Warhammer40k - Getting started with Space Marines [Archive]

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Dreistein

2006-01-02, 07:39 AM

Greetings and well met in 2006 all of ye kind folk out there!

I just wanted to open a new thread to pass down my experiences I have made with this game during 3 different editions and 15 Years of gaming experience. Target group should be any person, who has just started with the game and still wants to pay GW big bucks for having fun.

After what I have figured out, most upstarting players (laterly referred as : noobs) share something in common:
What I have seen there is extracted into these few theorems:

Dreisteins first theorem of cyclical propagation:
If there is a new codex, so will be new players who just want to rock it out. Former editions had the slight but noticable tendency to exaggregate. Example: 3rd Edition SM Codex. Released with the game and it was good. Every other codex seemed to be engineered against SM armies (not to mention Dark Eldar)

Dreisteins first theorem of cheese:
When in doubt, play Space Marines, but try not to play vanilla marines, just to give them more pow...err touch and character.

Dreisteins second theorem of cheese:
When buying new troops, go for the elites and heavies.

Dreisteins third theorem of cheese:
When buying troop choices, buy the cheapest minimum. Save the money for more elites.

With these little theorems (reality is a good proof - just visit a local store!) we can make a profile of a new gamer.

A new gamer is not really knowing, how his army works when he buys it. He is normally encouraged to play SM, because he does not need much money to do this.
He reads in the codex how cool AP1/2 weapons are and 2+ armour saves.

This ends up in boring battles with 4 persons on each side with at least 6 SM-players, each having a big chief, 2 scout squads, terminators and 1 land raider/predator tankl w lascannons. Interesting, isn´t it?

And these players usually loose it against experienced ones playing a balanced army. But why?

A noob only knows he needs 1 HQ (cool) and 2 troop choices to make a game. What is closer than buying a box of marines, make 2 five-men squads and buy a commander. Now that he has everything compulsatory he looks through his codex for cool stuff - and ends up with buying termies, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts from his pocket money. When you ask him, why he does such a crap, he will obviously answer: 2+ save is better than 3+ and the dreadnoughts can have the almighty assault cannon.
But in the end he uses only 20% of his points for troops.
He lost his focus on what is the mainstay of his army.

Just to compare the main stats (WS, BS, S, T & I):
2 is poor, 3 average and 4 above average.

Concerning leadership 7 is average, 8 above average and 9 is good while 6 is poor and 5 is lousy.

Armour values:
4+ is average, 3+ is good, 2+ is very good while 5+ is poor and 6+ is lousy.

So a very good example of an average trooper would be an imperial guardsman with plate armour upgrade (about 10 pts) 3 in everything, LD 7 and 4+ save.

But what about the marine?
He is above average and has a good armour save for 15 points.
This is your mainstay, when playing marines - not the termies.
Now the noob says, but when they move they get shot and the bolters do not rock because they do not hurt tanks. Two simple answers:
1. A marine should not walk - thats why there are rhinos and razorbacks for - but when you spent all your money on termies, you should not have enough left to buy these.
2. Tanks are for the specialists like devastators or other tank-hunters. BTW: there are some smarter noobs that use lascannons in normal SM-squads to pick out tanks...
Lousy choice. You must buy 5 Marines for 75 points and arm one with a lascannon for +35. 110 points roghly mean 2 Landspeeders with multimeltas or a predator tank. And you get hammered by your opponent´s infantry because noone can shoot at those while aiming for a tank.

Space Marines excel in close range firefights where their superior weaponry and armour gives them the edge over most other standard troops. A 10 bolter squad can wreak havoc on infantry in one turn.
Space marines have the ability to buy lots of transports so use them. You can secure mission objectives before your opponent can and hold them. Just don´t be a footslogger - that´s the guard´s way.

So a marines primary target is enemy infantry. You just need them to cope with your opponents footsloggers.

But now the noob whines that he already has his cool termies. Fine, use them. But not as footsloggers.
Termies have the best armour and are equipped with powerfists and stormbolters which are assault weapons, so you can shoot and charge. Termies teleport - usually to doom, because noone can resist in dropping them inmidst the enemy to take out a heavy weapon team or anything like that. (And get shot afterwards)
Termies should land on mission objectives until reinforcements (in form of SM in Rhinos) arrive and then proceed.
They can be very useful but eat up a lot of points. So use them wisely, you cannot afford to waste them.

Later I will give you an example of a good start and plan of spending your money.

Since we have seen that it is not good to rely too much on elite choices - they are used to give your army the edge, but cannot carry all responsibilities - we should emphasize on the core troops.

You must have a HQ-choice. There your problems start.
You have to think about the following:
Do you rely on high leadership? High LD makes the difference between firing at screening gretchinz or at the charging orcs behind so it is generally a good idea to have a high LD, otherwise you waste your premium shots. You always will face more opponents than you have SM. So every salvo is precious and should not be wasted at decoys. Therefore the SM Captain is the best choice as primary HQ. Otherwise you should at least upgrade your squads with veteran sergeants.

Having few marines is bad - only having even fewer marines is worse. So save points! You won´t need artisan armour or weapons when you can have an extra guy. Also remember, that one termie costs as much as approx. 3 marines. You do not need heavy weapons in every squad. Only in those with a suporting role like Devastators. Take meltaguns instead and save the heavy for frag-grenades or krak. Don´t forget to buy a rhino. With an additional strombolter it may last longer and supports your frontline marines in battling infantry with 4 more boltershots.
Do you really need dreadnoughts? That really depends on your favourite tactic. Since they can be dropped, they are very dangerous. If you do not know let it be and buy a normal predator instead.

Here is a preliminary "to buy"-list

1 SM Captain
1 SM Retinue box
3 boxes of SM
2 Rhinos
1 Razorback
1 Predator

or you add
1 Librarian
1 Apothecary
1 Razorback

This is a good start.

Make up two SM squads with 10 marines and give them a flamer or a meltagun. NOT a plasmagun. I will explain later. Buy them a rhino each and add an extra stormbolter.
Now you have 15 Marines left, so what to do?
Take 5 of them and make a retinue for the captain.
The cap is the best CC-fighter so optimize the squad for CC. 2 Flamers and CC-weapons if you have such bits.
A veteran Sergeant boosts the CC-power of this small squad and enebles you to buy terminator honors. In small games skip them. Try only to use the apothecary and the flag bearer. the rest only chews up points. Give them the Razorback and arm it with a multimelta.

The other marines form a devastator squad with 10 marines and 4 rocket launchers. OR 1 five man squad with 4 rocket launchers. Then you could think about buying a librarian and arm 2 marines with plasmaguns as a 2nd retinue and go for a secons apothecary. Lend close-range fire support with this squad and transport it with a second razorback armed with twin heavy bolters.
The predator is armed with autocannon/heavybolter combo and should take out nasty fire teams screened by other troops. Since it is a vehicle it must not check LD to do that.

With this you can cope almost any opponent in any game scaling 1.000-1.500 pts. Of couse you should play for objectives. It is more fun and some armies can never win by eradicating the enemy totally, so what is the fun then?
Playing vanilla marines will lead you to some point, when you may meet a certain type of mission requiring more than standard-issue troops.
SM armies are very versatile in adopting to special opponents and terrain.
Since most of your motorized troops charge the enemy and deliver short range blows it might come to the point, where this just is not enough.
Your tactical squads can be stranded in close combat and loosing it slowly but steady. Although being marines they only have a bolter which means one attack each. They can be overwhelmed by superior numbers easily.

That is where the elite squads come into play. Lets first check what we have:

Veterans
These elite warriors can do anything a normal tac squad can do. Same weapon options but - there is more.
You can upgrade them with extra attacks, cc-weaponry and even power weapons. A 6 men-squad of verterans in a razorback serves two purposes. It can give you more fire support from the razorback and the veterans can counterattack enemy squads that charged into your marine ranks.

Terminators
Very popular. They can teleport directly to the front line but you have to roll for reserves. They are also very expensive and cannot absorb losses. In CC-they are deadly but cannot hunt down a routed opponent.

Assault Terminators
Without a Landraider Crusader alas simply to slow because they cannot charge the turn they teleported so restricted to big games or games with much terrain.

Dreadnought
Most popular. Everybody wants to have one, but why?
It is almost invincible in CC but usually inflicts only 1 or 2 losses a turn so wasted points if pushed into normal troops. Armor of 12 is not that good and easily disposed.
It can have one or two heavy weapons but most tanks are better at disposing their opponents at same cost. So why the dreadnought? It can be dropped. Correct, but one dread is weak. Use at least two with identical weaponry or do not use it at all.

Assault troops have distictive fields of operation during a game. Usually quick they can deploy almost everywhere or at least get there in one turn or two.
Therefore they also draw much fire.
They are used as mobile reserves or reaction forces or to take out a dug-in opponent in CC.

Lets look, what we have:

Assault Space Marines
Vanilla Marines with CC-Weapons instead of bolters.
Short range but best used for dug in opponents with good cover saves or as counterassault and relief for bound tactical squads. Their jumppacks make them expensive so a full squad of 10 is rarely used. 6-8 Marines are a fair share. Drop the Plasma pistol option. Usually the Marine firing it roasts himself and then you loose about 30 points for nothing. Take 2 flamers instead and fry before you charge. Every opponent taken out before cc cannot retalitate later.

Bikes
Honestly I do not often use these. They are expensive and still vulnerable, but if held in reserve, they can turn the game by denying your opponent sectors by placing fresh units inside using the turboboost rules.
Their combat-value is somewhat low. But still - with melta-charges you can thrust yourself at your opponent and place these at his artillery or tanks.

Trikes
Mobile firepower at moderate costs. Always worth considering. 3 Trikes serve as a devastator squad for 150(195) pts and save you an additional slot for tanks.

