ish+ damage when optimized, and other natural weapons.
AC: 10 + Dex + Wis + Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) (4 + [manifester level - 1]/2) + other psionic buffs (Force Screen) and items/buffs/feats.
Reflex Save: 1d20 + Dex + Wis + Paladin/Sanctified/Warmind base bonuses + magic items/buffs/feats + 4 from Elan Resilience (if you have an Immediate Action and a power point)
Fort Save: 1d20 + Con + Wis + Paladin/Sanctified/Warmind base bonuses (all Strong Saves)+ items/buffs/feats + 4 from Elan Resilience.
Will Save: 1d20 + Wis + Wis (a second time) + Paladin/Sanctified/Warmind base bonuses (all Strong Saves)+ items/buffs/feats + 4 from Elan Resilience .
Hit Points: Already showed the math - you can spend Power Points to avert damage or heal several ways.


Is it as strong as a Cleric? No. I didn't claim it was as strong as a Cleric.
The OP wanted Wis to everything. I gave him Wis to pretty much everything.

137ben
2010-10-21, 02:11 PM
You can get charisma to AC, saves, attack rolls and damage. Often twice. If you are undead, you can also get it to hit points.

And spells (already mentioned), AND leadership bonuses. Oh, and the special abilities of lich and vampire which allow saves get a bonus to the DC from charisma.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-21, 02:44 PM
Sir Wisdom the SAD

You have enough feats open to qualify for Shiba Protector, right? Wis to attack and damage again.

lsfreak
2010-10-22, 01:00 AM
You have enough feats open to qualify for Shiba Protector, right? Wis to attack and damage again.

Thankfully, you only need a single feat to do that. Iron Will via the Otyug Hole, and Alertness via the Ioun Stone leaves you only needing Combat Expertise. That's Wis to attack and Wis to damage that stacks with everything, so that you can get your Wis bonus to attack rolls three times when you smite :smalleek::smalltongue:

Godskook
2010-10-22, 02:51 AM
Classic Sorcadin is still a major contender though:

Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/AbChamp 5/SacExo 8

Feats:
Arcane Preperation
Ascetic Mage
IUAS - pre-req
Combat Casting

Cha to AC, turning, Saves, spells, and to-hit/damage with their spells, at the very least.

Zaq
2010-10-22, 04:04 AM
No mention of the DFA? Just focus on your breath weapon and take invocations that don't allow saves and you don't need anything other than CON, which means that you won't even be squishy. For your saving throws, you can take Endurance -> Steadfast Determination for Will and just absorb Reflex saves with your HP, or you can take Martial Study for the three Diamond Mind save replacers (which are keyed off of Concentration, which is keyed off of CON) . . . or both. DFAs don't need many feats besides Entangling Breath and maybe Ability Focus. (Flyby Attack doesn't suck either.)