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j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 01:41 AM
I am trying to create a paladin multi-class to monk for my pathfinder game. It is based around using Flurry of blows in unison with smite evil. I have the basis down and everything works (at least I think it does) my only problem is that the AC is awful and I can't figure out how to raise it without tanking stats for a higher wisdom. Any help would be much appreciated.

(reordered thanks to Grarrg)
PF 20pb
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 18 (16 base +2 from human)
Cha 8
feats
human: Toughness
1: extra lay on hands
3: Serenity (house ruled for pathfinder)
Monk bonus: dodge

ac at level 3 = 16 [10+1(dodge)+1(dex)+4(wisdom)]

I was also thinking about taking the divine defender alternate class features from the advanced players guide but im not sure if the bonded armor can affect the clothing you are wearing, however it does not say you must do this so I could take bonded weapon and use lay on hands (can this affect yourself?) to bolster my ac.

WinWin
2010-10-28, 02:01 AM
I am unsure how the Pathfinder Paladin differs from 3.5, but I'll try and help.

You are going to have a limit on the number of smites and stunning fists available. Rationing them out may be a good idea. Unfortunately, the DC's for many monk powers are based of wisdom. The only way that I know how to alter them is via the Ascetic Mage feat from Complete Adventurer. Among other things, it allows Monk AC to be based off Charisma.

Your best option is to try and drop opponents before they can hurt you too much. Keeping them Stunned can help out here. Ascetic Knight allows Monk and Paladin levels to stack for smiting, among other things, but does not boost AC.

Depending on your DM, it may be worth looking into the Book of Exalted Deeds for the Sacred Vows (Vow of Poverty). If your DM is running a low wealth game, this feat can help out greatly. Attribute bonuses and defences that increase with level. That will help out with many things. The bonus exalted feats can increase unarmed damage considerable, as well as adding some features to your Smite.

If your DM is running a game with normal treasure drops...The ask if your character can do a quest for certain defence items (rings, periapt of wisdom to start). You may even be able to purchase the items you want from a temple or friendly wizard.

Keep in mind that as your character increases in levels your attacks are not going to benefit from a magical weapon. Finding a way to make your unarmed attacks get those magic bonuses may become essential.

Sorry for the amount of text. Good gaming.

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 02:07 AM
Thank you for your help it is much appreciated.

Hat-Trick
2010-10-28, 02:15 AM
There's a feat that switches Paladin abilities from CHA to WIS called Serenity, don't know source though.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 02:43 AM
Are you using only PF rules, or combining with 3.5 rules?

If it's PF rules, the only thing you can do is get some bracers of armor and some potions of shield (but 50GP per fight is quite steep.) Having -1 Dex and +1 Wis, I'm not sure you'll be able to pull it off effectively, as your base AC is 10. There's also the option of actually wearing armor, sure you'll lose the monk's speed bonus and unarmored AC, but you'll have an actual AC, and you'll keep your flurry of blows (I think, you might want to double check me on that,) and unarmed damage.

Edit:

There's a feat that switches Paladin abilities from CHA to WIS called Serenity, don't know source though.
Comes from dragon magazine, probably don't have access to that though.

Achernar
2010-10-28, 09:56 AM
Assuming that it is common knowledge that monks cannot wear armor, why do you have a DEX of 8? Am I missing an advanced optimization secret, because I thought only tin-canners can really get away with no DEX. An AC of 10 is disastrous, and you may not live to deliver your hail of glowy fists. Especially if the enemy has ranged capacity.:smalleek:

grarrrg
2010-10-28, 10:11 AM
I am unsure how the Pathfinder Paladin differs from 3.5, but I'll try and help.


PF Paladin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin)
Key differences:

Smite targets any 1 (evil) opponent, and the bonuses last until the target is dead or you rest. So smite+flurry is a valid option in PF

Whatever bonuses the Paladin got from WIS in 3.5 have been moved to key off of CHA in PF. So there is definately MAD consideration, as CHA is still the Monks only good dump stat.

"Turn Undead" is gone, replaced with "Channel Positive Energy", which the Paladin uses based on his Lay On Hands ability (which is also modified).

Long story short, he has MAJOR MAD going on, but Flurry+Smite=AWESOME

mangosta71
2010-10-28, 10:19 AM
Major weakness of the monk by RAW is the mad MAD. This isn't helped at all by your stat rolls - those are pretty horrendous. If it's a point buy (which on second thought is more likely, given that all the numbers are even), 24 is nowhere near enough to make a monk without some crazy racial stat modifiers. And, as has been noted, the monk's only good dump stat is the paladin's most important stat, so you're even more screwed than you would otherwise be.

