PDA

View Full Version : MAGIC MITHILL[Essentials]



Christopher K.
2010-10-23, 04:04 PM
Hey everybody, I'm currently DMing a group with a player who plays a Wizard, but only uses Magic Missile. He doesn't move(even when I have monsters that attack him) and to be frank, it's kinda boring. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could encourage(NOT force) him to use his other spells?

Urpriest
2010-10-23, 04:08 PM
Have you tried asking him why he only uses Magic Missile?

Christopher K.
2010-10-23, 04:09 PM
It's because it never misses.

Shadowleaf
2010-10-23, 04:11 PM
Have him train under another Wizard, who tells him how to use his spells effectively?

Tell him out of character, that he will have to use other spells if he wants to contribute properly?

Have opponents show him how spells can be used.

Give him a scenario where Magic Missile cannot be used.

Etc etc.

Bakkan
2010-10-23, 04:15 PM
If this is not low-level, you could try throwing a creature with Spell Resistance at the party depending on their level. I suspect your Wizard may be more interested in other options if his primary one is failing 50% of the time.

If it is low-level then how is the Wizard surviving being attacked with only 6-20 HP?

Try creating an environment where he doesn't have LoS to the enemies (terrain, walls, etc. Kobolds running through their little tunnels could work).

Creature situations that would be well handled by some of the Wizard's utility spells. Don't have a rogue? Toss him a locked door and "remind" him to cast Knock (if he knows it/has it prepared) or note that he could use Knock (if he doesn't).

If your PCs are high enough level to have any reputation at all, have the next big boss they face either be a caster with Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) up (negating MMs) or have him be wearing a Brooch of Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broochofShielding). The first is an excellent defensive spell for casters anyway, and the second is something any big bad would have if he thought there was a MM-wizard gunning for him.

Finally, have the party face a more versatile wizard (maybe with Shield up?) to show thew player a little bit of what the Wizard is really capable of. It's possible the player doesn't realize how many fun things Wizard spells can do.

EDIT: Also, point out how reliable touch attacks are, how much more damage an Orb of Acid, Scorching Ray, or Combust spell is, and how the implied damage he can create (e.g. by casting Grease, allowing the rogue to get multiple Sneak Attacks on the balancing characters) can far surpass the 1d4+1+(1d4+1)/2 levels over 1 damage the magic missile does.

Tyndmyr
2010-10-23, 04:16 PM
Alternatively, introduce him to metamagic and force missile mage.

JRKlein
2010-10-23, 04:17 PM
What level is said wizard? I'll assume level 1: Magic Missile only does 7 damage at best. Look up some enemies with relatively-weak defenses but high HP. Maybe he'll realize MM isn't always the best choice when he's chipping away at something with (for example) 57 HP.

Christopher K.
2010-10-23, 04:17 PM
Have him train under another Wizard, who tells him how to use his spells effectively?
Connor's idea of an effective spell is to cast Magic Missile. Over and over and over. I pray he doesn't find out about the Wizard's Fury power.


Tell him out of character, that he will have to use other spells if he wants to contribute properly?
Contributing properly is the least of Connor's concerns, and generally that's alright. This is the single thing that bugs me.


Have opponents show him how spells can be used.
The party just fought Malareth(the wizard from the starter set's adventure) and brutally slaughtered him. The fighter then jumped on him while wearing full plate armor to "Make sure the necromancer stays dead."


Give him a scenario where Magic Missile cannot be used.
I've considered this, but I'm at a loss for deciding how such a scenario would come to be.

Connor's playing a level 2 wizard, but has thus far managed to survive by using Magic Missile alone. (And occasionally fleeing from goblins or kobolds that jab him with spears.) He's had two near-death experiences and they have yet to seem to shake him.

Mando Knight
2010-10-23, 04:17 PM
You could put a big group of minions together, or introduce a monster with resistance to Force damage. You can also trap the floors in a way that encourages movement (i.e. a blaster trap that gets an attack whenever a player ends his turn without moving). You can also use Lurkers, who have that nasty tendency to not be visible. Hiding prevents Magic Missile from doing much of anything unless you know where the target is hiding (no, firing Magic Missile at the darkness does not work).

Aron Times
2010-10-23, 04:19 PM
For those of you who haven't noticed, the OP is referring to a 4e game.

kyoryu
2010-10-23, 04:27 PM
Enemies with the ability to shift, allowing them to get behind cover negating MM... or, on a similar note, area effects that can be cast from covered areas to hit the wizard while preventing MM from being used.

Enemies with large hit points, but weak defenses.

Enemies which do massive damage, but are relatively easy to control.

Large swarms of enemies (minions might work well for this).

What powers *does* he have?

Urpriest
2010-10-23, 04:35 PM
It's because it never misses.

Then just show him the math. One of his other at-wills is probably more damaging on average.

