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Hironomus
2010-11-16, 09:34 AM
Basically what the title says.
I recently saw some discussion about Rorschachs in another thread (the demotivater one I think).
I am a huge watchmen fan and I would like to know what kind of characters these disfunctional heroes would make.
I have my own ideas of course but am much more interested in hearing your theories.
I find it difficult to believe this hasn't been done before, but anyway I would like to know.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 10:20 AM
What system?

Assuming 3E D&D, I'd say something like

Nite Owl - L6 artificer
Rorschach - L8 rogue
Silk Spectre II - L6 fighter
Comedian - L8 fighter
Ozymandias - L15 factotum
Dr. Manhattan - L21 wizard

Greenish
2010-11-16, 10:45 AM
I might go for slightly lower levels (except for the big blue), and give Rorschach some levels in fighter. He's less about hitting the weak spot and more about hitting until the spot he's hitting is the weak spot, breaking faces and fingers and so forth.

Veildt could be a carmendine monk 2/factotum 3+.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 10:48 AM
I'd probably put Manhatten as a Psion, actually. Seems closer to how he operates.

The Comedian could have a few (ranged) ranger levels as well, being a sniper and Vietnam veteran.

mikeejimbo
2010-11-16, 10:49 AM
I feel like Dr. Manhattan is best run as a Plot Device.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 11:04 AM
As I said. An epic psion. :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 11:08 AM
give Rorschach some levels in fighter. He's less about hitting the weak spot and more about hitting until the spot he's hitting is the weak spot, breaking faces and fingers and so forth.
Ah, he definitely does massive sneak attack damage whenever he hits :)

And yeah, Manhattan is closer to psion, I just went for core by reflex. I put Veidt so high because he can curbstomp Rorschach and Nite Owl without raising a sweat.

grarrrg
2010-11-16, 11:10 AM
What system?

Assuming 3E D&D, I'd say something like

Nite Owl - L6 artificer
Rorschach - L8 rogue
Silk Spectre II - L6 fighter
Comedian - L8 fighter
Ozymandias - L15 factotum
Dr. Manhattan - L21 wizard


**WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILERS**
First off, if this is DnD EVERYONE should get some form of Unarmed damage boost. Lots of punching. And one case of Snatch Arrows Bullet.
While there should be no actual levels of Monk involved, everyone is kinda sorta assumed-ish to have Monk gestalt.
Also, alignment-wise most of them should NOT be Lawful, due to the ban on vigilantes.

Nite Owl II - Neutral Good.
Rorshach - Crazy Good - Should be Fighter/Rogue. He Sneaks and he Punches (and follows his Hunches)
Silk Spectre II - Neutral Good.
Comedian - Chaotic Neutral - only 'heroic' because the Government pointed him at the 'evil' people.
Ozymandias - Lawful Evil - where Rorshach is Chaotic Good with Lawful intentions, Ozymandias is Lawful Evil with Good intentions. Factotum is GREAT for the skills, but maybe swap out the 'casting'-like abilities. Also, he shouldn't be that much higher level than the rest.
Dr. Manhatten - pretty much the definition of True Neutral, and the only one with actual 'spells', should probably have a Divine rank/level, as he does 'die' and resurrect himself a few times.

WinceRind
2010-11-16, 11:11 AM
Ah, he definitely does massive sneak attack damage whenever he hits :)

And yeah, Manhattan is closer to psion, I just went for core by reflex. I put Veidt so high because he can curbstomp Rorschach and Nite Owl without raising a sweat.

Maybe Rorschach is a barbarian with the "Ferocity" feature substituted for Rage?

WinceRind
2010-11-16, 11:17 AM
**WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILERS**
First off, if this is DnD EVERYONE should get some form of Unarmed damage boost. Lots of punching. And one cast of Snatch Arrows Bullet.
So while there should be no actual levels of Monk involved, everyone is kinda sorta assumed-ish to have Monk gestalt.
Also, alignment-wise most of them should NOT be Lawful, due to the ban on vigilantes.

