A housecat can kill a commoner?

[LordShotGun]

Ugh, I am currently moving and I had to catch my cat and stuff her in a pet cage for transport and now I see why people say that housecats can kill people in DnD. My hand are all ripped up and I can say goodbye to one of my shirts and this was all through her being wrapped up in a towel.

I would hate to see an enraged housecat with enlarge or some other buff spell.

[Tinkee]

*Begins casting "Declaw" on housecat*!

[LordShotGun]

*Begins casting "Declaw" on housecat*!

Aww thats cruel...:smallmad:

[Marnath]

*Begins casting "Declaw" on housecat*!

How would you like it if someone surgically removed *your* fingernails? Eh? I didn't think so.

[Silverraptor]

*Intead casts invisible padded claws on cat that can be dispelled later*

[Tinkee]

Wouldnt be much fun, but animals tolerate pain differently than humans. Then he/she wouldnt be able to hurt you anymore! I love animals though, I wouldnt do it just for the cruelty of it :smalltongue: I figure its just like having your pet spayed/Neutered... Im sure they'd give 'em something for pain.

[druid91]

I like fighting with my dads cat. Keep it away from your face though.

[Bhu]

http://www.ehow.com/how_5848695_keep-cat-calm-carrier.html

this may help for next time

[Silverraptor]

http://www.ehow.com/how_5848695_keep-cat-calm-carrier.html

this may help for next time

I think this (http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewshortstory.asp?id=10278) can also help. Not!:smalltongue:

[BRC]

*Begins casting "Declaw" on housecat*!
I wouldn't do that. Such magic is likely to attract the attention of the dark lord Snuggles.

[Katana_Geldar]

Wouldnt be much fun, but animals tolerate pain differently than humans. Then he/she wouldnt be able to hurt you anymore! I love animals though, I wouldnt do it just for the cruelty of it :smalltongue: I figure its just like having your pet spayed/Neutered... Im sure they'd give 'em something for pain.

Its more like cutting off a cats toes, they use them for grip like running spikes when dashing about like mad things and to mark their territory. No wonder the cheetah is the fastest land animal.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

Yeah, declawing a cat actually involves amputating the toes at the first knuckle. Not plesant. There are much more humane ways of dealing with the problem.

[Katana_Geldar]

Hint: it involves a water pistol.

[RanWilde]

Or not keeping animals indoors.

[Katana_Geldar]

That can't always be done, you know.

[Tinkee]

Hmmm, shows what I know about cats.. didnt realize they actually amputated up to the first knuckle. In that case... *Casts counterspell on previously cast spell* *Summons fluffly plaything for kitty*

[RanWilde]

That can't always be done, you know.

Then why own an animal if you cannot give it a proper home? Forgive me, I sound like I am trolling.

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, what if you live in an apartment? Housecats should not really live outside all the time, as they've been bread to be live in houses. My cat visits outside, but if she was outside all the time or had never been inside she'd no doubt be killing her share of native birds.

Feral cats are a real problem here.

[Serpentine]

Cats should be kept inside. In fact, in Australia it's illegal to let a cat out at night.

[Giggling Ghast]

Cats should be kept inside. In fact, in Australia it's illegal to let a cat out at night.

Isn't that because Australia is full of giant spiders and various beasts who eat cats?

[RanWilde]

At my father's house, we keep all animals outside, except for our fish tank. Yes, even our "house cat". I don't see why you would keep anything bigger than a small fish bowl if you lived in an apartment, you can't give a cat or a dog enough exercise.

[Serpentine]

My cat is fully able to spend as much time during the day outside as he wants. He still spends half the day inside (my boyfriend's cat even more).
Cats really don't need outside all that much...
Isn't that because Australia is full of giant spiders and various beasts who eat cats?The opposite, mostly - they eat all the tiny little mammals and bird.

[RanWilde]

My cat is fully able to spend as much time during the day outside as he wants. He still spends half the day inside (my boyfriend's cat even more).
Cats really don't need outside all that much...The opposite, mostly - they eat all the tiny little mammals and bird.

Thats cool. A natural diet is good though, :smallbiggrin:

[Serpentine]

Not when something like 75% of the native fauna is endangered :smallannoyed:

[Katana_Geldar]

I don't see why you would keep anything bigger than a small fish bowl if you lived in an apartment, you can't give a cat or a dog enough exercise.

Cats usually don't need exercise, they sprint around the house enough to keep themselves trim. You seen a cat on a rampage? My cat won't even wear a collar, much less go for a walk.

And Serps, pleased to let you know that my cat used to kill rabbits. They need to be killed, the little buggers. And I managed to save a wallaby that my dog was trying to kill.

[Marnath]

Yeah, declawing a cat actually involves amputating the toes at the first knuckle. Not plesant. There are much more humane ways of dealing with the problem.

For me, it's not a problem. She's always been wild, but her brother died right off the bat when they were kittens, so she hasn't had anyone to play rough with. So I make it a game to poke her and try to touch her belly, while she tries her darnedest to slash me to ribbons before I can. We usually play that until she either draws blood or gets tired of missing me. I don't mind, since she can't seriously injure me, and the scars fade quick. :smallsmile:

[Crimmy]

Well, as a note:

Cats will only hurt you ¡f you're too slow and/or too afraid of grabbing it.
Seriously, my cat tries to bite my hand, and I clench it into a fist.
Then the cat cannot open it's mouth enough to bite me.

And when it tries to scratch, well, just grab him from the neck (keep your hand on it's back though) to immobilize, then grab the rest of the body with the other hand, and carry it.

You won't harm the cat, I assure you. I've been doing it for a long time.

Also, sorry about your hands, but it really is your own fault.

If you find it extremely difficult, some work gloves used by artisans and woodworkers can protect you if you seriously don't wanna grab the cat too viciously and want to escape it's biting and scratching.

[Killer Angel]

*Begins casting "Declaw" on housecat*!

Wouldn't be less drastic, if you limit to shorten the claws every once in a while?

[Thajocoth]

I once saw the sky darkening and heard thunder, so I went outside to bring the cat in before he got wet. I know how much cats hate water, especially this cat. He already didn't like being picked up while outside, but this time he finally let me.

Then... More thunder. Holding a scared animal with lots of claws = lots of blood. I got three main cuts. A very deep one in the palm of my hand. One not as deep just under the belly (right where a longer and much deeper cut would've been an evisceration), and a long shallow one in a wave shape down my whole leg.

I managed to get him inside.

Had I held the back of his neck, I think he may have been calmer. Maybe not.


Also... Cats walk on their claws. Removing them completely messes up their balance.

[Eldan]

Isn't that because Australia is full of giant spiders and various beasts who eat cats?

That's probably mostly because housecats tend to exterminate half the native bird species wherever they go. Even over here, where they have been for most likely thousands of years.

My godfather's cat was a pretty vicious beast. She especially loved sneaking up on people sitting somewhere and biting them in their hands. I've been bitten twice, both resulted in a visit to the local doctor, stitches and tetanus shots.

[Serpentine]

Grabbing a cat by the scruff of the neck (almost) always subdues a cat. Even if it still manages to break out of the weird trance thing it puts them into, they're much easier to control.

[Katana_Geldar]

Sometimes cats will grab you and not let go, best thing is to keep still and then withraw your hand slowly. And I wish my cat would let me help her when she gets caught on clothing.

[Rowsen]

Grabbing a cat by the scruff of the neck (almost) always subdues a cat. Even if it still manages to break out of the weird trance thing it puts them into, they're much easier to control.

Is that safe? It looks painful. But I've never owned a cat, so yeah.

[Lhurgyof]

Aww thats cruel...:smallmad:

I hate people that say that it's cruel. "Oh, your cat hates you and will never be happy.", etc.

You know, I was 2 when I got my cat, she was declawed when she was young, and she's still a very happy and loving cat, always has been.

[Serpentine]

Probably not a good idea to just dangle the cat from the scruff for too long, but no, not so far as I'm aware.

[LordShotGun]

I hate people that say that it's cruel. "Oh, your cat hates you and will never be happy.", etc.

You know, I was 2 when I got my cat, she was declawed when she was young, and she's still a very happy and loving cat, always has been.

Bolded for my point. You did it when she was young and she never knew the difference, but for cats that are indoor/outdoor they NEED those claws. And even if you cat is purely indoors just get them a scratching post and teach them to use it by dragging a string across the fabric of the post until they hit it with claws extended and they relize that "hey this feels pretty good". It may take a few trys but so far all of my cat were taught to use a post this way and it saves on repair bills.

[hamishspence]

I hate people that say that it's cruel.


"Oh, your cat hates you and will never be happy.", etc.

