Guidance for a 3.5 Cleric

[arangatang]

I'm about to join a low-level 3.5 edition game with a notorious killer DM. I am leaning towards playing a human cleric or druid, and hope to keep the rest of my party alive (a ranger, barbarian, and rogue).

I think we're using 25 point buy, and I'm coming in at level 2 with the standard level 2 wealth. Is there anything I can do to optimize? I think we're sticking with Core, Spell Compendium, and the Complete Series.

[jiriku]

Oh boy can you optimize a cleric.

Cleric Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0)

Player's Guide to Healing (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_And_why_you_will_be_Jus t_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)

[Keld Denar]

Well, the simplest thing you can do is aim for DMM: Persist. Divine Metamagic is a feat in Complete Divine that lets you burn turn attempts to fuel metamagic at a rate of X+1 turns per spell, where X is equal to the spell level adjustment of the metamagic. Since Persist is a +6 metamagic (its in Complete Arcane btw), you'd get one persistant spell per 7 TU attmepts you can scrounge up. Persist Spell makes a spell last all day long, which is incredibly useful.

Thats kinda cheesy and tends to be frowned on, especially if you use it for self buffs like Divine Powah or Righteous Might. Even with party buffs like Recitation or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (both in SpC), it tweaks the power level up a couple steps.

Barring that, I'd suggest some things like Divine Spell Power to get increased caster levels (which makes things like Greater Magic Weapon or Magic Vestaments better). Don't completely forget about turning though, with a slight investment in gear, you can be pretty competant at it and its really useful for things like intelligent undead that have lowish HD despite their Turn Resistance (don't really try to turn zombies or skeletons past level 3-4, they get 4 HD per CR). You can also double dip with the spell Turn Anathema from Complete Champion, which allows you to turn outsiders as well. Outsiders tend to have MUCH fewer HD per CR than undead do. Heck, Balors only have 20 HD, and its not hard to turn a 20 HD foe by level 11 or so if you invest right. I think its more useful than a lot of people suggest, especially since the undead that tend to be REALLY scary (like Wights and Shadows) are also relatively easy to turn.

Look up some guides on useful cleric spells. There are lots of them. Keep in mind that you know ALL spells on your list, so each day you can play around with a few new ones to see how they work out.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

What exactly do you want your Cleric or Druid to do? Do you want to be a Melee Monster (both classes can easily do it)? Do you want to be sneaky (again, both can do it)?

Edit: and the Druid Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0) for your perusal.

[arangatang]

I just found out we'll be using Core 3.5 only. What options are doable in core? Also, we no longer have a barbarian, but a ranger. Thinking perhaps I should be melee.

[Gavinfoxx]

Alright! Core Cleric. Does core include SRD? Do you get the additional domains in the SRD, for example?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm
as well as
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm
I mean, or just the first list?

What prestige classes that advance divine casting are available to you. Is Prestige Paladin open? That's SRD.

Here's prestige paladin:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm

The only real prestige classes for Cleric in core without extra options are these:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm

Are variant options in the SRD for cleric open? Ask about cloistered cleric, it's in the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm

Do you have only access to the Player's Handbook? Or can you also use the DMG and the Monster Manual's stuff on character creation?

Anyway, be a human Travel / trickery domain, unless you get access to the expanded list.

Are the extra 'core' feats in the SRD, mostly in the psionic section available, like these:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm

What about monstrous feats?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm

Anyway, Wield a Morningstar. Get Extend Spell. Get craft Wondrous Item, maybe. Buy a Mithral Plate Armor with Armor Spikes and Adamantine Morningstar when you can manage it. Get Power Attack. Get Leadership if it is on the table. Maybe consider exotic weapon proficiency Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes / Combat Expertise. If Stand Still is available, get it (its an SRD feat). Pay close attention to buff spells, and spells that make melee viable for you, like:

Bless
Divine Favor
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Magic Weapon
Magic Vestment
Prayer
Divine Power
Freedom of Movement
Greater Magic Weapon
Righteous Might
Wind Wall

Make sure to buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds for healing purposes, they'll expect you to heal. Use that to heal outside of combat.