Scoutbikes
Same as bikes. Their terrain rule can give them the edge over normal bikes in dense terrain but else...
Just do not start with these unless you like scouts.

Landspeeders
Very versatile but fragile as well. Cheap vehicle able to bear the frightening assault cannon. Very mobile firepower and worth its points if you can spare them.

Generally I deem assault options really as optional and not as a must-have. If it fits your strategy, very well, but otherways try to conserve the points and spend them on cheaper units.

I apologize for posting thrice, I corrected this by now.

DeathQuaker

2006-01-03, 01:54 PM

Good advice, although I might retitle your thread, "How to get started with Space Marines." O please eventually provide advice for general "how to build an army," not JUST Space Marines.

And frankly, there're too many damn Space Marine players out there (which is another reason why all the codexes are geared towards anti-space marine stuff), and the way you word this you seem to expect newbies to start with Space Marines. Yes, I realize they are encouraged to do so, but still (and they aren't necessarily the cheapest to play, especially with some of the most recent price increases). There ARE other armies out there, and some might even be better to start with. In fact, I think one reason why there is so much cheese among newbs is that they start with SMs, which are so easy to cheese up. (Not that other armies aren't however...)

At least provide some advice on Tyranids. If the typical newb is going to start with the Battle for Macragge box set, someone needs to learn to play them. :) Of course they can also be cheesy. :)

Still all in all very sound advice (this coming from a far less experienced player)... I like that you emphasized not overdoing elites before you need them. Elites are cool but they need to be used right, and some armies' Elite units are overrated. Don't do with Elites what you can do with troops that are more numerous and still cheaper.

SilverElf4

2006-01-03, 03:19 PM

And these players usually loose it against experienced ones playing a balanced army. But why?

PersonallyI think it has less to do with what they are playing and more to do with them not knowing how to play period.

They don't know the rules well enough to use them to benefit themselves.

They don't have the battle experience to know how to manuever troops and deal with/use terrain to their fullest advantage.

They tend to get locked on each unit being a one trick pony - ie, only deepstriking units for one purpose, or maybe even only take them TO deepstrike, period.

Tactics must be pursuent to the type of army being played, no doubt. They are also pursuent to the enemy army being played. I would hesitate to play such a mechanized infantry army against some opponents and in some of the scenarios - ie, Tau standard infantry weapons can damage/destroy Rhino's, and they will have at least two, probably 3-4 railguns as well.

Still, its a good reminder that troops are the backbone of every army, even footslogging guard, and should not be neglected. :)

Dreistein

2006-01-04, 05:44 AM

Hi folks

Yeah, I know, I stuck with the marines, sorry for that.

Regarding the last comments:
Yes, I would always play such an army even against tau or tyranids, but ONLY if we would play with mission objective rules. Otherwise I agree, you could get problems.

O.k., lets generalize now:

Advice number one:
Play with advanced rules - always.
It might be hard at first, but you will learn much about the game mechanics when using victory points, objective markers and others. Do not play the whack-your-head game with borting armies. Playing fdr complete destruction could be fun for once or twice, but always it is boring.

Advice number two:
Use troop choices - take as much of them.
The game designers had for some reason developed a codex in a manner, so that it contains mainstay troops.
Standard guys that is.
Usually troop choices are cheaper than other troops. But still it is a very good thing to take a closer look at your troop choices because it will tell you much about the strenght and weaknesses and you should compare them with other troop choices from other armies. Do not compare what is not equal. A guardsman is no terminator!
And because a marine cannot kill a carnifex it does not mean he is bad.

When examining you troop choices you should first look at how many your codex offers you. Usually 2, sometimes - in case of orcs or ´nids - more.
Look at their stats, value and basic gear.
As stated before, a value of 3 in WS, BS, S and T is an average value. No need to complain.
Then you might consider the armour save. Does your troop choice have armour at all? Is it good? If it is poor, can you rely on superior numbers?
Orcs and tyranids e.g. compensate for this problem by having huge units of 30+ figures. Otherwise every wound will probably be a loss, so you should consider the endurance factor. Advancing the enemy is strongly connected with lossen and the inability to retalitate because most weapons have reduced range or may not fire at all when moved. Does your troop choice compensate by extra ruling like fleet of foot or can you buy a transport?
40K is a game where firepower can make you not lose the game but maneuverability makes you win it.
Always consider: in nearly all of the missions a point on the field must be reached, a line is to be passed or sectors are to be tested for. This means: move it!

If you have different troop choices in your codex, try to see what the other can and compare both.
The best example is the tau codex.
I know many people that like fire warriors but do not want to play kroot in the same army.

But this is what the designers had in mind:
An army that only works as a clockwork. Take out one cog and it will fail. Tau means many different aliens for one greater good. If you rely only on fire warriors then you must avoid CC under any circumstances thus depriving your army of one half of the game. If something reaches your lines you screwed it and possibly loose.
What about Chaos SM in a Rhino charging forward, unloading and then summoning bloodhounds of khorne that charge 12" into your fire warriors? This can happen in 2nd turn! Then you are finished! If you had considered taking kroot as well and waiting with them behind the fire warriors you could have countercharged and maybe killed the demons.

You see it might come to a point where you should have a balanced army or at least balanced mix of troops. Some are meant to complete each other.

Next cosideration is: which upgrades can my squad have?
Many players always include heavy weapons in their squads. This leads to a very static game because they start firing at max. range at targets with the rest of the squad out of range. And now count it: You buy about 10 figures and only one can shoot? Why then, shoot at all?
Even worse they could include anti-tank weapons and shoot at tanks. Same problem - the rest cannot hurt the tank. And for only one shot I won´t buy a complete squad. I would go for a tank instead.
At some points it might on the other hand come useful being static, like guard defending tyranids or something like that. When the mission does not require you to move, heavies are your friend. Unfortunately you do not know the mission before the game.
Therefore you should split it up and equip one half with heavies and the other half not so that one part of your troops can cover the advance of the rest.

Great example for that is orcs. I know also 2 players who count on mosha boyz only. They neglect the shooty boyz at all. Which leaves his horde grinded very often because every opponent dominates the shooting phase.

When I play my guard I equip nearly half of my squads with a heavy bolter or rocker launcher and a grenade launcher while the others get flamers and a vet-sgt. because they are morte likely to have contact.

Which leads to the next point:
Troop champions:
Question 1: Do you have any? If you play necrons or nids skip this point.
Question 2: Do you need them?
Champions lend extra attacks, a higher LD value and can buy gear. A scanner e.g. is always fine.
This totally depends on you, but squads that advance the enemy should have one because CC is more likely and losses occur more often so higher LD could be the differenc in holding the ground and running away.

Do not neglect the standard guy!

So I conclude this point:
1. Read the codex - troop choice section
2. Compare all troop choices with each other - this will give you a general hint of what is your army good at.
3. Compensate weaknesses. (Low armour? - Big squads!)
4. Try to spent at least 50% of your points in troop choices
5. Keep your army mobile. Save money for transports if your squads can have them. They enhance your troops with weapons, protection and means of getting where they want.
6. Buy accordingly. Not every advice the boyz of GW give you is good - at first they want to sell stuff, especially seldom bought and expensive stuff.
7. After that - and ONLY after that look in the other sections where to enhance your army.

I was asked before about tyranids and my best friend happens to play them. Tyranids are dangerous for unexperienced players because you can beef up everything, especially the HQ.
Everyone thinks that tyranids arre invincible in CC. Yes and no. There are some troops that can hold their ground and even guard has a chance bacause they are so many.

The first thing young players do is buying a hive tyrant and beef it up. then 2 small swarms of gaunts and then they start buying carnifexes and genestealers.
And they fail almost at any time.
They just do not undrstand the way a hive army works.

If you look at the troop section you see genestealers, gaunts and reaper swarms.
What do we see?
1. Genestealers look very nice. High WS, good strenght, rending claws. Looks like something that tears SMs to shreds IF they reach CC. They won´t.
Stealers are strong but fragile. They cost twice to thrice the point of a gaunt and die as easy as them. Most weapons have AP5 so the stealers armour is of no use. They can infiltrate and keep their heads down out of sight for a while until the rest of the swarm arrives. But what, if you would rely only on these? There would not be any swarm to arrive. In fact as an opponent I would start to shell the area with artillery or send some sentinel walkers or hellhounds with flamers to burn them out of cover. Which means, yes, they are a troop choice, but unless you are playing e.g. a mission in a space hulk with much cover and blocked sight you cannot rely on them solemnly.

The reaper swarm is next.
Mindless, cheap eating machines with lots of wounds. And they always treat all terrain as open so shove them through the woods where the profit from an enhanced cover save. You should have a big swarm of these because they can also wipe away whole squads if in combat. Disadvantages: the mindless rule (cannot occupy sectors or mission goals), cannot shoot not fleet of foot.
So relying on them only is also a poor choice.

Now we get to the gaunts.
They are very flexible and can be morphed to almost anything. BUT if you too too much of a good thing they start to cost more than a space marine. You might have a poison dripping jumping frenzy killer beast and still a bolter shell kills that gaunt outright. Could you say that for the marine? So cut it on the morphes and keep the swarms big instead. Nids are a horde army where you expect 60%+ losses before CC starts. But gaunts are expendable and countless.

Next thing to think about: buy them something to shoot or make them hormagaunts?
I say mix it. You cannot let your opponent dominate the shooting phase and sometimes a firefight is better than CC (for gaunts i.e.)
But why? Easy. All gaunts are fleet of foot and rush headlong to the enemy...and out of swarm conciousness.
So sometimnes it is a good thing to stop until big daddy arrives and shower your opponent with bugs, acid or other unwelcome stuff.

The main mistake many players do is coming in attack waves. The fastest nids are the weakest ones and can be dispatched fairly easily.
Do not make the mistake and make them too expensive.
You need lots of gaunts. In fact a horde of them, because they keep your opponent from shooting at the big fellows behind. You just cannot ignore 30 hormagaunts hopping in your direction but they buy the hive tyrant and his retinue enough time to arrive where it hurts.
But definitively you will need gaunts. Both types.