Nite Owl II - Neutral Good.
Rorshach - Crazy Good - Should be Fighter/Rogue. He Sneaks and he Punches (and follows his Hunches)
Silk Spectre II - Neutral Good.
Comedian - Chaotic Neutral - only 'heroic' because the Government pointed him at the 'evil' people.
Ozymandias - Lawful Evil - where Rorshach is Chaotic Good with Lawful intentions, Ozymandias is Lawful Evil with Good intentions. Factotum is GREAT for the skills, but maybe swap out the 'casting'-like abilities. Also, he shouldn't be that much higher level than the rest.
Dr. Manhatten - pretty much the definition of True Neutral, and the only one with actual 'spells', should probably have a Divine rank/level, as he does 'die' and resurrect himself a few times.

Are you serious about Rorschach being good ?

He interrogated the guy that used to be Moloch, on suspicion alone. That's Chaotic behaviour, a lawful person would at least try to follow the, you know, laws of the whatever society he belongs to. Like, not interrogating someone just because they used to be a criminal in the past and have no noticeable connection to their past deeds in the present.

And the whole thing with killing criminals outright doesn't really work with Good well either.

He's Chaotic Neutral at best - he follows his own rules (beating up people who he considers the scum, which is often more or less similar to the general society's opinion, however by using very unapproved methods and not being a part of any police organization - and super heroes are kinda outlawed in the setting if my memory is correct. At least, non-government employed ones) and he has no qualms with outright killing, torturing, or otherwise inflicting pain on others.

Now, Ozymandias, I think he got a case for either Chaotic Neutral (assuming the silly "objective" morality of D&D is in place) or Lawful Evil. Also I have qualms about him being Lawful Evil, but I have no time left to elaborate. Might edit something in later.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 11:23 AM
Also, alignment-wise most of them should NOT be Lawful, due to the ban on vigilantes.
Whoo, do you really want an alignment debate in here? The whole point of Watchmen is to subvert the old comic book black-and-white morality. I can make a pretty good case for Roschach being lawful evil, Ozymandias being chaotic neutral, and Comedian being just as chaotic evil as Belkar.

Grogmir
2010-11-16, 11:24 AM
"At midnight all the agents, and the superhuman crew
round up everyone, that knows more than they do"

Sorry don't know Watchmen - just that one of my players is playing a 'version' of Rorshach - Crazy good is not how he plays him :smallbiggrin:

DragonBaneDM
2010-11-16, 11:28 AM
Whoo, do you really want an alignment debate in here? The whole point of Watchmen is to subvert the old comic book black-and-white morality. I can make a pretty good case for Roschach being lawful evil, Ozymandias being chaotic neutral, and Comedian being just as chaotic evil as Belkar.

You win one Alan Moore tear sir. I collected it at the screening of V for Vendetta. I hate that movie so much.

I agree with Rorscharch as a Rogue. I agree with Nite Owl as an Artificer. I think Silk Spectre should be an NPC, but that's biased. And if we're trying to make Dr. Manhattan THE most powerful class possible, I'd keep wizard, though Psion totally makes sense.

Ah well, I don't much like him either. The barbarian idea for Ror is cool as hell, but he's a lot more subtle than he seems to be.

Evil DM Mark3
2010-11-16, 11:36 AM
Also, alignment-wise most of them should NOT be Lawful, due to the ban on vigilantes.

That. Is. Not. What. Lawful. Means!!!

Lawful means following a code, be it a personal code, a codified discipline or the laws of the land. You can have lawful aligned criminals after all (most organised crime would fall into such a category).

I can see good arguments for both Nite-Owl and Rorshach both being Lawful, albeit with very different codes. Rorshach has very strict internal rules, he displays loyalty and has a deep dedication to Justice, at least his own version of it.

Also, I know what you need to stat Dr Manhattan. In a world of at most mid level characters 5 or 10 divine ranks on top of 20 sorcerer levels and 20 outsider hd would stat him up perfectly.

Hironomus
2010-11-16, 11:44 AM
Whoo, do you really want an alignment debate in here? The whole point of Watchmen is to subvert the old comic book black-and-white morality. I can make a pretty good case for Roschach being lawful evil, Ozymandias being chaotic neutral, and Comedian being just as chaotic evil as Belkar.

