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WarKitty
2010-11-04, 01:56 PM
I'm thinking of running a NPC-class only campaign. PC's start in a small farming settlement of about 20 families. They start with 500gp and may purchase items costing up to 150gp. They would be starting at level 2, but get full HP for all HD.

Are there any specific perils or things that PC's would have a hard time dealing with that I need to watch for?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-04, 02:16 PM
Bad idea IMO unless you are planning on making them start as NPC classesd and then move up to PC classes.

The only worthwhile class is Adept and/or magewright whichi is from Eberron IIRC, warrior is fighter without feats... let sink that in for a moment (incidentally I think the names should be reversed but whatever), expert is .... meh they can select their skills which can be good if you get the correct skills (UMD, knowledges to fuel Knowledge devotion...tumble?) but that is the only thing they have for them; and commoners are commoners (Bubs not whistanding),

So in a nutshell I would advice against an NPC class only campaing

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 02:17 PM
Bad idea IMO unless you are planning on making them start as NPC classesd and then move up to PC classes.

The only worthwhile class is Adept and/or magewright whichi is from Eberron IIRC, warrior is fighter without feats... let sink that in for a moment (incidentally I think the names should be reversed but whatever), expert is .... meh they can select their skills which can be good if you get the correct skills (UMD, knowledges to fuel Knowledge devotion...tumble?) but that is the only thing they have for them; and commoners are commoners (Bubs not whistanding),

So in a nutshell I would advice against an NPC class only campaing

Forgot to specify that it's a very short campaign and the PC's will not level.

Marnath
2010-11-04, 02:17 PM
You should be good as long as you go easier on them for combat encounters. They'll be weaker than the assumed party most monsters are built for.

Loki_42
2010-11-04, 02:23 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign?pg=1 This. That is all.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-04, 02:24 PM
Forgot to specify that it's a very short campaign and the PC's will not level.

What is the point of the campaing then? (honest question, I don't really see the point of playing and not advancing, but I have a view point that seems to differ from the norm).

Anyway in that case maybe it would be interesing, and be mindful of adepts and magewrights as they are much more powewerful/versatile by far (tier 4 against tier 6)

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 02:28 PM
actually I have toyed with the idea of doing an NPC only campaign. It would be fun. Not a long campaign, though I'd want to have some leveling.

If you are talking about power levels...you are missing the point :smallyuk:

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 02:29 PM
What is the point of the campaing then? (honest question, I don't really see the point of playing and not advancing, but I have a view point that seems to differ from the norm).

Anyway in that case maybe it would be interesing, and be mindful of adepts and magewrights as they are much more powewerful/versatile by far (tier 4 against tier 6)

It's a filler. We have 2 players missing and don't want to continue our usual game without them. I want to game still, so I volunteered to DM a one-shot for whoever shows up.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-04, 02:32 PM
actually I have toyed with the idea of doing an NPC only campaign. It would be fun. Not a long campaign, though I'd want to have some leveling.

If you are talking about power levels...you are missing the point :smallyuk:

I resent that comment, I am a powergamer so I usually give my comments with that mentality in mind, Warkitty asked for opinions and I gave her my opinions based on my mindset, I don't think that is missing the point.


It's a filler. We have 2 players missing and don't want to continue our usual game without them. I want to game still, so I volunteered to DM a one-shot for whoever shows up.

If that is the case I say go for it, I personally wouldn't enjoy this kind of game, but if your group will... I have no more to say on the subject

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 02:34 PM
I play with a heavy-RP group, so they'd probably love it. The idea was more than anything to make something where the players can build characters quickly and be fairly predictable for the DM since it's such short notice.

Sipex
2010-11-04, 02:35 PM
An NPC class only campaign would be great for a horror one shot.

Loren
2010-11-04, 02:51 PM
Orignially posted by Dusk Eclipse
What is the point of the campaing then?
My guess would be the point is one or several of the following,
a) enjoy a story
b) enjoy solving problems in a creative way
c) enjoy time with friends

There are several play styles (such as RP heavy) for which leveling up does not in fact advance the enjoyment of the game.
I had a very enjoyable game once as an NPC class (I gor elected reeve because another player thought it would be funny to put my name forward).

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 03:23 PM
the point of a npc class only campaign is not about power. So if you are talking about it from teh standpoint of power level, you are missing the point of the campaign. PLay what you want, though, I'm not telling you'd have to play it, or that you *should* want to or anything:smallwink:

arrowhen
2010-11-04, 03:49 PM
Personally, I'd want the game to start at high enough level that my character could be a swarm of Commoners. :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2010-11-04, 03:49 PM
It'll be fine, but note that your PCs will have virtual no *options*

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 03:51 PM
It'll be fine, but note that your PCs will have virtual no *options*

Yeah that's what I was looking for. Like I noticed off the bat that they won't be able to handle anything immune to normal damage. Healing will be at a premium as well.

