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Frenchy147
2010-11-09, 07:28 PM
Okay I was wondering should I play a rogue or a wizard in this party:
1.Dwarf Paladin
2.Human Cleric
3.Human Monk
4.Elf scout
5.Elf ranger
It's a low magic world, which is really the only reason I'm questioning Wizard.
I have no experience with either class. Apparently around mid-level we're going to start encountering more magic, though. The theme varies between wilderness, urban, and dungeon.

herrhauptmann
2010-11-09, 07:32 PM
If you're in a low magic world, I guess the DM would come down heavily on a god or batman wizard, right?
How about playing a basic gish instead of a full wizard? Ftr/wiz/abjurant champion. Which is very simple, possibly even underpowered gish build.

I'd say a wizard would probably benefit the team more. You've got a paladin, and a cleric, so that's your melee and divine. You've got a ranger and a scout, so depending on their builds, that's most of the sneaky stuff, and more melee.
What you have absolutely none of, is arcane.

And you've got a monk, so that's your mobile difficult terrain :)

mucat
2010-11-09, 08:00 PM
In a large party like that, a bard would work well. The more friends a bard has to manipulateempower, the more powerful he/she is.

Logalmier
2010-11-09, 08:09 PM
In a large party like that, a bard would work well. The more friends a bard has to manipulateempower, the more powerful he/she is.

True, and bard is sort of like a combination between an arcanist and a rogue, which are the two archtypes you're looking to fill.

true_shinken
2010-11-09, 08:15 PM
Bard/Marshall for great justice.

Nyarai
2010-11-09, 08:34 PM
Beguiler (PHBII) could also work - sneaky Int-based arcane caster with Trapfinding and 6 + Int skillpoints (enough so you can play face *and* trapspringer if needed). They cast off a list of mostly illusion/enchantment effects with some other good stuff thrown in (Haste is nice, though your DM may :smallmad: at Glitterdust).

dspeyer
2010-11-10, 02:49 AM
5 melee team members really calls for mass-buffs. Bard is the obvious choice, and fills in some missing arcane power while fitting into a low-magic world. Dragon Shaman, Marshall and White-Raven-focused crusader are also options.

The party also seems to be short on social skills, which points to bard again.

Kaww
2010-11-10, 02:54 AM
I'd recommend bard/sublime chord if the game gets to high lvls. Wizard is a better choice than a rogue if you ask me.

Godskook
2010-11-10, 03:17 AM
In that party, I'd vote against straight rogue:

1.You have tons of melee(or archers, but still....)

2.The scout already has most of the trapmonkey skills, and probably counts on that being a place his character can shine. Since trapmonkey is really a 1-man job, don't steal his thunder.

3.That part is totally arcane-less.

Personally, I'd take that party as an invitation to test out a DFI Bard, since with 5 melee-capable party members, it'll go quite far. Other choices:

Arcane rogue - My fav build is Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Dagerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer to finish. Be a human with Able Learner, and you're set for skills, and prepared for if/when the scout dies and the group needs a new trap-monkey.

Dragonfire Adept - A 'lesser' caster, with plenty of blasty-death, a cool debuff in the entagling exhalation feat, and best of all, no friendly fire issues.

Factotum - Factotums excel at "filling in gaps". 'Nuff said.

Any ToB/Binder/MoI/Psionic, just to get some variation on a seemingly core only group.

Gaiyamato
2010-11-10, 03:34 AM
I'll add my voice to the Bard. Use some of the bard options and I'd look at feats from Complete Arcane and Complete mage.

In particular something like Melodic Casting and Somatic Weaponry.
So you can sing your buffs, cast spells and fight in melee all without any problems.

Make him a "wizardish" type bard, but with 3l1t3 swashbuckling-party-buffing abilities whereever you can.

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10 would allow you be pretty nasty with magic, getting all the way to level 9 arcane spells, chosing some spells from the sorcerer/wizard list. But your melee would still be passable and you would still have a large number of bardic music songs and bardic music uses.

Even better is that the only feat required for those prestige classes is Melodic Casting, which is awesome for bards focusing on their music and magic. Freeing all of your other feat slots for bardic music/metamagic/melee feats.

Frenchy147
2010-11-10, 05:07 PM
Thanks everybody!

I didn't know scouts were trap-monkeys but the guy who's playing scout just told me he's got plenty of ranks in all those trap monkey skills so I'm going to go with wizard. Thanks again everybody for all the help though. :smallsmile:

Some of those builds sound pretty interesting I'm going to have to look into those for another time...:smallwink:

Last Laugh
2010-11-10, 05:34 PM
Thanks everybody!