Heh. If your intent was to point out how traditional alignments can be subverted it's ironic that I actually totally agree with the alignments you just suggested.

Especially in the case of Rorschach. I strongly feel that he would be lawful. His character concept invloves dualism and thinking in black and white (hence the mask), specifically that justice must be served to the wicked, no matter the cost. He said at one stage "Never compromise... even in the face of armageddon".
The only reason he didn't obey societies law was that he views them as morally bankrupt as the rest of the filth. he views himself as an examplar of law.
and he'd be evil, coz I mean, it doesn't matter how enraged you get when children are harmed, or how highly you value friendship, or even how good your intentions are. at the end of the day if you push people down elevator shafts and torture them for information thats evil.

thats just my take on it anyway.

Grynning
2010-11-16, 11:46 AM
M&M's Atomic Think Tank forum, using a system much more appropriate to comic characters than 3.5, has already done this a million times over for every costumed hero ever.

This is a link to the builds by just one guy. All the Watchmen characters except for Silk Specter are on there.

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14764

Hironomus
2010-11-16, 11:54 AM
ooh neat!
only problem is it doesn't give alignment (even though thats a sensitive issue, it IS an interesting part of the hero's personalities) and also what's with the lack of silk spectre?
Anyway thanks very much. Now if anyone would like to focus on the silk spectre....

Inhuman Bot
2010-11-16, 11:57 AM
Rorshach - Good

I have to admit, that made me laugh.

Grynning
2010-11-16, 12:09 PM
only problem is it doesn't give alignment (even though thats a sensitive issue, it IS an interesting part of the hero's personalities)

Mutants and Masterminds doesn't use alignments, you just pick some aspects of your character's personality to role play. There's no need for mechanical alignments in a comic-hero game, as the actions of most vigilante hero characters don't fall into a neat spectrum:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rL1Jjp1dMY8/Sw3vRWrzweI/AAAAAAAAAxs/fMIxw0lZLo8/s1600/batman-alignment.jpg

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 12:18 PM
Heh. If your intent was to point out how traditional alignments can be subverted it's ironic that I actually totally agree with the alignments you just suggested.

The black-and-white morality, rather.

Consider how everybody reacts to hearing of Ozymandias's plan to kill millions of people (but for a good cause). Manhattan calmly decides that it is logical. "Ordinary man" Nite Owl has problems grasping the concept, but more or less accepts it. Psychotic murderer Comedian bursts into tears. And creepy sociopath Rorschach takes a powerful ethical stand against it.

That's a far cry from the comic book tradition of "those guys in the white hats are good, and those guys in black hats are bad, and that's why we shoot them, hombre."

grarrrg
2010-11-16, 01:06 PM
I have to admit, that made me laugh.

I think of Rorshach as a VERY hypocritical "Ends justify the means" type of person. And bat-guano-insane, don't forget that part.

Rorshach to OTHER people 'in-world' is Chaotic Evil, MAYBE Chaotic Neutral.
Rorshach's 'ideal' is Good, probably more Neutral than Lawful, but still Good. It is what he aspires for the world, not necessarily himself.
To HIMSELF he is more Lawful Neutral. He only does to the criminals what they have done to others (kinda).
Yes he is sick and twisted, but only TOWARDS the evil, sick, and/or twisted.
Nite Owl II definately disagrees with some of Rorshach's methods, but can't necessarily argue with the results.

So yes, in a round about way, I believe that Rorshach is Neutral (CRAZY) Good. Again, very 'ends justify the means' approach.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 01:22 PM
So yes, in a round about way, I believe that Rorshach is Neutral (CRAZY) Good. Again, very 'ends justify the means' approach.
"The end justifies the means" is an extremely evil motivation. As a wise man once said, "the road to the Nine Hells is paved with good intentions".

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 01:33 PM
Both Rorschach and Ozymandias are "ends justify means" types- the difference is in what means they use, and what means they won't.

Rorschach is willing to torture "villains"- but the means Ozymandias uses, combined with the planned "Big Lie" result in him refusing to go along with it.

Sort of "Even Evil has Standards".

