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Souhiro
2010-11-08, 05:26 AM
Am I the only one who finds the "A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level" clause abusive? It also applies to the poor mook, I mean, monk.

I had in mind a build of the "Shinto Monk", which was essentially multiclassing in one level of monk, one level of cleric, then another of monk. The GM pointed the non-multiclass clause but just said "Go for it, it's the least we can do for the poor monk".


Why are these the ONLY classes that does have that? At least, in 3P, they removed the clause...

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 05:39 AM
There are also feats (feat tax) in Complete Adventurer for monk, and I think for paladin, also. Plus there's Monastic Training in the Eberron book.

Eloel
2010-11-08, 05:43 AM
Monks AND paladins? This week is getting interesting

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 05:47 AM
In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, paladins in particular have special paladin orders which get around the multiclassing issue- which generally means being allowed to advance freely in at least one class or PRC besides paladin. Sometimes it's specified, and in one case it's "paladin and any one other class".

Monks may have this too- it's been a while since I looked.

Several prestige classes say something like "a paladin who takes levels in this PRC may continue advancing as a paladin".

And I think similar PRCs exist for monks.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 05:47 AM
Perhaps Monk/Crusader would be a better choice? I'm currently playing a Monk/Warblade/Warhulk for a brawler-type character.

Several prestige classes say something like "a paladin who takes levels in this PRC may continue advancing as a paladin".

And I think similar PRCs exist for monks.
I thought that went out with 3.0. I was under the impression that in 3.5, PrCs didn't count against multiclassing restrictions.

Cerlis
2010-11-08, 05:51 AM
I think its mostly flavor, Once the monk gets off "the path" shes off it.same with a paladin.

Anyways, yes the complete adventure feats not only allows you to multiclass but also give you a unique ability.

Something like "When you smite and sneak attack at the same time the person is dazed for 2 rounds" or....well basically bonuses when you combine two class abilities


Tattooed monk and drunken master are monk PrCs. Paladin have some, read justicar the other day and it had the "paladin may continue taking levels of paladin if he takes levels of this class"

Eloel
2010-11-08, 05:52 AM
Take a look at Enlightened Fist from CDivine (or is it CWar?). It's basically a cleric/monk prc

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 05:56 AM
Perhaps Monk/Crusader would be a better choice? I'm currently playing a Monk/Warblade/Warhulk for a brawler-type character.

I thought that went out with 3.0. I was under the impression that in 3.5, PrCs didn't count against multiclassing restrictions.

If they don't specify otherwise- I think they do count for the whole paladin/monk restriction- which is why 3.5 paladin-friendly PRCs (Grey Guard, Shadowbane Inquisitor, Witch Slayer, and so on) explicitly specify that you can continue advancing as a paladin, when you take them.

What PRCs don't count for, are multiclassing XP penalties.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 05:57 AM
Eh, must be one of us houseruled it in so long ago that no one in my group even remembers that it's a houserule. :smallbiggrin:

Frenchy147
2010-11-08, 06:19 AM
Just one more reason paladins are the worst class ever.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 06:43 AM
Just one more reason paladins are the worst class ever.It's not even near (unless your DM decides to play "make the paladin fall").

Souhiro
2010-11-08, 08:15 AM
I think its mostly flavor, Once the monk gets off "the path" shes off it.same with a paladin.But the same should apply to any other class.

A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups. A rogue who takes a luxury lifes should become more laid off and careless and losing the most cutting edge techniques, and a wizard could get "off the path" as easily as monks and palas.

But only those two have that penalty.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 08:20 AM
A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups.
But think of all the rotator cuff injuries reading those books would prevent! :smallcool:

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-08, 08:23 AM
Like the other ridiculous alignment and multiclass restrictions, I tossed that rule out a long time ago. (Okay, I do enforce Paladins as LG, but that's the only one in any class I bother with.)

Myth
2010-11-08, 08:37 AM
Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 08:46 AM
But the same should apply to any other class.

A barbarian who sit downs and spends too many days reading magic tomes should lose the phisical build gained from years doing pushups. A rogue who takes a luxury lifes should become more laid off and careless and losing the most cutting edge techniques, and a wizard could get "off the path" as easily as monks and palas.

But only those two have that penalty.

It's more the "once you stop, you can't start again" that's the problem.

A barbarian who becomes lawful for a while loses his rage- but promptly gets it back once he becomes nonlawful again- and can continue advancing in barbarian.

But a standard monk (or paladin) who takes levels in another class, can never take levels in the original class again, even if they lose no powers. Unless they are in one of those special orders, or take feats to allow them to multiclass freely.