You should buy the following:
1 hive tyrant
3 boxes of brood warriors
5 boxes of gaunts
1 or two carnifexes

then, and only then start to think about the fancy stuff. Try to get some experience with a basic skeleton army. You will fastly discover their advantages and weaknesses and then you will yourself find out which assault, elite or heavy support you need.

xthetenth

2006-01-04, 10:52 PM

My Tau army is pretty much built on the same principle of troops first. I have a Shas'o optimized for high strength (plasma rifle, missle pod, and shield), a full squad of broadsides for anti-armor roles (i play a lot of games against space marines and Necrons, so the big guns are my friends). After that, I divide the remaining points by 10 and thats how many fire warriors I took, just because I love pulse weapons. Thats about (read: exactly) 650 points out of 1000 spent on troops. It works great, and I remember needing only 1 kill to get my Necron foe to phase out in a straight up killing game. He had no choice but walk his army into my relatively undamaged firing line and get mangled by rapid fire. My earlier ventures with elites and the fancy stuff got me killed quickly, so I heartily agree with the troops philosophy. Elites are for elite commanders in general. They are like a scalpel, not the big flailing mace newer players use their army as. The scalpel breaks, and you're out a lot of points quickly.

Dreistein

2006-01-05, 04:47 AM

I totally agree with that but still I fear that when anything fast manages to get between your lines you are screwed.
What can happen, if you take too much elites I want to mention here:

I seenan orc player yesterday with a warboss+ 5bosses in megaarmour on a pikk-up. Worth: nearly 450 pts.
He played against black templars. The pikk-up was shot with a vindicator. He rolled a six and pulverized the bosses.
Then it only took 2 turns to wipe out all the boyz left.
450 pts... that means 60 more orcs instead of 6! Think about that...

SilverElf4

2006-01-05, 05:29 PM

The pikk-up was shot with a vindicator. He rolled a six and pulverized the bosses.

That's exactly why I don't recommend what you did regarding mechanized marines against Tau. You'll never get through his firing line because he has 65 (!!!) weapons capable of destroying your transports and splattering dead marines all over the alien landscape.

Not that I don't like the idea, but it needs to be used in moderation. I wouldn't mount more than, say, around half my troops in mechanized transports. Otherwise its just too many eggs in too few baskets.

noof

2006-01-08, 08:59 PM

1 word...

Chaos

Dreistein

2006-01-09, 07:19 AM

Regarding the armoured marines:

When assaulting such an opponent you also need some kind of fire support.
Usually I take whirlwinds because they are cheap and fit my strategy best. Keep the rhinos out of the 12" death zone and soften up everything.
There are 65 weapons, yes, but only 32 will hit, of these only 6 will have a glancing hit and of these there is a possibility to 1:6 to kill the tank. This is one of the occasions, where i also would encourage taking a dreadnought or two instead of the predator or land raider. Arm with hvy. flamer and assault cannon.
Drop them behind the fire worriors and keep them occupied. So you need:

captain w 5 retinue in razorback
2-3 tac squads with rhino
1 whirlwind
1-2 dreadnoughts

The best marine tactic ist divide and conquer. If you give your foe a target-rich zone within 360° he does not know which target to pick first and mostly divides it up.

Akiosama

2006-01-10, 12:21 PM

Actually, don't discount Orks too much. The flaw to the strategy in the Ork example given above is that too many points were spent in too few Orks. That is a bad thing. Orks are not supposed to be well protected. Orks are supposed to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Waaagh! (Granted, Mega-armoured Orks are really cool looking... just don't take many... Maybe just the warboss if any at all.)

With their Choppa 4+ max save, and the ability to use a looted Leman Russ/Vindicator (I think), they get some nice ways to deal with the Space Marines.

Choppas make ALL Space Marine troops 4+ in CC, and Orks are pretty nasty already in CC. Further, that negates one of the biggest advantages of Terminators. Sure you have to get in close to use it... but that's what Orks do best. Attrition, mob up, mop up. Better yet... Gretchin meat shields, anyone?

And a Looted Leman Russ or Vindicator can give the Orks some much needed Ordnance quality firepower which, despite a BS of 2, can be used fairly effectively if targeted in the right areas. Ork players wil probably have to make allowances for scatter on the shot, but if placed deep enough in the enemy lines, the effects can be minimized.

The main idea that Ork players, or potential Ork players must remember is... you WILL lose troops. Spending too much to protect them is not worth the effort, in most cases. Swarm/Zerg/Overrun is the way to play Orks in most cases. Buggys are great for getting troops closer more quickly, but don't get discouraged if they get blown up. Bikes flank well, but don't get discouraged if they get blown up. They're SUPPOSED to get blown up. If they get your troops into CC even a turn sooner, or split the attentions of the enemy commander and allow more troops to enter CC... then they've done their job.

But you better be the one charging... nothing sadder to watch than an Ork army on the defensive. It's like... watching a Red mage with walls... for all you Magic players out there. It's just sad... and not right.

Marines hurt when they lose troops. They're expensive.

Orks laugh when they lose troops. It's funny.

Waaagh!

Game on!

Akio

Dreistein

2006-01-11, 05:01 AM

I have seen red magic players with walls. They are cheap, they are strong and keep all those pesky critters away until the artifacts and urza lands combined produce enough mana to break out that game-winning 20 Life fireball (not recommended against blue...)

I agree with the fact that you have to play a horde army accordingly to its character. That is: yell loud, charge and do not mind the casualties...

Akiosama

2006-01-11, 12:12 PM

Wow... haven't played Magic in a while? (Actually asking, not trying to be sarcastic, honest! ;D) Haven't seen anything like that since Wall of Stone and... hmm... Revised (3rd Edition)? We're up to 9th Edition now, and Red now generally has trouble with pacing (staying ahead to win, since red doesn't do defense well at all) if it's trying too hard to set up defenses first. I think the Urza-land/Fireball made a small comeback in Mirrodin block, but Ravager Affinity and Elf and Nail really made it a weak choice. And there certainly weren't any walls being used in this latest version.

But that's an observation about current Magic. Sligh (Fast Red/Burn) is all about 20 as fast as you can. No buiding up for a single 20 pt. fireball or anything like that. 20 pts over 5-7 turns seems to work better.

(Though Ravager was doing that in less. *shiver*)

Anyhow, enough OT from me.

Just my 2 mana, (blue & black, Glimpse the Unthinkable, mill you for 10.)

Game on!

Akio

Dreistein

2006-01-16, 08:55 AM

That´s why I allways play type 1...
Taking old jewels with new cards is le cheese extraordinare.
Just mix ornithopters with ninjas, brass man with fire whip or hermetic studies and for extra giggles add in a rod of pain. But please, we should stick to the WH40k-thread now...

But true: Wall of stone ROCKS - literally

Next theme:
Own Chapter - or not?

If you ask myself, I am an Ultramarine player for almost 15 years now. I do not really like fance extra rulings because codex-true is the way a space marine is designed.

These extra rules always encourage an inexperienced player to buy other choices than troop ones and take away maybe important slots.

This ends up in overbeefed armies with small marine numbers. Destined to lose, if you ask me.

One nice fluffy combo could be:
- apothecary in every squad
- flaw: no infiltration
- archenemy: Nurgle stuff

Usually I would say skip the extra rules when starting. Paint your marines as you like and give them a chapter. When you have collected enough models and a certain way of playing has developed, adopt the proper dogmas.
But only then.

ivanmckilliagin

2006-01-16, 10:55 AM

Ok, here ya go. Me and my brother decided to play a 500 pt game, just use bases, so we dont have to worry about buying models or painting them. so, w/ 500 SM points, i bought this army:

Captian Commander-60
--StormBolter-5
--CC weapon-1
--Masterwork Bolter-15
--Auspex -2
--Krak Grenades-2
Total = 85

Command Squad sarge and 4 -75
--RazorBack-70
Total = 145

Alpha Squad
9 Tactical Marines-135 pts
Rhino-50 pts
Total = 185

Bravo Squad
5 Scouts-65
4 sniper rifles- 20 pts
Total = 85

i should be able to play some nice tactics with that. What do you think?

Dreistein

2006-01-16, 11:28 AM

That is lovely for small games. I would swap the mastercrafted weapon against a powerweapon. Same cost - more punch!
The only gamble is that you only have the cap to take out a tank with krak grenades and a walker could really ruin your day. But if playing for mission goals it could work.

You could also try to swap the retinue of the cap and the scout sniper weapons against a predator tank. In games this small tanks are very powerful.
But still it is one of the nicest 500pts armies I have seen.

When going up to 750pts I would try a 6 marines squad with razorback w/laser.
Distribute grenades to the tac squads and special weapons, especially meltaguns. Extra stormbolter for the Rhino. Arm the retinue with cc-weapons and 2 flamers - they go to CC!

The next 250 pts could be 1 Speeder, a predator tank and a whirlwind

Your bro´ plays necrons? Aim for the warriors. His army will vanish, when 75% of these are down, cause pariah and scarab swarms are no necrons... (meaning, the have not of the type: necron thus do not count against the forces to be killed). The more special stuff he buys, the easier he´s to kill since you have to finish fewer targets.

You will have much long-term fun with that army.
Enjoy!

ivanmckilliagin

2006-01-16, 11:35 AM

i prefer the long range combat with cheap space marines. Taking wound with a 20 man army is painful. I wanted to make a CC necron army, but with only 500 pt army, you only get 20 pts after basic slots are filled. not cool. i gave all the warriors disrupters though, but i think those only work on vehicles...