These are two completely separate things:

"It's cruel"

and

"The cat will never be happy as a result"

It's possible for one to be true but not the other.

[Teddy]

Is that safe? It looks painful. But I've never owned a cat, so yeah.

The cat mother carries around her kittens by biting them in the neck, so, yeah, it'd better be safe. Also, that's the reason to why cats stop resisting: kittens which didn't resist their mother had a better chance of survival than those who did.

[Serpentine]

Worth noting that if they're really determined or freaked out, they can still struggle. But they're not nearly as good at it.

I once had my Boy's cat cling to a doorframe koala-style when I was scruffing him to the bathroom for a soaking for being bad...

[Renegade Paladin]

How would you like it if someone surgically removed *your* fingernails? Eh? I didn't think so.
Not fingernails. The first digit of each finger.

[Lhurgyof]

Bolded for my point. You did it when she was young and she never knew the difference, but for cats that are indoor/outdoor they NEED those claws. And even if you cat is purely indoors just get them a scratching post and teach them to use it by dragging a string across the fabric of the post until they hit it with claws extended and they relize that "hey this feels pretty good". It may take a few trys but so far all of my cat were taught to use a post this way and it saves on repair bills.


These are two completely separate things:

"It's cruel"

and

"The cat will never be happy as a result"

It's possible for one to be true but not the other.

My cat was both an indoor and outdoor cat and she's never had trouble doing anything really, hunting, climbing trees, everything.
I just hate it when people find out my cat is declawed and then start saying "That's horrible, you're a horrible person, your cat is unhappy, and she'd be much better off if you hadn't declawed her." Yeah, because you can ****ing talk to my cat.

You know, I was 2 years old, it would've been irresponsible to have a cat that could maul me (of course she wouldn't, be we didn't know that).

[Serpentine]

You know, I was 2 years old, it would've been irresponsible to have a cat that could maul me (of course she wouldn't, be we didn't know that).My sister has a 1 year old and a large clawed cat. I believe she (the cat) swatted him once, but he was being a pain, his parents should've been paying attention, and she didn't do any harm.

[Lhurgyof]

My sister has a 1 year old and a large clawed cat. I believe she (the cat) swatted him once, but he was being a pain, his parents should've been paying attention, and she didn't do any harm.

My main issue is when people have the nerve to tell me that I'm not doing what's best for my cat. It's none of their business. You know what? My cat was going to die if we didn't adopt her. And above that, most cats of her species don't live long (past 5 or 6 years), but she's 13 years old and the vet is astonished how healthy she is.
She's so happy and cheerful, and I hate that some people have the nerve to say that I'm being a cruel and horrible person to my cat.

Edit: Not saying this goes for you guys, I just had someone seriously say that to me once.

[Serpentine]

Jus' sayin', you might wanna compare your statement to the ones you're railing against.

[Lhurgyof]

Jus' sayin', you might wanna compare your statement to the ones you're railing against.

It may seem a cruel practice, but I'm sure my little kitty doesn't mind. All of our cats are declawed, what with the children and all. I would do anything for my little Oliver, so it's very frustrating when someone insists that I'm a horrible person because she's declawed. :smallfrown:

[Serpentine]

I understand that, if I disagree with the practice of declawing, but in the same post you rile against people branding you a terrible person, you called my sister irresponsible. Jus' sayin'.

edit: Oh, and the two clawed cats I have in my house are not at risk of mauling my nephew when I babysit.

[Lhurgyof]

I understand that, if I disagree with the practice of declawing, but in the same post you rile against people branding you a terrible person, you called my sister irresponsible. Jus' sayin'.

edit: Oh, and the two clawed cats I have in my house are not at risk of mauling my nephew when I babysit.

I called your sister irresponsible? o.o

Edit: I see what you're referring to.

This cat was brought into our home from a shelter, we had no way of telling if she was a good or bad cat, and my parents didn't want to risk it, and they know that I wouldn't rest until I had that cat.

[Vorpalbob]

Grabbing a cat by the scruff of the neck can immobilize them pretty well, unless they're REALLY spooked. Just don't dangle a full-grown cat by the neck, as this will strangle them. It's fine with kittens, as that's how their mothers carry them, but once they're about a year old, they get too big.

Mind you, if I need to get a cat, I just grab it. Combine living for my entire life with cats in the house, playing guitar, cooking, and just generally being a klutz, my hands are virtually invulnerable. Multiple times have I had fully grown cats hanging off of my hand by their claws, and I just look at them and go, "What are you so angry about?" Seriously, the skin on my hands is like 80% scar tissue.

[Marnath]

For the uninitiated:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4390537608_c7c96f51db_z.jpg?zz=1

It looks awful, but I assure you it doesn't hurt them. They have a handle. :smallsmile:

[Asta Kask]

I don't think my cat would ever claw me in anger - he's too inhibited. Play - yes, but not so it bleeds. Fear - if I scared the crap out of him, yes. But anger? No.

[Kastanok]

"Nah, cats ate all the crocodiles!"

I have no idea what I'm mis-quoting.

And as for de-clawing... :smalleek: I had no idea it was actually removing the claws entirely! Thought it meant filing them down to blunt stubs. I mean... damn, regular humans can be sadistic when they're doing The Right Thing.

(EDIT: Wikipedia informs me the procedure is illegal in the UK and much of Europe as a matter of prevention of animal cruelty. Verrrry interesting.)

Hehe, yay for cat handles.

[Syka]

Declawing if you let your cat outdoors is (generally) a bad idea. With all generalizations, there will be exceptions (Lhurgyof), but cat's use their claws not only for climbing but also for defense. If something (like a stray or even another domestic cat) attacks them, they will only be able to run rather than fight back. Running only works if they are faster.


That said, if I ever have a cat it WILL be an indoor cat. My ex's cat was wonderful. She came to them at about 6 months old as a stray and I knew her at 13. She never left their yard. The kitten they got while we were dating, though, loved to try and escape the yard. Old Cat got to go outside whenever she felt like it; Kitten was housebound. Kitten was perfectly happy, too. She loved climbing...anything.

Where I'll likely be living, I do not trust any pet to be let out of doors without supervision (in a City). But, the biggest pet I plan on having is a hamster so...*shrug*

[Eldonauran]

I've never really had issues with grown cats scratching me. Every cat I have raised from a kitten has learned when and where to use their claws. The first year is the learning phase and little mistakes do happen but after that, the cats learn that claws are for outside and to be gentle while inside. Same goes for biting.

Of course, learning how to play with cats is also a big thing. Fast, jerking motions trigger the reflex to latch onto things and the proper way to stop play time is the slowly pull your hand away (if you use hands to play).

Also, I concur with the neck grabbing. If used properly as they grow, it becomes a very easy and effective way to stop agression in your cats. Neutering/spading is also something to think about unless you want to breed them.

[mangosta71]

There are differences between cats, too. One of mine is perfectly happy to let people pick her up and will snuggle in their arms. The other will do serious damage to anyone who attempts to pick her up. The first likes to play and will signal (by flopping onto the floor on her side) when she wants someone to rub her belly. She'll bat and nibble at your hand, and you may feel her claws, but she doesn't extend them or bite hard enough to break skin. The second will snarl and hiss if you try it (and if you don't take the hint, you will lose your hand). The first will allow me to help her when she gets snagged on something. I don't dare try with the other.

[Katana_Geldar]

Declawing if you let your cat outdoors is (generally) a bad idea. With all generalizations, there will be exceptions (Lhurgyof), but cat's use their claws not only for climbing but also for defense. If something (like a stray or even another domestic cat) attacks them, they will only be able to run rather than fight back. Running only works if they are faster.


And cats use their claws for balance and grip while running.

As for young kids and cats, keep the cat away until you can teach kids to "play nice" with kitty. Also don't let them hold kitty until they are big enough and they need to know kitty may not want to play all the time.

[Thajocoth]

(EDIT: Wikipedia informs me the procedure is illegal in the UK and much of Europe as a matter of prevention of animal cruelty. Verrrry interesting.)

That's good. It should be illegal everywhere. It really is a terrible thing to do to a cat. Clipping their claws is fine, really, but removing them entirely is very bad. They use their claws to walk on, to hunt and to defend themselves. Some cats don't hunt, sure. Some cats are indoor only and don't NEED to defend themselves, but they're a lot more secure knowing that they can if need be. Without their primary defense, they're a lot more likely to be like an animal with their will broken (the best I can do at explaining what I mean here), which is just not healthy for any living creature. They might seem happy. They'll certainly become very needy and dependent... But cats are generally independent. The trend of becoming needy and dependent just shows how unnatural it is to declaw them. On top of all that, it really screws up the way they walk and balance. They are going to have a harder time getting around.