You'd be better off going straight paladin and sticking to the heaviest armor you can find imo.

grarrrg
2010-10-28, 11:30 AM
point buy...24 is nowhere near enough to make a monk

It's a Pathfinder Point Buy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores), works out to 15-point-buy. It's not as bad as it sounds (as you calculated a 3.5 pb value would be 24), but it's still not that big.


You'd be better off going straight paladin and sticking to the heaviest armor you can find imo.

It depends how attached he is to the "Flurry-Smite" idea. In Pathfinder it "can" be awesome, but taking 2 of the most MAD classes and combining them...

I suppose a decent starting point is:
How much 3.5 material are you (j4bberw0ck) allowed to use? I assume you've already started playing, so Human and Paladin 2 are probably locked in choices.

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 12:46 PM
Assuming that it is common knowledge that monks cannot wear armor, why do you have a DEX of 8? Am I missing an advanced optimization secret, because I thought only tin-canners can really get away with no DEX. An AC of 10 is disastrous, and you may not live to deliver your hail of glowy fists. Especially if the enemy has ranged capacity.:smalleek:

I saw this, face palmed, and then reworked it

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 12:50 PM
It's a Pathfinder Point Buy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores), works out to 15-point-buy. It's not as bad as it sounds (as you calculated a 3.5 pb value would be 24), but it's still not that big.



It depends how attached he is to the "Flurry-Smite" idea. In Pathfinder it "can" be awesome, but taking 2 of the most MAD classes and combining them...

I suppose a decent starting point is:
How much 3.5 material are you (j4bberw0ck) allowed to use? I assume you've already started playing, so Human and Paladin 2 are probably locked in choices.

I realize this is a pretty difficult concept to even make slightly viable but I like to get creative, Ive been given 20 points in pathfinder and I am allowed to take serenity( makes paladin class features based of wis)

tyckspoon
2010-10-28, 01:26 PM
I realize this is a pretty difficult concept to even make slightly viable but I like to get creative, Ive been given 20 points in pathfinder and I am allowed to take serenity( makes paladin class features based of wis)

It's.. better, but.. man, you're a melee fighter with 8 Con and your AC is still going to be bad against anything that isn't your (one target 1/day) Smite target. You're going to die sooo much- you really just don't have the points to effectively do what you're trying to do (I'd take 2 off Strength and switch them into Con- it'd put both at 14. Which is not ideal, but like I said, not enough points.)

Also Serenity requires already having Divine Grace, which means your first chance to take it will be at level 3. And Monk 1 doesn't actually have the Ki Pool feature and consequently no means to spend it, so Extra Ki can't work at that level anyway..

mangosta71
2010-10-28, 01:35 PM
I am allowed to take serenity( makes paladin class features based of wis)
All right. This makes cha your best dump stat - why is it still 12? Switch it with your con, and you can still afford to take a point or two off your str to boost your con or dex further.

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 03:03 PM
All right. This makes cha your best dump stat - why is it still 12? Switch it with your con, and you can still afford to take a point or two off your str to boost your con or dex further.

I need an 11 minimum (I'm pretty sure) for spellcasting and I figured that the spells I get would be very beneficial. Is it more advantageous to drop that altogether?

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 03:05 PM
It's.. better, but.. man, you're a melee fighter with 8 Con and your AC is still going to be bad against anything that isn't your (one target 1/day) Smite target. You're going to die sooo much- you really just don't have the points to effectively do what you're trying to do (I'd take 2 off Strength and switch them into Con- it'd put both at 14. Which is not ideal, but like I said, not enough points.)

Also Serenity requires already having Divine Grace, which means your first chance to take it will be at level 3. And Monk 1 doesn't actually have the Ki Pool feature and consequently no means to spend it, so Extra Ki can't work at that level anyway..

Thank you I had misread some things, i will take this into consideration. And who dosent like dying?

mangosta71
2010-10-28, 03:17 PM
Ah, didn't realize that paladin spellcasting in PF ran off charisma. Would your DM allow Serenity to switch your casting to wisdom along with your other abilities?

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-28, 03:41 PM
Ah, didn't realize that paladin spellcasting in PF ran off charisma. Would your DM allow Serenity to switch your casting to wisdom along with your other abilities?