SilverElf4

2006-01-16, 02:48 PM

You might also consider swapping some special options around for a some hunterkiller missles on the APC's, a lascannon upgrade, or a missle launcher to help deal with armor. As mentioned, Predators in small games cause serious havoc because of usual lack of a solid AT presence. More importantly in a small game like that with so few figures (as you mentioned), watch out for the SM-killing Hammerhead with Ion Cannon. That's a 110 pt tank carrying a weapon that fires three shots a round, hits on 3+, wounds on 2+ and ignores your marines armor save. :o

Its nasty in regular games, but in a 500 pointer...oosh.

Boddynock

2006-01-16, 05:22 PM

Eeek space marines, hate them, now if you want an army go for Elder since there cool and can be really powerful :P

Zim-Zimma-117

2006-01-17, 01:44 AM

I play Dark Angels, and I find that my Land Raider Crusader, while mighty and an Uber-Death-Machine, I usually only make a few kills before every anti-tank weapon in my enemies entire army turns it into very expensive swiss cheese. Especially Eldar (Dark included) with their ugly little "reduces all armor to 12" guns. In hindsight I would've boughtr two more predators. Oh, and not to sound like a noob (which I'm not) my 6 Deathwing Terminators and Chaplain w/ Terminator armor have never let me down. They are my one unit that have always... ALWAYS survived the battle.

metzgermeister

2006-01-17, 03:13 AM

But what about your land speeder, old faithful? she's never let you down, has she Adam?

I've got it! Land speeders coated in Terminator Armor, reduce movement by 4 inches per turn, 14 armor on all sides, resistant even to eldar weaponry. We'll have to get Alex and his beloved VDR rules on it... though I guess he will forget the whole resistance to eldar thing, he being the (not dark) eldar player.
As for Foster's DARK eldar, I say we conveniently misplace them (by misplace I mean steal, melt down and bury them in soft peat for a few months, and then use it to power your land raider. or my defiler. shall we split it 50-50?)

back on topic:

a VERY well written intro to marines; I commend you, for whatever my commendations may be worth.

Dreistein

2006-01-17, 05:16 AM

Last, but not least I want to generally talk about the heavy support slots.

Compared to Imperial Armour Space Marin tanks should be swifter (but only epic 40k recognizes this) and less protected. Mainstay of SM tanks is the predator.
For 100 pts you get a reasonable armour and you can configure it to kill infantry or tanks or even a mixture of both.

Lets see what that means:
Autocannon in the turret. 2 shots each turn and able to damage anything up to Armour 12. (I know, technically that you can also reach 13, but these are only glancing hits and somewhat desperate. This weapon is best used to pick antigravvers, bugies and pickups and you could risk a shot at the occasional dreadnought. Despite medium AP value you should wound often.

Lascannon in the turret: No comment - go for the tanks until there arn none.

But what about the sidearms?
You can have either 2 heavy bolters or additional lascannons.
Lascannons fall under the main weapon rule so both can only be fired when the tank stands still. They do not fit well to a destructor pattern predator in my opinion. Extra punch for the tank-hunter is o.k. - if you also want to be mobile go for the vindicator instead.
The heavy bolter upgrade is useful for both types.
They are sidearms and can be fired at the same target while moving. In case of the autocannon they emphasize on his rule as infantry killer. as sidearm to the lasercannon it makes the tank more flexible and also more effective against heavy infantry like SMs, big bugs while retaining his ability to maneuver. This configuration is the one I would recommend when playing the first time.
Turret - laser and 2 sponson heavy bolters.

The Devastator squad.
These guys lend your guys more fire support. Since you save points in the tac squads by omitting heavy weapons in trade for more maneuverabilty these are the places to put the points for the big bang.

According to your opponent you should only use one weapon type in each squad.
Their role or the most present enemy should determine their gear.
against infantry: 4 heavy bolters
if he has also tanks: 4 rocket launchers
against tank heavy : 4 lascannons
against heavy infantry like Chaos : 4 plasmacannons (although I do not recommend these because the users tend to blow themselves up)
How many models per squad does one need?
5 is too few. The squad should be able to absorb some punishment.
6 is good, if you also want a razorback. This gives you extra weapons and a means of save transport.
if not then go for 8 or 10.
There is another good way of lending your fellow tac marines fire support:
Buy 10 with a vet.-sgt with stormbolter or combiweapon and give the marines 4 multimeltas or 2 multimeltas and 2 heavy bolters. Put them in a rhino and let them form the second frontline. 4 multimeltas will definitvely protect the tac squads with encounters like dreadnoughts or defilers.
Also you have plenty of bolters to add to the carnage in front. You see: there is no need being defensive with devastators.

Whirlwind

My favourite. It is cheap, it does not need sight, it has only S5 - yuk!? En contraire! This baby is able to make some big holes in infantry formation. Tau, orcs and tyranids especially like this one. If your opponent is protected well enough then use tho with the castellan option and lay minefields alll over the field. Even his tanks will be affected and hit in the rear armour with S6.
If you have 85 pts left, buy this one!

Vindicator

Best used in closed terrain where its close range and mean main weapon are its greatest trumps. No need to say much besides that it should get a machine spirit.
Good choice.

Land Raider

Generally the cream. The best 40k-tank but it costs like 2 regular ones. The best APC in the game but you have to think about justifying the points for this. I would not recommend using these in games lower than 1.500 points and always ask myself what the raider does that could not be done with a rhino and a predator (and the extra 100 pts...) The only reason for the raider is using terminators in turn one. They need either a reliable transport or you want to save a heavy support slot because the raider can be bought as transport option.
In fact: a SM-Army can field 8 Land Raiders on one plan.
(2 HQ transports, 3 Terminator transports, 3 regular heavy support choices)
The only thing interesting is, that a Land Raider can be assigned to any squad - even if there are no transport options.

I hope this concludes the explaining of the marines.

Sir_Banjo

2006-01-17, 07:30 AM

Buy as many troops as possible. Add other units for flavour but if you're not taking between 30+ tactical marines to a 1500 pt battle you'll find yourself fatally outnumbered.

Plus all those marines come with little extra bits that can be used to make improvised weapons. For instance, you can take the heavy bolter (or multimelta if your army allows it) from the landspeeder kit and give it to the tactical guy. Learn how to do this well and you will find yourself spending much less on the hobby.

And you can get more tactical marines for the same price as a squad of termis or jump-packers. Still you'll have to accept the fact that you are going to spend outrageous amounts of money on this hobby.

Zim-Zimma-117

2006-01-24, 10:23 PM

On the Heavy Support section, I have a LR Crusader, and it is great and murders hordes of people... but only if it survives the inevitable barrage of every AT weapon my enemy has. In hindsight, I would've just bought another predator or Whirlwind and more hobo Marines.

Ellisthion

2006-01-25, 10:46 AM

There's too many Space Marine players and too many SM players who just have a tactical, and assault, and a dreadnaught. So I came up with something cool, that can be made if you've made the mistake of buying the aforementioned Commander + Tactical squad:

Cheesy 1000 pt SM shooty infantry army (theoretical):

HQ:
1 Captain w/ storm bolter.

Troops:
5 Tacticals w/ 1 plasma cannon
5 Tacticals w/ 1 Hvy bolter (not enough points for plasma cannon)
5 Scouts with snipers
5 Scouts with snipers

Hvy Support:
5 Devastators, w/ 4 Plasma cannon
5 Devastators, w/ 4 Lascannon

Tactics: stand still, shoot stuff.

Yes, that's a 1000 pts army with 5 plasma cannon, 4 lascannon, and 10 sniper rifles. Ultimate anti-vanillia-marine. Haha.

Being Dark Angels in mandatory, because Dark Angels' Green is the best colour ever.

But I play Tau, so I have more than enough cheese anyway.

Dreistein

2006-01-25, 11:44 AM

Ikkitosen

2006-01-25, 12:18 PM

Indeed, your opponent would be wise to sneak around behind cover grabbing objectives and winning without ever engaging you. That sucks!!

BTW, I really like the idea of using a dev squad with 4 meltaguns as tac support. Very very cool idea :).

Ellisthion

2006-01-27, 08:02 AM

To counter this I would try to field :
1 Chaplain
3 Predator Annihilator w Sponson and the Rest goes into tac marines (6 w flamer) and Razorbacks w Laser

You have put too much points into equipment.

You cannot kill the tanks fast enough before you loos your heavy firepower and the squads are too small. 5 Plasma cannons mean many 50 pts models roasting themselves.

This is a good example for a very bad balanced army. And it will provide you no fun.

Firstly, the chance of a plasma cannon guy roasting himself is only 1/18. I'm happy with that.
Secondly, this is designed as an army to stop mass tacticals, which is all the rage at the moment. That many plasma cannon means that none of your aforementioned tacticals will live very long. Coupled with the snipers, the life expectancy of enemy infantry is about zero.

If the lascannon team gets killed, then the 5 plasma cannon and the 10 sniper rifles can still try to take down the preds. By spreading out deployment, a side armour shot is almost guarenteed. Especially if a scout squad infiltrated.

Having three predators would take up almost half the army's point cost. Besides, realistically speaking no one takes three preds in a 1000 pt.

No army excels at killing an army specifically designed to take it down. Are you telling me you regularly field a 1000 pt army with three predators and a chaplain? Well, I'll just take THAT down with my specially customised anti-predator Broadside battlesuit army... wait, no.

