View Full Version : Reworking the Multiclass Feats

2010-11-09, 03:13 PM
I'm planning to do an entire series of these, first updating the current ones to be less... ridiculous. They make use of TG Oskar's [MULTICLASS] feat tag, which is quoted below. First up is the Swift Ambusher, which I find slightly retarded in its current form. I'd like some feedback on its current form first though ^^

Feats with the [Multiclass] descriptor are meant to scale the bonuses of two specific classes, as intended in the feat’s description. Usually, the feat will provide various benefits: one, a set of benefits of each class will scale by gaining levels in the other class; second, a new ability may be acquired with the combination of both classes; third, some of the class skills from both classes are treated as class skills in both classes, even if normally it would be otherwise; fourth, some restrictions from each class may be waived.

To gain the benefit of this feat, a character must have multiclassed directly into both intended classes. Thus, the character must have actual levels in the class, which are indicated in the prerequisites section. Having levels in a prestige class that grants abilities similar to one of the two classes, or that increases the class abilities of one of the two classes, do not count for purposes of stacking any of the classes which may benefit from the feat. At the Dungeon Master’s discretion, this benefit may apply to specific classes and prestige classes, if the spirit of the multiclass permits it.

This part will require a bit of explanation.

Feats like Ascetic Hunter, Swift Hunter, Devoted Performer, Daring Outlaw and similar are classes that are meant to aid people that multiclass to get some of the benefits of both classes while dabbling between both classes. However, they don't have a distinctive tag, and they were used sparingly. This is an attempt to make them unique and different kinds of feats, but also to structure them into a similar feat system.

To everyone: these feats are the feats you pretty much love and hate, but with new goodies. First, you get some of the classes' benefits to stack between classes, so that the actual reason why you decided to multiclass isn't ruined (perhaps the Rogue's sneak attack, or the Monk's...unarmed strike damage and Wis to AC... The second is a unique benefit, which is meant to synergize with both classes: such as having two abilities activate at the same time, for example. The third new ability is basically allowing some skills to count as class skills for both multiclass options, meaning you get more bang for your skill points. The fourth is one that exists because of the unusual multiclass system of D&D, and specifically because of restrictions such as the Bard and the Barbarian being forcefully chaotic or lose their powers, Monks must be lawful or lose their abilities as well as the other multiclass restriction, and also the Paladin's code of conduct. This is meant to alleviate those troubles, to an extent.

To DMs: perhaps you are fine with the feats being general feats and not having a special tag, and you might not want to accept this standardization. That's fine, the idea is to take what you like from the 'brew and disregard what you don't. However, if the idea is good, then you might want to experiment with other feats in that way.

To homebrewers: I know there's a few people in the GitP forums that decided to standardize the multiclass feat system into a cohesive whole. This is an attempt to remain to the spirit of the feat while standardizing it even further (hence, the addition of class skills in-between multiclassing). This is in no way a disrespectful jab to your work or something along those lines, but rather a different way of dealing with these feats in a way that they work as they are meant to, making them standard and appropriate. If other homebrewers wish to use this standardized system for their own 'brew, welcome and thanks for your support. If not, then no hard feelings, and make sure you observe these other feat systems to see if they best fit your ideal.

Swift Outlaw [Multiclass, Scout]
Prerequisites: Skirmish +1d6 / +1 AC class feature, Sneak Attack +1d6
Benefit: You stack your levels in Rogue (or other Sneak Attack providing class) and Scout (or other Skirmish providing class) for determining your AC bonus from Skirmish. Any circumstance that would allow you to activate your Sneak Attack also activates Skirmish. Any circumstance that allows you to activate Skirmish allows you to activate Sneak Attack.
You treat class skills for either class as class skills whenever taking levels from any of the two classes. Skill points expended in any of these skills while taking levels in any of these two classes are treated as expended on class skills retroactively up to the point the feat was taken (thus, if the character spent 4 skill points on Martial Lore as a fighter, took a level in warblade, and then gained the feat, the character would have 4 ranks instead of 2 ranks in that skill).
If your favored class is any, rogue, or scout, you gain no XP penalties in any of both classes, but still take penalties with multiple classes more than one level apart.
Special: If you have Riposte, it may be used in place of Skirmish (which this then advances instead).