I am sure he would so if that is the case I can tank charisma and bump up con, I might as well become a dwarf.

Human Paragon 3
2010-10-28, 07:19 PM
Whenever the subject of mixing paladin and monk come up, I link to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112552&highlight=juris&page=2), which has a good build for strait monk/paladin that optimizes stunning fist and smiting. Can you say DC 38 fortitude saves? There's something to be said for making a Balor go down like Bald Bull.

Specifically I'm talking about Epinephrine's build and my subsequent reply. There's a lot of BS in that thread too, including the obligatory monk bashing and a weird tangent about the body mass index of a female paladin.

grarrrg
2010-10-28, 09:57 PM
He is currently level 2 paladin and his 3rd level will be monk. Final levels will be paladin14/monk6

Might I instead recommend Pal16/Monk4?
You lose: High Jump (meh), Purity of Body (already have same from Pal3), Bonus Feat (biggest loss), an extra 10 Slow Fall (meh), 4 skill points (you already have pathetic skill points), 1 point of Ki (it'll be low regardless), and +10 Movement (meh)
You gain 2hp (die size), 1bab (good), a Mercy (meh), more/better Smite Evil (good), a couple spells per day (nice, assuming DM let's WIS spellcast), and more/better Lay on Hands (nice).

Saves stay the same.
Basically, you trade a Bonus Feat and a few Skill points, and gain more Bab, better Smite, better spells, better Lay on Hands.


(reordered)
PF 20pb
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 18 (16 base +2 from human)
Cha 8
feats
human: Toughness
1: extra lay on hands
3: Serenity (house ruled for pathfinder)
Monk bonus: dodge

If you stay with Human, I suggest
Str 16
Dex 13 (boost at level 4)
Con 14 (can swap with Dex if AC is more important at low levels)
Int 7 (it's arguable that the Human Bonus Skill Point is AFTER minimum 1, so you'd still have 2sp with Paladin levels)
Wis 18 (16 base, +2 from Human, can also apply +2 bonus to Str instead)
Cha 7 (DUMP STAT! all Pal abilities are Wis)

Race:
After perusing the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races), the ONLY good/decent choice is Human. The two runners up were Dwarf and Half-Ogre.
Unless you think you can stand getting 1 skill point a level, then stay Human. Between loosing the Bonus Feat, and boosting your Int up to 10 (after Racials), the Stat Loses and Gains tend to cancel out, rather then benefit you.

If 1 skill point a level sounds right up your alley, then read on.
Dwarf, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, gives Darkvision and a bunch of minor bonuses, only has 20ft. base movement.
The Stat boosts are almost perfect, Darkvision is ham-dandy, and the movement is somewhat offset by a Monk boost.
Half-Ogre, +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis
Stat boosts are great, the -Wis hurts though.

j4bberw0ck
2010-10-29, 02:27 PM
The only problem with tanking stats to far is we utilize role playing heavily and with a 7int and 7 charisma i would be considered almost mentally disabled and socially inept by my gm which then leads to my character sitting in the background unless something to punch appears in which case he punches it and the becomes a silent idiot again.

grarrrg
2010-10-29, 03:18 PM
The only problem with tanking stats to far is we utilize role playing heavily and with a 7int and 7 charisma i would be considered almost mentally disabled and socially inept by my gm...

...
I know not everyone is all the up on Statistics, Bell Curves and Standard Deviations and such, but at the risk of a long winded explaination:

Dnd assumes that humans fall between 3 and 18 in all abilities (humans are the base-line for these figures) an AVERAGE human has scores of 10 or 11. This does NOT mean that the guy you meet on the street has 10's straight down the line. It also does NOT mean that a score of 7 is retarded, or a 14 is a super-genius.
Stat Distribution Bell Curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve3d6.png
Thank You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7374863&highlight=chances+charts%3A+bell#post7374863) Fax Celestis
According to the die roll probabilites, a person has about a 7% chance of rolling a "7", assuming for the moment that "Dice roll probability" equals "actual distribution" then 1 in every 14 people has a score of 7 Int.
I highly doubt that 1 in 14 people are borderline retarded. Heck, depending on who you talk to, a score of 3 is not necessarily retarded. They won't be winning the Science Fair anytime soon though...
Same goes for 7 Cha, they are not "socially inept", they are normal, below average yes, but normal, not winning many beauty contests, but NORMAL.

If you show/argue this with your DM and he still doesn't agree (for some reason), then point out that you still have a Wis of 16+, and, if nothing else, that should allow you to function normally.

