PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Trapfinding Dagger-Thrower



Traja
2010-10-31, 04:29 AM
Hi!
While collecting ideas for my next character, i thougt that a dagger thrower might be fun.. so I read through the books, searched the internet, found some more inspiration.
My problem is that there are some restrictions:
My DM says 'You need Trapfinding! And no flaws!'
And some things I restrict myself: 'Not more than 2 BaseClasses + 2 PRCs...'

We start at level 10.
First I thought about something similar to 'Flick, the Flaming Dagger Flinger' (Bard3/Warblade5/Master Thrower5/Warblade7).. but trapfinding is missing.
A dip in Factotum/Rouge/.. would bringt trapfinding, but that would mean 'taking a third baseclass' and no class with trapfinding stacks with Bard for determination the Inspire Courage-Ability. (Except for a Kobold-Cleric with Kobold Domain.. but I'm not sure what my DM says to a Kobold PC:smalleek:)
In addition taking a dip for trapfinding nearly means taking Able learner.. and since flaws are not allowed, i don't have much feats ;)
My other idea was something like factotum/warblade/bloodstorm blade (master thrower with palm throw would still be nice) and take stormguard warrior (punishing stance would work with the 'melee'-throws of the bloodstorm blade, right?)
But my main problem is still the lack of feats...

Anyone here with an idea how to build a viable weapon-throwing trapfinder? :smallsmile:

AvatarZero
2010-10-31, 05:09 AM
Not sure why you wouldn't want to go with a Halfling Rogue. +3 combined race bonus to throwing (DEX, size and racial). Just take Quick Draw, Improved Initiative and all the TWF feats. If you can find a way to deal sneak attack damage after the first round without flanking, that'd be worth multiclassing for. Beyond that, do you really need to be as powerful as possible? Is everyone else doing the same thing? Is it that sort of campaign?

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:47 AM
Also isn't there a PrC for Halfling throwers? In RotW, perhaps?

EDIT: Also, Invisible Blade, FTW! :smallbiggrin:

JustIgnoreMe
2010-10-31, 06:00 AM
Also isn't there a PrC for Halfling throwers? In RotW, perhaps?

EDIT: Also, Invisible Blade, FTW! :smallbiggrin:

I think the Prestige Class you're thinking off is Rich's own Rock Skipping Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/CsORDNEyp2GRLIhacLj.html), an awesomeley entertaining class write-up. No idea how it works in actual play.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 06:14 AM
AHA! Found it. Whisperknife. That's the one.

Although, that rock-skipping champion one looks interesting.

JustIgnoreMe
2010-10-31, 06:22 AM
AHA! Found it. Whisperknife. That's the one.
Ooh, you're right, that does look awesome.

AvatarZero
2010-10-31, 10:21 AM
Whisperknife works. It has a class feature at level 9 that allows you to flank at range, very handy for being able to sneak attack in later rounds of combat.

A strongheart halfling Rogue can meet all the requirements at level 6. Or you could go vanilla Halfling Rogue5/Fighter1 without losing much more than a few skill points.

Ason
2010-10-31, 02:23 PM
Hi!
While collecting ideas for my next character, i thougt that a dagger thrower might be fun.. so I read through the books, searched the internet, found some more inspiration.
My problem is that there are some restrictions:
My DM says 'You need Trapfinding! And no flaws!'
And some things I restrict myself: 'Not more than 2 BaseClasses + 2 PRCs...'

We start at level 10.

Well, I planned out a build similar to this once, but it had 2 base classes 3 PrCs (you can probably cut one out without trouble) and used a Forgotten Realms race. Here's the build, so feel free to use what you want from it:

Race: Strongheart Halfling (swap save bonuses for extra feat, keep thrown weapon bonuses- the free feat really helped me)

1) Rogue: Weapon Focus (dagger) [Strongheart racial feat], Point Blank Shot [level 1 feat]
2) Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse [class feature]
3) Swashbuckler: Far Shot [level 3 feat]
4) Swashbuckler: Insightful Strike (makes daggers much better!!)
5) Rogue
6) Invisible Blade: Two Weapon Fighting [level 6 feat]
7) Invisible Blade
8) Invisible Blade
9) Invisible Blade: Precise Shot [level 9 feat],
10) Invisible Blade: (can now feint as free action- easy sneak attacks!!)
11) Master Thrower: Quick Draw [class feature]
12) Whisperknife: Craven [level 12 feat], Rapid Shot [class feature]
13) Whisperknife:
14) Whisperknife:
15) Whisperknife: Daring Outlaw [level 15 feat]
16) Whisperknife
17) Whisperknife
18) Whisperknife: free feat [level 18 feat]
19) Whisperknife
20) Whisperknife (can flank at range now too!!)

By level 20, your thrown daggers do: weapon damage + [9d6 + class level] sneak attack damage + int mod. Sneak attacks are easily gained via feinting (level 10) or ranged flanking (level 20). This is important because daggers on their own don't do much damage. You are a powerhouse of thrown weapons who is still a danger in melee combat, though you are reliant on sneak attacks for damage, so beware and prepare for constructs, oozes and undead. I like this build because it uses class features to meet feat requirements whenever possible, which gives you more room to specialize. You need to be careful about which skills you pick in order to qualify for the PrCs, but if my math was right way back when, it should be doable.

