View Full Version : Question about a Wizard/Rogue Build (3.5)

Gnome Alone
2010-11-01, 10:47 PM
Greetings, all. I was wondering if anyone could help me out with a particular idea for a build.

I took the "What D&D Class Are You?" test and it said I was a Neutral Good Human Wizard/Rogue. Knowing this to be not that unusual of a multi-classing option, I discussed it with my brother (a wise and mighty DM) and he offered an idea:

Suppose this character wants to be a great rogue, in fact aspires to legendary status, yet unbeknownst to everyone is actually more of a wizard and all his amazing dexterous shenanigans turn out to be from things like casting Cat's Grace on himself and doing Silent and Still spells to preemptively mess up his marks before he literally, physically messes them up.

It sounds like a fun role-play idea to me, but I'm pretty new to D&D (only character I've ever played is a duskblade/fighter) and not really sure how to pull this off. So, does anyone have any suggestions on how to make this work? I realize I could probably use the wizard abilities fully in service of the rogue antics, but I actually think it'd be even more interesting if the me-analogue was really more of a skilled wizard, albeit a secret one. Anyway, appreciate any advice y'all can gimme.

2010-11-01, 11:48 PM
A dual-progression PrC would be helpful here. Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, et cetera.

Or, you know, Beguiler.

Copious use of Prestidigitation.

2010-11-02, 12:03 AM
Wonderful thing about the wizard is its able to do almost any role, and wonderful thing about roleplaying is you can make a character seem like anything you want ;) one idea is to take your first level as a rogue and the rest wizard so you have the rogue skills but wizard spells. With rods of silent and still you will be able to keep your wizard skills a secret (possibly even from other pc's until you unleash the twinned repeated empowered polar ray on the annoying fly that kept you from picking the lock)

2010-11-02, 12:57 AM
Rods use would get quite expensive (with only 3 uses per day each) and you can only use one rod at a time, so you'll want to use hide, then silent spell. How you want your wizard/rogue identity to work depends on several factors, do you want a wizard with sticky fingers? Do you want a rogue that just knows a few magical tricks? Do you just want a wizard that has skillmonkey aptitude? Answering "What do I want from a character" usually gives you the answer of how to build it.

2010-11-02, 03:22 AM
unseen seer followed up by spellwarp sniper, that is if you're looking for lots of casting. do it right and you can get 9th level casting and 6d6 sneak attack along with 2d6 sudden ray strike and a bunch of other nifty little abilities

2010-11-02, 04:21 AM
Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8
Spellthief 1/ Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4
Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ Assassin 1/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 4
Beguiler 1/ Wizard 3/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Ultimate Magus 10/ Unseen Seer 3 (with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler and Master Spellthief feats :smallwink:)
Grab the spell Hunter's Eye (PHB II) from Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning.

Also, here is a handbook that may be of use: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-02, 04:29 AM
Why does your character take the effort to hide his powers instead of being a blatant magical rogue like these folks are suggesting? That's a whole bucket of work.
Does he want to have his big magic as an unexpected trump card? Hiding a huge part of your skills from the world (not to mention giving up the mundane comforts massive magic use can give) seems a pretty paranoid thing to do; you might be able to run with the character that way.
Are magical rogues disrespected? Why? If the wizards disrespect him, they wouldn't disrespect him more than they'd look down on a mundane rogue. If the rogues disrespect him, what reason do they have to do so? Is using magic seen as cheating, gaining glory that you should have earned with your physical abilities? IMO anybody with that sort of attitude would fall pretty quickly to a more pragmatic rogue, and regardless of the prevailing attitudes your character could gain acceptance and renown by pulling off increasingly daring and WTF feats of roguishness.

2010-11-02, 05:37 AM
Check out books like Complete Scoundrel and Cityscape, feats like Invisible Spell and skill tricks will be great. Arcane Trickster and the like are definite pluses since they'll boost both abilities at the same time. Races of Destiny is good too, either Chameleon or Human with Able Learner. Keep your sneak skills up whilst playing as a Wizard, and I'd definitely recommend Wizard since a high Int doesn't hurt a Rogue. If you dip into Assassin then it will help. You also have a broader range of usable spells, and earlier access to them so easier to multi class.

Practiced Spellcaster definitely, keep your Caster Level up. Spend 3 levels in Rogue, then Wizard till prestige? I think, since you'll want Wizard levels, but Evasion and 2d6 Sneak Attack is useful. Point Bank Attack and Precise Shot affect spells, inside of 30ft ranged attacks use SA, using that, I think you might be able to apply SA to spells. Not sure of that though. Although Spellwarp Sniper does it. 'shrugs' Fun class that, S. Sniper. Invisible, silent, stilled spell which does an extra 2-4d6 damage is hilarious.

Gnome Alone
2010-11-02, 06:47 PM
Thanks for all the advice, fellows and possibly fellowesses.

I'll definitely check out Unseen Seer, Arcane Trickster, and Spellwarp Sniper, all of them sound like they could provide what I'm looking for.

One question and one answer, though.

The question, would one level of rogue really cut it, if I wanted to emphasize the roguish abilities? I mean, I know wizards are plenty powerful and can stealth effectively enough on their own, but would not, as one poster mentioned, Evasion and 2d6 Sneak Attack be worth it, especially if I took Practiced Spellcaster to keep up the CL? Of course, I have no problem with just taking one level of rogue if it would really work.

The answer: Yes, sure I could just be an all-out magical rogue, but it just sounds like more fun to me to impose this restriction on myself, even if it's a bucket of extra work. I was definitely already thinking "paranoid" as a trait, and even in a world that completely accepts mages, I think that it'd still be seen as more impressive to have super-duper rogue skills entirely of your own making without arcane assistance; my character wants to impress the crap out of people, I think that's a pretty realistic motivation. Not to mention, it kind of provides a built-in character development progression: eventually my dude's gonna come clean about the wizardry. Possibly even as a result of having to uncork the world-shattering spells to save the other PCs; does that somehow NOT sound fun?

2010-11-02, 06:56 PM
There's no rod of still spell, probably from the purpose being defeated by waving a rod around. I don't know a way around it with a wizard without eating 2 spell levels on every spell. You might want eschew material components too. Or maybe he could pull this off as a psion?

2010-11-02, 07:10 PM
Hey, if you want to cast a spell without looking like you're casting a spell, and you have rogue skills... check out Concealed Spellcasting skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. Add a cheap trinket from the same book that lets you do it twice per scene/encounter and you're pretty well set without mucking around with all the metamagic feats and rods.

2010-11-02, 09:03 PM
Hey, if you want to cast a spell without looking like you're casting a spell, and you have rogue skills... check out Concealed Spellcasting skill trick from Complete Scoundrel. Add a cheap trinket from the same book that lets you do it twice per scene/encounter and you're pretty well set without mucking around with all the metamagic feats and rods.

This. Skill tricks make a lot of archetypes viable, and this is one of them.