Remember, you want your items to be +1 something something, since you will use greater magic weapon and magic vestment to get the higher +'s. Make the armor spikes +1 Defending, so when you GMW them you can get lots of extra AC.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Core Only* limits the Cleric more than the Druid, but either is still very strong. Druids make excellent melee characters, especially once they can Wildshape. Once you reach level 6, you'll want to take the feat Natural Spell (Player's Hand Book, pg. 98), other than that, your feats are very flexible. I would recommend Improved Natural Attack: Claws or Bite (Monster Manual, pg. 304) if your DM would allow you to take it (it shouldn't be much of a stretch) once you've got the BAB for it, that'll increase your damage some. Another feat that you'll want to take, if allowed, is Multiattack (Monster Manual, pg. 304) as this will make your natural attacks more accurate.

For your first three feats (Human bonus feat, level 1 feat, and level 3 feat) you might look into Extend Spell (Player's Hand Book, pg. 94), Improved Initiative (Player's Hand Book, pg. 96), and perhaps Power Attack (Player's Hand Book, pg. 98). Though Extend Spell won't be useful right away, it'll be nice to have some of your buffs last longer, Improved Initiative will be a boon immediately, helping you go first to get your buffs up, and power attack is good for damage.

You may also want to familiarize yourself with Person Man's Guide to Melee Combos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026). Some of the combos presented will be unavailable to you, but tripping, bull rushing, disarming, and the like are all valid tactics for your Druid, especially once you can Wild Shape.

At early levels you'll likely be two handed Power Attacking with a Scimitar on enemies that are easy to hit, and just swinging it two handed against enemies that are harder to hit (alternately, you could use it one handed with a shield). You'll likely want to cast Magic Fang on your Animal Companion, or you can use Produce Flame at this level.

As far as an Animal Companion goes, at this level, pick a Heavy Horse if you don't expect to be going places a large creature cannot, or something medium or small size if you do. The nice thing about the Heavy Horse is it has two attacks and can act as your mount, and carry things for you. At level four you may wish to replace it with a Crocodile or Dire Bat, as recommended in the Druid Handbook.

*I assume this means only the PHB, DMG, and MMI, and not the d20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/).

Edit: Stats! You'll want to do something like WIS>CON>the rest of your stats, with a STR of at least 13 if you want to go the Power Attack route.

Further Edit: Oh, and if you can afford one, a wand of Cure Light Wounds is useful to you for out of combat healing.

[Gavinfoxx]

If going for a druid, I'd ask the DM if he can houserule Shillelagh to work on Greatclubs, and Greatclubs being Simple weapons that the Druid starts with proficiency in. Then get a high str Druid, cast Shillelagh on a Masterwork, nonmagical, oak Greatclub, two wield the sucker and oneshot things. That will pretty much get you to the point where you can maul things with claws.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Where do you see Druid's as proficient with the Greatclub?

[Gavinfoxx]

Where do you see Druid's as proficient with the Greatclub?

I don't, hence the 'houserule' part of that sentence.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Ah, I misread your sentence!

[arangatang]

Are there any good feats for a low-level druid in your experience? Is it worth being a human, or should I just be a dwarf?

Feats I'm considering are Augment Summoning (with Spell Focus: Conjuration). There seem to be few useful feats.

How about crafting? I'm the only spellcaster in my party so there's no one else to do it.

What spells do you use Extend Spell with?

[Eldariel]

Crafting is awesome with any downtime. ½ discount on all items, basically. And access to any items you care regardless of DM constraints. Craft Wondrous Items in particular is insane. Honorable mentions go to Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Rods and Craft Wands (though generally you'll want to buy your Wands).

Picking up Metamagic early isn't bad at all. In Core, Extend Spell and Quicken Spell tend to be worthwhile. Spell Penetrations will kick in a tad later too, but can be picked up early. Other option, if you happen to have 13+ Int/Str/Dex, is picking some of the Power Attack-, Improved Unarmed Strike-, or Combat Expertise-line feats (Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, et cetera) for fun once you get Wildshape.


