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Cowboy_ninja
2010-11-06, 05:13 PM
PHB II says: " target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, influding its class features" about spells in the polymorph sub-school.

1) does that include feats?
2) does that include MY (EX) abilities? (cause i get the new forms (EX) abilities)
3) does that include my spells? (cause i think spells = class features)


Is Wildshape considered part of the polymorphed subschool?

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 05:17 PM
PHB II says: " target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, influding its class features" about spells in the polymorph sub-school.

1) does that include feats?
I think so, not sure.

2) does that include MY (EX) abilities? (cause i get the new forms (EX) abilities)
Depends, if the (Ex) abilities come from your race or type, yes. If they come from your class, yes.

3) does that include my spells? (cause i think spells = class features)
Yes.


Is Wildshape considered part of the polymorphed subschool?
No.

Also, Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange are exempt from the rules of the Polymorph subschool.

thompur
2010-11-06, 05:19 PM
I think so, not sure.

Depends, if the (Ex) abilities come from your race or type, yes. If they come from your class, yes.

Yes.


No.

Also, Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange are exempt from the rules of the Polymorph subschool.

Then what's the point?:smallannoyed:

Cowboy_ninja
2010-11-06, 06:48 PM
HOLY CRAP?!

I just read "Polymorphing (Part Three)
By Skip Williams (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)"

"As a rule of thumb, a change from a form that has a humanoid shape to another form that also has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The creature's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form at least as well as it fit the original form. The being can change minor details in its equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration."

your equipment gorws/shirnks? really? Does WotC agree with this guy? he is suppose to be a D&D Guru/Sage or something.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 06:51 PM
[/B]

Then what's the point?:smallannoyed:
The Polymorph subschool includes spells that change into specific forms, such as Troll Form and Displacer form. The subschool's text specifically exempts the spells from the Player's Handbook from the rules of the subschool.

HOLY CRAP?!

I just read "Polymorphing (Part Three)
By Skip Williams (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)"

"As a rule of thumb, a change from a form that has a humanoid shape to another form that also has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The creature's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form at least as well as it fit the original form. The being can change minor details in its equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration."

your equipment gorws/shirnks? really? Does WotC agree with this guy? he is suppose to be a D&D Guru/Sage or something.
Yes, your equipment grows and shrinks. WotC absolutely agrees with that guy, because Skip Williams was one of the authors/designers of the core rules (read the credits in the Player's Handbook). He also wrote the FAQ, IIRC.

Uncertainty
2010-11-06, 07:02 PM
3) does that include my spells? (cause i think spells = class features)

Yes.

Also, Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange are exempt from the rules of the Polymorph subschool.

Does this mean that, by RAW, wizards that partake in high PAO cheese permanently loose all of their spellcasting capabilities? Because that would be some awesome poetic justice right there, and a good way for DMs to beat munchkins at their own game...

What is the source on all of this, by the way?

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 07:08 PM
Does this mean that, by RAW, wizards that partake in high PAO cheese permanently loose all of their spellcasting capabilities? Because that would be some awesome poetic justice on the part of the DM right there.

What is your source on this, by the way?

Sorry, PAO also is exempt, I forgot to mention it.

The source is the PHB II itself, and the Rules Compendium under the Polymorph subschool (p 122). Both state that existing spell text takes precedence over that of the subschool, so any Polymorph, Alter Self, etc. spell printed before the PHB II is exempt from the rules of the subschool.

Cowboy_ninja
2010-11-06, 07:08 PM
HOLY CRAP?!

I just read "Polymorphing (Part Three)
By Skip Williams (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060516a)"

"As a rule of thumb, a change from a form that has a humanoid shape to another form that also has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The creature's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form at least as well as it fit the original form. The being can change minor details in its equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration."

your equipment gorws/shirnks? really? Does WotC agree with this guy? he is suppose to be a D&D Guru/Sage or something.

My mistake, the REVISITED series on polymorph only covers the alternate form special quality from some monsters in the MM. I take it back.

Uncertainty
2010-11-06, 07:12 PM
Sorry, PAO also is exempt, I forgot to mention it.

The source is the PHB II itself, and the Rules Compendium under the Polymorph subschool (p 122). Both state that existing spell text takes precedence over that of the subschool, so any Polymorph, Alter Self, etc. spell printed before the PHB II is exempt from the rules of the subschool.

Aww :smallfrown:. Oh well...

Cowboy_ninja
2010-11-06, 07:14 PM
Sorry, PAO also is exempt, I forgot to mention it.

The source is the PHB II itself, and the Rules Compendium under the Polymorph subschool (p 122). Both state that existing spell text takes precedence over that of the subschool, so any Polymorph, Alter Self, etc. spell printed before the PHB II is exempt from the rules of the subschool.

I'd agree but I'm reading the "Spells that Have Come Before" paragraph on pg 96 of PHBII. Which I interperate as the text of a spell takes priority of the polymorph subschool. It gives the example that polymorph subschool spells grant the str,dex,& con of the new form. However since alterself specifically states that you do not get the str,dex, & con of the new form, you dont.

Its kind of like the rule that the text of a feat is what goes not what is said in the feat summary list that begins all feat chapters.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 07:21 PM
I'd agree but I'm reading the "Spells that Have Come Before" paragraph on pg 96 of PHBII. Which I interperate as the text of a spell takes priority of the polymorph subschool. It gives the example that polymorph subschool spells grant the str,dex,& con of the new form. However since alterself specifically states that you do not get the str,dex, & con of the new form, you dont.

Its kind of like the rule that the text of a feat is what goes not what is said in the feat summary list that begins all feat chapters.

Correct. "Spells that have come before" is a sub-topic in the Polymorph Subschool section. Since Polymorph, Alter Self, etc. state that you retain your class features, the spell text trumps the subschool.


My mistake, the REVISITED series on polymorph only covers the alternate form special quality from some monsters in the MM. I take it back.
There is actually an earlier Polymorph web explanation that covers the core spells. It states that your gear can grow and shrink as well. Only if your new form cannot wear your gear does it not change size (such as Polymorphing into a Hydra). If you were to assume the form of a humanoid-shape, such as an outsider with arms and legs through the Otherworldly feat, you would keep your gear. Without looking it up (short on time), I think the only one that wouldn't change size is your armor.

FMArthur
2010-11-06, 07:29 PM
Yeah, they aren't discluded from it at all, but if they specify anything that contradicts the general subschool rules then they overrule it on that particular aspect. I don't know why this is so commonly misunderstood.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-06, 07:33 PM
Because the designers/most people made a big hoopla about polymorph being messed up.

So people assume new stuff fixes old.

But also who really reads spell text.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 11:39 PM
Yeah, they aren't discluded from it at all, but if they specify anything that contradicts the general subschool rules then they overrule it on that particular aspect. I don't know why this is so commonly misunderstood.

Well, most of the subschool's statements are either included in the original spells, or they directly contradict them. So many people, at least I do, just consider them exempt as the subschool has literally no effect on them.