Books Used: Core, Complete Warrior, Races of the Wild, FRCS

If you're going to throw weapons, you can also maximize your ability to carry daggers. Here's a list of gear that might help:

Hollow Boot Heel (Complete Scoundrel): for hiding poisons, etc.
Masterwork Bandoleer (FRCS): holds 12 daggers [wear these like old-school ammo belts]
Knife Vest (Arms & Equipment Guide): holds 10 daggers
Boot Sheath (Arms & Equipment Guide): 1 hidden dagger per ankle
Wrist Sheath (Arms & Equipment Guide): 1 hidden dagger per wrist
Smuggler's Boots (Arms & Equipment Guide): 1 dagger in each boot lining

HAVE FUN!! :smallbiggrin:

Dralnu
2010-10-31, 02:58 PM
Ason's build is exactly what I'd recommend. Remember to take the halfling rogue sub in RotW. Since you're limited to 2 PrCs, just drop the Master Thrower. Take Quick Draw instead of Precise Shot and enter Whisperknife at level 11. You can put grab halfling rogue 3 for your 20th level to snag thief's luck and +1SA, which is a pretty good sub to the master thrower level. Or if you don't think the campaign will last that long, take the level after whisperknife 2, then resume the PrC.

Urpriest
2010-10-31, 04:01 PM
The factotum idea isn't bad, by the way, and I believe it could use Iajitsu Focus for bonus damage.

pffh
2010-10-31, 04:11 PM
I think there are also halfling rogue substitution levels that trades 1d6 melee sneak attack for and extra 1d6 ranged sneak attack when throwing (so it gets 9d6 melee sneak attack and 11d6 ranged sneak attack when throwing at 20).

It's in races of the wild page 159. It also gains sniping mastery (throw and hide again) and thiefs luck (reroll reflex save x times per day).

SurlySeraph
2010-10-31, 04:20 PM
If you're going to throw weapons, you can also maximize your ability to carry daggers. Here's a list of gear that might help:

There are also those gloves in the MiC that give you unlimited +1 javelins made out of force. You could use those, or ask your DM to adapt them to a dagger-based version.

You could use Throwing Returning weapons, but you'll need as many as you have attacks since they only come back at the end of the round, which could be problematic.

Or you could take a level in Bloodstorm Blade, though that doesn't mesh too well with sneak attack.

gorfnab
2010-11-01, 04:11 AM
I like 5 levels of Master Thrower with most of the dagger throwing builds I've designed. Being able to throw daggers as ranged touch attacks is really nice.

Two levels of Swordsage late in a build will net you Weapon Focus with Shadow Hand weapons (ie. daggers) which can meet prereqs for prestige classes as well as +2d6 sneak attack (Assassin's Stance). Also the Shadow Blade feat would give you a nice boost to your melee damage especially with more attacks gained from TWF.

A Ring of Blinking is another way to get all of your attacks to count as sneak attacks since the Blink spell says "You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC."

Here are some builds I came up with a while ago for a friend who was starting in a campaign and didn't fully know what books were and were not going to be available to her.

All of the builds below can throw 16 daggers per round at higher levels (BAB + TWF tree + Rapid Shot + Palm Throw) however the sneak attack damage does vary a bit from build to build.

Basic Halfling Dagger Thrower

Halfling
1. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW) - Point Blank Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger
8. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
9. Master Thrower - Far Shot
10. Whisperknife - B: Rapid Shot
11. Whisperknife
12. Whisperknife - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical Dagger, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Master Thrower weapon tricks - Palm Throw, Two With One Blow, Weak Spot


Strongheart Halfling Thrower

Strongheart Halfling
1. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Craven
4. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW) - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadow Blade
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade


Advanced Strongheart Halfling Thrower

Strongheart Halfling
1. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Halfling Rogue RSL (RotW) - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadow Blade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310) - B: Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - B: Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade


Other Items for you to consider:
Sniper's Goggles - Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide
Rogue's Vest - Magic Item Compendium
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis - Tome of Magic
Quiver of Anariel (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/mirrorstone/Article.aspx?doc=fr_lonedrowstats) (The original posting of this article was taken down by WotC but thankfully this site has it posted) - see if your DM will allow you to change "quiver" to "bandoleer" and "arrow(s)" to "dagger(s)".

Edit: Sadly, with the restrictions from you DM you may not be able to use most of these builds but at least they may give you some more ideas. Otherwise another build idea is Sneak Attack Fighter (UA) 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Feat Rogue (UA) 14 with the Daring Outlaw feat. This nets you BAB 16, 11d6 sneak attack, and 8 bonus fighter feats. Just take the TWF tree, Quick Draw, and Rapid Shot and you're pretty much set. Otherwise Ason's build might get you some more options.

Zieu
2010-11-01, 05:14 AM
Alternatively, if you have a Ranger in your party, tell them to pick up the feat "Distracting Shot", which treats any target they hit with a ranged attack Flanked until the next turn or someone attacks it.

