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BlackLamb
2010-10-22, 08:49 PM
Hi everyone.

I cut my teeth on 2nd edition D&D and while I like a lot of the 3.X innovations to the game, I still prefer flow and relative power levels of my beloved 2nd ed. I've made a few houserules to bridge the systems and thought I'd share them here for some possible feedback. First the chassis...

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort/Will Save|Ref Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|+0|+2|
+0|Domain|3|1+1

2nd|+1|+3|
+0|-|4|2+1|-

3rd|+2|+3|
+1|-|5|2+1|1+1|-

4th|+2|+4|
+1|Turn or Rebuke Undead|6|3+1|2+1|-|-

5th|+3|+4|
+1|-|6|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-

6th|+4|+5|
+2|-|6|4+1|3+1|2+1|-|-|-

7th|+4|+5|
+2|-|6|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

8th|+5|+6|
+2|Domain|6|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

9th|+6/+1|+6|
+3|-|6|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

10th|+6/+1|+7|
+3|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

11th|+7/+2|+7|
+3|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

12th|+8/+3|+8|
+4|Domain|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

13th|+8/+3|+8|
+4|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

14th|+9/+4|+9|
+4|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

15th|+10/+5|+9|
+5|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

16th|+10/+5|+10|
+5|Domain|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

17th|
+11/+6/+6|+10|
+5|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1

18th|
+12/+7/+7|+11|
+6|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1

19th|
+12/+7/+7|+11|
+6|-|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|3+1

20th|
+13/+8/+8|+12|
+6|Domain|6|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1|4+1[/table]


As you can see this Cleric is a little less front-loaded than standard 3.X. I think this is more in the spirit of the 3.X innovations of making gaining levels matter.
The next thing you'll notice is BAB progression is 2/3 instead of 3/4 which is keeping in line with 2nd edition. I also made both iterative attacks highest BAB -5, because again I think it's more in keeping with making gaining levels matter.
I futzed a little with the spell progression because at the level you get 5+1 spells per level you don't care about those spell levels, but I accelerated when you get 4+1 spells per level because you do still care about spell levels 2 lower than your highest. And I like that it brings Clerics and Wizards closer in line with each other.

Domains: Clerics start with one domain and gain additional domains at levels 8, 12, 16, 20. Your domain spell is a choice from 3 spells per domain at spell levels 1-3, 2 spells per domain at spell levels 4-6, and 1 spell per domain at spell levels 7-9. I've shrunk the cleric general spell list down and expanded the domain spell lists to make them more like 2nd edition spheres.

Turn Undead: 3.X turning is awful. It's too good at low levels and worthless at mid to high levels. So I updated the 2nd edition turn undead table to make use of some 3.Xisms. I also made turning undead primarily a paldin ability and have clerics turn or rebuke undead as a paladin three levels lower.

LEVEL OF PALADIN
{table=head]-|1|2-3|4-5|6|7-8|9-10|11|12-13|14-15|16|17-18|19+

1- HD|
15|
15|
15|T|T|D|D|D*|D*|D*|D*|D*

2 HD|
18|
18|
18|18|T|T|D|D|D*|D*|D*|D*

3-4 HD|
21|
21|
21|21|21|T|T|D|D|D*|D*|D*

5 HD|
24|
24|
24|24|24|24|T|T|D|D|D*|D*

6 HD|
25|
25|
25|25|25|25|25|T|T|D|D|D*

7 HD|
-|
27|
27|27|27|27|27|27|T|T|D|D

8 HD|
-|
-|
29|29|29|29|29|29|29|T|T|D

9 HD|
-|
-|
-|30|30|30|30|30|30|30|T|T

10 HD|
-|
-|
-|-|33|33|33|33|33|33|33|T

11-12 HD|
-|
-|
-|-|-|35|35|35|35|35|35|35

13-14 HD|
-|-|
-|-|-|-|36|36|36|36|36|36

15-16 HD|
-|-|
-|-|-|-|-|38|38|38|38|38

17+HD|
-|-|
-|-|-|-|-|-|40|40|40|40
[/table]

* An additional 1d4 + (cha modifier) creatures of this type are turned.

Frequency: You may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + (cha modifier). You may only make one attempt per encounter.

Range: 60 feet

Turning Check: Roll 1d20 and add your paladin level and charisma modifier. Compare that number to the above table to determine what hit die of undead you can effect. A T indicates that a creature of that hit die is turned regardless of roll and a D indicates that a creature of that hit die is dispelled.