Also, ask him what type of control he's using. If he looks confused, say that since he's a controller, he's controlling the enemies' actions/choices, right? So what is he doing about that?

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-23, 04:38 PM
If this is not low-level, you could try throwing a creature with Spell Resistance at the party depending on their level. I suspect your Wizard may be more interested in other options if his primary one is failing 50% of the time.

If it is low-level then how is the Wizard surviving being attacked with only 6-20 HP?

Try creating an environment where he doesn't have LoS to the enemies (terrain, walls, etc. Kobolds running through their little tunnels could work).

Creature situations that would be well handled by some of the Wizard's utility spells. Don't have a rogue? Toss him a locked door and "remind" him to cast Knock (if he knows it/has it prepared) or note that he could use Knock (if he doesn't).

If your PCs are high enough level to have any reputation at all, have the next big boss they face either be a caster with Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) up (negating MMs) or have him be wearing a Brooch of Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broochofShielding). The first is an excellent defensive spell for casters anyway, and the second is something any big bad would have if he thought there was a MM-wizard gunning for him.

Finally, have the party face a more versatile wizard (maybe with Shield up?) to show thew player a little bit of what the Wizard is really capable of. It's possible the player doesn't realize how many fun things Wizard spells can do.

EDIT: Also, point out how reliable touch attacks are, how much more damage an Orb of Acid, Scorching Ray, or Combust spell is, and how the implied damage he can create (e.g. by casting Grease, allowing the rogue to get multiple Sneak Attacks on the balancing characters) can far surpass the 1d4+1+(1d4+1)/2 levels over 1 damage the magic missile does.

Psst: fourth edition.

Essentials. It's right there in the thread title, dude.

Siosilvar
2010-10-23, 04:39 PM
If this is not low-level, you could try throwing a creature with Spell Resistance at the party depending on their level. I suspect your Wizard may be more interested in other options if his primary one is failing 50% of the time.

If it is low-level then how is the Wizard surviving being attacked with only 6-20 HP?

Try creating an environment where he doesn't have LoS to the enemies (terrain, walls, etc. Kobolds running through their little tunnels could work).

Creature situations that would be well handled by some of the Wizard's utility spells. Don't have a rogue? Toss him a locked door and "remind" him to cast Knock (if he knows it/has it prepared) or note that he could use Knock (if he doesn't).

If your PCs are high enough level to have any reputation at all, have the next big boss they face either be a caster with Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) up (negating MMs) or have him be wearing a Brooch of Shielding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#broochofShielding). The first is an excellent defensive spell for casters anyway, and the second is something any big bad would have if he thought there was a MM-wizard gunning for him.

Finally, have the party face a more versatile wizard (maybe with Shield up?) to show thew player a little bit of what the Wizard is really capable of. It's possible the player doesn't realize how many fun things Wizard spells can do.

EDIT: Also, point out how reliable touch attacks are, how much more damage an Orb of Acid, Scorching Ray, or Combust spell is, and how the implied damage he can create (e.g. by casting Grease, allowing the rogue to get multiple Sneak Attacks on the balancing characters) can far surpass the 1d4+1+(1d4+1)/2 levels over 1 damage the magic missile does.

I know that none of this is remotely related to 4e, and I don't even play 4e.

That would be decent advice in 3.5 though, and I'm sure some of it translates relatively well...

Thajocoth
2010-10-23, 04:46 PM
Use experience.


Let him continue doing it. He'll eventually see how little of an effect he has... Or his character will die.

Also, point out to him that he can cast Magic Missile and move on the same turn.

At least his turns are faster, since there's no decision-making.

Definitely point out to him the Wizard's Fury daily power and any powers that use non-standard actions, so the rest of the party doesn't get completely screwed over as one of their players doesn't increase in power.

I think there's an item that lets you recharge a low level Daily power. That's a good idea for him if you can find it.

Mando Knight
2010-10-23, 04:53 PM
That would be decent advice in 3.5 though, and I'm sure some of it translates relatively well...

The Brooch of Shielding, for example, does grant Resist Force as its property in 4e. It's not total immunity to Magic Missile, but a Brute with it on could shrug off dozens of them while smashing the poor wizard across the room with his battleaxe or greatclub.

Reluctance
2010-10-23, 06:01 PM
First things first. How much 3e experience does this guy have, and has he made a point of comparing editions? I've seen enough people make protest characters and come into things with a bad mood, and there's not much you can do when someone wants to dislike the game.

Second, if this isn't an essentials-only game, he sounds like he's playing his wizard as a striker. A very popular, if suboptimal, style for people coming in off earlier editions. My usual response to this is to file the serial numbers off an actual striker and rename it as some other type of wizard. The player gets their concept, plus they get mechanics that work with what they want to do.