Tengu_temp
2010-11-16, 01:39 PM
Rorschach is not good, but he believes that, in the alignment system, he is. In fact, Rorschach believes in the alignment system in a world where morality is much more complicated.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-16, 01:47 PM
Okay, lets actually stat rather then align yeah? (I'm doing them in core)

I would put Rorschach as a Ranger 7 without an int score (Nite owl is his animal companion). He has the feat improved unarmed, and doesn't afraid of anything uses TWF and Weapon Finesse (Also improved Grapple). He might have more feats then RAW, so boost his levels.

Nite Owl I would make a level 8 rogue with medium armor proficiency that has an only average dex/strength but has maxed UMD (which he uses to use his gadgets). Also, improved unarmed strike, but uses spiked gauntlets.

Old Nite Owl I would put as a level 5 Fighter with feats stacked in melee (grapple, trip. etc). Same thing with the New Silk Specter.

Veidt I would make a level 12 Rogue with an 18 in dex and a 21 or more in int. (Good early rolls, based on his childhood). Maxed UMD, but he doesn't need it as much as the others. Also he uses feint in combat get sneak attacks in people's faces.

Comedian I would stat as a level 9 character, with 4 in barbarian, 2 in rogue and 2 in fighter (hes a human lol). The Barbarian and rogue were before he got his spine handed to him by Hooded Justice, and the fighter levels were after. Improved Unarmed Strike obviously, but also heavy armor (plate) weapons and UMD items (he took it as a focus, has a UMD of 10). Tends to beat the others because he uses weapons in combat rather then fists.

Dr. Manhattan I would stat as an epic level Psion or Favored Soul/Sorcerer MT. He is at least level 25, has access to level 10 Netherese spells.

Urpriest
2010-11-16, 01:57 PM
Can we get back to stats?

Though alignmentwise, Rorcharch might be interesting as the grayest of Gray Guards...hmm...

Anyway, Manhattan really needs some Salient Divine Abilities. Portfolio Sense would emulate his ability to perceive things back and forward in time, while Alter Reality represents pretty much everything else he does. I'm thinking at least Divine Rank 0, perhaps 1.

Ozy is a factotum. He might have the suggested levels of Carmendine Monk, for his martial arts training and Deflect Arrows. He might also just have used his Factotum powers to cast Heroics.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 02:00 PM
Anyway, Manhattan really needs some Salient Divine Abilities. Portfolio Sense would emulate his ability to perceive things back and forward in time, while Alter Reality represents pretty much everything else he does. I'm thinking at least Divine Rank 0, perhaps 1.

Greater deities can see things related to their portfolio before they happen (weeks in advance, number depending on their rank).

Intermediate deities can see things related to their portfolio as they happen.

Lesser deities and demigods can only see things related to their portfolio, as they happen, if they involve a large number of people.

Psyren
2010-11-16, 02:02 PM
I feel like Dr. Manhattan is best run as a Plot Device.


As I said. An epic psion. :smalltongue:

These are both correct, and not mutually exclusive :smallwink:

Susano-wo
2010-11-16, 03:47 PM
Greater deities can see things related to their portfolio before they happen (weeks in advance, number depending on their rank).

Intermediate deities can see things related to their portfolio as they happen.

Lesser deities and demigods can only see things related to their portfolio, as they happen, if they involve a large number of people.

Though actually...if your portfolio is, say, time and space?(probably Time, Space, Matter, and Energy:smallamused:) wouldn't percieving them 'as tehy happen' be meaningless if your portfolio was time?

I think all of the concenses are good, though I would,rather than gestalt monk as someone suggested, simply give them improved/superiior unarmed for free (hell, they are sacrificing most of their armor proficiencies, so I'd give them WIS to AC, probably)

RE alignements, its hard to peg when I feel a personal code would peg someone as Lawful. I would say it has to a be a rigid set of rulesm and a respect for Hierarchy. (I mean, following your own standards is pretty much part of the definition of Neutral/Chaotic)

Its unclear whether Rorschach would indeed follow authorities and defer to them if he felt they were doing a good job. I'd say no, he might have some respect for them, but he would still take it upon himself to enact justice. So I'd peg him at Neutral Evil (though I can see the argument that he also does good, but I'd have to reread the comic to see if I thought it outweighed the evil stuff.