[Asta Kask]

My cat has very sharp claws, and he's not very independent. He's certain I'm his mommy and I haven't told him he's adopted yet.

[OracleofWuffing]

My family picked up the cat we have as an abandoned one that had already been declawed. One thing that's always bugged me about it is that she'll never let anyone touch her paws under any circumstances- and I don't know if that's due to the declawing or her just being herself. I find cat paws cute, but she finds them more of a "look don't touch" thing.

That said, she's had no trouble drawing blood from biting, ouch.

[Crimmy]

@Lhurgyof:
Say what you will, you took the easy way. And also the unnatural way.

And anything that's unnatural tends to be wrong.
I mean, if you think "Hey, I wanna have a Crocodile pet!
Wait, those have massive and maybe even dangerous tails and fangs.
I know, let's remove those, so when I try to have it near me, it won't bite me or whip me with it's tail".

I know, Crocodiles are a bad example, but the idea still stands. You're doing something unnatural.

Also, that part in which you said "Yeah, because you can ****ing talk to my cat"...
I assume you're relative to Dr. Doolitle, or maybe you are Eliza Thornberry.:smalltongue:
I mean, how can you know it's happy?
Answer: You can't, but you assume it is because you live with it.
So first off, chill it, and second, the same argument you used can be used against you.

Now, people assume it's the cats fault that babies get mauled (or scratched, because cat claws can't make such a big damage. They never did hurt me that much) or people get scratched as well. Cats have sensitivity, and when you go and bother it, not in a human way ("Hey, I know people like to be hugged, so when I hug this cat I'm not bothering it, see?") but in it's mind, you're attacking, and it has to defend itself.

Babies tend to grab or latch on to things they can get their little hands on, and most of the time, it's cat paws or tails. So the one to blame here is

a) the baby (but it has no knowledge of what he is doing, so this is not true)
b) parents, for getting a pet that can harm your baby.

So, people:

1.- If you have a baby, make sure that you get a cat that's very VERY patient, or don't get one at all
2.- Declawing is a practice that's careful and all, but it's unnatural.
3.- You never know when a cat is happy or not, so don't use that as an argument to say you are good because you declawed your cat and it's happy.

4.- Grab the cat by the handle, and be smarter than it.

[Asta Kask]

I mean, how can you know it's happy?

You watch the behavior of the cat. It's fairly easy to see if a cat is content.

[Thajocoth]

My cat has very sharp claws, and he's not very independent. He's certain I'm his mommy and I haven't told him he's adopted yet.

It's a trend, not an absolute. I've had a needy cat with claws before as well.

[OracleofWuffing]

And anything that's unnatural tends to be wrong.
Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that declawing can be rough on the cat (though ultimately a matter up to the owner), but I think you're making a bit too sweeping of a statement there. I mean, besides the possibilities that the want to not have claws in one's house could be a natural inclination of humans, or that computers and the internet could be conceived as unnatural things and thus any discussion could be wrong, don't you think you're being a bit edgey to, say, people that do "unnatural" things for a living? Handling money? Installing home security systems? Repairing air conditioners?

Heck, from all the videos I've seen on YouTube, cats like chasing after red laser pointers. I don't think they'd encounter those in the wild.

[faceroll]

Or not keeping animals indoors.

If you like to be an irresponsible pet owner, I guess.

[Asta Kask]

And also the unnatural way.

And anything that's unnatural tends to be wrong.

This is incredible irresponsible. You may have noticed that there are no vets in nature, so basically any treatment for anything is unnatural. Spaying? Neutering? Giving them food rather than requiring that they hunt themselves?

You need to rethink, or reformulate, your stance.

[hamishspence]

@Lhurgyof:
Say what you will, you took the easy way. And also the unnatural way.

He was two years old at the time according to his post- which makes it his parents decision- he wasn't "taking the easy way".

Quite apart from the whole "unnatural tends to be wrong" issue- which is dubious.

[mucat]

I hate people that say that it's cruel. "Oh, your cat hates you and will never be happy.", etc.
You're conflating two completely different statements.

Yes, declawing a cat is cruel. That doesn't mean the cat will never be happy. You could do all kinds of cruel stuff to an animal, and it could end up being happy nonetheless. That doesn't excuse the cruelty.


I just hate it when people find out my cat is declawed and then start saying "That's horrible, you're a horrible person, your cat is unhappy, and she'd be much better off if you hadn't declawed her." Yeah, because you can ****ing talk to my cat.

You know, I was 2 years old, it would've been irresponsible to have a cat that could maul me (of course she wouldn't, be we didn't know that).
If you were two years old, then you had no real say in the decision; it's ridiculous to call you cruel because the cat is declawed. If you tell people that you agree with the decision to declaw the cat, on the other hand, then they've got a stronger reason to call your judgment into question.

Now, if they go so far as to say that you're "a cruel person", based on this one issue, then clearly they're engaging in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. The practice of declawing cats is cruel; the people who do so aren't necessarily bad people.

However, you haven't got a very strong position to stand on regarding unnecessary ad hominem arguments. You didn't open this issue by saying "I hate it when people accuse me of being cruel because my cat is declawed." You said "I hate people who say that (declawing) is cruel."

If you don't see an important difference between those two statements, then I'm not surprised that you believe people, whether online or in real life, keep attacking you without reason.

[Lhurgyof]

You're confating two completely different statements.

Yes, declawing a cat is cruel. That doesn't mean the cat will never be happy. You could do all kinds of cruel stuff to an animal, and it could end up being happy nonetheless. That doesn't excuse the cruelty.


If you were two years old, then you had no real say in the decision; it's ridiculous to call you cruel because the cat is declawed. If you tell people that you agree with the decision to declaw the cat, on the other hand, then they've got a stronger reason to call your judgment into question.

Now, if they go so far as to say that you're "a cruel person", based on this one issue, then clearly they're engaging in unnecessary ad hominem attacks. The practice of declawing cats is cruel; the people who do so aren't necessarily bad people.

However, you haven't got a very strong position to stand on regarding unnecessary ad hominem arguments. You didn't open this issue by saying "I hate it when people accuse me of being cruel because my cat is declawed." You said "I hate people who think (declawing) is cruel."

If you don't see an important difference between those two statements, then I'm not surprised that you believe people keep attacking you without reason.

Ah, well my argument is "I hate people who say that people who declaw their cats are cruel", how's that one?
The only person I've met who thinks declawing is inhumane has accused me of being a bad person and said my cat isn't happy. And it really really set me off. Like she knows the story of my cat, how happy it is, etc.

[mucat]

Ah, well my argument is "I hate people who say that people who declaw their cats are cruel", how's that one?

Considerably more rational than before, although I still think a reasonable person could deal with this issue without hating anyone.

I still suggest you learn more about declawing before you adopt any more cats...especially since the decision on how to treat the first cat wasn't really yours (being two years old and all), but the decision on the next one you adopt will be. The people who have their cats declawed are not necessarily cruel, but the practice is still a bad one.

[Crimmy]

You watch the behavior of the cat. It's fairly easy to see if a cat is content.
...
Does the cat smile, or something?


Woah woah woah woah woah woah woah.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that declawing can be rough on the cat (though ultimately a matter up to the owner), but I think you're making a bit too sweeping of a statement there. I mean, besides the possibilities that the want to not have claws in one's house could be a natural inclination of humans, or that computers and the internet could be conceived as unnatural things and thus any discussion could be wrong, don't you think you're being a bit edgey to, say, people that do "unnatural" things for a living? Handling money? Installing home security systems? Repairing air conditioners?

Heck, from all the videos I've seen on YouTube, cats like chasing after red laser pointers. I don't think they'd encounter those in the wild.

This is incredible irresponsible. You may have noticed that there are no vets in nature, so basically any treatment for anything is unnatural. Spaying? Neutering? Giving them food rather than requiring that they hunt themselves?

You need to rethink, or reformulate, your stance.

He was two years old at the time according to his post- which makes it his parents decision- he wasn't "taking the easy way".

Quite apart from the whole "unnatural tends to be wrong" issue- which is dubious.

You three missed one word:
"Tends"
As in, usually, not always, it can be.

If you take into account that poisoned rivers filled with chemical waste, and massive deforestation is unnatural and also wrong, my point is proven. It's not something that happens in EVERY river or EVERY wood, but it still happens, and it's still bad.
Having wild and exotic animals as pets is "unnatural" (mainly because of the WILD issue) and it can be wrong. Not always. And this still proves my point.
And air conditioning systems are indeed unnatural, but they're not "bad".
As you can see, it was all merely reading what I said and understanding it, not just reading.

Also, the "Easy way" statement was not meant to be taken seriously. It was mere joke.

[Katana_Geldar]

...
Does the cat smile, or something?