Finally, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't essentials make a big deal about giving wizard powers half damage on a miss? It won't fix things, but if he knows that he's guaranteed to equal or exceed his MM effects with other powers, he might use them more freely. Alternately, give him a master's wand of magic missile, interpret the effect liberally, and hope that the push effect gives him a taste of what controlling is really about.

Bakkan
2010-10-23, 06:46 PM
Psst: fourth edition.

Essentials. It's right there in the thread title, dude.

Yeah, I noticed that in his next post after I posted. I don't know what Essentials is, hence the confusion.

Morph Bark
2010-10-23, 06:47 PM
Alternatively, introduce him to metamagic and force missile mage.

Force Missile Mage indeed sounds perfect for this character.

EDIT: Right after posting, I notice it's 4E. No such luck then!

true_shinken
2010-10-23, 07:43 PM
Alternatively, introduce him to metamagic and force missile mage.

It's D&D Essentials.

Edit: doubly swordsage'd

Shatteredtower
2010-10-23, 09:35 PM
Minions are your friends here. The longer it takes to wipe them out, the more dangerous they can be. Higher level minions make the point even better.

If your wizard player has a sweet tooth, using wrapped candies as minion counters may also help. The player that drops the minion gets the candy. As this favours the wizard heavily, you might want to give similar awards to other players every time they make good use of their abilities.

This only helps with spells affecting more than one target, but that's a good place to start. You might be able to demonstrate the rest through other players employing terrain features that impede enemies without doing damage. Skirmishers, such as the kobold quickblade, often do more damage when they're free to move about. Effects that slow or immobilize them, such a simple grab, diminish that threat. Emphasize how much such effects help against such foes. It will eventually sink in that several spells offer those effects or can guide enemies toward limiting terrain.

Urpriest
2010-10-23, 09:38 PM
Ooh, here's an idea: have an enemy controller with very similar powers use them well. See if he catches on.

Randel
2010-10-24, 02:14 AM
Wait, if this is 4th edition then isn't Magic Missile just a regular at-will power that targets reflex? 4th edition Magic missile isn't auto-hit, it doesn't even fire off multiple missiles as you get higher in level, it just has a longer range then the other wizard at-wills. He should be firing off scorching burst or ray of frost or cloud of daggers or something.

OracleofWuffing
2010-10-24, 02:20 AM
Wait, if this is 4th edition then isn't Magic Missile just a regular at-will power that targets reflex? 4th edition Magic missile isn't auto-hit, it doesn't even fire off multiple missiles as you get higher in level, it just has a longer range then the other wizard at-wills. He should be firing off scorching burst or ray of frost or cloud of daggers or something.
That matter was errated (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateJuly2010.pdf)(pdf) in July 2010, it's an auto hit now.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-24, 03:59 AM
If you can find the old magic missile, you could change it back to that to encourage him to use other powers. I mean, in my opinion, autohit aside, I liked old magic missile a little more.

Edit: Lol, "if you can find", I'm acting like they came in and re-wrote the PHB while we slept

Kurald Galain
2010-10-24, 04:35 AM
Hey everybody, I'm currently DMing a group with a player who plays a Wizard, but only uses Magic Missile. He doesn't move(even when I have monsters that attack him) and to be frank, it's kinda boring. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I could encourage(NOT force) him to use his other spells?

Show him other spells that never miss, 4.4 has several of those. Actually, so does the PHB1, in the form of Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, and Wall of Fire.

Alternatively, put a group of monsters near a cliff. Point out repeatedly that oh look, he can use Beguiling Strands (he did take Beguiling Strands, I hope?) to push all of them over the cliff, killing them instantly. Point out that killing something is better than dealing 8 damage, and that if you target three monsters with a 60% hit chance, you are practically guaranteed to hit something, and that you'll have three chances to roll a Critical. We all like Criticals, right? Add some monsters that explode when critted (all zombies, basically).

(edit) another suggestion: use swarms, and point out repeatedly how area effect spells deal +5 damage to swarms, and how single-target spells deal half damage.

(edit) yet another suggestion: have an enemy Dominate him, and then force him to use his better powers against the party. Then have one of the players exclaim "dude, why don't you ever do that to our enemies?" Magic Missile is pretty much the weakest wizard at-will in the book, so anything else he has is going to be better.

Shademan
2010-10-24, 04:58 AM
It's because it never misses.

it never kills either

Iceciro
2010-10-24, 07:11 AM
I'm going to agree with the plan of having someone else Dominate him and assault the party with his better powers.

Alternatively: You're the GM. Invent monsters that resist magic missile specifically, or better - reflect it.

What's the situation in the game, is there a big bad they can blame that on, or are they just doing a crawl?

Attilargh
2010-10-24, 08:03 AM
yet another suggestion: have an enemy Dominate him, and then force him to use his better powers against the party.
This could work, but this could also backfire horribly. Personally, I don't think I'd be very open to any advice after the GM has essentially taken my sheet away and said "here, let me show how it's done", and then left me holding the RP what-the-hell-dude bag to boot.