Night Owl [is it really spelled Nite?] I'd say NG, same with Silk spectre. They really don't give any credence to the law, really, so much as their sense of justice.
Of course Comedian is CE--he behaves erratically, morphing with the current of history, and though he regrets his actions, there is nothing to me that says he ever got bumped back up to CN, much less CG

DR Manhattan is Druid...er NN:smallwink:

And Ozymandius I'd give LE. He wants order, and respects it and heirarchies, but feels that this plot is for the the greater good...though it is in reality evil.:smallfrown:

THough to give an example of a character that strikes me as lawful...I can't rememebr his name, Captain Metropolis maybe? The guy who tries to start back up the minutemen. Seems to haev respect for the law, and just want to help out and do his part in addition.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 04:09 PM
Though actually...if your portfolio is, say, time and space?(probably Time, Space, Matter, and Energy:smallamused:) wouldn't percieving them 'as tehy happen' be meaningless if your portfolio was time?

There are deities with Time as part of their portfolio- and not always greater deities. For the elves, Labelas Enoreth is one.

Maybe it's when a character casts Time Stop, or something similar, that the deity's attention is drawn, rather than to normal events.

There's also Inevitables in Fiend Folio, one of which specializes in hunting down those who "meddle with time"- again, it's probably serious temporal events that cause them to come after the being responsible.

Lapak
2010-11-16, 04:09 PM
Those of you trying to stat Manhattan as a PC class are making a mistake made in the book:

I never said, "The superman exists, and he's American." What I said was,"God exists, and he's American." Given that he can create life from nothing, reconstitute himself from complete disintegration without prior preparation, see the past and the future, be in multiple places at once - basically do anything he wants to - I agree with those saying he need some Divine Ranks. :smallsmile:

Calmar
2010-11-16, 05:26 PM
I'm a bloody noob, but isn't Silk Spectres only "superpower" that she's hot? :smallconfused:

Susano-wo
2010-11-16, 05:30 PM
There are deities with Time as part of their portfolio- and not always greater deities. For the elves, Labelas Enoreth is one.

Maybe it's when a character casts Time Stop, or something similar, that the deity's attention is drawn, rather than to normal events.

There's also Inevitables in Fiend Folio, one of which specializes in hunting down those who "meddle with time"- again, it's probably serious temporal events that cause them to come after the being responsible.

Yeah, that's probably true. a Non-greater would just kknow when something messed with time

Kurald Galain
2010-11-16, 05:36 PM
I'm a bloody noob, but isn't Silk Spectres only "superpower" that she's hot? :smallconfused:

Well, she is capable of knocking out half a dozen street muggers.

The point is that none of the Minutemen are supers, except for Manhattan.

Tengu_temp
2010-11-16, 05:43 PM
I'm a bloody noob, but isn't Silk Spectres only "superpower" that she's hot? :smallconfused:

None of them have superpowers, except for Dr Manhattan. Ozymandias possesses incredible intellect and trained himself to the peak of human potential, but there is technically nothing super about his abilities.

Eldan
2010-11-16, 05:57 PM
Those of you trying to stat Manhattan as a PC class are making a mistake made in the book:
Given that he can create life from nothing, reconstitute himself from complete disintegration without prior preparation, see the past and the future, be in multiple places at once - basically do anything he wants to - I agree with those saying he need some Divine Ranks. :smallsmile:

I'm sure with a little searching, you could find a thread were someone posted ways for nonepic casters to do all that. Epic certainly.

hamishspence
2010-11-16, 05:58 PM
Even growth to great size can be done- with a Wu Jen spell.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-16, 06:05 PM
None of them have superpowers, except for Dr Manhattan. Ozymandias possesses incredible intellect and trained himself to the peak of human potential, but there is technically nothing super about his abilities.

In the same sense that there is nothing super about Batman's physical capabilities. He can do things that are physically impossible, no matter how much you train (catch bullets much?). I would argue that Ozy has gone beyond mere "peak of human potential" and achieved superhuman status, which is represented fairly accurately by such a high level.

grarrrg
2010-11-16, 09:40 PM
Okay, lets actually stat rather then align yeah?