Happy cats usually purr, their pupils aren't nearly as dilated either. They also tend to enjoy the touches you give them when they are happy. And happy cats "knead" soft places, like your lap. My cat gives me massages when she's happy.

[The Succubus]

Not when something like 75% of the native fauna is endangered :smallannoyed:

Oh, if we're placing bets, I'll put my money on a possum. Those things are vicious little b*st*rds.

[Crimmy]

Happy cats usually purr, their pupils aren't nearly as dilated either. They also tend to enjoy the touches you give them when they are happy. And happy cats "knead" soft places, like your lap. My cat gives me massages when she's happy.

I blame my weird cat for not knowing the kneading thing.
All the other stuff is kinda natural to my own, but only after it has eaten, or after it has woken and is still sleepy.

[OracleofWuffing]

You three missed one word:
"Tends"
As in, usually, not always, it can be.
And where I've added emphasis is where I have the problem. When you say it's usually wrong, you're saying that a whole lot of people are doing something that's usually wrong. Including both me and you. I'd argue that we've both done far more unnatural things today than natural. Heck, not just today, this week. This month. This year. Anywho, we'd probably also fall into the hole that it's natural for humans to do unnatural things, at which point, we become cross-eyed.

By the by, can I namedrop Principia Ethica, or what that make me sound like a nerd? :smallsmile:


If you take into account that poisoned rivers filled with chemical waste, and massive deforestation is unnatural and also wrong, my point is proven.
Actually, I don't take those being unnatural into account. Chemicals can enter waterways without human help, such as in a Red Tide. Deforestation occurs "naturally" through lightning. Radon is a naturally occurring gas. Yup, all those examples are natural things.

[Teddy]

And as for de-clawing... :smalleek: I had no idea it was actually removing the claws entirely! Thought it meant filing them down to blunt stubs. I mean... damn, regular humans can be sadistic when they're doing The Right Thing.

(EDIT: Wikipedia informs me the procedure is illegal in the UK and much of Europe as a matter of prevention of animal cruelty. Verrrry interesting.)

I think you're confusing de-clawing with ordinary cutting of a cats claws, which basically equals to cutting your own finger and toe nails.

[Crimmy]

And where I've added emphasis is where I have the problem. When you say it's usually wrong, you're saying that a whole lot of people are doing something that's usually wrong. Including both me and you. I'd argue that we've both done far more unnatural things today than natural. Heck, not just today, this week. This month. This year. Anywho, we'd probably also fall into the hole that it's natural for humans to do unnatural things, at which point, we become cross-eyed.

And once again you missed the point. I gave more examples, but you actually didn't quote those... I wonder why? Maybe because they help my case? No? I was sure that explaining "Usually = Always is incorrect"

Now, once again so you can read this and see what I mean, we do things that are unnatural. Unnatural things tend to be wrong.
I also said:
1.- Chemically poisoning rivers and Massive deforestation, which are human actions (unless there's some sort of Uranium volcano spitting Uranium to the rivers that I don't know about) are wrong. Period.
2.- Having exotic animals as pets can be wrong, like having a freakin' tiger, as an example, is wrong. But having a dart frog as a pet is not, because they're harmless if they're born captive.
3.- Most human inventions, like the wheel and cooling systems for the house are not bad, and are still unnatural.

Point proven, and next time quote everything, not just the parts that will make me look worse and you best. Everything.



Actually, I don't those being unnatural into account. Chemicals can enter waterways without human help, such as in a Red Tide. Deforestation occurs "naturally" through lightning. Radon is a naturally occurring gas. Yup, all those examples are natural things.

Sure. You said it.
Deforestation happens. Massive Deforestation happens only because humankind likes to chop down forest quicker than they can grow.
It's a natural process that forests burn and grow again, but they happen in certain parts of certain forests, and they tend to happen so new trees grow, so it's natural and good.
Chopping down forests in the way we usually do leaves little to no time for new trees to grow, not to mention the stumps are left there sometimes, leaving no space for new plants.

Chemicals can enter waterways in a natural way, like a Red tide, sure.
But it is also a process that balances the life in certain waterways.
You can't possibly make me believe that Uranium and Mercury happen in a Red Tide.

[Teddy]

And once again you missed the point. I gave more examples, but you actually didn't quote those... I wonder why? Maybe because they help my case? No? I was sure that explaining "Usually = Always is incorrect"

Now, once again so you can read this and see what I mean, we do things that are unnatural. Unnatural things tend to be wrong.
I also said:
1.- Chemically poisoning rivers and Massive deforestation, which are human actions (unless there's some sort of Uranium volcano spitting Uranium to the rivers that I don't know about) are wrong. Period.
2.- Having exotic animals as pets can be wrong, like having a freakin' tiger, as an example, is wrong. But having a dart frog as a pet is not, because they're harmless if they're born captive.
3.- Most human inventions, like the wheel and cooling systems for the house are not bad, and are still unnatural.

Point proven, and next time quote everything, not just the parts that will make me look worse and you best. Everything.

Okay, I'm trying to not get too involved in the discussion, but I kind of dislike the way you "prove" your arguments.

First of all, you've stated that unnatural things still are bad in most of the cases (since you actually said 'tends to' = 'usually', and I hope you agree on that 'usually' = 'most of the cases'), which leads to a few interresting questions which should be answered before you even state something like this: What's our way of determining if something's unnatural and what's our way of determining if something's bad?

Second, you give us examples of three areas which (according to you, mind you) are completely wrong, wrong in some cases, and not wrong - following that order. How on Earth does this prove the point? I could prove that anything's good or bad if this constitutes proof. Especially if I get to hold my own ideas on the matter as the fundamental truth (I'm not going to debate you on chemical poisoning, but I still won't hold keeping tigers as pets being bad as a fundamental truth).

Now, I do have my own opinions on the core matter, but I guess they're too convoluted and un-uncompromising for me to bother bringing up in a heated and fast-paced discussion. So I guess I'll stick to this, debating others debating style. :smallamused:

[Crimmy]

First of all, you've stated that unnatural things still are bad in most of the cases (since you actually said 'tends to' = 'usually', and I hope you agree on that 'usually' = 'most of the cases'), which leads to a few interresting questions which should be answered before you even state something like this: What's our way of determining if something's unnatural
If it doesn't happen in nature, without the help of mankind.

and what's our way of determining if something's bad?
We base it on Humanity's general idea of good and bad.

Second, you give us examples of three areas which (according to you, mind you) are completely wrong, wrong in some cases, and not wrong - following that order. How on Earth does this prove the point?
It proves the point that some unnatural things can be wrong. Not all. Which is what I meant when I originally sid "tend to".

I could prove that anything's good or bad if this constitutes proof. Especially if I get to hold my own ideas on the matter as the fundamental truth (I'm not going to debate you on chemical poisoning, but I still won't hold keeping tigers as pets being bad as a fundamental truth).
So having a tiger for a pet is good? :smallconfused:


Bolded. whitefillertext

[OracleofWuffing]

And once again you missed the point. I gave more examples, but you actually didn't quote those... I wonder why? Maybe because they help my case? No? I was sure that explaining "Usually = Always is incorrect"
If we are going to be pedantic on this level, then yes, you made one more statement to which I disagreed with, which was the matter of keeping wild animals being unnatural. Since you were going with the whole "usually does not mean always" point, then me disagreeing with the points I quoted (which is probably why I quoted them, but we may never know for sure!) certainly does not help your case at all, because I'm disagreeing with more than I'm agreeing with.


Now, once again so you can read this and see what I mean, we do things that are unnatural.
If we do them naturally, then they certainly can't be unnatural, can they? Cross-eyes time!


Unnatural things tend to be wrong.
And I disagree with this, as I believe that there are more "unnatural" things that aren't wrong than there are "unnatural" things that are wrong- unless you settle on a prohibitively strict definition of "unnatural."


I also said:
1.- Chemically poisoning rivers and Massive deforestation, which are human actions (unless there's some sort of Uranium volcano spitting Uranium to the rivers that I don't know about) are wrong. Period.
You did not say that they are human actions, you made that up right there. Furthermore, yes, uranium and mercury are naturally occurring minerals, so I see no reason as to why these have to be human actions.

2.- Having exotic animals as pets can be wrong, like having a freakin' tiger, as an example, is wrong. But having a dart frog as a pet is not, because they're harmless if they're born captive.
Actually, I believe having a companion which could possibly protect you should the need arise is a natural inclination, and I honestly don't see any reason why it'd be wrong.