For the same effort, you could simply bring out an evil twin/magical clone/doppelgänger of the character (or just an enemy wizard with the exact same list of spells) and have him wipe the floor with the party while the wizard tries to pewpewpew him to death.

If you want to engage in some psychological warfare, make the double look totally awesome while he's doing it. Stack the terrain in his favour, plan for every occasion, drop the other party members in snake pits and so on. Then, after a few rounds of making fools of the party, make him get overconfident and leave himself open for some of his own medicine. If Connor still prefers to fire magic missiles after a few of such opportunities, let the baddie get away, laughing all the way into the sunset.

ninja_penguin
2010-10-24, 09:27 AM
(edit) yet another suggestion: have an enemy Dominate him, and then force him to use his better powers against the party. Then have one of the players exclaim "dude, why don't you ever do that to our enemies?" Magic Missile is pretty much the weakest wizard at-will in the book, so anything else he has is going to be better.

In 4e, doesn't dominate only let you use at-will powers, to avoid blowing the player's dailies on others? I suppose you could fudge it past just to go 'see! this is what you could be doing', but if dominate lets you do that, I must have mis-read something, and I've been letting my players off easy.



For the same effort, you could simply bring out an evil twin/magical clone/doppelgänger of the character (or just an enemy wizard with the exact same list of spells) and have him wipe the floor with the party while the wizard tries to pewpewpew him to death.

this would work, too. Just make sure there's enough backup so the strikers dont obliterate it immediately.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-24, 09:33 AM
In 4e, doesn't dominate only let you use at-will powers, to avoid blowing the player's dailies on others?

Yes, but his other two at-wills are pretty much guaranteed to be better than Magic Missile anyway.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 01:34 PM
Yes, but his other two at-wills are pretty much guaranteed to be better than Magic Missile anyway.

How does the dominating party know that if the wizard never uses them?

Urpriest
2010-10-24, 01:37 PM
How does the dominating party know that if the wizard never uses them?

Irrelevant. You're assuming Dominate has static fluff, and it doesn't. Dominate could just as easily be fluffed as the character going mad with power or the like, using his own abilities. The character knowledge/player knowledge distinction is primarily a 3.5 thing, not a 4e thing.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-24, 01:44 PM
Irrelevant.

No, it's quite relevant, if you don't want to be seen as heavy handed. Getting the player involved here is better.

Aron Times
2010-10-24, 02:39 PM
Dominate only lets you use at-will powers of your victim. Grazzt has a special version of Dominate that allows for encounter powers, but he's an epic-level solo demon prince, so there.

DementedFellow
2010-10-24, 03:39 PM
I realize that D&D has an emphasis on combat, but maybe this player thinks that is how his character should behave in battle. Or maybe the battle part bores him and he is stellar out of combat.

I just find something ...wrong with a DM wanting to dictate how a character plays, especially when it doesn't destroy the game.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-24, 04:48 PM
How does the dominating party know that if the wizard never uses them?
Because dominate is mind control, and as part of mind control you can read certain surface parts of the victim's mind, e.g. what his at-will powers are or which of his allies is the most squishy.

It is entirely valid for a succubus to dominate a ranger and command him to "attack his most vulnerable ally", causing him to target the rogue even if the succubus doesn't know that the rogue has the lowest AC in the party, and even if the succubus hasn't spotted the rogue yet.

WitchSlayer
2010-10-24, 05:30 PM
Show him other spells that never miss, 4.4 has several of those. Actually, so does the PHB1, in the form of Flaming Sphere, Stinking Cloud, and Wall of Fire.

Alternatively, put a group of monsters near a cliff. Point out repeatedly that oh look, he can use Beguiling Strands (he did take Beguiling Strands, I hope?) to push all of them over the cliff, killing them instantly. Point out that killing something is better than dealing 8 damage, and that if you target three monsters with a 60% hit chance, you are practically guaranteed to hit something, and that you'll have three chances to roll a Critical. We all like Criticals, right? Add some monsters that explode when critted (all zombies, basically).

(edit) another suggestion: use swarms, and point out repeatedly how area effect spells deal +5 damage to swarms, and how single-target spells deal half damage.

(edit) yet another suggestion: have an enemy Dominate him, and then force him to use his better powers against the party. Then have one of the players exclaim "dude, why don't you ever do that to our enemies?" Magic Missile is pretty much the weakest wizard at-will in the book, so anything else he has is going to be better.

There are a couple others that don't miss, too. Arcane Arrows was basically the old fashioned Magic Missile as a higher level encounter power.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-26, 08:18 PM
Because dominate is mind control, and as part of mind control you can read certain surface parts of the victim's mind, e.g. what his at-will powers are or which of his allies is the most squishy.