Number Turned: 1d6+(paladin level)+(cha modifier). Lowest hit die are effected first.

Duration: Turned undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee for 10 rounds (1 minute). If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus). If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect, you just canít approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect.

To follow will be a revised Cleric / Domain spell list that I especially would like a critique of.

BlackLamb
2010-10-22, 08:56 PM
General List
1. Cause Fear, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Hide from Undead, Obscuring Mist, Shield of Faith.
2. Augury, Darkness, Find Traps, Remove Paralysis, Shield Other, Summon Monster II.
3. Continual Flame, Dispel Magic, Locate Object, Prayer, Searing Light, Water Walk.
4. Air Walk, Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Inflict Critical Wounds, Poison, Spell Immunity.
5. Commune, Flame Strike, Mark of Justice, Scrying, Symbol of Pain, Wall of Stone.
6. Banishment, Geas/Quest, Heal, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Planar Ally, Undeath to Death.
7. Ethereal Jaunt, Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Serious Wounds, Refuge, Summon Monster VII, Symbol of Weakness.
8. Antimagic Field, Earthquake, Greater Planar Ally, Greater Spell Immunity, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Symbol of Insanity.
9. Astral Projection, Etherealness, Mass Heal, Miracle, Storm of Vengeance, True Resurrection.

Animal Domain

Granted Powers: You can use speak with animals at will as a spell-like ability. Knowledge (nature) is now a class skill.

Animal Domain Spells
1. Calm Animals, Endure Elements, Summon Natureís Ally I.
2. Find Traps, Hold Animal, Summon Natureís Ally II.
3. Dominate Animal, Summon Natureís Ally III, Water Breathing.
4. Giant Vermin, Repel Vermin.
5. Commune with Nature, Insect Plague.
6. Antilife Shell, Summon Natureís Ally VI.
7. Animal Shapes.
8. Summon Natureís Ally VIII.
9. Shapechange

Chaos Domain

Granted Power: You cast chaos spells at +1 caster level.

Chaos Domain Spells
1. Detect Law, Entropic Shield, Protection from Law.
2. Align Weapon, Shatter, Sound Burst.
3. Bestow Curse, Magic Circle against Law, Wind Wall.
4. Chaos Hammer, Summon Monster IV.
5. Dispel Law, Summon Monster V.
6. Animate Objects, Forbiddance.
7. Word of Chaos.
8. Cloak of Chaos.
9. Summon Monster IX.

Death Domain

Granted Power: You may use a death touch once per day. Your death touch is a supernatural ability that produces a death effect. You must succeed on a melee touch attack against a living creature (using the rules for touch spells). When you touch, roll 1d6 per level you possess. If the total at least equals the creatureís current hit points, it dies (no save).

Death Domain Spells
1. Cause Fear, Deathwatch, Hide from Undead.
2. Death Knell, Desecrate, Gentle Repose.
3. Animate Dead, Contagion, Speak With Dead.
4. Death Ward, Sending.
5. Disrupting Weapon, Slay Living.
6. Antilife Shell, Create Undead.
7. Destruction.
8. Create Greater Undead.
9. Wail of the Banshee

Destruction Domain

Granted Power: You gain the smite power, the supernatural ability to make a single melee attack with a +Cha modifier bonus on attack rolls and a bonus on damage rolls equal to your level. This ability is usable once per day.

Destruction Domain Spells
1. Doom, Inflict Light Wounds, Summon Monster I.
2. Inflict Moderate Wounds, Shatter, Sonic Vibrations.
3. Contagion, Inflict Serious Wounds, Searing Light.
4. Dismissal, Inflict Critical Wounds.
5. Break Enchantment, Mass Inflict Light Wounds.
6. Harm, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds.
7. Disintegrate.
8. Earthquake.
9. Implosion

Earth Domain

Granted Power: Gain gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both you and your foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, you take a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Gain +4 to Bullrush maneuvers.

Earth Domain Spells
1. Endure Elements, Magic Stone, Sanctuary.
2. Make Whole, Resist Energy, Soften Earth and Stone.
3. Meld into Stone, Protection from Energy, Stone Shape.
4. Dimension Door, Spike Stones.
5. Plane Shift, Wall of Stone.
6. Move Earth, Stoneskin.
7. Earthquake.
8. Iron Body.
9. Elemental Swarm

Evil Domain

Granted Power: You cast evil spells at +1 caster level.