Comet
2010-11-04, 03:55 PM
Of course you would have to tailor the story to fit the characters! If there are trolls, give the heroes torches. If there are beasts that succumb only to cold, give the heroes a single-use frostbomb or something.

So, the part about the characters having no option is just something I'm not seeing. Sure, NPC classes won't be able to solve any problems with their class features (well, except for using skills and maybe a bit of magic). They should, instead, be able to use their environment and Rule 0.
Sounds like a fun game, to me. Then again, it could be even more fun if you tried some new system that was tailor made for running tense adventures for ordinary folks. Of course, I can see why that would not be an option, I can rarely bother with learning new systems myself lately.

Cespenar
2010-11-04, 03:59 PM
Many characters in literature don't possess any extraordinary abilities. Still, there are stories (and interesting ones at that) about them. If you trust in the story you're going to tell, I can't honestly see why not.

Lapak
2010-11-04, 04:06 PM
Oh, NPC Classes only. I read the thread title and got exceptionally confused.

"So... you're just going to sit and describe to the players what happens for the whole game and roll all the dice yourself?"

Callista
2010-11-04, 04:08 PM
Make sure there are lots of useful mundane items around that they can use. Some cooking oil and a torch, for example...

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 04:20 PM
Oh, NPC Classes only. I read the thread title and got exceptionally confused.

"So... you're just going to sit and describe to the players what happens for the whole game and roll all the dice yourself?"

Fixed it for you. Also I think that would be called "writing a story." :smallbiggrin:


Make sure there are lots of useful mundane items around that they can use. Some cooking oil and a torch, for example...

Hmmm good point. They're a fairly inventive lot. I was thinking of a classic "People have been disappearing at the hands of a formerly mostly peaceful goblin tribe. You have been commissioned to find out what's going on."

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 04:54 PM
yeah, I would definitely feature a lot of A: avoidable combats, B: problems solvable with the environment, and C: a lot of social problems.
...but it sounds liekWarkitty already knows what kind of campaign you want to do...so I guess that's not helpful >.>

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 04:57 PM
yeah, I would definitely feature a lot of A: avoidable combats, B: problems solvable with the environment, and C: a lot of social problems.
...but it sounds liekWarkitty already knows what kind of campaign you want to do...so I guess that's not helpful >.>

Really only in very general terms. Although I had intended to run it where "charge in and kill them all" is plainly suicidal, and "try to negotiate and find out what's going on" is a viable option.

Marnath
2010-11-04, 05:24 PM
Really only in very general terms. Although I had intended to run it where "charge in and kill them all" is plainly suicidal, and "try to negotiate and find out what's going on" is a viable option.

So a sort of "All right boys and girls, no adventurers around this time, we gotta deal with it ourselves! Get creative." type thing? Because that sounds like a lot of fun. I'm sure with some ingenuity you could reproduce a lot of magical effects with mundane supplies.

Flour=see invisibility
Marbles/real grease=grease
rope=hold person
finely ground glass=permanent blindness spell
making said tied-up person listen to grandpa's old stories=phantasmal killer :smalltongue:
etc.

Loren
2010-11-04, 08:13 PM
I think that going this route would mean you'd shy away from the typical dungeon crawl type adventure.
"so, we're going to do all the same stuff we did before, but with really weak characters?":smalleek: It just won't go over well, eh.

I'd see this as a chance to tell those stories you wanted to see, but flashing spells, bulging muscles, and WBL kept getting in the way.

some possibilities

mundainia:
-you do average things in a cool world. Hunt, farm, be a merchant, etc
(example http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw.html )

horror
-"the mosters be com'n and yer not the guys ta stop 'em"
--these sort of game emphasizes the weakness of the characters

The Hobbit (LotR from Pippin's perspective) (see also, Narnia series)
-"the world is a big scary place full of wonders and people way more capable than you. Too bad you've got to go out and adventure in it"
--emphasis on travel and witty ways to over come obsticles. There are a few really powerful magic items and NPC's may occationally swing in to rescue the PCs. Race often more important in determining a PC's characteristics than class

Politics and intergue
-emphasis social skills and knowledges.

Survival
-Dark Sun as it ought to be. aka, "there isn't anything here, including water. What do you do?"

Mystery
-again, heavy emphasis on skills and problem solving

edit
you may also want to consider adjusting the skill list to provide better functionality. Personally I like sneak instead of MS and hise. and I like athletics to give better chase scenes.

Callista
2010-11-04, 09:21 PM
finely ground glass=permanent blindness spellWould only be temporary. Ground-up glass is... sand.