And yeah, Augment Summoning is fine; summons tend to keep up alright if you know what you're doing and early on, Augmented Summons are excellent combat meat. Later on, you tend to want to use them more for utility (SNAIV+ for Unicorns as healbots, SNAVI/VIII for Pixies with their various spell-likes and arrows, SNAIX for Celestial Chargers and their Restorations, etc.), but early on they do fine in pure combat and for that, Augment Summoning is excellent. It's really too bad Spell Focus: Conjuration is quite useless for a Druid though; many of their best spells are Transmutation.

Improved Natural Attack tends to offer too small returns to truly be worth it, but Multiattack is a good one. Flyby Attack is an excellent feat too if you plan on using mobile flying forms and cast lots of spells in Wildshape. Both are in Monster Manual.

But really, Druid feats should build towards the later levels simply because the early feats wouldn't do much. That said, you can utilize a large number of feats, so Human, Gnome & Dwarf all have things going on for them.


Note that if Druid is your only caster, you definitely need to focus on battlefield control magic (don't worry, Druid excels at that) with spells like Entangle, Soften Earth and Stone, Sleet Storm, Spike Growth, Plant Growth, Ice Storm, Wall of Thorns, Wall of Stone, Control Winds, etc. This allows you to make otherwise difficult encounters easy for the party.

Other areas you'll want to cover are Save-or-X effects. Unfortunately Druids can only really target Fort and Ref-saves; their abilities to attack the Will-save are quite limited (though they have some Summons capable of some Will SoX-effects). Still, that's better than nothing.

Third, it will fall upon you to Dispel things. Dispel Magic is unfortunately a level 4 spell for Druid but once you get higher up, Greater Dispel Magic is still level 6 meaning you'll catch up. Detect Magic is an incredible cantrip, as ever, and Faerie Fire is a good counter to Invisibility (far better than Cleric's Invisibility Purge). Stuff like that will be important in the long run.

Finally, you'll be in charge of buffing. While Druid buffs are a bit limited, you'd do well to remember Barkskin, Resist Energy, Bull's Strength-line, Greater Magic Fang, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement and, when applicable, Death Ward (it has a short duration, but it can be a lifesaver when necessary). Learning to have someone scout ahead so you can buff before combat is very useful as spending combat actions on buffing sucks. Note that most of those last 10 min/level so they can be cast well in advance and on much higher level, in conjuction with Extend Spell can be made last all day on multiple characters (feel free to tax your allies Pearls of Power for every spell they want on them every day; that way you'll still maintain your casting ability). Greater Magic Fang is conveniently hour/level making Extend Spell able to make it last all day rather early, and multiple days later on.

Healing, as stated, should mostly be done with Wands of Cure Light Wounds. As the spell is on your list, you can use those without trouble, and Wand of Cure Light Wounds costs 750gp to cure an average of 275hp; most efficient gp/healing available in the game. As always, those should be deducted from the party funds. You'll also want a Wand of Lesser Restoration and eventually, a Wand of Restoration.

Note that Restoration isn't on Druid spell list so you'll need someone with Use Magic Device to use that. But having it is absolutely vital later on as it's the only way to counteract negative levels, ability drain and other manners of nastiness. Druid needs level 17 to get access to the spell himself (through Summon Nature's Ally IX or Shapechange), which is probably a tad beyond the ending point of your campaign. So yeah, that's a few community investments I strongly recommend. Once you get SNAIV and especially V and VI (which can summon 1d3 and 1d4+1 Unicorns respectively), the necessity of Wand of Cure Light Wounds decreases notably, but early on, you need all your slots for combat casting so you cannot spare much for healing and still, damage will be taken so you better try and poll your party funds to get a Wand of CLW ASAP.


Oh, and animal companion? Riding Dog trained for war is the way to go on level 1; Dire Bat is an excellent choice for level 4 (you can ride it and it flies and has blindsight) and then the various Bears and Tigers become excellent options. And Dinosaurs; T-Rex has style. Also, slam lots of ranks in Handle Animal and use Wild Empathy to befriend a bunch of different animals in the forests and whatnot. Birds have good eyes and many animals are very combat-capable early on.