Dreistein

2006-01-27, 09:39 AM

It is just about that this kind of army (the anti-SM) sucks!
You do not mention the terrain, you do not mention any objectives and when it comes to missions then the tactical marines offer you more flexibility. Your army cannot move and sucks in CC. I think there is ever a possibility to outmaneuver you or isolate small portions of your taskforce if you spread out too much. When it comes to plasmas they mostly defy all odds - don´t ask why. I never saw a game where the statistics were true. If something gets into CC with you you are lost because the squads are too small.
I am no friend of anti-armies. They only work against one type of opponent and almost everytime only when the table is empty and there are more than 24" between the opponents.
Of course I would not field 3 predators in 1000 pts but maybe one with laserturret/bolters a whirlwind and many mechanized marines in either razorbacks or rhinos.
I want to win games with mission objectives, not the whack-your-head-game. Otherwise I would play chaos or eldar. I thought I have stated this before.
I have written down my philosophy and 15 years of gaming experience. Do not judge me for that. I do not force you to do sth. You have to make up your mind for yourself. I can only say, that tactical armies are "fluffier", than elite killer squadrons. And playing with and against them is more fun because your skills as tactician are used more often.

Ellisthion

2006-01-27, 09:53 PM

If something gets into CC with you you are lost because the squads are too small.
Um, well, duh. I play Wood Elves and Tau. It's called "shooting". You kill the other guy BEFORE he gets into melee with you. Try it.

This is not an "objective rush" army. It's a "kill the enemy, then go for the objective" army.

It's not just an anti-SM army, it's an anti-everything-with-an-actual-armour-save army. It'll work very well against Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Tyranid monster armies, and probably a few others I can't even think of. Yes, ok, it won't kill an Armoured Company, so what?

If you put your guys in transports, well, guess what? Plasma cannon can take down most transports! So can sniper rifles, if you're lucky. And you'll have to hop out eventually, wherein I'd get a full round of shooting before you can charge me, no matter where you are. And yes, I know that a Waveserpent army would own this one. Whatever. Waveserpents are the best transports in the game, by far.

Dreistein

2006-01-30, 07:03 AM

It is no use discussing this one any further. Play your own army like you wish to play. Luckily noone is forced to play against such an army. Where I play those kinds of armies do not find opponents. It is no fun playing against and simply noone I know plays against. This types make the whole game to a static dicechucking - fun factor near zero unless you like winning at whatever the cost. Face it, man: You field an army where there is not a single standard issue model. Everything is either character or upgraded. I would like to know what you did against an artillery-heavy army or a horde. This whole game works best, only if both players field a balanced army. And still I think only because the rulebook enables you to do something you do not have to. Guys who do this are called "regelficker" in german, which means that they are persons that bend and mess with the rules, even do anything to optimize their army to the max.
They are either tournament players - and responsible for less popularity - who wants crack-profis in a hobby game? - or simply people who do not get to play often against the same persons - because those do not want to play against power-munchkins.

I tried munching myself and well, it was no fun. It was easily won but I felt like a cheater. My opponent tried to make an army according to the armies´ background and was pummeled by powergaming. In fact, such experiences strongly encourage others to powergaming. And this is where spoiling the game in my opinion starts.

I think we should stop this what-if- talk. You have your own opinion - I have mine and adding more to this discussion without giving in of one side it will lead to flaming or something other unpleasant. I wrote about my experiences - try and write down your own and then we compare.

Casualgamer

2006-01-31, 12:04 AM

Whats this with Captains? Go 10-attack CQC Librarian that rerolls EVERYTHING.

ivanmckilliagin

2006-01-31, 05:58 PM

i can only come up with 9 cqc attacks... wheres the tenth one?

3(base)
1(teminator honors)
1(2x cc weps)
1(Charging)
3(that one power)

where's #10?

Casualgamer

2006-01-31, 08:49 PM

You can apply terminator honors more than one... I don't do it, but you can: they did it on one of the dudes in the codex... I think.

It hardly matters anyway. UBER high initiative so everythings dead by the time your done... and instant kills.

Murongo

2006-02-01, 09:42 PM

3000 points of Grey knights. Like 200+ games I haven't lost a SINGLE one. The only enemy I've faced sparingly are dark eldar.

40k is easy once you understand the basics.

Troops are worse than elites for their point cost. Often, heavy support is also more efficient. Fast attack, though, is commonly worse. HQs are worth it- but don't over-gear them. As a matter of fact, unless its an "empty" commander, like a force commander or an inquisitor- don't upgrade at all.

Assault weapons wtfpwn rapid fire weapons. A 13+" assault weapon will outshoot a rapid fire weapon any day. Learn the rapid fire rules like you know your ABCs, they are the most gimped weapons in the game once you know how to dance around them like a puddle. Heavy weapons are only appropriate for emplaced squads, they are wasted on sometimes mobile ones.

Don't mix weapons. If you have 2 squads, 2 flamers and 2 plasma guns, put the plasma both in one squad and the flame both in another. Versatile squads are FTL. Versatile armies are FTW.

Some GK only tactics:

Just because something seems to be dying easier dosen't mean you should aim for it. I think in 75% of all the games I play in, somebody shoots at my terminators and gets no results. Then they switch to shooting Storm Troopers and get some kills. At range the storm troopers are doing about equal damage as the terminators, so your average player will continue to shoot the storm troopers. Then melee range comes... my terminators must consistently count for 10x their points. Every. Single. Game.

In 4.0 Meatshielding is no longer a legitimate tactic. With a simple morale check enemies can shoot right over your ranks and hit the better guys in the back. I'll tell you how I shield my guys:

Begin by massing armored fist inducted squads, these are cheap vehicles with nice expendable IGmen inside. Put these in front of the expensive GK terminators. Move forward at the terminator's pace. If a vehicle dies hide the IG behind the Grey Knights, shrouding is a bitch to beat. If as a last resort the vehicles are dead and the enemies are shooting through your shrouding- rush the IG in front of the terminators to absorb some hits. If 1 in 3 terminators make it to the enemy lines- its over. Terminators will rip any other unit a new one in melee.

Basic GK suck. More than half the points of a terminator for less than half the damage and survivability. Therefore, their best use is to hug table corners with long-range weapons and bleed some enemy squads with psycannons. Rely on shrouding to avoid taking hits.

Oh yeah, and inquisitors suck too. People see their nice cheap cost and easy upgrade-ability and say "omfg awesome" but in the end, they are far too human. Strength 3 is unupgradable without taking Hammerhand, which forfeits having any kind of power/force weapon. The Grey Knight Grand Master is by far a better choice. My GKGM has 3 times met a greater daemon alone on the field and won.

Having fought a lot of other races heres some advice for each one.

Tau: Kroot are too often treated as a frontal defence. If the enemy reaches your Tau, you have failed. Kroot have but one purpose: anti-deepstrike. Keep them back, if the enemy reaches your lines your just as well off with the kroot right next to you anyway. Not to mention keeping them back keeps them out of enemy bombardment. Kroot are so misused its ridiculous.

Chaos: If against GK, don't bother with Daemons. They aren't even enemies to the GK, they are a minor time-waster. Khorne Berserkers are much harder to beat with GK.

'Nids: Put your bosses up front! Far too often people hide them behind hordes of little guys, trust me, thats a bad idea! The way I see it, bosses break the enemies defences by eliminating something tough like an enemy boss or tank or heavy weapon squad. Basic troops can then rush in in their wake and wreck the softer units. Rather than rushing with the little guys, getting pounded and when the big guy gets there its too little too late.

Orks: Shoot man, I know your a melee army but too many ork players forget that you CAN shoot too. And trust me, there are certain units you are going to want to shoot. 'Nids, for example.

Necrons: The only army who's basic troops are possibly better than the elites. Necron warriors are... wow... I'm guessing every necron player already knows this. I'm not a fan of monoliths, they usually don't pay for themselves. And watch for the phase out. I win a good 2/3 of my necron fights with phase out.

Eldar: People underestimate speed in 40k. Be sure to keep some quick guys in reserve, once the enemy front troops are engaged, sneak around and snipe out the support. Lots of eldar like to use the pop-out-shoot-hide tactic, which seems to be working great until the enemy gets too close, then... not so much. It just dosen't kill them fast enough, abandon that tactic.

Oh and dark reapers=YOUR FRIEND.

IG: What do you call a lasgun with a laser pointer?
TWIN LINKED HAHAHA.
But seriously, the Imperial ****s are so incredibly expendable, just try to stick to cover and use lots of rocket launchers. Those things are the shizno.

Just some general dirty tricks:

Say you want to kill an enemy squad leader. Take a vehicle and park it in front of the enemy squad, obscuring your troop's LOS of the enemy squad except for the squad leader- the enemy is forced to remove the squad leader as their first casualty.

If you take turns stacking terrain, make an enclosed area, put some mortar-style weaps in there. These will be essentially invincible bombardment. Works best with IG.

Imrix.

2006-02-03, 10:42 PM

First off: Heavy and special weapons belong in tac squads. Reasoning? You put 'em in a Devastator squad, it's going to die. Seriously, I play Necrons and if I saw that squad I would basically just aim something nasty at it. Like 15 S 6 AP4 shots. You WILL fail armour saves.

On a point-for-point ratio, it's also cheaper. A tactical squad will get the weaponry for less cost, and can turn all guns on certain targets. I know, it seems like a waste to fire lascannon and seven-odd boltguns at a group of orks, but it's more of a waste when you're prized Devastator squad gets slaughtered by around 2nd turn.

In short, Marines don't have the numbers to rely on small-arms fire, that is the forte of the Sisters of Battle (20 sisters a squad, each one with a boltgun, you better start praying when they get into rapid fire range. And they will if the player makes good use of Acts of Faith)

Speaking of Rapid Fire weapons, Murongo are you high or something? Trying to avoid them doesn't work, you effectively have to stay out of a 36" wide circle, which is a long way to avoid (6" movement, 12" range in a sphere = 36"). Rapid-fire weapons are actually pretty decent. If they weren't, Necrons would be rather shafted.

Now, back to SM. First: Plasma Cannons suck. They seem great, but under the new Blast rules, are, frankly, awful. A decent player will spred his troops out, effectively reducing you to a heavy1 weapon, which cost you 35 points. Better option? Normal Plasma Guns. Shock! Awe! Actually NOT putting heavy weapons on a Dev squad.

