Whip Master Feat [3.5] Peach

[Ravens_Wing]

The Whip? For most its no better than a piece of rope, for some its a useful too, but I have seen those for whom the whip becomes so much more. IT becomes an extension of them or evens seems to take on a life of its own.
- Marix Hillguard, Adventurer

Feat: Whip Master
Prerequisites:Dex: 15, Base attack bonus +4, Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip), Weapons Finesse
Benefit:You threaten the area that you can reach with your whip. You may only make one such Attack of Opportunity per round even if you are normally able to make more, such as with combat reflexes. Note: using this feat to make a ranged attack of opportunity does not use up all of your attacks should you get more than one per round

Well what do you all think? Good? Bad? Broken? Its about freaking Time? lol

[Cieyrin]

Seems alright, though I see this coming up as a martial Bard feat or for somebody going for Lasher, so perhaps dropping the BAB requirement to +4 would be good. Yeah, Fighters could pick it up at 4th but I don't see that as overpowering, either.

[Mulletmanalive]

It's not overpowered, given that the whip is basically an annoyance at best.

I've never been clear why they made the damn thing suck so bad when they made the spiked chain [basically just a metal whip in Chinese style] into possibly the best weapon in the game...

[Ravens_Wing]

@Cieyrin Ok yeah changing it to +4 BAB does sound good as it was intended as a feat for a bard that i am building. I had put it at +6 because i didnt want fighters taking too much advantage of this early on but now that i think about it there is so much more that fighters can do with say a spiked chain at that level...

Which brings me to
@ Mulletmanalive I also never understood the giant difference in power between the whip and spiked chain and from that frustration is one of the reasons that i made this feat. I am also glad you dont think it is overpowered as that is one thing that I was trying to really accomplish was to not make a game breaking feat.

[Merk]

A whip user still needs a way to damage armored targets. Maybe work that into this feat?

[Cieyrin]

A whip user still needs a way to damage armored targets. Maybe work that into this feat?

Whips are more disarm/trip assistants than damage dealers, so I'd say that's more of a moot point. Plus, WotC kept remaking the wheel in having magical ways to allow whips to deal damage to armored targets, it's not even funny.

[Ravens_Wing]

Yeah the point of this feat is not to make it so that whips can do more damage, or so it can damage armored opponents. As there are Magics that can do or at the very least there is the whip dagger. The purpose was to deal with the fact that the whip is kind of a messed up weapon as it is treated as a melee weapon, a reach weapon, and a ranged weapon all at the same time.

It is a reach weapon that has a range of 15 feet, but it doesnt provoke attacks of opportunity like a normal reach weapon does. It is a Melee weapon as it can attack foes who are right beside you where as normal reach weapons dont and again no Attacks of Opportunity. It is like a ranged Weapon in the fact that if you use it while in a threatened space you are subject to your enemies attacks of opportunity. It is just a lot to get ones head around.

There is no existing feat that allows a whip to be used in a practical manner. So I made this feat to try and fill that void with out making it game breaking.

Cool. What does everyone else think?

[bartman]

seems like an interesting idea, and I think it is not broken in the least. I never actually use the whip, so I cannot comment much, but it seems fairly balanced to me

[Warclam]

Why did you decide to make it not compatible with Combat Reflexes? You've got some pretty heavy prerequisites, and they still provoke for attacking with a whip. It seems to me that if they happen to have Combat Reflexes too, they should be able to use it.

[kryan]

Needs to be better, and just rolled into Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip). So long as the Whip cannot damage armored opponents, it already has plenty of drawbacks. Making it require two feats to be almost usable is just bad.

And yeah, not being allowed to use Combat Reflexes is a bad idea. 3 feats is almost half of what the average character receives.

[Cidolfas]

Since a whip is already an exotic weapon, I think it may be better to simple allow the character to do this just by virtue of having EWP with the whip. When you have to invest a feat in something, it has to do something actually worth that feat (like the Spiked Chain and exotic weapon proficiency). So making the whip as a one-handed spiked chain (or a kusari-gama) seems a perfectly legitimate thing to give right off the bat to me.