3.- Most human inventions, like the wheel and cooling systems for the house are not bad, and are still unnatural.
To which I don't need to comment because it supports the point I'm making. That is, a whole lot of the modern world is human-made, and if you're going to say most human-made things are not bad and unnatural, well, I think you're going far away from saying unnatural things tend to be bad. "Most" of every human invention ever is a very, very large number.


Point proven, and next time quote everything, not just the parts that will make me look worse and you best. Everything.
Fine then, have it your way. I personally prefer only quoting the relevant bits and expanding on them, because it's easier to read through and doesn't distract someone with reading the same post they've already read before in the topic. Additionally, it puts all of the points I'm making into one place instead of spreading them out. I also don't like the aesthetics of seeing a whole bunch of quote blocks in a single post, but be it not stricken in the records that I refuse to cater to this request.


Deforestation happens. Massive Deforestation happens only because humankind likes to chop down forest quicker than they can grow.
I think you're fabricating definitions on the spot. I see no indication that "Massive" is an adjective meaning "Caused by Humans," and "Deforestation" can happen through means other than humans. Beavers, for example, are the iconic excuse, but there's lightning as I've said before.


It's a natural process that forests burn and grow again, but they happen in certain parts of certain forests, and they tend to happen so new trees grow, so it's natural and good.
That's not true! Burning trees is not what gives birth to new trees (though it'd be awesome if it did!), and furthermore, raising the same type of tree in the same kind of soil repeatedly will result in robbing the soil of the nutrients the next generation of tree needs to grow properly, creating a new generation of unhealthy trees with stunted growth. That's one of the reasons we have a human invention called "Crop Rotation." I'm going to assume you believe that's a good unnatural thing. :smallsmile:


Chopping down forests in the way we usually do leaves little to no time for new trees to grow,
I don't think we "usually" chop down trees. There's plenty of lines of employment which are unrelated to chopping down trees. Accounting, Foodservice, Information Tech...


not to mention the stumps are left there sometimes, leaving no space for new plants.
Coppicing? Live stumps? You stated earlier that it's okay to grow the same tree in the same place, so I really don't see how you're not contradicting yourself if you're trying to make a valid point.


Chemicals can enter waterways in a natural way, like a Red tide, sure.
Then we're agreed.


But it is also a process that balances the life in certain waterways.
That I wouldn't agree with, but it's irrelevant to discussion unless you want to talk about whether or not balancing life is natural.


You can't possibly make me believe that Uranium and Mercury happen in a Red Tide.
Which is perhaps why I did not say as such? I said that chemicals can enter waterways without human help.

[Crimmy]

I talked about poisonING rivers, not poisonOUS rivers.
I'm sure you know the difference between these two.
Poisoning means "To poison" something.
Poisonous means it is already like that in it's original state.

And the other things you mentined keep going around in circles.

Well, I'm out of this right now, have important things to do.

[OracleofWuffing]

I talked about poisonING rivers, not poisonOUS rivers.
I'm sure you know the difference between these two.
Poisoning means "To poison" something.
Poisonous means it is already like that in it's original state.
Certainly, we can poison rivers naturally. I believe we both agreed to red tides? That'll take a not-poisonous river, and poison it. But alas,


And the other things you mentined keep going around in circles.

Well, I'm out of this right now, have important things to do.
In that case, in more cat-related news, my cat knows exactly when it's fifteen minutes until the parents come home, and will sit by the door waiting their arrival. Even though she knows she's not getting fed until hours later. :smalltongue:

[Bhu]

We now interrupt for this specially prepared message:

http://www.youtube.com/user/simonscat?blend=1&ob=4#p/u/7/4rb8aOzy9t4

[OracleofWuffing]

Oh! That reminds me! While I don't normally like the idea of giving cats as a holiday present, if I was forced to do so, I'd totally do something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-31F9_SxIg&feature=player_embedded).

[mucat]

I think you're confusing de-clawing with ordinary cutting of a cats claws, which basically equals to cutting your own finger and toe nails.

Yeah. Trimming a cat's claws is harmless, as long as you stop short of the nerve channel that runs through the inside of the claw. Declawing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy) is a whole different procedure; they surgically remove the bone the claws are attached to, back to the first knuckle joint. While it's not a matter of "this cat will never be happy again", it often causes permanent anxiety to the cat, who is now missing what he or she considers to be vital body parts. Behaviors that are normally stress relievers for the cat -- stretching the claws or sharpening them, for example -- become sources of frustration instead because they "don't work right".

Some cats, though not all, develop behavior problems, sometimes to the point where owners abandon them to shelters. Sometimes, but not usually, it also causes lifelong physical pain.

North America is about the only place where elective declawing is a common practice. (Vets in most other countries learn how to do the procedure, but only carry it out when medically necessary; to treat a tumor in the toe joint, for example.)

[Keld Denar]

Neutering is the surgical process of REMOVING THE CATS BALLS, which, due to hormones involved, drastically change the cats behavior. This is considered an acceptable, and even desired practice in most developed countries.

I don't see any difference between that and declawing. Both change the physiology and behavior of the cat in a manner more desirable for human cohabitation. If one is inhumane, they both are.

[horngeek]

And anything that's unnatural tends to be wrong.


Ohhh, boy. This argument bugs me.

So, you'd consider anything natural to be right?

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, declawing cats is Serious Business, if it's being seriously compared to using rivers as toxic waste dumps. I grew up with two cats who both had their front claws removed, and they seemed perfectly fine. Our later two cats kept their claws, and didn't seem any different.

[Katana_Geldar]

Neutering is the surgical process of REMOVING THE CATS BALLS, which, due to hormones involved, drastically change the cats behavior. This is considered an acceptable, and even desired practice in most developed countries.

I don't see any difference between that and declawing. Both change the physiology and behavior of the cat in a manner more desirable for human cohabitation. If one is inhumane, they both are.

Um, you know a cat can be about a month old for it to be sexually mature? And they have a gestation period of a little more than a month? I don't know how often cats come into season, but it usually involves them spraying a rather unpleasant smell about the house.

I would rather have my cat neutered than to deal with her many boyfriends as well as the kittens that would no doubt plonk out every so often. Would you rather have cats that are healthy and can be looked after by people better because they're missing a few bits? Or would you rather lots of mangy cats about the place in deplorable conditions?

Or, if you are willing to be humane, you can always drown the kittens in a burlap sack when they're born. It used to be done all the time.

And many cats are neutered while still kittens, my cat was neutered at six weeks. She's also very, very independent and territorial, I wonder what would happen if she had admirers or kittens.

[Lhurgyof]

Wow, declawing cats is Serious Business, if it's being seriously compared to using rivers as toxic waste dumps. I grew up with two cats who both had their front claws removed, and they seemed perfectly fine. Our later two cats kept their claws, and didn't seem any different.

Indeed, this is the stance I normally carry. I've never noticed a difference between declawed cats and clawed cats.

Edit: To the natural argument.
Does your definition of natural not include man and man-made things? Because we're a part of nature, too, along with the things we do/make.

But if you mean nature minus humans, than why do you have domesticated animals? That in and of itself is unnatural.

[Teddy]

If it doesn't happen in nature, without the help of mankind.

So, everything a human does is unnatural? My point is that the line might not seem as crystal clear to everyone.


We base it on Humanity's general idea of good and bad.

You realise that you're at the same time debating against this, right? There is no such thing as "Humanity's general idea of good and bad." There are so many opinions flying out there that you can't hold any of them for the absolute truth. Especially since the absolute truth would be based on what essentially is opinions in conflict with other opinions, no matter which ones of them you chose, and thus would become an oxymoron.


It proves the point that some unnatural things can be wrong. Not all. Which is what I meant when I originally sid "tend to".

First of all, be careful when you use the word 'proof' (or any derivation thereof), since proof does actually have to prove that something's right or wrong, not just state what essentially is a personal opinion. Opinions won't prove anything, unless the question is what your personal opinions are, of course. :smallwink:


So having a tiger for a pet is good?

It's circumstantial, I'd say. Since I don't believe that we live in a world of absolute black and white morality, I don't think that 'not always bad' = 'always good', or that 'not bad' = 'good' for that matter.


Hmm, I seem to overuse the word 'absolute' when discussing subjects like these... :smallwink:

[faceroll]

I talked about poisonING rivers, not poisonOUS rivers.
I'm sure you know the difference between these two.
Poisoning means "To poison" something.
Poisonous means it is already like that in it's original state.

And the other things you mentined keep going around in circles.

Well, I'm out of this right now, have important things to do.

What's wrong with poisoning rivers? I prefer my internet powered a lot more than some stupid ducks.


Um, you know a cat can be about a month old for it to be sexually mature? And they have a gestation period of a little more than a month? I don't know how often cats come into season, but it usually involves them spraying a rather unpleasant smell about the house.