Well, that's four plasma shots right there, and they only overheat one sixth of the time. Even then, 3+ save. And they don't cost nearly as much.

Now then, Dreadnoughts: The reason people use them? They're cheap. For example, you're playing orks, and you're being charged by a twenty-thirty strong mob of orks that you have let escape fire. They then slam into a Dreadnought. That's 180-270 points of orks that won't do anything for the rest of the game, versus one 100 dreadnought. Not a bad trade-off, aye? Also, remember the outnumbering rule. If it wins combat, it counts as twenty models. For the most part, that means the enemy tests morale at -4 because of that, which is not to be sniffed at, probably runs away, to be shot/run down/ignored.

Land Raiders: The normal LR is not worth it, you waste points if you sit and shoot (Transport space isn't free you know) and if you charge foreward, you waste valuable lascannon shots. What's better, is the good new (By fluff at least) Crusader. Capable of charging forward, firing everything, unloading a full-kitted out combat squad (Ultra-smurf Honour Guard anyone?) into the enemy, then maintaining a solid firebase that's a tough nut to crack. Expensive as solid gold, but worth it for the sheer carnage.

As for the rest...

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=72661
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=59809

Chew on those for a while, they'll teach more than I can.

EDIT: Oh, and CasualGamer? No, you can't take Terminator honours more than once. That would just be silly. Terminator Honours are an item of Wargear, you can never take a specific piece of Wargear more than once unless specifically noted.

Read your frikkin' codex!

ivanmckilliagin

2006-02-04, 04:51 PM

yeh, an @casualgamer, you can only manifest one librarian power a turn... so no WW of death w/ you cc hq. sry.

Imrix.

2006-02-04, 08:05 PM

Murongo

2006-02-05, 01:34 PM

That's another good point. You have to choose between +D3 attacks, one instant kill (One mind you) and rerolling everything. It also gets hellishly expensive. To my mind, the bundle would cost around 200 points.

Unless you're playing Chaos, that's way too much. Chaos get Gifts, good wargear, and Deamon weapons. If you kit a lord out to the nines he's worth it, for the sheer fact that he'll pile up body after body.

As an example: Chaos Khornate lord with Mark of Khorne, Berzerker Glaive, Terminator armour, Deamonic Mutation, Deamonic Strength, Feel No Pain. Optional Deamonic Essence, Deamonic Resilience, and/or Rage of Khorne.

This results in a tastily resilient character, who gets anywhere between 10 and 12 attacks on the charge, depending on whether he has RoK or not. All of these attacks ignore Armour Saves, and hit at Strength 5.

That's going to SLAUGHTER a full squad of near anything in a turn or two, and can be Deep Striked behind cover to come around a corner for a charge (Terminator Armour.

It's also fairly fast, 6" move, D6 Blood Rage, and a 6" charge is a possible 18" movement, and you generally start off about 24" apart, so even if you don't Deep Strike, you have a possible 2nd turn charge.

Here's the kicker: Unless the enemy specifically asks, you don't have to tell them he's a viable target for being shot. All you need now is some creative miodelling for the armour, and to stick him close to a squad, close enough it seems he's a part of it. Your enemy thinks he's a part of the squad, shoots the squad when all the while, they could be shooting him.

10 is the highest you can have in a stat. The only exception is S12 daemon princes and it specifically says you can do that.

And I meant what i said about rapid fire weapons. Take storm bolters vs normal bolters for example. Troops with a nice assault storm bolter can dance outside of rapid fire range easily and pound off 2 shots each shooting phase. The suckers with the rapid fire have to either stand still and fire 1 shot, or move and fire none. Rapid fire weapons suck.

It only kinda works for necron because they generally just try to camp in cover anyway, and because their guns are powerful, one might consider rushing that cover, which would willfully PUT you into rapid fire range. Its terrible for marines though, who often want to charge.

Casualgamer

2006-02-05, 02:05 PM

XD whoops didn't see that.

Imrix.

2006-02-06, 07:21 AM

Murongo, that would be why assault weapons are more expensive. Besides, it all depends on the weapon involved, if you compared a Storm Bolter to a Boltgun, i'd take the Storm Bolter, for the sheer fact it's better, and it's meant to be better.

If, on the other hand, you compared a Storm Bolter and a Plasma Gun, things get different. Just because you find your Storm Bolters outdo the marines with boltguns, does not mean Assault weapons are better.

Murongo

2006-02-07, 07:00 PM

I find the same thing with necron and tau, the two biggest gun races in the game. Stay 19" or more away with storm bolters and you can outshoot the gunniest troops there are.

SilverElf4

2006-02-08, 04:07 PM

And I wholeheartedly disagree with with spreading your heavy weapons out, that's a good way to pin down your whole army and not get rid of enemy armor.

I'm sure you can concentrate firepower on a devastator squard/broadside team/etc, but it will take a couple of turns for them to go down and by then their intended purpose should be accomplished. Not to mention the fact that you just left the rest of the enemy army free to manuever, shoot, and flank without fear of retaliation.

And as Dreistein has pointed out numerous times before, unless you are playing backyard style, you have to adjust for objective games. I usually can't afford to pin down more than one unit to keep the enemies armor off my back...

Dreistein

2006-02-09, 06:54 AM

The fact about the specialst teams is, that they are able to take out armour and absorb some punishment FROM ARMOUR. They have cover so extra saves and can raise their number in case of devs to have as imrix told before: extra-lives for the heavy weapons.

And there is their greatest vulnerability:
They can be mowed down by infantry. They can survive an ordnance weapon when in good cover while the tank is out of game after a good shot, but infantry negates this.
There is so much fire raining down on them that they have to rely on their normal armour save and will fail because of oversaturation of their ability to absorb heavy calibre weaponry.
This is the point when small arms outdo heavy weapons.
If a hit from a heavy weapon is saved by cover for instance it is gone. For the same points you get multiple chances of wounding the enemy with small arms. They will fail more often.

That is why I always emphasize on target priority.
Use your infantry to keep away the opponents infantry.
Otherwise these will shoot you expensive multi-heavy units.
You will find out that you will need more basic infantry when you use special teams to provide them covering fire so that they can do their job. Also I thank Silverelf4 for pointing out the important fact of maneuverability in games with special rules. These games should be the rule - not the exception.

If playing backyard go back and ask your friends about cheesehead-combos and play with terminator/LR armies but do not ask me again. I want to help out with the game as it is intended.TACTICAL/STRATEGICAL boardgame - not whack-the-mon-keigh.

Imrix.

2006-02-09, 10:35 AM

See, the thing is, it doesn't really work. Let's take an example shall we? Necrons. As a Necron player, I am, wholeheartedly, not scared of Boltguns. Assuming it's not rapid fire (Which as tactically sound. Consider, the firefight starts at high range, and neither side is willing to advance, if they do, the enemy afvances, and rapid fires, giving them a marked advantage.), then do the math.

Ten boltguns: Statistically speaking, between 2-4 misses. 3-4 wounds. Statistically, I will fail 1-2 armour saves, which then has a 50/50 chaance of getting back up. So going by the math, you may permanantly kill one model with small arms fire. That is, frankly, pathetic.

Now, if that squad has say... a Plasma Gun in it, which does not hamper it's movement, it changes.

Perhaps heavy weaponry is not for tactical squads, but i'd say special weaponry definatley is. Of course, then you get into the Cleanse and Purify trait, and having a pair of special weapons in squads.

As for Murongo: Yeah, so you stay out of range of the rapid-fire weapons. Whoop-te-do. You are now letting your opponant dictate YOUR actions, which is never good. s/he likely outnumbers you because you loaded up on expensive assault weapons. That means they can chase you with more than one squad, and head you off, possibly with both. There is only so much space on a 4x4 board you know.

Also I am coming to believe more and more that you have no idea what you are talking about. Stay 19" away from Tau? Yeah, then you face the barrage of S 5 death . They get two and a have of those for every Grey Knight you get. Who do I back, if given the choice between 10 Grey Knights, or 25 Fire Warriors, given the fact that they start off at range? The Tau. If they know their fighting Grey Knights (Some people do tweak their army list before battle you know), they'll have Blacksun Filters on the Shas'ui's, and you face a barrage of shots.

Going by the math, that's 2-3 losses, per turn. Assuming he doesn't move any closer, that's three-four turns of that, which means 6-12 losses. Anywhere between half, and the whole squad. And that's not counting the fact that they will likely bring in 'suits. But enough about Tau.

I'm just pointing out Drestein, that if you want to teach the newbies, you have to show them both sides of the argument, if you won't I will. Otherwise, they blindly stick to your tactics, and don't know about the advantages of the flipside.

And I still say that maybe it's not for all armies, but there are some armies for whom heavy weapons belong on the troops choices. Imperial Guard for example.

Dreistein

2006-02-09, 10:43 AM

For IG it works well, that is correct. It greatly fits the move-by-platoon-tactic.
I would just keep out AT-weaponry in tac-squads. Hvy. Bolters, autocannons and even rocketlaunchers are fine because they all have a decent ability to hurt infantry.

I think I mentioned this in the IG thread, but thanks, Imrix.

Necrons are a special case bercause they do not have such a thing like heavy weapons in troops. AND they have this pesky resurrection ability that makes them better than the marines. Your math is correct, but a marine player that goes head-on with the necrons in firefights a bad player. Necrons are slightly better than marines in that so this is the only case where my mostly general theories fail. When playing against necrons take lots of rocket launchers, plasmaguns and whirlwinds and/or Land Speeders with assault cannons

But still:
For marines I found out that it generally works well, when the marines move and leave the heavies to the devastators and tanks - they do not have a backup squad to cover them like in IG-platoons.

Again: thank You, Imrix for the added advice.

SilverElf4

2006-02-09, 11:52 AM

Yeah, I agree with the clarification Imrix, I have seen lots of squads benefit from having special weapons strewn through their baseline squads.