[Ravens_Wing]

Hmm Ok I am seeing some concern over the Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip) requirement. I put that in there so that it was under stood that you had to be proficient with a whip to get the benefits from the feat.

Am I wrong in my assumption that someone who gets proficiency with a whip as part of their class, like a bard does, is treated as though they have the feat Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip).

This may be where some of the confusion is coming from.

My intent in putting that there was so that someone who was not proficient with a whip would not be able to take this feat without first becoming Proficient with it. A Bard would not need to take that extra feat as they already know haw to use a whip.

Am I mistaken here? Is a Bard not treated as though they have Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip).

As for the not making it usable with combat reflexes that was an attempt to help limit the potential brokenness of being able to take multiple AoO at that kind of range.

[Cieyrin]

Hmm Ok I am seeing some concern over the Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip) requirement. I put that in there so that it was under stood that you had to be proficient with a whip to get the benefits from the feat.

Am I wrong in my assumption that someone who gets proficiency with a whip as part of their class, like a bard does, is treated as though they have the feat Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip).

This may be where some of the confusion is coming from.

My intent in putting that there was so that someone who was not proficient with a whip would not be able to take this feat without first becoming Proficient with it. A Bard would not need to take that extra feat as they already know haw to use a whip.

Am I mistaken here? Is a Bard not treated as though they have Exotic Weapons Proficiency (Whip).

As for the not making it usable with combat reflexes that was an attempt to help limit the potential brokenness of being able to take multiple AoO at that kind of range.

Bards are proficient with whips, just like Rogues are proficient with hand crossbows. They don't need to meet the BAB +1 requirement of EWP to use it, since they get it as part of the class package.

[kryan]

AoOs with which you cannot do damage.

You misunderstand what's going on - I'm not objecting to the EWP (Whip) requirement.

I'm objecting to the stats for Whips in the first place.

Whips, in real life, do nonlethal damage and can't hurt anyone in armor. Those are relatively accurate. They're exceedingly painful but are never actually going to inflict real injuries.

What they are good at is having very long reach, and being constantly moving and unpredictable.

Basically, whips IRL are good at AoOs at range. That's about all they do well.

Meanwhile, the limitations on whips make them absolutely useless. They're not worth using even if you get free proficiency; taking a feat in them is just insulting.

The limitation on whips saying that they provoke AoOs and do not threaten, in other words, never should have existed, both for verisimilitude and balance's sake.

Thus, I object to your adding yet another feat that still doesn't make a whip usable. Two feats to manage to use a crap weapon is just a trap, plain and simple.

[Ravens_Wing]

No i get what you are saying kryan and believe me, I also feel that the whip is woefully underpowered in a system where the spiked chain is arguably one of the best weapons in the game. My purpose here though is not to reinvent the square wheel as the case may be. There are many ways already out there to power up a whip. What I am attempting to do is provide some practical combat use to an item that basically had none to begin with.

Currently without this feat the whip, as we all know, can hit targets up to 15' away which is fairly accurate if comparing to IRL. Also If a whip is used while in a threatened square it provokes an AoO, this also is fairly accurate to real life, in my opinion. The part that I think is inaccurate and hence the feat is the fact that you cant make AoO because you dont threaten the area around you with.

For the weapon to be practical you need to be able to keep an enemy at range with out him able to get in close to you. Before we couldnt do that. Now you with this 1 feat you can use your AoO to either Trip your enemy preventing him from reaching you or disarm him so he cant do squat to you when he gets there.

Now yes I could have allowed it to work with combat reflexes for the Multiple AoO but as I stated I originally didnt because of fears of breaking the game. This is something that I may change, but I dont know yet.

[kryan]

If they've spent 2 feats on it and all they can do is trip from 15' away, they're underpowered, even if they can do it multiple times. Remember that you can't trip someone who provokes by getting up (according to FAQ; this is not true RAW but may be reasonable if lockdown becomes too big an issue; on the other hand, hey, it's giving melee nice things, which is always good), and that you cannot provoke multiple times for the same action - including a single move. If someone provokes for moving from 15' to 10', you make a trip attempt, and fail, you don't get to try again when they move from 10' to 5' (unless they do it as two separate move actions, which would be really dumb).