I would rather have my cat neutered than to deal with her many boyfriends as well as the kittens that would no doubt plonk out every so often. Would you rather have cats that are healthy and can be looked after by people better because they're missing a few bits? Or would you rather lots of mangy cats about the place in deplorable conditions?

Or, if you are willing to be humane, you can always drown the kittens in a burlap sack when they're born. It used to be done all the time.

And many cats are neutered while still kittens, my cat was neutered at six weeks. She's also very, very independent and territorial, I wonder what would happen if she had admirers or kittens.

And I'd rather have a cat that can't tear up carpet.

[Serpentine]

Neutering is the surgical process of REMOVING THE CATS BALLS, which, due to hormones involved, drastically change the cats behavior. This is considered an acceptable, and even desired practice in most developed countries.Desexing prevents unwanted kittens, which are often put down or abandoned.
Desexing makes cats less likely to get into fights, and improves their life expectancy.
Desexing is usually done when a cat is very young.
Desexing often makes a cat friendlier (whether this is a good thing, morality-wise, is very subjective).
Desexing does not effect a cat's ability to defend itself.
Desexing does not impact any of a cat's everyday activities (except breeding, but I don't believe I've ever heard of a cat showing any sign that it missed it).
Desexing often reduces such problem behaviours as spraying.

Declawing (from what I've gathered here) is usually done on an adult cat.
Declawing has no benefits for the cat.
Declawing significantly impacts a cat's ability to defend itself.
Declawing significantly impacts a number of a cat's everyday activities.
Declawing prevents such problem behaviours as scratching people or objects, for which there are a number of other methods of fixing.

I don't see any difference between that and declawing. Both change the physiology and behavior of the cat in a manner more desirable for human cohabitation. If one is inhumane, they both are.As demonstrated above, no. To all of these statements.

I am very pleased that declawing is absent in Australia.

[Lhurgyof]

Desexing prevents unwanted kittens, which are often put down or abandoned.
Desexing makes cats less likely to get into fights, and improves their life expectancy.
Desexing is usually done when a cat is very young.
Desexing often makes a cat friendlier (whether this is a good thing, morality-wise, is very subjective).
Desexing does not effect a cat's ability to defend itself.
Desexing does not impact any of a cat's everyday activities (except breeding, but I don't believe I've ever heard of a cat showing any sign that it missed it).
Desexing often reduces such problem behaviours as spraying.

Declawing (from what I've gathered here) is usually done on an adult cat.
Declawing has no benefits for the cat.
Declawing significantly impacts a cat's ability to defend itself.
Declawing significantly impacts a number of a cat's everyday activities.
Declawing prevents such problem behaviours as scratching people or objects, for which there are a number of other methods of fixing.
As demonstrated above, no. To all of these statements.

I am very pleased that declawing is absent in Australia.

Umm, no. Declawing isn't usually done to adult cats and it doesn't impact a number of every day activities. O.o

I don't think getting a cat fixed is bad, either.

[Serpentine]

Umm, no. Declawing isn't usually done to adult catsSomeone mentioned it earlier. I'm not surprised if it's wrong.

and it doesn't impact a number of every day activities. O.oClimbing, stretching, sharpening claws (worth more than just sharp claws), scratching oneself, balancing, walking, playing, fighting. I'm sure others can come up with more.

edit: Put it this way. One is illegal or rarely practiced in most of the world. The other is endorsed by animal welfare groups all over the world. Thankfully* I don't know much about declawing, but this is a pretty big indication of a major difference.

*because it's not practiced in Australia, therefore I have had neither reason nor means of knowing about it.

[Lhurgyof]

Someone mentioned it earlier. I'm not surprised if it's wrong.
Climbing, stretching, sharpening claws (worth more than just sharp claws), scratching oneself, balancing, walking, playing, fighting. I'm sure others can come up with more.

I've seen declawed cats climb just fine. And, if they're inside cat that's irrelevant.

Stretching? How would that even be an issue? No declawed cats I've ever seen have a problem with stetching.

My cat still "sharpens her claws" on different objects and isn't phased in any way.

Scratching oneself? Most people only declaw the front paws, so that's irrelevant.

Balancing and walking? Also untrue. Clawed and declawed cats alike all walk the same, no signs of pain, walk at the same speed and balance very well.

Considering it's illegal where you live, I'm assuming you've never met a declawed cat, so how would you know?

[Serpentine]

I didn't say it stops the cat from doing those things, I said it significantly impacted them. And, as I mention above, I'm mostly going from what others are saying here, and I'm glad I have to do that.

[Lhurgyof]

I didn't say it stops the cat from doing those things, I said it significantly impacted them. And, as I mention above, I'm mostly going from what others are saying here, and I'm glad I have to do that.

But it doesn't significantly impact them. It barely impacts them, if it does at all.
And that's just hearsay.

[Serpentine]

To repeat (though you may've missed it): one is illegal in most of the world, and the other is endorsed in most of the world. I don't know the reasons (and am very, very glad I don't need to), but it suggests that there're some BIG ones.

Basically, you can do it in the US. If you try to do it in Australia, you'll get arrested (or fined, or whatever). I am so glad this is the case, and my faith in my country has been restored a touch.

[Lhurgyof]

To repeat (though you may've missed it): one is illegal in most of the world, and the other is endorsed in most of the world. I don't know the reasons (and am very, very glad I don't need to), but it suggests that there're some BIG ones.

Basically, you can do it in the US. If you try to do it in Australia, you'll get arrested (or fined, or whatever). I am so glad this is the case, and my faith in my country has been restored a touch.

So, a bit of Europe and Australia is most of the world now?
And Australia is a bit notorious for making everything overly-PC.

[Skeppio]

And Australia is a bit notorious for making everything overly-PC.

I do have to agree there, especially in our video games.

But this is very swiftly leading into politics. So a gentle nudge back on the topic. *nudge*

[Katana_Geldar]

Stretching? How would that even be an issue? No declawed cats I've ever seen have a problem with stetching.


Cats can stretch A LOT more with claws. Ever seen one use their front claws to stretch to the fullest extent they can and then flip themselves over like a pancake?

And Lhurgyof, America is much worse at that than us, mostly because we have the ability to laugh at ourselves and don't mind clipping tall poppies.

[Fax Celestis]

How would you like it if someone surgically removed *your* fingernails? Eh? I didn't think so.

Even worse, someone removed my rescue puppy's dewclaws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewclaw) before we found him.

That's right.

They removed his thumbs.

[Skeppio]

Even worse, someone removed my rescue puppy's dewclaws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewclaw) before we found him.

That's right.

They removed his thumbs.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to go vomit for a while.

[Lhurgyof]

Cats can stretch A LOT more with claws. Ever seen one use their front claws to stretch to the fullest extent they can and then flip themselves over like a pancake?

And Lhurgyof, America is much worse at that than us, mostly because we have the ability to laugh at ourselves and don't mind clipping tall poppies.

My cat still stretches a lot, and doesn't have any emotional/mental/physical problems at all. Nor do the other declawed cats I know.

At what? Making things overly PC? Yeah, sure. (sarcasm)
But as Skeppio said, this is getting political.

[Bhu]

Oh! That reminds me! While I don't normally like the idea of giving cats as a holiday present, if I was forced to do so, I'd totally do something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-31F9_SxIg&feature=player_embedded).

that is an incredibly patient cat :smalleek:

[Marnath]

Even worse, someone removed my rescue puppy's dewclaws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewclaw) before we found him.

That's right.

They removed his thumbs.

That's horrible. :smallfrown:
What purpose could cutting that off prove? Dogs don't use their claws to attack, even.

[Serpentine]

So, a bit of Europe and Australia is most of the world now?Most of Europe including the UK, Turkey, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, "uncommon outside the US" and a special note on the US allowing it is most of the world that actually cares about animal welfare, yes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy#Declawing_practices)

If forbidding completely unnecessary and extreme surgery is "overly PC" then I am a-OK with PC :smallsmile:

[Katana_Geldar]

That's horrible. :smallfrown:
What purpose could cutting that off prove? Dogs don't use their claws to attack, even.

Dogs can give you bad scratches. And they also dig holes.

[Worira]

Not with their dewclaws, they don't.

[Skeppio]

Dogs can give you bad scratches. And they also dig holes.

That can be fixed with claw trimmings and decent training. Cutting off their claws to fix it just seems like....a jerk thing to do. :smallfrown:

[Marnath]

Dogs can give you bad scratches. And they also dig holes.

Hmm, I didn't know that. Mostly the bite is what you need to watch for defensively.

As to holes: Thats what they make shock collars for. It hurts, but it's not mutilation, and you don't need to do it too many time before they get the hint.