I didn't know scouts were trap-monkeys but the guy who's playing scout just told me he's got plenty of ranks in all those trap monkey skills so I'm going to go with wizard. Thanks again everybody for all the help though. :smallsmile:

Some of those builds sound pretty interesting I'm going to have to look into those for another time...:smallwink:

They uh, aren't trap monkeys.
They don't have Disable Device/Open Lock on their skill list. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, ask your dm to houserule it (it looks like it already has been)

Godskook
2010-11-10, 05:35 PM
They uh, aren't trap monkeys.
They don't have Disable Device/Open Lock on their skill list. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, ask your dm to houserule it (it looks like it already has been)

Errata gives them Disable Device, but not open lock.

Frenchy147
2010-11-13, 02:39 PM
Oh, I guess our DM housruled it then.:smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-11-13, 02:56 PM
Okay I was wondering should I play a rogue or a wizard in this party:
1.Dwarf Paladin
2.Human Cleric
3.Human Monk
4.Elf scout
5.Elf ranger
It's a low magic world, which is really the only reason I'm questioning Wizard.
I have no experience with either class. Apparently around mid-level we're going to start encountering more magic, though. The theme varies between wilderness, urban, and dungeon.

The Scout gets trapfinding, they've already got two melee, and a healer - so they do need an Arcanist.

Last Laugh
2010-11-13, 04:42 PM
Beguiler (PHBII) could also work - sneaky Int-based arcane caster with Trapfinding and 6 + Int skillpoints (enough so you can play face *and* trapspringer if needed). They cast off a list of mostly illusion/enchantment effects with some other good stuff thrown in (Haste is nice, though your DM may :smallmad: at Glitterdust).

the beguiler needs glitterdust tho, what else will he do against golems? (Legion of Sentinels-.-)

Dr.Epic
2010-11-13, 04:47 PM
You got a ranger, scout, and monk, so yeah, go wizard.

Callista
2010-11-13, 04:49 PM
Low-magic, huh? Hmm... Well, how about a bard? While the DM might not let a wizard join the group--which is likely--he probably wouldn't mind a bard, considering he's allowing that cleric; enchantment spells and illusions tend to be a little more subtle, and appropriate for a low-magic kind of place. Also, if the paladin's not going to be the party face, then a bard will be a natural choice.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-13, 04:51 PM
Low-magic, huh? Hmm... Well, how about a bard? While the DM might not let a wizard join the group--which is likely--he probably wouldn't mind a bard, considering he's allowing that cleric; enchantment spells and illusions tend to be a little more subtle, and appropriate for a low-magic kind of place. Also, if the paladin's not going to be the party face, then a bard will be a natural choice.

Yeah, bard might actually be better: it's sort of a combination of the two, and it's just a ton of fun to play.

FMArthur
2010-11-13, 05:10 PM
Make absolutely sure to take the Collegiate Wizard feat (Complete Arcane p181) if you're playing a Wizard in a low-magic campaign. Normal Wizards sort of depend on (well, benefit enormously from) scrolls and other Wizards being available for them to learn more spells off of. A Collegiate Wizard learns twice as many spells on level-up, which is enough spells to mean you aren't affected by the absence of these things. It's a great feat even in a regular campaign because it's nice to feel independent and you don't have to waste time or gold or any other resources acquiring spells. In a low-magic campaign you get to stay a real Wizard using this feat, instead of just being a Sorceror who is a couple levels ahead. :smallamused:

Tvtyrant
2010-11-13, 09:17 PM
Spell Thief. Your a weaker spell caster then a Wizard, but you get Rogue abilities and skill points. Also you are quite effective at fighting enemy mages. Essentially your an arcane trickster that focus's on the trickster instead of the arcane.

The only other one that I could see meeting both your criteria would be to actually play and Arcane Trickster, but it would be higher magic.

Frenchy147
2010-11-14, 06:16 PM
Make absolutely sure to take the Collegiate Wizard feat (Complete Arcane p181) if you're playing a Wizard in a low-magic campaign. Normal Wizards sort of depend on (well, benefit enormously from) scrolls and other Wizards being available for them to learn more spells off of. :

That sounds like a really interesting feat. I'll have to check it out. I don't have Complete Arcane , but my DM usually lets us use stuff from other books as long as we can find thi information from some other source.:smallwink:

Leon
2010-11-14, 11:07 PM
Bard
Your group will love you for the support you will bring.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-15, 03:14 AM
No one likes the Spell Thief? You already have a scout and a ranger, go with the mage-killer.