A character that never uses a power is unlikely to have any concept of it available among surface thoughts. The same is true of a character that has no idea how vulnerable the other party members are.

You can certainly justify it for the monster, but it is in everyone's best interests for you to show your work. Start with the dominator triggering the PC's usual preference. Have your monster say something like: "Well, that's not very exciting. What else have you got?"

Get an answer, demonstrate an ability or two, and follow the initial question up with such observations as, "Now that's more like it!"

Play to the character first, then the monster's power.

Blackfang108
2010-10-27, 04:02 PM
A character that never uses a power is unlikely to have any concept of it available among surface thoughts. The same is true of a character that has no idea how vulnerable the other party members are.

You can certainly justify it for the monster, but it is in everyone's best interests for you to show your work. Start with the dominator triggering the PC's usual preference. Have your monster say something like: "Well, that's not very exciting. What else have you got?"

Get an answer, demonstrate an ability or two, and follow the initial question up with such observations as, "Now that's more like it!"

Play to the character first, then the monster's power.

This is unnecessarily complicated and quite frankly, I can't believe that a reading of the dominate condition could engender this belief.

it says nowhere in the dominate condition that you must have seen the creature use an at-will in order to make the creature use it. Otherwise, how would Dominate work at high levels, when no at-wills may have been used yet in the fight?

Kurald Galain
2010-10-27, 04:15 PM
it says nowhere in the dominate condition that you must have seen the creature use an at-will in order to make the creature use it. Otherwise, how would Dominate work at high levels, when no at-wills may have been used yet in the fight?

*Squid thingy dominates Elan*

Flayer: Okay, bard guy, cast a fire bolt at that sword guy!
Elan: Er, I can't do that.
Flayer: Then shoot an arrow at him!
Elan: I don't know how to do that either.
Flayer: So stab him with your two daggers already!
Elan: I don't have two daggers.
Flayer: ... I give up.

DragonBaneDM
2010-10-27, 07:39 PM
Connor's idea of an effective spell is to cast Magic Missile. Over and over and over. I pray he doesn't find out about the Wizard's Fury power.


Contributing properly is the least of Connor's concerns, and generally that's alright. This is the single thing that bugs me.


The party just fought Malareth(the wizard from the starter set's adventure) and brutally slaughtered him. The fighter then jumped on him while wearing full plate armor to "Make sure the necromancer stays dead."


I've considered this, but I'm at a loss for deciding how such a scenario would come to be.

Connor's playing a level 2 wizard, but has thus far managed to survive by using Magic Missile alone. (And occasionally fleeing from goblins or kobolds that jab him with spears.) He's had two near-death experiences and they have yet to seem to shake him.

This is so weird...

My group's wizard is named Connor, and he too loves the MM.

Except we're level 27, bwahaha.

CorvidMP
2010-10-27, 08:38 PM
I realize that D&D has an emphasis on combat, but maybe this player thinks that is how his character should behave in battle. Or maybe the battle part bores him and he is stellar out of combat.

I just find something ...wrong with a DM wanting to dictate how a character plays, especially when it doesn't destroy the game.

I find it hard to believe his character has something in his background that says he panics in battle and just stands there shooting magic missles like an idiot.
Something should definitely be done though DnD, 4e in particular, is a a team sport, and he can definitely be ruining the other players fun. Just think every close to death battle the players now deal with won't, in their minds, be a hard won victory they eeked out with every bit of the power, ingenuity, and team work. They'll likely think of it as a near loss because bob the the wizard over there can't be bothered to think tactically and actually cast some damn spells. It's no fun. It is in fact annoying as all hell, i know because we have 2 players in my six man group that do almost this exact thing, its so bad our DM just balances things against five players.

Honestly though, the people who should really be handling this are the other players via RP, not the DM. Have them chew him a new one in character when he spends the whole fight just standing there and the tank has to abandon the other characters to save him again etc (or when they over whelmed with mobs of minions he could've stopped etc.). One of the more tactically minded characters could give hims lessons etc. Make the correction a chance for fun drama and RP

Mando Knight
2010-10-27, 09:08 PM
This is so weird...

My group's wizard is named Connor, and he too loves the MM.

Except we're level 27, bwahaha.

That's when MM is at its worst, though.

Player: "I use Magic Missile!"
DM: "Alright, the dragon takes about 2% of its total HP in damage. Next?"

Blackfang108
2010-10-27, 09:27 PM
*Squid thingy dominates Elan*

Flayer: Okay, bard guy, cast a fire bolt at that sword guy!
Elan: Er, I can't do that.
Flayer: Then shoot an arrow at him!
Elan: I don't know how to do that either.
Flayer: So stab him with your two daggers already!
Elan: I don't have two daggers.
Flayer: ... I give up.