EDIT: Oh yeah and stats? I suggest:
Middle-Aged Human
7 Str (-1 Age, 0 points)
10 Dex (-1 Age, 3 points)
14 Con (-1 Age, 8 points)
12 Int (+1 Age, 3 point)
17 Wis (+1 Age, 10 points)
10 Cha (+1 Age, 1 point)

Alternatively, cut some Dex/Int/Cha for 18 Wisdom. I personally like extra skillpoints, HP and base score for Handle Animal & co. tho. It costs 3 points to get 1 higher Wisdom. Generally I take 18 main stat with 28pb; 25pb tends to work better with a 17.


Your armor options would be Dragonhide Breastplate (600gp), Dragonhide Chain Shirt (500gp) and standard Hide Armor (15gp). If you invest a feat into Heavy Armor Proficiency, you could also pick up Dragonhide Banded Mail (700gp) and eventually Dragonhide Fullplate (3300gp), once you can afford it. That could eventually be made Wild as per the armor enhancement, which would help you greatly in Wildshape.

Either way, you'll want Heavy Wooden Shield or Tower Shield with you; Tower Shield penalizes your attacks and skills and what-not without proficiency but as you won't be doing too much of all those, it's not all that bad. Much of the time your animal companion will probably do fighting for you though; with those physicals, you'll want to wait until Wildshape to start ripping faces. So yeah, you should be able to get at least some AC from the Armor + Shield, so you aren't entirely defenseless.

If you buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds split evenly between the party members cost-wise (187.5gp per face), you'd be more or less set. Just don't forget to get a Barding for your animal companion and all is good.


And for skills:
Concentration - Max
Knowledge: Nature - Max
Handle Animal - At least 5 ranks (for animal companion & al.), I'd max.
Spellcraft - Max, as you are the only spellcaster in the party.

Spot/Listen - I'd max at least one; Druid tends to be good at these. Listen is a good way to combat invisibility.
Diplomacy - If nobody else takes it...
Tumble/Balance - Combat skills that'll come in handy especially once you get Wildshape. Cross-class.
Speak Language - You'll only cover Sylvan and one Elemental language with your free languages. Ideally you'll want all of them covered eventually; that'd be 6 ranks in Speak Language. No hurry with that tho. And of course, even more if you want to e.g. speak Elven or Dwarven or Orc or some such.

[arangatang]

Any change in advice if Spell Compendium is allowed?

[Eldariel]

Any change in advice if Spell Compendium is allowed?

*shrug* It'll give you more buff versatility, access to some Will Save-or-X spells along with some general good stuff. Feats remain relatively the same; you can still make good stuff happen with summons and there's still a number of good Transmutation spells making the SF ok and buffs still love Extend Spell (even more so) and Quicken Spell still doubles the spells you can cast in one turn (with even more options).

No, it doesn't change anything except what you ought to prepare. And that you should get Wand of Lesser Vigor instead of Wand of Cure Light Wounds since it's even more efficient.


What really defines your role is what the party lacks:
- You need to provide melee support, flanking partner for the Rogue and overall, something to tank for the party. Your animal companion has this covered early on, and Wildshape seals the deal. Purchased and Wild Empathyed/Handle Animal'd animals can also help. It's a Move Action to guide a non-Animal Companion so having one non-companion Riding Dog (for example; anything combat capable, really) around seems like a fine idea.
- You need to provide arcane-style control magic. This will determine your spell selection and means you need lots of Wisdom.
- You need to provide divine-style buffing magic. This will further sculpt your spell selection pretty much down to the wire, especially since you need to cover all the general "Caster"-tasks like defeating opposing magic.
- You need to ensure the party has access to curative and restorative magic. Due to the load already placed on your limited spell slots, this job is best relegated to items, as the spells used for these tasks have small or no caster level components and their primary use does not give a damn about saves. This means they are just as good cast off items as cast off a caster's slots, thus making them the best spells to put on Wands instead of using spell slots on.