Swift Ambusher has been bugging me. This makes use of TG Oskar's [Multiclass] feat tag, corrects Swift ambusher to be 'in line' with the other Rogue [Multiclass] feats, and is something worth taking in my opinion.
This is a straight up port of the old one, adding in the features of the [Multiclass] tag, and the ability to have Skirmish or Sneak Attack both activate on any one trigger. So you can Sneak Attack off of moving 10 ft or Skirmish by flanking. I felt that the ability in question is pretty obvious in hind sight, which is why I added it. But that doesn't make me completely right, so feel free to yell at me.

2010-11-09, 03:14 PM
-Post reserved for more feats- #1

2010-11-09, 03:15 PM
-Reserved Post #2-

Feel free to post after this one.

2010-11-10, 11:15 AM
Soooo...this feat allows you, as long as you move at least 10ft and then make a full attack, which is pretty easy to do, add 15d6 damage to every hit, 30d6 if you are in a flanking position or attacking a blinded/unaware target?



T.G. Oskar
2010-11-10, 12:48 PM
Soooo...this feat allows you, as long as you move at least 10ft and then make a full attack, which is pretty easy to do, add 15d6 damage to every hit, 30d6 if you are in a flanking position or attacking a blinded/unaware target?



I'll...have to agree. Though, to be fair: that only happens if you stack both Rogue and Scout levels. You'd have to be somewhere between Rogue 19/Scout 1 or Scout 19/Rogue 1 to make that happen. Then again, that would work very nicely for the Rogue, since it would retroactively get at 20th level (or earlier) several dice worth of damage AND AC to boot. And I don't think you're meant to double your damage dice, though it's hard to specify how that might work. Then again, with Craven and some huge amounts of dipping you can get more than that amount.

But yeah: it is quite powerful. I'd probably allow it, but only apply it if both abilities may apply at the same time (thus, if you move more than 10 ft. and the enemy is denied their Dexterity bonus to AC, then you can activate both; else, it's just one or the other). Though...I notice that you changed it a bit: now it only stacks the AC bonus instead of the damage dice, so at the end you'd get the following:

Rogue 19/Scout 1: Sneak Attack +9d6, Skirmish +1d6/+5
Scout 19/Scout 1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Skirmish +5d6/+5

So, as it stands, it's more beneficial to have Rogue levels than Scout levels. It should stack, but with that requirement placed above (and probably limiting it to a combined maximum amount of Sneak Attack dice equal to 1d6 per every two levels, rounded down (hence, you'd have a maximum of 10d6 at level 19, which is the maximum amount of Sneak Attack you normally get as Rogue), boosting both sides equally.

Also, remember the format:
First, a set of benefits of each class will scale by gaining levels in the other class. As it stands, only Skirmish gets increased, while Sneak Attack remains the same (no increase). Also: Multiclass feats are only meant to work with the class pair (so you can't dip into PrCs to arbitrarily increase your Skirmish or Sneak Attack, since that would be contrary to the idea of stacking your levels; the idea is that you're focusing on leveling on both classes, and the feat serves as a relief to the problem of multiclassing). Battle Fortitude could have entered into the stacking progression, since it's an ability that progresses in a mathematical fashion. I would have said Uncanny Dodge, but the class already provides a stacking method (Uncanny Dodge + Uncanny Dodge = Imp. Uncanny Dodge, and levels in Rogue and Scout stack for IUD benefit). I would have also added trap sense, since you're not progressing any Rogue abilities (which inclines the balance towards taking levels in Rogue than in Scout). Finally, I would make it have a top regarding those two classes (if you wish to get a PrC that increases your Sneak Attack or Skirmish, do so, but you don't get the benefit of the feat which makes you think whether diversifying a bit would be a good idea). You may look at this (or parts of the proposal) in the following way:

You stack your levels in Rogue and Scout for determining your sneak attack damage dice, your skirmish damage dice and your AC bonus from Skirmish. You may not have a total amount of damage dice from both sneak attack and skirmish equal to half the sum of your Rogue and Scout levels, rounded down (thus, a 6th level Rogue/6th level Scout would have either 4d6 sneak attack damage dice and 1d6 skirmish damage dice, or 1d6 sneak attack damage dice and 4d6 skirmish damage dice). At each level you would receive either a Sneak Attack damage dice or a Skirmish damage dice from either the Rogue or Scout classes, you may decide whether the damage dice counts as sneak attack or skirmish.

Second, a new ability may be acquired with the combination of both classes. Basically, allowing Sneak Attacks with Skirmish integrated would seem a bit too much, but it seems to be the only thing that would stack. However, you can keep the old feat benefit and maybe add one or two more things.

Your total amount of skirmish and sneak attack damage stack for purposes of qualifying for Ambush feats (see Ambush Feats in Complete Scoundrel). However, you may only use Sneak Attack damage dice to activate Ambush feats, and you must follow the other requirements to activate the feat, as usual. As well, if you move at least 10 feet and activate your skirmish ability, you may make a special Bluff check as part of your movement; if successful, you are treated as if you had feinted the character (and thus activate your sneak attack damage dice), but only on your first attack (whether it is successful or not).

Third, some of the class skills from both classes are treated as class skills in both classes, even if normally it would be otherwise. They are intentionally limited for one reason: some class skills on one class appear on the other, and you are essentially drawing a small amount of abilities that are missing on one class and applying them to the other. For example: Scout lacks Bluff, Gather Information and Knowledge (local), which are thematic because you're learning some of the Rogue's shady combat tactics and abilities that assist you on your ambush and scouting abilities, but you don't need stuff like Forgery or Open Lock with the Scout, since those are skill sets from an entirely different suite of abilities. Same for Rogue. Thus, the skill set is intentionally limited, and usually on a 1 by 1 basis in which you're adding some but not all feats (usually those that aren't class skills in both classes but that may be necessary for the multiclass character). I'd leave you to deal with that matter. Also, I usually tend to make the example of how class skills are updated by choosing a skill and classes relevant to the example (not a mere copy-paste).

Fourth, some restrictions from each class may be waived. This can be canceled if for some reason you're not applying those restrictions. The favored class restriction may seem a bit arbitrary since you're forced to remain between one or two class levels nearby. This is more important for, say, Bard or Warlock or Hexblade or Paladin, whom have alignment restrictions than anything else. However, I see no further problem with this particular one; just a mild clarification.

...I also have to point out that I have some [Multiclass] feats already worked out (gasp!), mostly those from Complete Adventurer.

Duke of URL
2010-11-10, 12:56 PM
Why not just make a generic Mulitclass feat, like:

Prerequisite: Class level 3 in two different base classes.
Benefit: Choose a level-dependent class feature from each of two different base classes that you have at least 3 levels in. Both of these features progress at a rate determined by adding the class levels from both classes together.
Special: Pairs of class features whose effects already stack with each other (e.g., Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike) cannot be selected with this feat. You may select this feat multiple times, each time choosing class features from a pair of classes not previously selected with this feat.

2010-11-10, 01:38 PM
And TG breaks me wide open...

I originally had Rogue/Scout exclusively, but I remembered the ridiculous methods of getting SA. And Skirmish. I like Battle Fortitude as an exchange, but Trapsense is traded away for Penetrating Strike all the time. I don't want to kick melée people in the nuts.

I originally had a fairly good list of shared skills (I think it was open lock, the social ones, and speak language). I dropped UMD.