Evil Domain Spells
1. Detect Good, Curse Water, Protection from Good.
2. Align Weapon, Death Knell, Desecrate.
3. Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Magic Circle against Good.
4. Summon Monster IV, Unholy Blight.
5. Dispel Good, Unhallow.
6. Create Undead, Forbiddance.
7. Blasphemy.
8. Unholy Aura.
9. Summon Monster IX

Fire Domain

Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a paladin turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Fire Domain Spells
1. Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Endure Elements.
2. Produce Flame, Pyrotechinics, Resist Energy.
3. Continual Flame, Fireball, Protection from Energy.
4. Fire Trap, Wall of Fire.
5. Flame Strike, Fire Shield.
6. Banishment, Fire Seeds.
7. Fire Storm.
8. Incendiary Cloud.
9. Elemental Swarm

Good Domain

Granted Power: You cast good spells at +1 caster level.

Good Domain Spells
1. Bless Water, Detect Evil, Protection from Evil
2. Aid, Align Weapon, Consecrate
3. Create Food and Water, Helping Hand, Magic Circle against Evil.
4. Holy Smite, Summon Monster IV.
5. Dispel Evil, Hallow.
6. Blade Barrier, Forbiddance.
7. Holy Word.
8. Holy Aura.
9. Summon Monster IX.

Healing Domain

Granted Power: You cast healing spells at +1 caster level.

Healing Domain Spells
1. Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Remove Fear.
2. Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis
3. Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease.
4. Cure Critical Wounds, Restoration.
5. Mass Cure Light Wounds, Raise Dead.
6. Heal, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds.
7. Regenerate.
8. Mass Cure Critical Wounds
9. Mass Heal

Knowledge Domain

Granted Power: Add all Knowledge skills to your list of class skills. You cast divination spells at +1 caster level.

Knowledge Domain Spells
1. Detect (Alignment), Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead.
2. Detect Thoughts, Find Traps, Status.
3. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Locate Object, Speak with Dead.
4. Discern Lies, Divination.
5. Scrying, True Seeing.
6. Find the Path, Word of Recall.
7. Legend Lore.
8. Discern Location.
9. Foresight

Law Domain

Granted Power: You cast law spells at +1 caster level.

Law Domain Spells
1. Command, Detect Chaos, Protection from Chaos.
2. Align Weapon, Calm Emotions, Hold Person.
3. Invisibility Purge, Magic Circle against Chaos, Stone Shape.
4. Orderís Wrath, Summon Monster IV.
5. Dispel Chaos, Summon Monster V.
6. Forbiddance, Hold Monster.
7. Dictum.
8. Shield of Law.
9. Summon Monster IX

Luck Domain

Granted Power: You gain the power of good fortune, which is usable once per day. This extraordinary ability allows you to reroll one roll that you have just made before the game master declares whether the roll results in success or failure. You must take the result of the reroll, even if itís worse than the original roll.

Luck Domain Spells
1. Bane, Bless, Entropic Shield.
2. Aid, Find Traps, Status.
3. Bestow Curse, Prayer, Protection from Energy.
4. Freedom of Movement, Tongues.
5. Break Enchantment, Flame Strike.
6. Find the Path, Mislead.
7. Spell Turning.
8. Moment of Prescience.
9. Miracle

Metal domain

Granted Powers: You gain Proficiency and +1 to hit with any hammer.

Metal Domain Spells
1. Entropic Shield, Magic Weapon, Sanctuary.
2. Heat Metal, Make Whole, Spiritual Weapon.
3. Glyph of Warding, Keen Edge, Magic Vestment.
4. Greater Magic Weapon, Rusting Grasp.
5. Disrupting Weapon, Wall of Iron.
6. Animate Objects, Blade Barrier.
7. Transmute Metal to Wood.
8. Iron Body.
9. Repel Metal or Stone.

Protection Domain

Granted Power: You can generate a protective ward as a supernatural ability. Grant someone you touch a resistance bonus equal to your level on his or her next saving throw. Activating this power is a standard action. The protective ward is an abjuration effect with a duration of 1 hour that is usable once per day.

Protection Domain Spells
1. Protection from Alignment, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith.
2. Resist Energy, Shield Other, Silence.
3. Deeper Darkness, Glyph of Warding, Protection from Energy.
4. Death Ward, Spell Immunity.
5. Spell Resistance, Wall of Stone.
6. Antimagic Field, Blade Barrier.
7. Repulsion.
8. Mind Blank.
9. Prismatic Sphere

Sun Domain

Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning. The greater turning is like a normal turning except that the undead creatures that would be turned are destroyed instead.

