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grarrrg
2010-11-09, 06:44 PM
I'll try to keep this short.
Helping design a one-shot scenario (Pathfinder) based on the first part of Final Fantasy 1.
For the 3 or 4 possible players, there will be 6 characters pre-rolled to choose from. All starting at level 2, likely maxing at 4.
Fighter = Fighter (wow, really?)
Black Belt = Monk
Thief = Rogue
White Mage = Cleric (*)
Black Mage = Wizard (*)
* undecided if casters will be 'prepared' or 'spontaneous', if the latter, then Sorcerer replaces Wizard, and Cleric will be adjusted (for those who don't know, Final Fantasy 1 casting was VERY similar to spontaneous).

I need help deciding what class(s) the Red Mage would be, remember starting at level 2.
Note: the main (only) dungeon will be at least 50% undead.
Possible Ideas:
Paladin/Wizard
Bard 2
Fighter/Cleric/Wizard (pick 2)
Other (please, MINOR adjustments only)

Thoughts?

Glyphic
2010-11-09, 06:48 PM
Paladin Sorcerer would be kinda cool, once you get divine grace.

Bard.. you'd have to do something with Bardic music to keep it in theme.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 06:58 PM
Red Mage could be Bard or Magus.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-09, 07:01 PM
A properly done Red Mage would be a Mystic Theurge without early-entry cheese, so it might not be doable at level 2.

TroubleBrewing
2010-11-09, 07:07 PM
From those options, the obvious choice is bard.

If you had to pick another one, why not beguiler or factotum?

The-Mage-King
2010-11-09, 07:08 PM
From those options, the obvious choice is bard.

If you had to pick another one, why not beguiler or factotum?

I would personally go with Factocum. It works.

Eldonauran
2010-11-09, 07:20 PM
Red Mage = Fighting / Black Magic / White Magic / Armor

Closest to this in D&D: Duskblade with access to paladin/cleric spell list

I would just give the Duskblade the Arcane Disciple feat for free and make them choose between healing and or anti-undead spells.

Tengu_temp
2010-11-09, 07:31 PM
Red Mage: take a bard, remove bardic song, add the ability to choose spells from the wizard and cleric lists, make casting int-based. If it's still too weak, improve their hit die to d8 or give them more spell slots per day.

Susano-wo
2010-11-09, 08:01 PM
Yeah, Bard with Cleric and Wiz lists sounds good, with some of the better spells taken off (well, I guess that last part only applies if you are going high enough)

regarding White and black mages, I would probably do some sort of Spontaneous variant cloistered cleric, since FF white mages can't fight well at all, and do Sorc for BLM. ANd yeah, that fits pretty well perfectly.
Go knock 'em down, Garland
(I'd also be interested in how this turns out. sounds like it could be fun

Gametime
2010-11-09, 08:03 PM
Red Mage: take a bard, remove bardic song, add the ability to choose spells from the wizard and cleric lists, make casting int-based. If it's still too weak, improve their hit die to d8 or give them more spell slots per day.

This should work fine. Maybe add a few bonus feats or full BAB. Access to both spell lists is nice, but (just like with the actual Red Mage) limited spells known and spells per day is going to prevent it from being as good as a straight wizard or cleric; some added fighting ability would go a long way to making up for that.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 08:06 PM
Shugenja makes a good Red Mage. Blasty, healy, and you can even use a (short) sword.

No spell failure in armor either, and no need for PrCs

T.G. Oskar
2010-11-09, 08:06 PM
Well, for the White Mage/Black Mage things, you could have one of two options:

One, Cloistered Cleric and Wizard (non-specialist). DDO has a system that works quite similarly to FF1 (the latter versions; the earlier versions are clearly using the Vancian system) that have MP, but at the same time they "prepare" their spells per day. This is if you decide to use the Spell Point system, in any case.

The other is going Favored Soul (which is pretty much a spontaneous casting Cleric) and Sorcerer, but allowing them to change their spells every now and then (assume they can only memorize the specific amount, but if they go to a spell store/magic item store, they can "buy" new spells to memorize, exchanging one known spell for a new one at a 1:1 ratio). Then, you can have the same amount of spells known and spells per day, while still allowing a FF1-flavored change.