As for the Tau...well as a Tau player I dare you to sit 19" from me. ;D

Murongo

2006-02-09, 01:00 PM

Imrix.

2006-02-11, 08:43 PM

Murongo

2006-02-12, 01:56 PM

"That is absolutely and completely wrong. Many operate under the misconception that rapid fire weapons fire twice up to half their range. This comes from the fact that bolters have 24" and they are the stereotypical rapid fire weapon. ALL rapid fire weapons can fire once up to max range and twice up to 12. Its not twice up to half, its twice up to 12, dosen't matter if the weapon has 78" range."

I'm aware of that. Pulse rifles have a 30" max range, they don't NEED to come into Rapid-fire range. All they need to do is kick back and watch you cower out of charge range.

" Black sun filter helps against night fight, shrouding specifically states that things that help against night fight do not effect shrouding. "

Yet the Universal Special rule Acute Senses does? They both affect the Nightfight rules, so why should one affect it, and not the other? And yes, I DO know what i'm talking about. It was FAQ'ed.

EDIT: Huh, weird, I just checked the FAQ, and I was wrong. Yet, there is another FAQ that confirms what I said. How very odd. Regardless, i am forced to (grudgingly) concede this point.

"Also, 25 firewarriors is much more points than 10 GK. And I'm not going to charge infantry against tau anyway. GK can practically deepstrike their entire army, its a great tactic against tau. "

Grey Knight: 25 points. Thus, 10 Grey knights = 250 points (Not counting the obligatory Justicar.)

Fire Warrior: 10 points. Thus, 25 Fire Warriors = 250 points. Seriously, do you have any idea what you are on about?

So yeah, you can deepstrike a large chunk of your army. I hope you're happy, now watch as you splat in, can't move, can't charge, shoot, probably cause surprisingly little damage, and then the mass rapid-fire death of the Tau shooting blats you over the walls. Seriously, the amount of shots Tau can pump out that can obliterate GK is scary at close range. You have Terminators? Fine, they have Fireknife suits. Relatively inexpensive, and a pair of S6 AP 2 shots, or even worse if they know who they are fighting, twin-linkeding that, even worse.

Plus, I don't care how tough you are, even if you are terminators, if somebody hands you 10-20 dice for your Armour Saves, you WILL fail some, assuming the law of averages isn't taking a vacation.

"Also you are dictating your enemy's actions, not the other way around. If you force your enemy between 2 choices, neither of them good, while you rittle them full of rounds, your controlling them. Not the other way around."

Perhaps, but the fact remains that you are LETTING your opponant dictate your actions. A situation like that isn't set, you should be thinking ahead, spotting it before it happens and avoiding it.

Dreistein: Thank you for the thank you's, i'm working on a Necron tactica btw, and I hope you don't mind if i stick around to beat Murongo down. If you want though, I'll take it to PM's.

And does anybody know how to do that quotes thing?

Stick around to beat murongo? you just conceded every point I made. The only thing you continued to argue was the points thing, which you are absolutely wrong about. I have a tau codex right here. Firewarriors are 12 points. GG.

And the deep strike comments were just ridiculous, you'd have to be an idiot to deep strike in open view. Also lets look at "the laws of probaility":

GK Terminator is 46 points. Firewarrior is 12. Its unfair to the GK by a couple points but thats roughly 4 firewarriors per terminator.

Tau fire, 1/2 miss 2 hit.
2/3 Wound (3+) 1.3 wound
5/6 save (.2 die)

So chances are in an equal point barrage, no terminators die. Random chance will save the tau of course, and about 1/5 will die if my math is right.

Now lets watch the terminator shoot back.
3/4 hit (1.5 hit)
Half wound (.75)
Half save (.28 die)

So it seems to me I only lose 1/5 of my guys, they lose 1/4 of theirs per shot. By the time I charge I've now lost 1/5 of my men per shot. Meanwhile they have lost a quarter of theirs per shot. Of course mine are worth more points so the tau come out a little ahead. Not enough to destroy me, however.

Now, lets pit, shall we say, 3 GK terminators against 12 firewarriors (the firewarriors have 6 more points) in melee.

Terminators have higher initiative. I would have charged but lets be nice and say I didn't.

Under the new rules GK terminators get 3 attacks. 2/3 hit so 6 hit. 5/6 wound so 5 wound. No saves. 5 dead tau.

Assuming the tau all get to retaliate, and pass their morale check, both of which are unlikely, they now get 7 attacks. 1/3 hit so 2.3, 1/3 wound so .75 wound. 5/6 save so .127 die. Unless you have 8 firewarriors, which you don't you have 7, math states that the GK take no casualties. Ever.

Math is my on my side, tactics are on my side, you were wrong about the rules, I pretty much trounced any argument you had.

Imrix.

2006-02-12, 10:38 PM

"Stick around to beat murongo? you just conceded every point I made. The only thing you continued to argue was the points thing, which you are absolutely wrong about. I have a tau codex right here. Firewarriors are 12 points. GG."

I don't know what Codex you are looking at mate, but I have the page open in front of me, and it says 10 points. The maximum numbers you can have in a squad is twelve. That's the only time the number twelve crops up in the entry.

As for deep-striking: You try and deep-strike out of sight, in a point where you can get a charge next turn, okay? It's pretty much not possible. Enemy moves oput of charge range, sets up countermeasures. You just messed yourself over, badly. You move, get off the shots, and are promptly blatted in return. You also handed the Tau 'suits a turn to also blat you.

The comparison between Tau Fire Warriors and Grey Knight Terminators is also mornic, you are comparing basic troops with elites. I was comparing basic troops with basic troops (Fire Warriors with 'average' Grey Knights). It's about as sensible as trrying to compare Space Marine tactical squads with a DREADNOUGHT.

For a better comparison, let's compare a Tau Crisis suit team with some Grey Knight Terminators, say the Tau have twin-linked Plasma Guns each, and the rest doesn't matter they work out at around 59 points each at minimum-cost wargear, so two would be 118.

We'll work the Termies out at a group of three, which is about the closest, and comes to 138 points. The Termies have an advantage by 20 points, a significant difference.

Assuming the battle takes place on an open field, the Crisis suits have two Plasma shots, each with effectively a 75% chance to hit (Not exact, but you get the idea). Each shot has a 5/6 chance of wounding, and the Termies have a 2/6 chance of saving, which if they fail, they die.

The Termies, on the other hand, get six shots, which works out to statistically four hits, and two wounds. The Crisis Suits might save both, but more likely will save one. The Crisis suits are still at full effectiveness.

The Termies will likely never catch the Crisis suits in CC, as the Crisis suits will make use of Jetpacks to hop out of range constantly. This brings us to the big 'but'.

It won't be a straight fight. The Crisis suits will move out of terrain, shoot, and then hop behind terrain again, as needed. The Termies cannot do this.

Thus, a comparison between Elite troops turns up in Tau favour, just as a comparison between basic troops turns up in Tau favour. I did not factor in the Shrouding, as it happens, so I shall do so now and note that youd did not.

Statistically, the most likely result to come up is seven (3 possible results), which multipled times three, as per the Nightfight rules, results in 21, which is only three inches below the Crisis suits maximum range, an easily handled matter.

I appear to have won (or at least stalemated you on) the argument of actions. You have certainly won the Shrouding argument, so right now we are even.

SilverElf4

2006-02-13, 04:22 AM

I don't know what Codex you are looking at mate, but I have the page open in front of me, and it says 10 points. The maximum numbers you can have in a squad is twelve. That's the only time the number twelve crops up in the entry.

Seconded. I've been playing Tau since they were released, and Fire Warriors cost ten points and have always cost ten points. Page 26 for those of you keeping score at home.

As for the rest, well, all of your statistics are made up on specific situations, so I'm not sure I would rely on any of them. So I won't use logic or deduction or any of that, I will just say (again) that the original assertion that armies are safe by standing 19" away from Tau Fire Warriors is wishful thinking at best, *based on my experience as a Tau player*. Tau aren't invincible and GK's are tough opponents, so alot in that match rests on the skills of the given players, at least as much if not significantly more than the statistical analysis of the two armies...

ETA: I should note that when I say "your" I mean both of you, not just one or the other of you. :)

Murongo

2006-02-13, 01:42 PM

Ah, oh well, I guess I'm wrong.

Imrix.

2006-02-14, 06:36 AM

*Sighs of relief* Finally, that's over with. Right Drestein, have your thread back...

Dreistein

2006-02-14, 07:15 AM

I think it is o.k. to debate over statistics. But they have only one use:
You can use them very well in CC and for shooting it simply depends on the situation. And of course you have to comare equals. Not elites or HQs with troops.

ivanmckilliagin

2006-02-14, 05:23 PM

...the Termies have a 2/6 chance of saving, which if they fail, they die. ...

actually, with the plasma rifles having AP2, termies dont get an armor save. splitting hairs of a dead horse, but the fact remains...

Imrix.

2006-02-14, 09:16 PM

Actually, I meant the Invulnerable save, which is 5+. Thus, they have two chances in six to save.

Zim-Zimma-117

2006-02-14, 10:13 PM

"Plus, I don't care how tough you are, even if you are terminators, if somebody hands you 10-20 dice for your Armour Saves, you WILL fail some, assuming the law of averages isn't taking a vacation."

While I wholeheartedly agree w/ this statement, I saw the laws of averages take a vacation when by 6 Deathwing Terminators charged and got caught in rapid fire range (please cut me some slack, this was the second game I'd ever played against an experienced vet.) of a full platoon of Guard infantry. close to 200 shots fired, about 120 hit, about 40 wound, and I rolled not a single one. My friend sat staring at the dice for about 10 minutes and we still laugh about it today.