Mongoose87
2010-10-29, 04:41 PM
...
I know not everyone is all the up on Statistics, Bell Curves and Standard Deviations and such, but at the risk of a long winded explaination:

Dnd assumes that humans fall between 3 and 18 in all abilities (humans are the base-line for these figures) an AVERAGE human has scores of 10 or 11. This does NOT mean that the guy you meet on the street has 10's straight down the line. It also does NOT mean that a score of 7 is retarded, or a 14 is a super-genius.
Stat Distribution Bell Curve
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/bellCurve3d6.png
Thank You (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7374863&highlight=chances+charts%3A+bell#post7374863) Fax Celestis
According to the die roll probabilites, a person has about a 7% chance of rolling a "7", assuming for the moment that "Dice roll probability" equals "actual distribution" then 1 in every 14 people has a score of 7 Int.
I highly doubt that 1 in 14 people are borderline retarded. Heck, depending on who you talk to, a score of 3 is not necessarily retarded. They won't be winning the Science Fair anytime soon though...
Same goes for 7 Cha, they are not "socially inept", they are normal, below average yes, but normal, not winning many beauty contests, but NORMAL.

If you show/argue this with your DM and he still doesn't agree (for some reason), then point out that you still have a Wis of 16+, and, if nothing else, that should allow you to function normally.

IMO, this stuff is 3.X's fault. Back in 2E and before, when you weren't penalized for being below average, it was much more socially acceptable.

olelia
2010-10-29, 05:46 PM
You might consider picking up the alternate paladin class feature that drops your spellcasting.


Warrior of the Holy Light
Some paladins use their gifts to focus on the holy light
that shines within their souls. With the gifts of purity
and redemption, these paladins spend much of their lives
helping others find the true path. Unleashing this power
takes patience and comes at a steep price. Warriors of the
holy light have the following class features.
Power of Faith (Su): At 4th level, a warrior of the holy
light learns to use the power of her faith to bolster her
defenses and aid her allies. This class feature replaces the
paladinís spells class feature. A warrior of the holy light
does not gain any spells or spellcasting abilities, does not
have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger or spell
completion magic items.
At 4th level, the warrior of the holy light gains one
additional use of her lay on hands ability per day. She gains
one additional use of lay on hands per day for every four
levels she attains beyond 4th. She can call upon the power
of her faith as a standard action. This causes a nimbus of
light to emanate from the warrior of the holy light in a
30-foot radius. All allies in this area (including the warrior
of the holy light) receive a +1 morale bonus to AC and on
attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear
as long as they remain in the area of light. This power lasts
for 1 minute.
At 8th level, the nimbus of light heals the paladin and
her allies, curing of them of 1d4 points of ability damage,
as per the spell lesser restoration. A creature can only be
healed in this way once per day.
At 12th level, the nimbus of light is treated as daylight
for the purposes of affecting creatures with sensitivity to
light. In addition, the nimbus grants allies in the area
resistance 10 to one type of energy, selected by the warrior
of the holy light when this power is activated.
At 16th level, the nimbus of light grants the warrior of
the holy light and her allies protection from critical hits.
There is a 25% chance that critical hits made against
the warrior of the holy light and her allies in the area
are instead treated as normal hits. This does not stack
with other abilities that grant similar protection (such
as light fortification).
At 20th level, the nimbus of light increases in size out to
a range of 60 feet. In addition, all of its bonuses increase.
The morale bonus to AC and on attack rolls, damage
rolls, and saving throws against fear increases to +2. The
amount of ability damage healed increases to 2d4. The
energy resistance increases to 20 against one energy type.
Finally, protection against critical hits increases to 50%.
Shining Light (Su): At 14th level, a warrior of the holy
light can unleash a 30-foot burst of pure, white light as
a standard action. Evil creatures within this burst take
1d6 points of damage for every two paladin levels and
are blinded for 1 round. Evil dragons, evil outsiders,
and evil undead are blinded for 1d4 rounds on a failed
save. A Ref lex save halves this damage and negates the
blindness. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the
warrior of the holy lightís level + the warrior of the holy
lightís Charisma modif ier. Good creatures within this
burst are healed 1d6 points of damage per two paladin
levels and receive a +2 sacred bonus on ability checks,
attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 round.
A warrior of the holy light can use this ability once per
day at 14th level plus one additional time per day at 17th
and 20th levels. This ability replaces aura of faith.

j4bberw0ck
2010-11-01, 12:50 PM
You might consider picking up the alternate paladin class feature that drops your spellcasting.