As for Red Mage, basically use the Bard as a basis, remove all songs and give them accessibility to both the Cleric and the Wizard spell list, but at the same moment and with the same amount of spells known. That should make it sorta balanced, since they'll have limited spells known slots and their spellcasting will be delayed (to represent the fact that while they'll use spells from both sides, they won't get the higher level spells as the other classes do). Bard 2 should get them a few 0-level and 1st level spells, so if you allow spells of both spell lists on them, you might work something out pretty nicely (but still limit them with their most important asset, which is spells known, and they won't in any case eclipse the Cleric or Wizard). Maybe also expand the weapon list a bit, add a longsword and maybe a scimitar or two. Perhaps a few martial weapons may come at hand. And don't call it Bard; call it Red Mage and that should be it.

Consider that, fight-wise, the Red Mage resembles somewhat the Bard or Rogue at fighting, as in-game their fighting capabilities are somewhat close to the Thief and/or Ninja than to the Fighter/Knight.

There are also a few things to work out, depending on how much of Final Fantasy you're adding and how much of D&D you're keeping. Turn Undead isn't a FF classic (that's left to the Bard and his Requiem), nor Sneak Attack (until FFXI); very few metamagic feats exist (Empower Spell is similar to Turbo MP), and even fewer feats. However, they are meant to exist within the D&D mainframe, so it's usually inevitable. On the other hand, a Red Mage with virtually no other class features but spellcasting within 2 classes may be a bit odd, so perhaps some Factotum class abilities could come in handy (as well as some ToB class abilities shoehorned to the Fighter without dabbling in maneuvers; if you were going for maneuvers, that'd be SaGa instead). So, mostly your choice on how you'll work it, but this'd be my humble advice.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 08:12 PM
Shugenja makes a good Red Mage. Blasty, healy, and you can even use a (short) sword.

No spell failure in armor either, and no need for PrCs

Nice! Very nice. +1 to Shugenja.

Coidzor
2010-11-09, 08:31 PM
^: Can't believe I forgot about Shugenja! :smallfrown:

Need to try them out sometime, actually..
Red Mage = Fighting / Black Magic / White Magic / Armor

Closest to this in D&D: Duskblade with access to paladin/cleric spell list

I would just give the Duskblade the Arcane Disciple feat for free and make them choose between healing and or anti-undead spells.

Or just add between 1-3 appropriate domains into the Duskblade spell list without mucking with the arcane disciple's domain slot stuff.

dgnslyr
2010-11-09, 08:39 PM
Well, Red Mages get mediocre fighting capabilities and mediocre casting of both schools. I'd say factotum, personally.

Wagadodo
2010-11-09, 08:43 PM
For the White Mage I would suggest the Oracle of Life out of the Advanced Player Guide. It is a spotenous caster that gets some very nice healing abilities. For Red Mage I would look at the Bard replacements out of the APG also.

Rixx
2010-11-09, 08:48 PM
Red Mage: Arcane Duelist bard that knows Cure Light Wounds

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard (See Arcane Duelist)

grarrrg
2010-11-09, 09:20 PM
Stupid me...
Forgot to mention, trying to keep it simple-ish. i.e. (mostly) Pathfinder Core, 2 of the (potential) players will not have played DnD (well, one dabbled in 2nd), so again, simple = good. Trying to recruit them, not scare them off.

I did mention this before, but Class levels will be from 2 to 4(ish). It is a one-shot after all, so a good number of your suggestions aren't that feasible due to lack of leveling.

Factotum isn't the best choice for Red Mage due to 1: eclipsing the Rogue/Thief in Skill-Monkey. and 2: it not getting to a high enough level for the 'casting' to be worth anything.

I like giving the Bard access to Cleric list, but keeping current spell known/slots. Giving him Full bab would maybe be a bit too good (and tengu_temp, Bards already have d8hd in Pathfinder, on a related note, the Monk is going to get either a Bab or HD boost, maybe both).
Maybe take away the music, give him Cleric access, and allow no spell failure in Medium armor?

Also, T.G. Oskar said there was no Turn Undead in FF1, I present a little thing called "The Harm Spell(s)", which were White Mage exclusive.