I'd say it would read his mind, but... this IS Elan we're talking about. I would also point out that that's not 4e.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-28, 12:26 AM
This is unnecessarily complicated...

You have to be kidding.

No, really. If you won't take into account how the player would do things first in such circumstances, there's a shortcoming. The dominator starts by ordering an attack, and should get the sort of results you'd expect from the player. Your player deserves to see more effort from you before you go beyond that.

"What else you got?" is simple. Less is lazy.

Blackfang108
2010-10-28, 05:35 PM
You have to be kidding.

No, really. If you won't take into account how the player would do things first in such circumstances, there's a shortcoming. The dominator starts by ordering an attack, and should get the sort of results you'd expect from the player. Your player deserves to see more effort from you before you go beyond that.

"What else you got?" is simple. Less is lazy.

From the PHB I: page 277


DOMINATED
✦ You’re dazed.
✦ The dominating creature chooses your action. The
only powers it can make you use are at-will powers

Emphasis mine.

The player doesn't choose which at-will he uses, the monster does, according to it's preferences, not the player's. Therefore there's no reason for the monster to choose MM unless IT wants to, perhaps to knock someone who's already barely standing to negatives. Possibly the dominated individual.

Thajocoth
2010-10-28, 06:39 PM
From the PHB I: page 277

They errata'd that. Being dominated no longer means you're dazed. You still only get 1 action/round and no free actions... Same things as when you're dazed, but you don't count as dazed.

Mando Knight
2010-10-28, 07:08 PM
They errata'd that. Being dominated no longer means you're dazed. You still only get 1 action/round and no free actions... Same things as when you're dazed, but you don't count as dazed.

They didn't errata the part he bolded for emphasis. The dominator still gets to choose the dominated's action.

Thajocoth
2010-10-28, 11:01 PM
They didn't errata the part he bolded for emphasis. The dominator still gets to choose the dominated's action.

I didn't say they did. I was just pointing out the inaccuracy.

mobdrazhar
2010-10-28, 11:10 PM
one thing that i may suggest is if you decide to go with the evil doppelganger to show the wizard what his other powers can do then i would suggest to do it as an evil doppelganger adventuring party.

that way the wizard doesn't feel like he's being picked on. And secondly the rest of the party can have fun by either trying to "take themselves out" or using tactics and getting others to do it for dramatical sake.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-29, 07:02 AM
Emphasis mine.

Again, rules are subordinate to the characters. The rules tell you all sorts of ways a creature can seek an advantage, but that takes a back seat to characterisation. Not every brute is going to seek flanking opportunities. Some enemies will keep trying to use that power that slides a target one square--against your dwarf.

And a dominator's reasons for making you use abilities you never do should be supported through interaction.

The rules don't know how your players run their characters, because the rules don't think. They should not replace your ability to do so.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-29, 07:12 AM
Again, rules are subordinate to the characters. The rules tell you all sorts of ways a creature can seek an advantage, but that takes a back seat to characterisation. Not every brute is going to seek flanking opportunities. Some enemies will keep trying to use that power that slides a target one square--against your dwarf.
And some enemies will just keep attacking a tree rather than the party of adventurers that is killing them, right?

Seriously though, there is a clear difference between monsters that use sub-optimal tactics because it is in-character for them, and monsters acting stupid for no reason. A good rule of thumb is looking at the monster's int score. Mindless critters like a zombie can plausibly keep repeating something that simply doesn't work. Animal-intelligence critters don't do that. Certain cultures like orcs may avoid flanking (or fleeing) because they call it cowardly. Enemies with 15+ intelligence can plausibly know what the optimal tactic is and use it.

Incidentally, most dominating enemies tend to be highly intelligent.

Loren
2010-10-29, 07:33 AM
Despite the discussion of dominating, I don't think that it is the best way to expand a player's style. Many players I've seen will shut down when their character is dominated paying little attention to events on the table. This certainly is not true of all players, my point simply is that it is not a technique that is guaranteed to produce desirable results. (Furthermore, if the spell allows a saving throw you are only likely to get 1-2 turns to rock the wizard's world).

Personally, I'd be inclined to let nature take its course. Just keep running adventures. Sooner or later the player will get bored of doing the same thing and branch out, another character will intervene, or some one(s) will die and everyone will(should) reconsider tactics. This is a problem that will sort itself out on its own. To hurry the process you may want to increase the percentage of minions they face to encourage the wizard's use of control spells. A subtle hit now and then also might not hurt. But that's all that is really needed.

Seeing as they just finished the Red Box I'd guess that this player is new and there is a good chance he is young. Just give hime time to learn naturally, he will enjoy it more.
-----
edit, if an MM intervention is really needed let it be from a mentor. Try to avoid heavy handed tactics as much as possible when dealing with players.

edit 2, never let players bug you as the DM. Remember, it's just a game. If someone isn't good at it help them out, but you focus should be their enjoyment.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-29, 07:57 AM
Sure. The point is that "don't dominate the character because it's not nice to the player" is a good argument, but that "don't dominate because according to the rules dominate isn't supposed to work that way" is not.

