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Cero Oscura
2010-11-10, 06:45 PM
I have a player wanting to maximize his Call Lightning. It lets him summon around 10 bolts, 1 per turn after casting it with no need to recast the spell.

He believes that since no new spell has been cast except for the original maximized Call Lightning, each bolt called from this storm is therefore maximized, and for the life of me I can't think of a way to stop this madness.

Ideas?

dsmiles
2010-11-10, 06:48 PM
Ideas?

Wow. I've never seen it done, but I believe he's right...:smalleek:

ericgrau
2010-11-10, 06:48 PM
Since it is a standard action to call each bolt that takes away from other actions he might do while the damage of each bolt is nothing special compared to other things he might do.

It's basically a way for him to last longer without running out of spells at the expense of short term effectiveness. He really could be doing more damage with other spells. It's fair. If he's not running out of spells anyway the idea is actually a bit weak. I mean an equal level fighter can usually do more damage and he can keep it up all day long.

Urpriest
2010-11-10, 06:49 PM
Maximize is very specific: all random variables are maximized. This means all damage for the entirety of the spell. There are much more game-breaking things to do than blast people with lightning bolts. Let him do it: remember he's losing the chance to cast a spell three levels higher, which could also do lots of damage (or something more powerful).

AslanCross
2010-11-10, 06:50 PM
I assume he is getting 10 bolts from being caster level 10 or higher, correct? It's not that bad, let him do it. Since it is a standard action to call each bolt that takes away from other actions he might do while the damage of each bolt is nothing special compared to other things he might do.

This is true. I don't think it's that bad.

This might mean, however, that it's time to break out the blue dragons and other electricity-immune creatures.

Logalmier
2010-11-10, 06:59 PM
This is true. I don't think it's that bad.

This might mean, however, that it's time to break out the blue dragons and other electricity-immune creatures.

Then again, if you start throwing nothing but electricity-immune creatures, the player will probably figure out what's going on.

Not saying it's a bad idea, but everything in moderation...

ericgrau
2010-11-10, 07:00 PM
Personally I think it's a bit implausible and annoying to send monsters that specifically negate the PCs. Unless the monster has foreknowledge of the PCs, or by pure luck. If anything you send tougher monsters in general, but really this player's strategy isn't that strong.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-10, 07:05 PM
Um... I have to say, I'm not really seeing why 18 points of damage (save for half) a round is really anything to be worried about, even at 5th level. Hell, the average barbarian ought to be doing that sort of damage with his weapon every round at 5th level...

If he's actually having to use Maximise Spell, not Sudden or a rod, then, I have to say...Really? 18 damage per round for ten rounds with a 6th level spell slot?! And you're concerned?! If he's wasting his slots on doing that, you should be thankful he's not doing anything, y'know, useful with his spells...!

Hell, if longevity that's what he wants it for, he'd actually do more damage on average by replacing Maximise Spell with a suitable reserve feat for 6D6 a round...

Don't worry about it, really, really, don't.

AslanCross
2010-11-10, 07:05 PM
Yes, everything in moderation. I'm not a fan of punishing players, and that's not what I was recommending. That's why I did say this might mean and not "Oh, rain on his parade and send a horde of demons on him to punish him for finding a viable tactic!"

Just send him enough to keep him guessing so that it doesn't become his default tactic in every single encounter. My mentality is 'Yes, that's impressive, but it won't always work.'

Fizban
2010-11-10, 08:03 PM
I myself would use Maximized Empowered Searing Darkfire with a Ring of Mystic Fire and Gloves of the Balanced Hand.

Cero Oscura
2010-11-10, 10:04 PM
Well, a few clarifications:

This is supposedly an unoptimized campaign, so such shenanigans are worrisome to me. I have a Lasher playing, for goodness sakes. I fear this will outshine the efforts of other party members. And yes, this is via sudden maximize, so no higher spell slot needed.

Secondly, he plans to branch this strategy out into Call Lightning storm, which is 5d6. Lastly, he plans to use this strategy mainly in stormy weather, bumping it up to 5d10's, while casting from a small wild shape form to make finding him harder. Even with reflex, that's 25 guaranteed damage a round, barring evasion, with no continued spell expenditure over a large range. I don't think he'll ever enter combat again.

Marnath
2010-11-10, 10:19 PM
Well, a few clarifications:

This is supposedly an unoptimized campaign, so such shenanigans are worrisome to me. I have a Lasher playing, for goodness sakes. I fear this will outshine the efforts of other party members. And yes, this is via sudden maximize, so no higher spell slot needed.

Secondly, he plans to branch this strategy out into Call Lightning storm, which is 5d6. Lastly, he plans to use this strategy mainly in stormy weather, bumping it up to 5d10's, while casting from a small wild shape form to make finding him harder. Even with reflex, that's 25 guaranteed damage a round, barring evasion, with no continued spell expenditure over a large range. I don't think he'll ever enter combat again.