[Ravens_Wing]

Posted by: kryan

you cannot provoke multiple times for the same action - including a single move. If someone provokes for moving from 15' to 10', you make a trip attempt, and fail, you don't get to try again when they move from 10' to 5' (unless they do it as two separate move actions, which would be really dumb).

Ok I didnt know about that. I thought that you provoked that AoO every time you left a threatened square, even if it was during the same action. And I will admit that I was partially concerned with the potential for locking a character down every time they try to stand up.

I also get that the whip is underpowered I am just trying to make it so that if some one wants to try and use a whip proactively there is material to help make that possible. AS for the fact that using the whip still provokes AoO that could possibly be another feat or worked into a class or something...

[kryan]

Ok I didnt know about that. I thought that you provoked that AoO every time you left a threatened square, even if it was during the same action. And I will admit that I was partially concerned with the potential for locking a character down every time they try to stand up.
Yeah, that first rule (no multi-provoking for movement) is really important. The latter (can't trip someone getting up)... is not really a rule, it's from the FAQ rather than RAW, and the FAQ is... kind of hit or miss. I suggest considering that rule and your own games, and deciding for yourself what is best for your game - depending on the power level of your game, it may or may not be appropriate. Doesn't really matter much as far as the Whip is concerned (you could just as easily use Spiked Chain or Guisarme for nearly the same effect, plus you'd get to hurt things, too), but it's worth knowing/thinking about.


I also get that the whip is underpowered I am just trying to make it so that if some one wants to try and use a whip proactively there is material to help make that possible. AS for the fact that using the whip still provokes AoO that could possibly be another feat or worked into a class or something...
See, this is the problem: feats are worth too much for this. You're now talking about three feats. Every time someone takes one of these feats, he is weakening himself, because these are exceedingly weak feats. If all 3 feats were 1 feat, it would be OK-ish. Making it three separate feats means someone is paying 3 feats for something that is "worth" about 1, so they're wasting feats like crazy. If anything, by tempting your players into doing this, you're doing them a disservice - it's just a huge trap.

I totally agree with improving the Whip. That's a good thing to do. But you're doing it the wrong way, IMO. The answer is not to add more feats - they're already wasting feats on this. The answer is to improve the Whip itself to the point where EWP (Whip) is actually worthwhile. And the way to do that, IMO, is to allow it to threaten and remove the way you provoke while using it. Then the Whip is a decent choice for a feat. Otherwise... why bother?

[Ravens_Wing]

Posted By: kyran
Making it three separate feats means someone is paying 3 feats for something that is "worth" about 1, so they're wasting feats like crazy.

your saying 3 feats... i only see 1 maybe 2 if you include the EWP, but as i said before this is more focused towards bards who already have that...

But yeah I get what your saying. In my opinion most exotic weapons are traps from a power standpoint. They are great for fluffing out a character but from a strictly rules perspective I have to agree with Admiral Ackbar...

ITS A TRAP! :smalltongue:

[kryan]

AS for the fact that using the whip still provokes AoO that could possibly be another feat or worked into a class or something...
This is the third feat I was talking about, and you have to count EWP. By investing three feats, which is nearly half of your total feats on an average character, you're getting a weapon which cannot take more than one AoO and cannot damage armored targets. That's my objection.

[Ravens_Wing]

Your Right if I made it so that to stop provoking AoO while using a whip a feat It would be too much. And after looking around I feel that something like that should be worked into a class rather than a feat.

[Cieyrin]

Your Right if I made it so that to stop provoking AoO while using a whip a feat It would be too much. And after looking around I feel that something like that should be worked into a class rather than a feat.

Update Lasher?

[Ravens_Wing]

Update Lasher?

I would love to update the Lasher but I dont know what book it is in or even if I have a copy of said book to work from.

If you have any info as to where i can find that class I would be most greatful.

[Cieyrin]

I would love to update the Lasher but I dont know what book it is in or even if I have a copy of said book to work from.

If you have any info as to where i can find that class I would be most greatful.

Lasher is in Sword & Fist, the first 3.0 splatbook.

[Ravens_Wing]

Sweet and I even have a copy Mwahahahahaha! Lets see what we can do with this.