Loren
2010-10-29, 07:59 AM
very true

(a 10-character requirement, eh. Thanks forum)

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-29, 08:30 AM
To be quite honest I genuinely find that using the PC's own powers against them was really quite amusing. I'd say that throwing in a Controlling monster now and again with a dominate-style power is a very good idea reguardless, it's almost a coincidence that you might be able to influence the player via it.

Renchard
2010-10-29, 08:53 AM
The player doesn't choose which at-will he uses, the monster does, according to it's preferences, not the player's. Therefore there's no reason for the monster to choose MM unless IT wants to, perhaps to knock someone who's already barely standing to negatives. Possibly the dominated individual.

There's nothing in the description of dominate that says that I, as a DM, can't use the player's at-will in any manner I deem appropriate, up to and including making a metagame point to the player.

And fluffing the Dominate as the monster rummaging through your surface thoughts is just cool.

Mando Knight
2010-10-29, 11:37 AM
one thing that i may suggest is if you decide to go with the evil doppelganger to show the wizard what his other powers can do then i would suggest to do it as an evil doppelganger adventuring party.

that way the wizard doesn't feel like he's being picked on. And secondly the rest of the party can have fun by either trying to "take themselves out" or using tactics and getting others to do it for dramatical sake.

If you do this, I suggest having it be a series of encounters, with one doppelganger in each (don't forget to play up the evil counterpart bit), with a few minions. Except for the Wizard, have the doppelgangers play almost exactly like the players, so when they face the Wizard, they'll expect Magic Missile spam. Then have him do almost everything the Wizard is capable of except Magic Missile.

Blackfang108
2010-10-29, 02:33 PM
If you do this, I suggest having it be a series of encounters, with one doppelganger in each (don't forget to play up the evil counterpart bit), with a few minions. Except for the Wizard, have the doppelgangers play almost exactly like the players, so when they face the Wizard, they'll expect Magic Missile spam. Then have him do almost everything the Wizard is capable of except Magic Missile.

Ooh, I LIKE that idea.

I may steal this next time I run a campaign. Or, heck, I may suggest it to my current DM. I have a feeling he'd like this idea. I'll even offer to update former characters for something like this.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-30, 04:33 PM
And some enemies will just keep attacking a tree rather than the party of adventurers that is killing them, right?

Seriously though, there is a clear difference between monsters that use sub-optimal tactics because it is in-character for them, and monsters acting stupid for no reason.

The monster in question is not acting stupidly. It is directing a dominated target to attack its allies. If the dominated party only uses one means to attack, a competent DM will have it employ that power first, with an intelligent monster possibly inquiring into other options if that one fails to impress.

I say possibly because it's not the DM's place to show up the player, especially one playing a character with a high intelligence score, such as a wizard. Surely this genius has a good reason for spamming magic missile? Perhaps not, but the enemy isn't likely to assume them. Intelligent beings are more likely to trust an enemy knows what it's doing until given reason to doubt it.

BobTheDog
2010-10-30, 06:03 PM
The monster in question is not acting stupidly. It is directing a dominated target to attack its allies. If the dominated party only uses one means to attack, a competent DM will have it employ that power first, with an intelligent monster possibly inquiring into other options if that one fails to impress.

I say possibly because it's not the DM's place to show up the player, especially one playing a character with a high intelligence score, such as a wizard. Surely this genius has a good reason for spamming magic missile? Perhaps not, but the enemy isn't likely to assume them. Intelligent beings are more likely to trust an enemy knows what it's doing until given reason to doubt it.

Let's say the fighter is facing a mob of minions and their succubus mistress. The fighter has been using only Cleave to try and chop down the minions two at a time, instead of using his other at-will (Reaping Strike). When dominated, for the succubus to order the fighter to Cleave his friends (who are not adjacent to each other), the only logical explanation is that:

a) the succubus has no idea that the fighter might be able to hit things in a different way than "try to hit two guys in a single sweep".
b) the succubus can only order the fighter to something she already "saw" happen.

a) would only happen for a very stupid succubus, and b) is countered by the rules.

Let's transfer this to our example:

Can you honestly tell me that it makes sense for a succubus, when controlling a dominated wizard, to believe that his only "basic magic" is that puny MM? Moreover, in order to follow the rules, instead of bending them for "logic" sake, isn't it appropriate to consider that if dominated only allows a monster to read surface thoughts (fluff), that all at-wills are constantly on a character's mind as he fights, since those are his basic combat maneuvers (even if he never uses them, he could if he wanted to).