Sudden maximize is 1/day. Send him a trash encounter, and then attack normally after the spell expires.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-10, 10:26 PM
Just have more than one combat per day.

Safety Sword
2010-11-10, 10:36 PM
Well, a few clarifications:

This is supposedly an unoptimized campaign, so such shenanigans are worrisome to me. I have a Lasher playing, for goodness sakes. I fear this will outshine the efforts of other party members. And yes, this is via sudden maximize, so no higher spell slot needed.

Secondly, he plans to branch this strategy out into Call Lightning storm, which is 5d6. Lastly, he plans to use this strategy mainly in stormy weather, bumping it up to 5d10's, while casting from a small wild shape form to make finding him harder. Even with reflex, that's 25 guaranteed damage a round, barring evasion, with no continued spell expenditure over a large range. I don't think he'll ever enter combat again.

I hear NPCs can do whatever PCs can do :smallamused:

Kylarra
2010-11-10, 10:38 PM
eh, even with lightning storm it's not terribly scary. He could just take the storm bolt reserve feat and be blasting for Spell Level*D6 electric damage all day long without even casting spells.

30-50 damage per round when he's got the weather on his side and a sudden max rod out of a 5th level slot is not terribly impressive.

Marnath
2010-11-10, 10:53 PM
eh, even with lightning storm it's not terribly scary. He could just take the storm bolt reserve feat and be blasting for Spell Level*D6 electric damage all day long without even casting spells.

30-50 damage per round when he's got the weather on his side and a sudden max rod out of a 5th level slot is not terribly impressive.

Don't you mean 25-50?

Kylarra
2010-11-10, 11:02 PM
Don't you mean 25-50?Well, call lightning storm is 5D6 for normal or 5D10 if he's got the weather. So 30 or 50 depending on if he's put the extra effort to get the battlefield to his liking. Alternatively I could've been thinking of normal call lightning which is 3D10 when outdoors and stormy.

Regardless, if he's not outdoors in stormy weather it's hardly impressive at all, 18 or 30 damage for 10 (to 15) rounds, and if he is outdoors, well he should get the props for setting up the battlefield and burning a 1/day ability.

Marnath
2010-11-10, 11:03 PM
Well, call lightning storm is 5D6 for normal or 5D10 if he's got the weather. So 30 or 50 depending on if he's put the extra effort to get the battlefield to his liking.

You did specify during a storm, and it's save for half. So :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-11-10, 11:05 PM
You did specify during a storm, and it's save for half. So :smalltongue:Well in that case we could also assume evasion so potentially 0 damage! or improved evasion since call lightning storm is 5th level spell so improved evasion is not technically out of the question!

Godskook
2010-11-10, 11:30 PM
5th level spells mean 9th level characters. I once heard that 6*ECL is a 'guideline' damage output for single-target damage. That's 54 damage per
round by level 9, so he's right on track.

Consider that a paladin with spirited charge, a mount, a lance and power attack deals exactly 6*ECL in power-attack damage per strike(1:2 power attack, tripled from using a lance with spirited charge). That's 2 feats, a fairly standard weapon, and a mount. We can up this damage by a *LOT* if we give him pounce(doable), find more multipliers(valorous enhancement comes to mind), or add shock trooper so he doesn't take penalties on his to-hit while doing this. That's also ignoring smite evil, which can help spike his damage considerably against BBEGs.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-11, 10:49 AM
I played a character who used Maximize a lot, along with Easy Metamagic (Maximize) to reduce the adjustment to +2 instead of +3. I did far less than some of the more optimized characters in the party, but I could do what I did fairly consistently. It wasn't a game breaker by any means, but it certainly came in handy at times.

Eloel
2010-11-11, 11:15 AM
Consider that a paladin with spirited charge, a mount, a lance and power attack deals exactly 6*ECL in power-attack damage per strike(1:2 power attack, tripled from using a lance with spirited charge). That's 2 feats, a fairly standard weapon, and a mount.
And you haven't calculated in the Str & base weapon damage.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 11:21 AM
Good thing the druid is not wildshaping...with natural spell you would have a bear shooting lightning at people.

Only thing I cansuggest is to ramp up some of the encounters the party faces. That, or put more encounters in the average workaday. That way, other characters get an opportunity to shine.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 11:31 AM
Level 12 archer fighter, standard WBL
+1 holy composite longbow (+1 or +2 strength rating)
boots of speed
bracers of lesser archery
misc. gear, fighter tree feats, standard archer feats (rapid shot, improved precise shot, etc.)
30 AC (26 when attacking due to buckler)
124.5 HP
20/20/20/15/10 AB (avg. CR 10 monster AC = 22.5 => 3.615 hits per round)
1d8+1 (magic) +2d6 (holy) +4 (weapon spec) +1 (composite) = 17.5 average damage per hit x 3.615 hits per round = 63.26 damage per round, unbuffed, ignoring crits
Includes misses, while the druid's 50 30 damage is a big maybe; often it's 15, 25 or 30 9, 15 or 18 damage. And the fighter can do it all day long baby. Maybe the party's fighter(s) aren't quite as good, but come on even with other spells the druid could be doing better.