Leon
2010-11-08, 09:06 AM
Take a look at Enlightened Fist from CDivine (or is it CWar?). It's basically a cleric/monk prc

Sacred Fist (Complete Divine)
Enlightened Fist (Complete Arcane) is the Arcane Caster/Monk PrC

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-08, 09:30 AM
Illumians, masters of multiclassing that they are, can freely multiclass into and out of Paladin and Monk all they like.

Is there nothing the (human) subtype can't do?

Psyren
2010-11-08, 09:33 AM
Why would you multiclass BACK to monk anyway? :smallconfused:

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-08, 09:36 AM
...Um.

Good question.

Evasion?

Kaulesh
2010-11-08, 09:38 AM
Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!

Myth
2010-11-08, 09:44 AM
You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!

Be careful that's pretty much Tier 0 right there friend. They have perfect synergy because the Monk has really good stats anyway, so he might as well use that 18 Cha for something, and the Paladin comes right then. Don't listen to those people telling you to take the feat allowing Paladin to use Wis instead of Cha because a good leader has to have good Cha (WOTC explicitly states that to get good at Diplomacy and Bluff you need high Cha)

OTOH is the PbP scene here good? I use ENWorld but it's been... Lacking as of late. I might consider joining up here.

Telonius
2010-11-08, 09:46 AM
...Um.

Good question.

Evasion?

At level 2: +1BAB, +1 to all saves, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, and an odd collection of class skills that could conceivably help a really weird build get early entry into a PrC. Other than that, I've got nothing.

grarrrg
2010-11-08, 09:52 AM
Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets...

The Monk? He gets...

I must disagree. The Monk doesn't even get a Familiar!
The Paladin maybe, he at least has a mount. It's no Familiar though.

If they had Familiars, they would both easily be Tier -1 (that's tier negative one).

Callista
2010-11-08, 09:55 AM
There's no good reason to go back to either class. The PrCs available are just as good or better (in the monk's case you can really only get better). They do mean you have to carefully plan paladin/X or monk/X builds, and you're probably going to be playing Human or else something with a favored class in either one, but you'd be doing that anyway, right?

So in general this is just for flavor. It doesn't really hamper you mechanically. The flavor of it--the idea that being a paladin or a monk takes dedication--makes sense to me.

Myth
2010-11-08, 09:56 AM
I must disagree. The Monk doesn't even get a Familiar!
The Paladin maybe, he at least has a mount. It's no Familiar though.

If they had Familiars, they would both easily be Tier -1 (that's tier negative one).

The Paladin doesn't need one because he has d10 HD and that makes him more robust than a squishy Wizard, so he doesn't need the extra boost from a Familiar.

Monks are pretty much invulnerable, as they get SR and have high AC. Familliars would serve RP purposes only, but I think they were scrapped for flavor.

grarrrg
2010-11-08, 10:41 AM
The Paladin doesn't need one because he has d10 HD and that makes him more robust than a squishy Wizard, so he doesn't need the extra boost from a Familiar.

The Paladin ONLY gets d10hd, the Lightning Warrior (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior) at least gets d20. Still no Familiar though, although at least the Lightning Warrior explicitly doesn't get one due to flavor.


Monks are pretty much invulnerable, as they get SR and have high AC. Familliars would serve RP purposes only, but I think they were scrapped for flavor.

I'm sorry, but Monks would seriously be better off if they had a Familiar, scrapped for flavor, maybe. Maybe.

Keld Denar
2010-11-08, 11:15 AM
Is there nothing the (human) subtype can't do?
Can it see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?


You have opened my eyes to the light. I'm going to run off to Finding Players right now, find the first gestalt game I can, and apply as a human Paladin//Monk. I shall be unstoppable!
Needs more Vow of Poverty.


OTOH is the PbP scene here good? I use ENWorld but it's been... Lacking as of late. I might consider joining up here.

Its decent. Better than a lot of other places I've been like Plothook or Myth-Weavers, but thats just my opinion.

Greenish
2010-11-08, 11:28 AM
At level 2: +1BAB, +1 to all saves, Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, and an odd collection of class skills that could conceivably help a really weird build get early entry into a PrC. Other than that, I've got nothing.Or of course, you could take a variant monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les) for stuff like Imp. Trip or Imp. Bull Rush.

thompur
2010-11-08, 11:38 AM
Both classes are just so good they had to be restricted in some way.