Alternatively, any other explanation/rationalization that doesn't automatically make "use your other at-will" a split between rules and world? Seriously, I could give you a laundry list of fluff reasons why monsters should be able to select any at-will power, as well as a laundry list of why they shouldn't. Regardless of fluff, the rules should stand.

Thajocoth
2010-10-30, 11:17 PM
Dominating is a horrible idea. Almost every time I've seen an enemy with the ability to dominate, it doesn't hit, and when it does, gets countered, saved or ignored before the dominated player's turn.

Further... A Doppleganger can show off more. Dominating only gives you access to those 2 other at-wills. A monster has 1 At-Will, 1 Encounter, 1 Utility and 1 Daily. Apply the Wizard Template to a Brute (so it lasts more than a round and can therefore try out all it's tricks). By upgrading a monster from Standard to Elite for this, they also have an Action Point. (Use in the first round, before the party makes them blow up.)

If you really want to, you can make them a Wizard Wizard Wizard solo. That's 3 At-Wills, 3 Encounter powers, 3 Utilities and 3 Dailies (You'll have to forgo the Brute base, using Wizard as a base, but being Solo adds enough hp. Provide minions though.) I don't recommend this at level 2 though... Applying the template once should be enough.

Have the powers be the best of what the party's Wizard has... Or, you can even give the enemy all the wizard's powers, but only let them cast a maximum of what he should have, deciding when he uses them which one's best for the situation. It's not like the players are gonna look at your sheet.

You're trying to show the effectiveness of these other powers.

Mando Knight
2010-10-31, 01:24 AM
Apply the Wizard Template to a Brute (so it lasts more than a round and can therefore try out all it's tricks).

Not a Brute, a Soldier. The latter still have high HP, but more importantly, the defenses to make the HP count. A Brute sacrifices defense for bulk and damage, but a Soldier is the most well-rounded and best-defended monster type. While a Soldier can deflect a good number of shots and give the attacker enough pain to worry about, the average Brute will take every hit that's thrown at him while trying to smash the foe's head in with an oversized weapon.

Shatteredtower
2010-10-31, 11:07 AM
Let's say the fighter is facing a mob of minions and their succubus mistress. The fighter has been using only Cleave to try and chop down the minions two at a time, instead of using his other at-will (Reaping Strike)...Let's transfer this to our example:

Can you honestly tell me that it makes sense for a succubus, when controlling a dominated wizard, to believe that his only "basic magic" is that puny MM?

If you are thinking, rather than metagaming, then yes. An at-will power that is never used is not being considered, and won't be found in "surface" thoughts without some additional prompting.

"But what does your character think?" cuts both ways. If the power is never used, your character doesn't think of it, and the dominator your DM plays should not use it as your character's first attack.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 11:17 AM
I'm a big fan of the "That's nice, but what else you got?" line of thinking.

Tiki Snakes
2010-10-31, 11:40 AM
If you are thinking, rather than metagaming, then yes. An at-will power that is never used is not being considered, and won't be found in "surface" thoughts without some additional prompting.

"But what does your character think?" cuts both ways. If the power is never used, your character doesn't think of it, and the dominator your DM plays should not use it as your character's first attack.

I find your reasoning artificial and confining. It's a valid way to play a dominator, I will agree with that, but it is FAR from being the only valid way to work with, describe, fluff or rule such an ability.

The rules text is clear in the quote, the dominating creature gets to choose. No other limitations than how powerful a power they can choose. This, and nothing more.

I remember in Marvel Comics, infact, a particularly awesome storyline involving The White Queen posessing Bobby 'Iceman' Drake. She did things, powerful, innovative tricks that iceman just had never considered, never attempted, and generally rocked out a hundred times more than Bobby. In the aftermath, he was suitably humiliated feeling, having been one-upped by a creature who had spent mere hours with his powers at her disposal.
You could say, there's literary precedent for things working differently to your suggested and prefered way, Shatteredtower.

The Dominating creature I have used recently did most of it's stuff as a triggered action, when things attacked it, actually, and the effects resolved instantly, so worries about the effects not actually coming into play are not necessarily that well founded. Especially if we are taking custom creatures into account, but I'm confident that were I to look, I could find numerous accurate Dominators whose effects are guarenteed to fire off successfully several times an encounter.

Some thoughts - If you are setting things up so as to get your grubby mind-controlling mitts on the wizard, might I suggest a theme other than 'Doppleganger'?
Myconids. Mushroom People. Give one or two of them spores that target the wizard's fortitude, physically controlling him rather than trying to batter through his will. It has the benefit of being potentially quite fun from a body-horror angle, as you chuck in a whole load of Flood-style pseudo-zombie (minions). Bonus points if half of them start out as plucky allies accompanying the Party.

Kurald Galain
2010-10-31, 03:57 PM
Doppelganger makes an easy arcana check to realize that every single wizard has more than one at-will power; problem solved.