[Thajocoth]

Hmm, I didn't know that. Mostly the bite is what you need to watch for defensively.

As to holes: Thats what they make shock collars for. It hurts, but it's not mutilation, and you don't need to do it too many time before they get the hint.

Shock collars are a horrible thing to use as well. I really don't understand how people are so accepting of pain being a suitable education tool for anything alive. There are always humane alternatives.

[Keld Denar]

edit: Put it this way. One is illegal or rarely practiced in most of the world. The other is endorsed by animal welfare groups all over the world. Thankfully* I don't know much about declawing, but this is a pretty big indication of a major difference.

Either way, you are mutilating an animal to improve YOUR life. A declawed animal is less destructive to property and skin. A desexed animal's personality is changed to a degree that it is considered more pleasent (not to mention the population control aspect. I don't see a difference. What makes one justified and one not? Society? I'd personally rather have my fingertips cut off than my berries. Then again, I'd rather neither. But guess what? I'm not a cat, a domesticated animal kept by humans. Cats exist in their current incarnation because of people. They exist to to be pets. Pets that provide enjoyment for people. A horny cat causing a racket and spraying everything is not an enjoyable creature, so we mutilate them. A shredded sofa or wrecked table is not enjoyable, so we mutilate them. I still don't see the difference.

So again, either one is justified and the other is justified, or neither is. I don't buy the whole "society approves one but not the other" thing. Far more people agree that spaying or neutering an animal is justified than believe that declawing is inhumane. Far more people believe that mutilating an animal for the wellbeing of society is justified than not.

[Fax Celestis]

That's horrible. :smallfrown:
What purpose could cutting that off prove? Dogs don't use their claws to attack, even.

They're weak ligaments and active dogs get them caught on things, so some people get them preemptively removed so they don't have to deal with a bloody mess should the dog tear it off on accident later.

And some people just think they're ugly. So, who knows.

[Katana_Geldar]

Keld, most of the time a cat or dog is desexed it's to improve it's own life, not just that of humans. Have you missed that point so far?

[Marnath]

Shock collars are a horrible thing to use as well. I really don't understand how people are so accepting of pain being a suitable education tool for anything alive. There are always humane alternatives.

Shock collar is the humane way. They don't hurt all that much, if they're set at an appropriate level. What would you rather people do, give the dog a stern talking to? You can't reason with an animal. :smallconfused:

[RanWilde]

Shock collars are a horrible thing to use as well. I really don't understand how people are so accepting of pain being a suitable education tool for anything alive. There are always humane alternatives.

Have you ever used it on a dog? Have you ever used it on yourself?

Shock collars are probably one of the best ways to train an animal from chasing a car/rabbit/child/dog/whatever down the street.

[Skeppio]

What would you rather people do, give the dog a stern talking to? You can't reason with an animal. :smallconfused:

What? You can. You totally can. My grandparents did it all the time with their dog. Obviously they can't understand you. It's all about tone. They can and will understand a stern "no" after a bit of practice.

[Marnath]

Have you ever used it on a dog? Have you ever used it on yourself?

Shock collars are probably one of the best ways to train an animal from chasing a car/rabbit/child/dog/whatever down the street.

This is a good point. I have it on good authority they hurt less than tasers. I don't have firsthand knowledge though, as I'm not the kind of guy who puts on a dog shock collar just because of a dare. :smalltongue:

[RanWilde]

This is a good point. I have it on good authority they hurt less than tasers. I don't have firsthand knowledge though, as I'm not the kind of guy who puts on a dog shock collar just because of a dare. :smalltongue:

Not a dare, my father and I wanted to see exactly how much it hurt. And tasers are awful if used improperly, almost as bad as fire hoses.

[Worira]

It's not about a dare. It's about making sure you know what something feels like before you subject your pet to it. Just like how police are typically required to have tasers and mace used on them before they can use them themselves.

[Marnath]

Not a dare, my father and I wanted to see exactly how much it hurt. And tasers are awful if used improperly, almost as bad as fire hoses.

I was actually referring to my friend with that comment. Not as a general thing(although I know it's not uncommon to find guys who'd think that was a great idea.)

[RanWilde]

It's not about a dare. It's about making sure you know what something feels like before you subject your pet to it.

Exactly. It hurt but only as much as a good spanking. It wasn't like getting the snot beaten out of you or anything.

Best I can equate it to. :smallbiggrin:

[Katana_Geldar]

What? You can. You totally can. My grandparents did it all the time with their dog. Obviously they can't understand you. It's all about tone. They can and will understand a stern "no" after a bit of practice.

Dogs want to please you, you're part of their "pack" and the "top dog". A well-trained dog will do what it's told.

Cats on the otherhand...

[Marnath]

Dogs want to please you, you're part of their "pack" and the "top dog". A well-trained dog will do what it's told.

Cats on the otherhand...

My grandfather's favorite summary of the subject: "Dogs look at us and the things we do to feed and care for them and think 'they must be gods!' but cats see the same thing and think 'WE must be gods!'." :smallbiggrin:

[RanWilde]

My grandfather's favorite summary of the subject: "Dogs look at us and the things we do to feed and care for them and think 'they must be gods!' but cats see the same thing and think 'WE must be gods!'." :smallbiggrin:

Exactly. Which is why I love/hate my cats and love/annoyance my dogs.

G'night everybody!

[Amiel]

If the cat took the Great Cleave feat, said cat could potentially kill several commoners.

Relevant picture;
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/7b3e2efe-fa16-4218-ab18-703bc1d4d707.jpg

[horngeek]

Dogs have masters, cats have servants. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

If the cat took the Great Cleave feat, said cat could potentially kill several commoners.

Relevant picture;
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/7b3e2efe-fa16-4218-ab18-703bc1d4d707.jpg

Good, but it needs some amateurish MS Paint adding in "YOU!" in there somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

[Amiel]

Good, but it needs some amateurish MS Paint adding in "YOU!" in there somewhere. :smallbiggrin:

Is the following picture okay? :smallbiggrin:
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/ymcacat.jpg?w=400&h=473

[Serpentine]

Shock collar is the humane way. They don't hurt all that much, if they're set at an appropriate level. What would you rather people do, give the dog a stern talking to? You can't reason with an animal. :smallconfused:There are a hundred different ways of reasoning with, training and disciplining a dog. A shock collar is... horrifying. At the very least, if you're going to do something like that, get the one that squirts a nasty-smelling spray.

Keld: I listed several reasons for desexing that are for the benefit of the cat, other cats, and/or the environment. There are no ways declawing benefits the cat.

[Thajocoth]

Shock collar is the humane way. They don't hurt all that much, if they're set at an appropriate level. What would you rather people do, give the dog a stern talking to? You can't reason with an animal. :smallconfused:

The dogs we have seem to react to being scolded. I know they can't understand it, but they seem to realize that they've done something wrong.


Have you ever used it on a dog? Have you ever used it on yourself?

Shock collars are probably one of the best ways to train an animal from chasing a car/rabbit/child/dog/whatever down the street.

We use something called a "fence" for that. It works great! The dogs only go in the backyard or house. They know not to go through the front door or a fence door if it's opened, unless they're on a leash (which is very much a rarity), and we didn't have to use ANY pain whatsoever for them to learn that! I don't know how they were taught exactly as I wasn't the one doing it, but I know we never had shock collars or anything like that and that hitting them wasn't part of it either.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Kitties are adorable, but I am not fond of their pointy ends. Kitten teeth can go right through gloves. >.<

[Syka]

Desexing cats (and dogs and many other animals, like rabbits IIRC) actually does benefit the animal. Rabbits, at least, if not spayed before a certain age have huge health risks if they do not mate. But, as with anything, there are risks to desexing, too.

Over all, if possible I'd avoid either for my pets. Oz's younger dog is not neutered (I believe their older female was spayed, however). But then, any pets I have would be predominantly indoor and at a low likelihood of encountering a member of the opposite sex in the same species (then again...Oz's late dog who just passed was the product of two purebreds breeding dogs (of different breeds) escaping their confines and getting it on).

EDIT: It's also fairly easy to get a dog to respond to verbal training if you are A. consistent and B. forceful. The younger dog...oh boy, he knows from a LOOK when he's done something wrong. If he does something he knows is wrong and hears the Tone in Oz's or his mom's voice, the dog automatically goes outside because he knows he'll be put there anyway.

The way Oz does it is he will stand over him and make him lay on the ground. It's not painful for the dog, and it shows him that the humans are the alpha's. He rarely misbehaves and they only had an issue with the older dog when she got near the end of her life (kinda hard not to use the living room as a yard if you can't control it well, etc).