Marnath
2010-11-04, 09:24 PM
Would only be temporary. Ground-up glass is... sand.

Ground up glass particles are incredibly sharp, and will shred the tender tissues in the eyes to ribbons.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-04, 09:26 PM
Nothing inherently wrong with it, if you're willing to run a very different campaign style. Politicking, merchant stuff, that sort of thing should be the focus. If you're using commoners and aristocrats to adventure with, it's not going to work out terribly well. Combat will be frequent, and without class abilities, combat will also be boring.

So, don't go combat centric. Wealth and influence will be what matter. When they need things killed, well...there's a bar filled with adventurers hungry for gold.

Runestar
2010-11-04, 09:31 PM
Experts can get ranks in iajutsu focus. There has to be a way to take advantage of that somehow. :smallamused:

Tyndmyr
2010-11-04, 09:48 PM
Oh, if going for power, I'd probably start out as an Aristocrat, for the sick money at first level, go cha/int based, since they have diplomacy in class, and use shenanigans to pump UMD as well. That, with a lot of ranks in disguise, and you have a viable means of combat. You've also got all proficiencies, and can dip adept to easily and quickly gain access to all sorts of fun divine options.

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 10:02 PM
Well I'm only giving them two levels and banning aristocrat. I doubt there's many shenanigens they can get up to that way.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-04, 10:03 PM
Commoners have handle animal as a class skill.

Even ignoring Chicken Infested shenanigans, the ability to instantly kill things with swarms of weasels is always hilarious.

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 10:07 PM
If they can kill things with handle animal, by all means. If they can one-shot things with handle animal, they get to use that ability once before having rocks fall on their herd or something.

avr
2010-11-04, 11:08 PM
Guard dogs. 25 GP per. Suppose a character had a dozen of them?

Or even just a couple of riding dogs. They should be able to outfight most 2nd level warriors.

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 11:26 PM
Well I did say I'm assuming the players aren't out to intentionally break the campaign. Really if someone wants to break the game they'll find a way to do it. It's the stuff that comes up that *isn't* obviously meant to break the game that I'm concerned about.

Besides, if someone comes up with something like that, I'm sure forcing a few group-wide will saves would fix it...

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 11:36 PM
An NPC class only campaign would be great for a horror one shot.

What are these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)Tiny four-legged death beasts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/cat.htm)!? :smalleek:


Guard dogs. 25 GP per. Suppose a character had a dozen of them?

Guard dogs, nothing. Magebred(ecs) warbeast(mm2) mules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mule.htm). 16 gp for the magebred mule if you have handle animal and train it, though even just 8 gp for a garden variety mule makes it attractive even without the Eberron stuff being allowed. level 2 warrior or expert, 500 gp - 50 gp for animal training kit/MW tool. - 24 or 48 gp for 3 mules (most trainable at one time)

ranks: 5 +2 animal training kit +2 animal affinity +2 synergy from ride +X aid another.

Without aid another, that's a +11, so he only would need to roll a 12 to succeed. It takes 2 months to do it. If he has a single assistant, he can take 10 and get 3 mules trained into warbeasts in 2 months. If he's a commoner, he just needs two assistants, since he can't have 5 ranks in ride.

Even the 8 gp regular mule is nasty, especially when there's a number of them available for tanking. CR appropriate melee damage and tanking role(s)? Taken care of. For less than 120/500 gp, less than 100 gp if the other players are available for aiding another rather than needing hirelings to do it.30 days in a month. 2 months. so 60 days.

3 sp per day per hireling. 2 hirelings so 6 sp per day or .6 gp.

60 * 6 = 360 sp for hirelings. or 36 gp.

So that's 24 gp in mules, 36 gp in labor, and 50 gp in materials to get things up, 110 gp out of 500 gp for 3 better combatants than level 2 npc warriors that also can double as mounts. If one has grazing land rather than having to pay for feed, the cost of maintaining the mules is negligible beyond time taken each day to care for them.

If you have to pay for feed, that's 5 cp per animal per day or 15 cp per day, AKA 1.5 sp or .15 gp. 15 * 60 = 600+300= 900 cp or just 9 gp.

So, yeah, 119 gp projected expenditure.

Also, a rhino is 200 gp, IIRC, but much more easily limited than mules or donkeys.


Besides, if someone comes up with something like that, I'm sure forcing a few group-wide will saves would fix it...

By getting rid of the party, unless they're adepts, experts, or aristocrats, yeah. :smallamused: dogs, riding dogs, and mules all have better or equal will saves than a commoner or warrior unless they have a 14 or higher wisdom.

And it gets so much worse than some mules that can bear people into battle on their backs. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7097263)