IMO the DM doesn't need to do anything.

EDIT: Oh level 5-6 with sudden maximize? That is a little cheesy but glancing at my notes for that level without running the numbers I think the fighter can still manage 15-25 damage per round vs the druid's 9-18, rarely 30. I mean how often is it stormy? Throw out more than 1 encounter per day and sudden maximize won't be so strong. By which I mean he'll no longer be able to do the OP thing of almost keeping up with a fighter's damage and survivability. I really hope he's smart enough to cast other spells too...

Uncle Casw
2010-11-11, 11:33 AM
Lastly, he plans to use this strategy mainly in stormy weather, bumping it up to 5d10's, while casting from a small wild shape form to make finding him harder.

Doesn't wind blow him away?

You could even houserule every druid to be using the shapeshift ACF from PHB2. Put emphasis on things like "It's just like the World of Warcraft druid!" "you get bonuses on str/ac in the double digits!" rather than "no more small forms" or "no more Natural Spell"

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 11:36 AM
Only in 31-50 mph winds, and it only knocks him down. In which case medium creatures also have a little trouble. They can't move against the wind.

Goudaa
2010-11-11, 11:46 AM
Level 12 archer fighter, standard WBL
+1 holy composite longbow (+1 or +2 strength rating)
boots of speed
bracers of lesser archery
misc. gear, fighter tree feats, standard archer feats (rapid shot, improved precise shot, etc.)
30 AC (26 when attacking due to buckler)
124.5 HP
20/20/20/15/10 AB (avg. CR 10 monster AC = 22.5 => 3.615 hits per round)
1d8+1 (magic) +2d6 (holy) +4 (weapon spec) +1 (composite) = 17.5 average damage per hit x 3.615 hits per round = 63.26 damage per round, unbuffed, ignoring crits
Includes misses, while the druid's 50 damage is a big maybe; often it's 15, 25 or 30 damage. And the fighter can do it all day long baby. Maybe the party's fighter(s) aren't quite as good, but come on even with other spells the druid could be doing better.

IMO the DM doesn't need to do anything.


Curious on the gear you chose in regards to armor for that build and the ability scores you point bought.

Telonius
2010-11-11, 11:56 AM
Call Lightning is a 3rd-level spell, Call Lightning Storm is a 5th-level. If we're talking about maximizing Call Lightning Storm, that takes up an 8th-level spell slot. So the caster of a maximized Call Lightning Storm is at least a 15th-level Druid.

The total damage a maximized Call Lightning Storm can do is a bit more than Stormrage from the Spell Compendium, but Stormrage also lets you fly and grants you touch attacks (i.e. no reflex half).

EDIT: Didn't see the bit about Sudden Maximize. That does change things slightly. Still, it's only once per day. A once-a-day "I win" button... still very powerful, but not as completely troublesome.

Greenish
2010-11-11, 11:56 AM
Consider that a paladin with spirited charge, a mount, a lance and power attack deals exactly 6*ECL in power-attack damage per strike(1:2 power attack, tripled from using a lance with spirited charge). That's 2 feats, a fairly standard weapon, and a mount.Four feats, actually. Spirited Charge requires Mounted Combat and Ride-by Attack.

Anyhow, we don't know how unoptimized the OP's campaign is, aside from the fact that he's worried about someone doing 18 damage (ref 1/2) per round for 5 rounds by burning his highest level spell slot, 1/day feat and spending a round* casting the spell in the first place.

*Not full-round round action, but one whole round, interruptable by anyone.

ericgrau
2010-11-11, 12:09 PM
Curious on the gear you chose in regards to armor for that build and the ability scores you point bought.

Elite array. The AC is getting a bit off-topic, but it's the standard armor/shield/ring/amulet/ioun-stone. Spreading out your sources is the way to keep up on high level AC.

2-HeadedGiraffe
2010-11-12, 10:10 AM
I think it sounds more impressive than it is, honestly, though it really depends on what the rest of the party is capable of doing. It doesn't really matter what an optimized character could do in the abstract because the original poster said his group is not optimized. The ability is or is not a problem based on where it falls in the power spectrum of the game's particular party.

Warlawk
2010-11-12, 01:08 PM
Keep in mind that your full AB classes are one level from adding an attack to their full attack, so that will bring their damage output up a little. At 5th level rogues are putting out 3d6 sneak attack on most of their attacks.

Really, using a 1/day ability to put out *slightly* better damage than the rest of the party doesn't seem like a terribly big deal to me. It's decent, but not overpowered unless your other group members are really weak builds.

If it seems too strong, use more encounters per day.