But Young-Grasshopper, how does one Stat properly, if one does not also Align?


"The end justifies the means" is an extremely evil motivation. As a wise man once said, "the road to the Nine Hells is paved with good intentions".

Rorschach is not good, but he believes that, in the alignment system, he is.

I will now present to you for the first time ever...
Rorshach is actually a (spoilered for the faint of heart)
Lawful Good (NOT fallen) Paladin. Full stop.
DUN DUN DUN!

Now, the first thing you MUST take note of is that in order to Stat in Dnd you must follow the DnD rules and suggestions. So we are NOT Aligning by 'real world' or 'comic book world' rules, we are Aligning by DnD rules.
We shall dispense with the easiest part first. Lawful.
I'll start with EvilDMMk3, as he said it fairly well.

Lawful means following a code, be it a personal code, a codified discipline or the laws of the land....I can see good arguments for both Nite-Owl and Rorshach both being Lawful, albeit with very different codes. Rorshach has very strict internal rules, he displays loyalty and has a deep dedication to Justice, at least his own version of it.

Another couple possible definitions of Lawful would be Logical, or Predictable. Rorschach is definately logical and methodical, remember the beginning when he went over every inch of the comedians place just to make sure he didn't miss ANYTHING? He's also fairly predictable, not from moment to moment, but in general, you know his motivations, how he'll react in most situations, that sort of thing.
Rorshach is Lawful.

Good? or Not-quite-so-Good? That is the question.
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#goodVsEvil)
Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

Rorshach does not kill innocents. He does not kill for profit (maybe its fun, but that isn't the motivation). He has a respect for life and makes many personal sacrifices (he's basically homeless, or maybe a Hobo...)
He does hurt and kill others, but only those who deserve it. He does not kill because it is convenient. He kills to put a definate end to the evil (he favors the death-penalty, not jail).

Further down that page...
A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Rorshach is.. well, read the above and tell me what part he DOESN'T fit.
Of special note is "Speaks out against injustice...hates to see the guilty go unpunished". Now, why did Rorshach die again? A great injustice that will go unpunished.

Now remember, we are using DnD morality, NOT real world. In real world you kill 1 person (intentionally, not self-defense) and you're evil. In Dnd, PCs kill evil people (and a fair lot of non-good) all the time, and it's EXPECTED of them, they are PRAISED for it.

It's also been said that most Dnd characters are basically 'violent hobos'.
Rorshach is a Lawful Good, Paladin, Violent Hobo.


I do believe I just blew your minds.
Ba-ZING!

Urpriest
2010-11-16, 09:58 PM
Rorschach also uses torture. Standard-issue D&D paladins have a problem with things like torture. It's why Grey Guards exist. Ergo, Rorschach should have some levels in Grey Guard. That or Shadowbane Inquisitor. Perhaps both.

Susano-wo
2010-11-17, 12:17 AM
Hey, you remember that whole "and we'll answer, 'no.'" speech? respect for life? nuh-uh, doesn't have it. I don't buy good. Neutral? sure, I can by that.

Grynning
2010-11-17, 12:17 AM
Rorschach also uses torture. Standard-issue D&D paladins have a problem with things like torture. It's why Grey Guards exist. Ergo, Rorschach should have some levels in Grey Guard. That or Shadowbane Inquisitor. Perhaps both.

Rorschach also had a definite "alignment shift" -

After the incident with the child killer. His outlook changed, and he went from a standard beat-em-up leave em for the cops guy to someone who cuffs a guy to a pipe in a burning house with a saw to cut off his own leg after killing his (mostly innocent) dogs.


he used to be LG, but if I had to I'd put him at LN during the time of the comic/movie main story.

Jallorn
2010-11-17, 12:37 AM
I dunno if it was mentioned, but Manhattan should be an StP Erudite.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-17, 02:18 AM
Rorschach is the exact opposite of a "the ends justify the means" type of character. He is a deontologist, and the Rorschach character is probably Moore's deconstruction of deontology. Rorschach bases his actions entirely on what people deserve rather than the foreseen consequences. The quote says it best: "Why does one death matter against so many? Because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished. Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this. But there are so many deserving of retribution ... and there is so little time."