The paladin gets full BAB. FULL BAB! He can roll a d20 to see if he can roll a d8 to see how much damage he will do! BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! This bad boy has a MOUNT. It's like a donkey, but better! It's very robust and will last trough all but the most epic of fights! He also gets detect evil at will. AT WILL!! Imagine the versatility. Like if he sees a pack of zombies - DETECT EVIL! He sees a tree - DETECT EVIL! This is a bottomless well of awesome! A Wizard could only dream of such power! Plus he can also heal, and basically makes Clerics useless.

The Monk? He gets a Slowfall effect! It's like a ring of Feather Falling but free and not quite as foolproof. BUT IT'S FREE! He also has spell resistance. Do you know what killed Larloch and made him a Lich? An 11th level Monk THAT'S WHAT! They are immune to magic and can basically never be hurt when falling off a tree (and everyone loves climbing trees). Monks also get awesome FREE weapons. At level 16 they become so damaging they kill everything in one hit (so they don't progress in damage after that. There is no point).

Yeah i think the multiclassing penalties are fine.

What gets me is that both classes are allowed to take TOUGHNESS as a feat, which, of course, makes them seriously over powered. It's that kind of cheese that ends up breaking games. Combine that with the Alertness feat and they almost don't need Toughness, 'cause they never get suprised! I just ban them. Too much trouble trying to boost the power of wizards and druids up to their level.

Yukitsu
2010-11-08, 11:59 AM
Just one more reason paladins are the worst class ever.

Still slightly hedge out monks, so long as splats are in. It's actually pretty easy to be outright broken with enough charisma abuse, nightsticks and divine feats.

Myth
2010-11-08, 11:59 AM
What gets me is that both classes are allowed to take TOUGHNESS as a feat, which, of course, makes them seriously over powered. It's that kind of cheese that ends up breaking games. Combine that with the Alertness feat and they almost don't need Toughness, 'cause they never get suprised! I just ban them. Too much trouble trying to boost the power of wizards and druids up to their level.

Yes they are part of the big three, the other class being the Fighter - they get Alertness and Toughness because of their awesome bonus feats plus the broken Weapon Specialization. I can't see spellcasters keeping up sorry! The BBEG 32nd level Lich in my game only survived because of his well hidden Phylactery, otherwise the Fighter made short work of him.

true_shinken
2010-11-08, 12:50 PM
Can it see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch?


Even though you make that joke at least 1x/thread, it still makes me laugh every time. ^^

Psyren
2010-11-08, 01:00 PM
Even though you make that joke at least 1x/thread, it still makes me laugh every time. ^^

It's certainly funnier than the endless Lightning Warrior spam.

dsmiles
2010-11-08, 01:07 PM
It's certainly funnier than the endless Lightning Warrior spam.

Though not as funny as the Old Spice commercials.

Notreallyhere77
2010-11-08, 01:14 PM
Back to the original topic, there are no other classes that I can think of with the multiclass restrictions, but if your DM allows, the PHB2 web enhancement from WotC contained a ritual to restore the ability to take levels in those classes after having multiclassed. It was called "the Unwavering Path." It requires access to the sea coast, and carries the risk of drowning if you do it wrong, but you get to fight demons and stuff. Doesn't work on fallen paladins, though (I don't think...).

grarrrg
2010-11-08, 01:18 PM
It's certainly funnier than the endless Lightning Warrior spam.

You're right, there is nothing funny about the Lightning Warrior.
Poor guy doesn't even get a Familiar.
Sorry, but you asked for it this time.

Quietus
2010-11-08, 01:25 PM
Be careful that's pretty much Tier 0 right there friend. They have perfect synergy because the Monk has really good stats anyway, so he might as well use that 18 Cha for something, and the Paladin comes right then. Don't listen to those people telling you to take the feat allowing Paladin to use Wis instead of Cha because a good leader has to have good Cha (WOTC explicitly states that to get good at Diplomacy and Bluff you need high Cha)

OTOH is the PbP scene here good? I use ENWorld but it's been... Lacking as of late. I might consider joining up here.

It's pretty good, if you can find a fast-moving game that stays alive. The bane of all PbP, you know.

Myth
2010-11-08, 02:04 PM
You're right, there is nothing funny about the Lightning Warrior.
Poor guy doesn't even get a Familiar.
Sorry, but you asked for it this time.

That made me LOL irl. Everybody's a critic though :smallbiggrin:


It's pretty good, if you can find a fast-moving game that stays alive. The bane of all PbP, you know.

All too well. So far on ENWorld I have been in too many failed games. Two lvl 1 FR games, one lvl 6 homebrew, one Deity game all failed. The Savage Tide one is running at a pace of one DM update per two weeks. The only active games are the two I DM (and i tend to go MIA for days) and one other. The pace is slow and combat... that's just painstaking.