That's an easy way for you to get flanking/sneak attack, but just a quick idea that may or may not be feasible depending on your party.

Androgeus
2010-11-01, 06:52 AM
Alternatively, if you have a Ranger in your party, tell them to pick up the feat "Distracting Shot", which treats any target they hit with a ranged attack Flanked until the next turn or someone attacks it.

That's an easy way for you to get flanking/sneak attack, but just a quick idea that may or may not be feasible depending on your party.

Isn't that an ACF trading out animal companion?

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 08:21 AM
Isn't that an ACF trading out animal companion?

Yes, that would be accurate.

jiriku
2010-11-01, 08:42 AM
And it's generally superior to a ranger's animal companion (with less bookkeeping), so it's a pretty solid trade for the ranger.

+1 for halfling rogue with racial sub level. Have you talked with your DM about how to maintain the rogue's effectiveness when fighting creatures immune to sneak attack? Rogue/thrower builds usually fall flat on their faces in that situation, because their reliance on throwing weapons rules out most weapon-based solutions, their heavy multiclassing rules out most rogue ACFs that would help, and their need to have both hands free rules out the use of wands.

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-01, 11:12 AM
Get a ghost strike returning dagger. It isn't a cheep solution, but it works.

Alternatly, play a swift hunter. Take undead, constructs, ect as your favored enemy. You can now skermish anything. Less damage than a sneak attack build, but harder to hit.

Rixx
2010-11-01, 12:48 PM
I find it kind of amazing that someone could read "Trapfinding Dagger-Thrower" and not just think "Rogue"!

I believe one of the 3.5 books had a throwing-based prestige class you could look into.

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-01, 12:59 PM
I was trying to think outside the box.

Nidogg
2010-11-01, 01:33 PM
Far shot is always a viable feat for throwers but have you considered a level or 2 in monk? cos throwers do pincushin people and an extra attack (flurry) is not to be sniffed at....

dsmiles
2010-11-01, 01:34 PM
I still think Whisperknife is a good choice (ranged flanking is not to be laughed at).

The Rabbler
2010-11-01, 01:35 PM
or, you could ask your DM to treat the gauntlets of infinite blades as a free-action activation; this would effectively give you infinite dagger ammunition.

Also, you might want to look at the factotum for it's iaijustu focus. a rogue 2/factotum 8/master thrower 5/invisible blade 5 with an item familiar and precise strike would deal 1d4 + 3d6 +(class level) +(Iaijutsu Focus check result) damage on a ranged sneak attack. With an item familiar, your Iaijutsu check could easily break +50 for a guaranteed +9d6 to damage. And all of your attacks would be touch attacks. I'd build this on either a strongheart halfling or a whisper gnome and grab a ring of blinking for easy hitting/sneak attacking. Also, you'd be able to sneak attack stuff that's usually immune with only a 1/2 damage penalty instead.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-01, 02:17 PM
Another build you might consider would be Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 7/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5. You don't necessarily need to take them in that order mind, but with Daring Outlaw you get +8d6 Sneak Attack, INT to damage, +2 Dodge Bonus (or, with a permissive DM, +3 AC from the strictly superior (for your purposes) Shield of Blades ACF (PHB II, pg. 63)), Feinting as a Free Action, Palm Throw, Weak Spot (for attacking their touch AC), and one other thrown weapon trick. The Feats you'd take are the Two Weapon Fighting tree, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), and Daring Outlaw.

Traja
2010-11-02, 05:11 AM
Thanks a lot for all your input. Haven't had much time since opening the threat.. my silence wasn't meant to be impolite ;)

I have a problem with the Invisible Blade. In the PHB feint says that it only works on your next melee attack. And the CW-Errata tells me, that the IB can feint just once per round.
Doesn't sound to overwhelming, or am i missing something?

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-02, 08:47 AM
With the Errata, it's not that great. If your DM allows it to be played as written, it's pretty sweet though.

Diarmuid
2010-11-02, 09:30 AM
There's a skill trick that allows your feint to apply to multiple targets so you could the attack a bunch of targets as a sneak attack.

gorfnab
2010-11-02, 01:37 PM
There's a skill trick that allows your feint to apply to multiple targets so you could the attack a bunch of targets as a sneak attack.
Group Fake Out. Timely Misdirection is also a nice trick to consider as well.

Also the feat Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark will keep any targets you successfully feint against flat footed for the turn if you damage them.

Urpriest
2010-11-02, 02:17 PM
Group Fake Out. Timely Misdirection is also a nice trick to consider as well.

Also the feat Surprising Riposte from Drow of the Underdark will keep any targets you successfully feint against flat footed for the turn if you damage them.

As far as I can see none of this allows Feinting at range, however. Unless Surprising Riposte does?

Diarmuid
2010-11-02, 02:56 PM
I see in the Bluff skill where is specifies feinting in melee combat, but under the Feint Combat action it makes no similar stipulation:



FEINT
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your targetís Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a Ė4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a Ė8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, itís impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Feinting as a Move Action: With the Improved Feint feat, you can attempt a feint as a move action instead of as a standard action.


Edit - I fail reading...melee specified....