Warrior of the Holy Light
Some paladins use their gifts to focus on the holy light
that shines within their souls. With the gifts of purity
and redemption, these paladins spend much of their lives
helping others find the true path. Unleashing this power
takes patience and comes at a steep price. Warriors of the
holy light have the following class features.
Power of Faith (Su): At 4th level, a warrior of the holy
light learns to use the power of her faith to bolster her
defenses and aid her allies. This class feature replaces the
paladinís spells class feature. A warrior of the holy light
does not gain any spells or spellcasting abilities, does not
have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger or spell
completion magic items.
At 4th level, the warrior of the holy light gains one
additional use of her lay on hands ability per day. She gains
one additional use of lay on hands per day for every four
levels she attains beyond 4th. She can call upon the power
of her faith as a standard action. This causes a nimbus of
light to emanate from the warrior of the holy light in a
30-foot radius. All allies in this area (including the warrior
of the holy light) receive a +1 morale bonus to AC and on
attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear
as long as they remain in the area of light. This power lasts
for 1 minute.
At 8th level, the nimbus of light heals the paladin and
her allies, curing of them of 1d4 points of ability damage,
as per the spell lesser restoration. A creature can only be
healed in this way once per day.
At 12th level, the nimbus of light is treated as daylight
for the purposes of affecting creatures with sensitivity to
light. In addition, the nimbus grants allies in the area
resistance 10 to one type of energy, selected by the warrior
of the holy light when this power is activated.
At 16th level, the nimbus of light grants the warrior of
the holy light and her allies protection from critical hits.
There is a 25% chance that critical hits made against
the warrior of the holy light and her allies in the area
are instead treated as normal hits. This does not stack
with other abilities that grant similar protection (such
as light fortification).
At 20th level, the nimbus of light increases in size out to
a range of 60 feet. In addition, all of its bonuses increase.
The morale bonus to AC and on attack rolls, damage
rolls, and saving throws against fear increases to +2. The
amount of ability damage healed increases to 2d4. The
energy resistance increases to 20 against one energy type.
Finally, protection against critical hits increases to 50%.
Shining Light (Su): At 14th level, a warrior of the holy
light can unleash a 30-foot burst of pure, white light as
a standard action. Evil creatures within this burst take
1d6 points of damage for every two paladin levels and
are blinded for 1 round. Evil dragons, evil outsiders,
and evil undead are blinded for 1d4 rounds on a failed
save. A Ref lex save halves this damage and negates the
blindness. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the
warrior of the holy lightís level + the warrior of the holy
lightís Charisma modif ier. Good creatures within this
burst are healed 1d6 points of damage per two paladin
levels and receive a +2 sacred bonus on ability checks,
attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 round.
A warrior of the holy light can use this ability once per
day at 14th level plus one additional time per day at 17th
and 20th levels. This ability replaces aura of faith.


Thank you, I will probably do that

Person_Man
2010-11-01, 01:58 PM
While I'm not a fan of the combination for a bunch of reason, if you pursue it you may wish to consider:

Ordained Champion prestige class: Can burn Turn Undead uses to gain additional Smite attempts. Complete Champion.

Mighty Smiting: +1 magical melee weapon enhancement that gives you a +2 bonus to hit and damage when you Smite, and one extra use of Smite per day. In a high level campaign, there's no reason you couldn't have a bunch of these, and swap them out with Quickdraw as needed to Smite every round. Magic Item Compendium.

Awesome Smite feat: Whenever you Smite and use Power Attack, you can ignore a certain amount of DR, or knock your enemy Prone, or ignore any miss chance your target might have - although as a tactical feat, you can only do one of these each time you Smite. Not limited to Smite Evil. Comp Champion.

Killoren race: Once per hour (up to your Cha bonus times per day) you can Smite any aberration, construct, humanoid, ooze, outsider, or undead. You also have the Fey type, which opens up some Alter Self shenanigans. If you intend to be a Cha based build (as opposed to a Wis based Serenity build) then you might as well get as much mileage out of it as possible. Races of the Wild. Races of the Wild.

Killoren Destroyer feat: When manifesting your Killoren Smite, any foe struck by your attack must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. Races of the Wild.