Sun Domain Spells
1. Cause Fear, Endure Elements, Remove Fear.
2. Heat Metal, Resist Energy, Zone of Truth.
3. Continual Flame, Daylight, Searing Light.
4. Fire Shield, Lesser Planar Ally.
5. Flame Strike, Plane Shift.
6. Fire Seeds, Planar Ally.
7. Sunbeam.
8. Sunburst.
9. Prismatic Sphere

Tactics Domain

Granted Power: Add Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth to your list of class skills.

Tactics Domain Spells
1. Disguise Self, Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon.
2. Invisibility, Spiritual Weapon, Wind Wall.
3. Gaseous Form, Magic Vestment, Nondetection.
4. Confusion, Spell Immunity.
5. Control Winds, False Vision.
6. Chain Lightning, Mislead.
7. Screen.
8. Polymorph Any Object.
9. Time Stop

Travel Domain

Granted Powers: Gain Freedom of Movement (self only) as a continuous effect. Add Survival to your list of class skills.

Travel Domain Spells
1. Comprehend Languages, Endure Elements, Longstrider.
2. Darkness, Locate Object, Undetectable Alignment.
3. Create Food and Water, Fly, Water Walk.
4. Air Walk, Dimension Door.
5. Plane Shift, Teleport.
6. Find the Path, Wind Walk.
7. Greater Teleport.
8. Phase Door: Creates an invisible passage through wood or stone.
9. Astral Projection

Water Domain

Granted Power: Turn or destroy fire creatures as a paladin turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster water creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Water Domain Spells
1. Endure Elements, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I.
2. Calm Emotions, Fog Cloud, Resist Energy.
3. Gaseous Form, Stinking Cloud, Water Breathing.
4. Control Water, Solid Fog.
5. Ice Storm, Scrying.
6. Cone of Cold, Heroesí Feast.
7. Acid Fog.
8. Horrid Wilting.
9. Elemental Swarm

Wood Domain

Granted Powers: Rebuke or command plant creatures as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. Use this ability a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability. Add Knowledge (nature) to your list of class skills.

Wood Domain Spells
1. Endure Elements, Entangle, Obscuring Mist.
2. Barkskin, Warp Wood, Wood Shape.
3. Create Food and Water, Plant Growth, Protection from Energy.
4. Antiplant Shell, Command Plants.
5. Planeshift, Wall of Thorns.
6. Ironwood, Repel Wood.
7. Animate Plants
8. Control Plants.
9. Shambler

BlackLamb
2010-10-22, 08:59 PM
Man I suck at HTML:smallfrown:

arguskos
2010-10-22, 09:04 PM
Man I suck at HTML:smallfrown:
That's cause we don't use it on these forums. We use BBCode. Check here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) for this forum's table code. It's pretty easy to use, since Fax made an amazing guide. :smallcool:

Temotei
2010-10-22, 09:09 PM
When you do copy-paste the table code, make sure you make the <br> into [br], or just get rid of it altogether. I don't like it in there, so I delete it.

Actually, I just copy-paste from my other classes when I make a new one, but that's just me.

BlackLamb
2010-10-22, 11:18 PM
Thanks guys. I think it's readable now.

Mulletmanalive
2010-10-23, 05:16 AM
because of the strange way that undead are designed in 3.5, this version of Turn Undead is more or less as useless as the previous version at higher levels.

If you're using Pathfinder undead, then it MIGHT work, but otherwise, it could probably do with some alterations. I like the fact that it's not so negating of a creature type that works best in numbers now but its still not hugely useful at top end and compresses all of the higher level critters into one band. The idea that an Undead Hulk is more difficult to turn than a fully fledged level 12 Lich has always been one of the issues with 3.5

You'd probably be better off [forgive the heresy on the subject] basing the turning effect on the creature's CR rather than HD...

As an aside, I made exactly the same decision of making paladins the turners :smallbiggrin: Fools never differ, eh? :smalltongue:

BlackLamb
2010-10-23, 11:15 AM
You make a good point about HD being a poor standard, even 2nd edition had special columns for specific types of undead and the most difficult to turn were free-willed undead like the 12 level Lich.

The main reason I didn't do it that way was laziness, I didn't want to page through the MM and try to assign turning strata for each individual entry.

Even though I gave mixed feelings about the CR system, I think basing it off of CR is a really good suggestion. Turn Resistance would mean an Undead is turned as if it had a higher CR rather than HD.

Thanks for the feedback!