[Kastanok]

I'm not a dog-fan usually but I've had reason to spend a lot of time in a small house with three dogs and been trained in how to deal with them. Things like forcefully saying 'down!' and pushing them off when they jump up but, more importantly, turning away from them and ignoring them to stop it happening again. And managing intra-pack relationships - pecking order, eating behaviour, providing attention in such a way to maintain pack structure. I think I learned more than the dogs :P

Not to mention the one time I negotiated with a horse. "Alright, fine, one quick bite of grass from the verge then we're moving, okay!?"

I'm not sure where I'm going with this post - it's gotten way off topic.

[Gullara]

Desexing? Never heard that term before.

One that topic, my parents always get our male cats fixed. We live on a farm and the cats are outside. If they aren't fixed they will run away.

[Syka]

Desexing? Never heard that term before.

One that topic, my parents always get our male cats fixed. We live on a farm and the cats are outside. If they aren't fixed they will run away.

I didn't realize that. That is, honestly, a little odd that they would totally leave just to get it on. Are there no lady cats around?

[shiram]

I've seen tons of declawed cats, and they never seemed to mind, as they would basically do the same things clawed cats do. I havent seen them just after the operation though...

Also i would think its better for a cat to get declawed than to get euthanized in a shelter.

Anyways all this discussion as confirmed something i alreayd knew, if ever i get pet, it will be a dog.

[Gullara]

I didn't realize that. That is, honestly, a little odd that they would totally leave just to get it on. Are there no lady cats around?

None that aren't related to them.

That brings up another point. Most people don't want their female cats having kittens all the time. They're cute, but eventually there will be too many and then you end up with "barn cats". Basically they never trust humans and are vicious little suckers. I've never had to deal with that myself, although most farmers (around here) do.

[Asta Kask]

None that aren't related to them.

I honestly don't think that matters.

But the male migration instinct can be very powerful, especially when spring time comes around and there are delicious birds in every tree...

*sings*

I'm Abraham deLacy... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFZc3gyBEOA)

[bluewind95]

We fixed our cat because we were told that the hormones would increase her risk of cancer later on. Since we never wanted to breed her, the extra cancer risk was 500% unacceptable. We were also warned that she was likely to run away if a tomcat came around, and that in and of itself poses health risks. We DO get quite a few stray cats around here.

She didn't become friendlier. And we didn't do it because of the "benefits" it would have to us. We didn't de-claw her because it would give her no benefit. We trim her claws whenever she gets them too long (now, too-long claws WILL bug a cat).

I think that if you don't want your carpets/furniture damaged you shouldn't get a cat at all, declawed or not. They WILL find ways to mess it up, be it scratching, throwing up or having "accidents" eventually. Especially if they get mad at you for some reason. If they figure it's going to bug you, they WILL do it on purpose (Like our kitty that will mess with my plushies if we leave her alone too long :smallannoyed: She's also been known to mess with clothes, other people's plushies, and papers. And MY JIGSAW PUZZLES! :smallfurious:).

If you get a pet you have to understand that it won't always be possible to have the pet leave stuff alone that it should leave alone. If you can't deal with that, well... you shouldn't get a pet at all. A dog or cat will always be akin to a small child: it's GOING to get into mischief. Some are better-behaved than others, but the possibility is always there.

As for small children... it depends on the animal in question, but in my experience, animals tend to be more or less tolerating of little ones (infants, anyways. A kid's fair game according to my cat). My cat is a wild thing. Outsiders are scared of her. And we aren't, but we have to be very respectful when handling her or she will act wild (she's a sweetheart in her own way, though. She'll bite and scratch, yes, but she'll also sand guard on our bedrooms if we're sick, and she'll lie down on our legs if we're watching TV, and she'll snuggle on my mom's shoulder). When my cousin first came to visit when he was a toddler, well, we were worried. We kept watch to make sure he didn't bug the cat (though he LOVED trying it...). The cat NEVER hurt him. She'd tolerate him, even though you'd see by her ears she wasn't happy. Once he even crawled up to the cat, his nose almost touching hers. She sniffed him, and wasn't happy, her ears went tense. But she didn't hurt him at all. If he REALLY got in her nerves, she'd just slap him without extending her claws, or she'd move as though she was going to bite him, but she'd just use pretty much just her "lip", IF she touched him at all. Generally ,she'd just threaten him.

... An older kid that loved to torment her? Well. I don't know *exactly* what happened, but the kid ended up panicking every time he saw her. The cat, delighted, would chase after him. The kid would run away crying, the cat close at his heels. Then the cat would triumphantly walk away...

[Sholos]

None that aren't related to them.

That brings up another point. Most people don't want their female cats having kittens all the time. They're cute, but eventually there will be too many and then you end up with "barn cats". Basically they never trust humans and are vicious little suckers. I've never had to deal with that myself, although most farmers (around here) do.

Actually, you're thinking of "feral cats", which are the ones that don't like people. "Barn cats" are kind of a mix between the two. They might let you pet them or just generally be around, but don't try to take them indoors (generally you can't pick them up, either).

Also, as it is quickly becoming my custom on cat-related threads:

http://www.declawing.com/

Go. Read. Be educated.

[Asta Kask]

That may not be an entirely impartial site... and I don't think it's because declawing is so cruel. I wouldn't do it myself, but banning it seems a tad extreme.

[Coidzor]

I didn't realize that. That is, honestly, a little odd that they would totally leave just to get it on. Are there no lady cats around?

Tom cats also don't generally like hanging around a large group of cats that is clustered around their owner for some reason.

[Asta Kask]

It's probably a territory thing. I know my cat thinks it's hugely important and meows annoyedly that I'm not pulling my weight when it comes to defending his. Ours.

[Gullara]

I honestly don't think that matters.


I'm talking about brother/sister or cousin relationship, which is close enough.


Actually, you're thinking of "feral cats", which are the ones that don't like people. "Barn cats" are kind of a mix between the two. They might let you pet them or just generally be around, but don't try to take them indoors (generally you can't pick them up, either).


I think your definition of feral cats is the definition of barn cats around here.

[Marnath]

Tom cats also don't generally like hanging around a large group of cats that is clustered around their owner for some reason.

This. We had barn cats for a long time, and I've NEVER encountered a tomcat that lived past sexual maturity. They run off and get hit in the road, after producing 1d6-1 litters of unwanted kittens. :smalltongue:

[RanWilde]

There are a hundred different ways of reasoning with, training and disciplining a dog. A shock collar is... horrifying. At the very least, if you're going to do something like that, get the one that squirts a nasty-smelling spray.

Keld: I listed several reasons for desexing that are for the benefit of the cat, other cats, and/or the environment. There are no ways declawing benefits the cat.

Horrifying? Really? If you think thats horrifying you should see the way would treat animals in the "old" country. My Onkel has a kennel where he breeds pure bred Shepherds.

[Asta Kask]

I'm talking about brother/sister or cousin relationship, which is close enough.

Oh absolutely. I just don't think the cats give a damn.

[Katana_Geldar]

They do let you know that they like you from time to time. Even my cat, who is fiercely independent, has nice moments. It's either to tell you they want something or to convince you they are worth having around. Just when you think the cat is a selfish old thing, they are nice to you.

[Asta Kask]

They need to keep you off balance. Living with a cat gives you a sort of Stockholm Syndrome... :smallsmile:

[Bhu]

Kitties are adorable, but I am not fond of their pointy ends. Kitten teeth can go right through gloves. >.<

You get used to it. My friends cat isn't declawed, and he's a shoulder napping kitty. Unfortunately he tends to walk up behind you when you are sitting with no warning, do a flying leap onto your back/shoulder, dig in to remain there without falling, an then haul himself up onto your shoulder for cuddles. He's a sweet kitty otherwise he's just...ignorant of certain things. Like damage.

[Sholos]

I think your definition of feral cats is the definition of barn cats around here.

I don't think I want to meet your ferals.

[Johel]

I would hate to see an enraged housecat with enlarge or some other buff spell.

...

Mouahahahahahaha !!!
*go plotting the next random encounter*

[Katana_Geldar]

I have always considered cats to be Chaotic.

[Gullara]

Oh absolutely. I just don't think the cats give a damn.

In my experience they do. It's a genetic thing.


I don't think I want to meet your ferals.

No you don't. They're why we don't have cows anymore:smalltongue::smallamused:

[bluewind95]

No you don't. They're why we don't have cows anymore:smalltongue::smallamused:

They ate the cows?! :smalleek:

[Eldan]

They ate the cows?! :smalleek:

No, because they had to kill all the feral cows.
It's a pretty huge problem here in Switzerland: they raid stores and the bulls tend to attack people. That leads to pretty horrible injuries. Our local hunters are pretty busy keeping the populations down, but with all the mountains, you never get them all. Yes, I'm joking.