Smiting Power: When you use a Smite during a Bull Rush or Overrun, you gain the To-Hit bonus as a bonus to the Str check, and if you win the opposed check you deal damage to the target equal to the bonus the Smite would grant on a damage roll. If you drop Killoren and go with Goliath, Half-Giant, or any other Large race, you can pick up the Knockback feat, which gives you a free Bull Rush attempt whenever you successfully make a melee attack. Champions of Valor.

Anything that multiplies damage: Lance, Spirited Charge, Rhino Rush, Battle Jump, Headlong Rush, high crit weapons, whatever.

Grey Guard PrC: This 10 level PrC gives up 5 levels of caster progression, and all of your Special Mount progression, but it has 2 interesting powers. First, it allows you to use your Lay on Hands pool (potentially quite big) to deal damage with a touch attack, and Evil creatures get no Save. Second, the Grey Guard gets the ability to use its Smite Evil on any creature, regardless of its alignment. And of course Grey Guard levels stack with Paladin levels to determine your Lay Hands pool and Smite uses and damage. Complete Scoundrel.

Fist of Raziel PrC: Gives 5 Smite Evil attempts over 9 levels. Smites gain somewhat more power as well, and it progresses casting. Book of Exalted Deeds.

Tattooed Monk PrC: The Lion Tattoo gives you a Smite that works on anyone, that you can use # of tattoos per day (5 if you take 9 levels of the PrC). The Bellflower tattoo let's you add you Cha bonus as an enhancement bonus to any ability score (including Cha!) for 1 round per PrC level, # of tattoo times per day. The Chameleon Tattoo let's you use Alter Self # of tattoo times per day, and it lasts 1 hour per class level. The Phoenix Tattoo gives you SR 15+class level (so 24 or 25 at ECL 15ish). Complete Warrior.

From Smite to Song: Adds Perform to your class list, and allows you to burn Smite Evil attempts to Inspire Courage. While this may seem like a very minor thing, Inspire Courage can be ridiculously optimized. Champions of Valor pg 29.

Binder: Andras vestige lets you Smite Good or Evil once every 5 rounds. It uses the old 3.5 mechanic. But if you can convince the DM to update it to the Pathfinder Paladin mechanic, it would definitely be useful. Tome of Magic.

X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). Always a handy thread, if you want to be pure Wis or Cha dependent.

grarrrg
2010-11-01, 05:53 PM
Just pointing out to everyone again, this is for a Pathfinder game, so...
Turn Undead is changed to "Channel Energy", not quite the same, but close.
Smite is more of a "buff vs. single target" then a one shot boost (again, 3.5 smite boosters will pretty much NEED DM ruling)

And as far as Multi-Class dips are concerned, if they can easily function with low Int and Cha, and aren't a big dip (need Pal levels for good Smite Damage boost), then suggest them, otherwise, forget it, this build is already stretched pretty thin.


I also party take back my prior suggestion. You originally said Pal 14/Monk 6
I first though Pal 16/Monk4 would be best (and it still might be)
But Pal 12/Monk 8 deserves consideration, if for no other reason then Monk 8 is when the second bonus attack from Flurry comes in.
(vs. Pal 14) Pal 12 drops you down one Smite use, and you lose Aura of Faith (possibly great, probably meh), Monk 7 and 8 get you a die size better unarmed damage, AC+1 (total +2), you'd actually gain a point of Ref save, a couple more skill points, lose a couple hp. Would wind up with a +18bab.
So definately Pal 12/Monk 4, but those other four levels are a toss up (go all Pal or all Monk, or just disregard completely and find a good PrC)

Mongoose87
2010-11-01, 06:40 PM
Since it is Pathfinder, if you're able to use any PrC that grants more Smites, you're getting significantly more benefit than normal from it.

grarrrg
2010-11-01, 09:05 PM
Since it is Pathfinder, if you're able to use any PrC that grants more Smites, you're getting significantly more benefit than normal from it.

Granting more Smites shouldn't be a problem, it's Enhancing Smites that are the issue.



Mighty Smiting: +1 magical melee weapon enhancement that gives you a +2 bonus to hit and damage when you Smite...

Awesome Smite feat: Whenever you Smite and use Power Attack, you can ignore a certain amount of DR, or knock your enemy Prone, or ignore any miss chance your target might have...

Smiting Power: When you use a Smite during a Bull Rush or Overrun, you gain the To-Hit bonus as a bonus to the Str check, and if you win the...

The above get SIGNIFICANTLY better with Pathfinder-brand Smite. Hence why he may have trouble getting them approved.