KrootCanadian

2007-03-25, 01:59 AM

I chose which army to use based on the ideals of the army, the story that the writers chose, and the type of fighting the army deals. Now i myself am not one for being Epic, so the tau were perfect for that. I am a man of efficiency, the tau were perfect for that. Distance is good, with a good melee if in close range, tau again. Everything about the tau was great, from the stories of skill and honor, to efficiency and the greater good. The space Marines however, digust me. The Tau have somewhat of a religion and stick to it well without becoming overboard. The Space Marines have an Emperor that says there is no religion and then calls himself the emperor God, hypocrite. The Space Marines are used WAY TOO MUCH. There is no diversity, they have different names for groups Shoop-de-Woop! I don't like humans in games and the other races just look all around much cooler in comparison. Their Ideal is shoot and kill, whoever gets in their way, and they are on a massive EGO TRIP.....NO ALLIES. The Tau focus on expanding their empire by means of alliance or force by retaliation. MAnkind expands by brawn and size. There are more humans than orks for christ sake! The Space Marines SUCK! THeir best Ground Unit is the Dreadnought, BOOO!! Then they just use tons of tanks when they could easily simplify it to one tank or two, NOO WE NEED 6!! I hate everything about the Space Marines. Stories suck, society sucks, army sucks, they have nooomf about them, no diversity and everyone plays them (mostly N3wbs). I wish people would play more armies like the Tyranids and the tau, maybe even the necrons and wipe the Space Marines out of the Galaxy. Then the designers can come up with a better army to use with more girth and better society and army, something unique like Underground specialty or Far Ranged Explosives Specialties, SOMETHING that is not just strong guys with guns trying to look cool....and failing :smallfurious:

Bryn

2007-03-25, 10:17 AM

First of all, Thread Necromancy is frowned upon. This thread is more than a year old. However, as a player of Imperial Guard and Space Marines, I wish to debate your rant on Space Marines. I hope I do not seem rude at any point in this post, but I disagree with your statements.

I chose which army to use based on the ideals of the army, the story that the writers chose, and the type of fighting the army deals. Now i myself am not one for being Epic, so the tau were perfect for that. I am a man of efficiency, the tau were perfect for that. Distance is good, with a good melee if in close range, tau again. Everything about the tau was great, from the stories of skill and honor, to efficiency and the greater good.
Perfectly reasonable, and I respect your choice...

The space Marines however, digust me. The Tau have somewhat of a religion and stick to it well without becoming overboard. The Space Marines have an Emperor that says there is no religion and then calls himself the emperor God, hypocrite.
I'm afraid this is wrong in a variety of ways. Firstly, you are mistaken in mixing the Imperium's beliefs with those of the Emperor. The Emperor was far less intolerant than the Imperium that was to form 10000 years later, IIRC - although he made a variety of mistakes, he was willing to talk to the Eldar for example. The Imperium, 10000 years later is a far different beast from the Emperor. Indeed, the Emperor is now for all intents and purposes a vegetable.

Secondly, please tell me where you got the 'No religion' thing from. The Imperium is entirely focussed on one vast religion, in which the Emperor is indeed a god. They never claimed that there is no religion - instead, they (being, admittedly, prejudiced and xenophobic - as well they might be, in a galaxy where almost everyone really is out to destroy them*) consider all religions other than the Cult Imperialis void and even heretical (how can you have heretics with no religion?).

They are by no means 'good': they are prejudiced and xenophobic, and often consider the ends to justify the means, and millions toil in hive cities in which light will never be seen under the clouds of pollution and life is a bleak and oppressive nightmare (although equally there are those who live in almost paradise on a safe agri-world), but they are not hypocritical.

The Space Marines are used WAY TOO MUCH. There is no diversity, they have different names for groups Shoop-de-Woop!
I agree entirely about Space Marines being used way too much, and I am not proud of the fact that I have 2300 or so points of Space Marines. I don't know about no diversity though: the Space Marine list is so general that it can encompass a great variety of armies from fast moving Assault Marine/Landspeeders to stationary heavy-weapon filled armies with many tanks. They can be 'swarms' of troops (one Space Marine army can go up to 180-something troops), although to a far lesser degree than 'swarm' armies like Imperial Guard or Tyranids, or they can be hard-hitting Terminators.

However, many of these armies do not see play, and you are very right in saying that Space Marines are tiresome as opponents.

I don't like humans in games and the other races just look all around much cooler in comparison.
A matter of opinion, I happen to disagree with that, but there is no point arguing it.

Their Ideal is shoot and kill, whoever gets in their way, and they are on a massive EGO TRIP.....NO ALLIES.
In some ways, you are right. But the Space Marines do not just exist for indiscriminate killing. They serve to protect the Imperium from the myriad horrors that surround it. They try to expand the Imperium's borders, and destroy what they deem heretical and wrong before it kills millions of innocent Imperial civilians. That could certainly be considered merely shooting and killing, but it is not killing for killing's sake: the Space Marines represent part of the military side of the far larger Imperium.

Many Space Marine chapters have their own objectives and secrets; others have a histroy of honour and chivalry that they aim to uphold.

The Tau focus on expanding their empire by means of alliance or force by retaliation.
Yep.

MAnkind expands by brawn and size.
...or by finesse: rapid strikes in drop pods or Imperial Guard drop troops or the use of assassins. In any case, I can't see how that is a point against the Imperium: their methods are dissimilar to those of the Tau in some cases, but what's wrong with that? Perhaps I want to field a massive army of Imperial Guardsman rather than a small group of fast, hard-hitting units?

There are more humans than orks for christ sake![/quote[
What's that got to do with Space Marines? In any case, AFAIK it isn't true. IIRC, Armageddon had more Orks than humans. Examining the back of the Ork codex reveals Orks spread throughout the galaxy, with heavy concentration of Ork worlds almost everywhere but the Segmentum Solar. To quote the first page of the Ork codex: [quote=Ork CodexIn terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition[/quote]

The Space Marines SUCK!We're all entitled to our opinions, but I do not share this one.

THeir best Ground Unit is the Dreadnought, BOOO!! Then they just use tons of tanks when they could easily simplify it to one tank or two, NOO WE NEED 6!!How is the Dreadnought the best ground unit? All tanks qualify as ground units: the Land Raider is one of the best armoured tanks short of Forge World super-heavy tanks (although still pretty killable), and the Tau Empire have their fair share of tanks too. The Imperial Guard have far more tanks (http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/ac%2Dvehicles/1/), although they are on the same side as the Space Marines.
In any case, how is the number of tanks they have an argument against them? You will only ever see three of the 'big' tanks in a normal sized game, if that. Each tank has its own specialisation: there don't need to be any more, but how have they got too many?

I hate everything about the Space Marines. Stories suck,Matter of opinion!

society sucks,Matter of an opinion! I find it fascninating: I'd hate to live there, but it's a great and characterful setting for the games and fiction.

army sucks,Power-wise, they are balanced if not downright better than other armies. They have a detailed list with lots of room for modification (doctrines, many types of unit), and although often seeing the same army can get a bit bland, it doesn't mean the actual army is bad.

they have nooomf about them,I'm not sure quite what is meant by this. Both fluff and game-wise, they have plenty of 'oomf', if it means power. I am curious to know - would you explain?

no diversityWell, you've already seen my argument against this. In any case, you argue against the presence of 6 tanks, then complain about diversity? :smallconfused: Unless you mean the tanks are all similar...

and everyone plays them (mostly N3wbs).I agree, seeing Space Marines every game can get repetitive and tedious. However, hating something because it's popular does not seem reasonable, and the hobby needs new players (since the old don't last forever).

I wish people would play more armies like the Tyranids and the tau, maybe even the necronsAgreed.

and wipe the Space Marines out of the Galaxy.Not agreed. The Space Marines, while they can be repetitive, are one of the things that make 40k what it is instead of 'generic sci-fi no. 12'.

You will not be able to make the designer write the SMs out by not buying them, and certainly not by winning battles against them.

Then the designers can come up with a better army to use with more girth and better society and army,A massive amount of fluff regards Space Marines and the Imperium, and they are one of the most popular armies. This means a lot of money comes from Space Marines. If GW were to drop Space Marines, they would be in a dire situation indeed.

Consider the Squats: they weren't even popular in their day, but even now they're remembered. If GW did the same to Space Marines... well, bye bye 40k.

I have already argued against your belief that Space Marines have a bad society and army. The idea that they do not have 'girth' (presumably meaning depth of fluff) cannot be considered true. The amount of detail on Space Marines, the background, the stories, the characterful regiments that are not just Ultramarines-in-disguise... I would say Space Marines have girth.

Unless you mean you want obese Space Marines... :smalleek: :smalltongue:

something unique like Underground specialtyThis can be done already. Play Cities of Death and take the Sewer rats stratagem. Play Imperial Guard with the Drop Troops doctrine and say that they are a burrowing regiment. Play Space Marines, use drop pods, and call them burrowing attack vehicles. Play Tau and claim that your deep striking aircraft (which they might or might not be able to do, I don't know enough about Tau) are due to them drilling their way underground using advanced Tau technology. Play Orks with a lotted Drop Pod and call it an Orkish burrowing vehicle. I could go on... just find a way to use the Deep Strike rules and call it a burrowing vehicle. I wouldn't have qualms with it, and hopefully, a good opponent wouldn't either.

or Far Ranged Explosives Specialties,If you wanted to, you play an Armoured Company specialising in artillery. Earthshaker Cannon: 120" or G120"-240" range, and a pie plate on the end. Battle Cannon: 72" range, stronger pie plate.

SOMETHING that is not just strong guys with guns trying to look cool....and failing :smallfurious:
Don't get me wrong, new armies are nice. To bring in the Demiurg, Hrud, or whatever would be interesting. Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii (Tech Guard), non-Chaos renegades, or whatever would be fun too on the human side of things.

Hopefully, I did not come across as uncivil in that post. If you disagree on any points, feel free to say.