He's not pretending that his torture and criminal vigilante antics are a necessary evil to achieve justice. He's torturing and killing people because (to him) they're filthy criminals who deserve it! He's willing to damn the entire world to nuclear Armageddon due to his insanely strict sense of justice and desert*. If you're looking for the "ends justify the means" character, it's Veidt, and then (to a lesser extent) every other character at the end after they agree to play along.

*and that makes for an awesome character. My favorite, in fact.

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 04:27 AM
Rorschach is the exact opposite of a "the ends justify the means" type of character. He is a deontologist, and the Rorschach character is probably Moore's deconstruction of deontology. Rorschach bases his actions entirely on what people deserve rather than the foreseen consequences. The quote says it best: "Why does one death matter against so many? Because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished. Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this. But there are so many deserving of retribution ... and there is so little time."

He's not pretending that his torture and criminal vigilante antics are a necessary evil to achieve justice. He's torturing and killing people because (to him) they're filthy criminals who deserve it!

This isn't that far from "ends justify means"- but it's a slightly different approach.

It's a "Because my victims deserve it, my means aren't evil" perspective.

A person who thinks that a sufficiently necessary End, makes their Means cease to be evil, is the more standard variant.

A person who thinks that a sufficiently deserving victim makes their Means cease to be evil- is like Rorschach.


Now remember, we are using DnD morality, NOT real world. In real world you kill 1 person (intentionally, not self-defense) and you're evil. In Dnd, PCs kill evil people (and a fair lot of non-good) all the time, and it's EXPECTED of them, they are PRAISED for it.

It's also been said that most Dnd characters are basically 'violent hobos'.
Rorshach is a Lawful Good, Paladin, Violent Hobo.

On D&D morality- since Core morality tends to focus on "general moral and personal attitudes" it's easier to justify Rorschach as Good or Non-Evil when sticking to core and ignoring everything the splatbooks say.

But if you go beyond Core, to the splatbooks, not all Evil deeds solely involve harm coming to the innocent. In BoED, and FC2, Torture, even of the "thoroughly evil"- becomes an evil act itself.

And in Champions of Ruin, repeatedly committing serious evil act, can lead to an evil alignment- even if the character has good intentions, and doesn't believe their acts are evil.

(Heroes of Horror does allow for a character who commits mild evil acts, such as animating the dead, toward good ends, to maintain a Neutral alignment- but Death By Torture is not exactly mild).

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-17, 06:04 AM
This isn't that far from "ends justify means"- but it's a slightly different approach.

It's a "Because my victims deserve it, my means aren't evil" perspective.In order for someone to use the consequentialist argument, they have to first admit that what they're doing is (at least in some relatively small way) a bad thing. Rorschach thinks what he's doing is righteous punishment. At least as far as (pre-deconstruction) ethical theory is concerned, the two justifications are on the opposite ends of a loooong spectrum.

A person who thinks that a sufficiently necessary End, makes their Means cease to be evil, is the more standard variant.Technically the bad means for a good end is usually phrased as the lesser of two evils; for example, one evil could be killing millions of people, and the other evil could be letting billions of people die when you could have done something about it.

A person who thinks that a sufficiently deserving victim makes their Means cease to be evil- is like Rorschach.Again, totally different. Once you introduce people deserving things, the ends justifying the means gets thrown right out.

In any event, I don't think Rorschach fits any particular alignment well - or rather, he could fit almost any alignment under the right circumstances. He lives in and was shaped by Moore's world, which is very, very different from a standard D&D world. If you put Rorschach in a world with physical manifestations of morality he might 'get it' and become a Good Is Not Nice (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodIsNotNice) hero, or he might stay snapped and keep torturing commoners.

hamishspence
2010-11-17, 06:36 AM
At least as far as (pre-deconstruction) ethical theory is concerned, the two justifications are on the opposite ends of a loooong spectrum.

The point being made is- the two have a lot more in common with each other, than with the middle.

Rorschach and Ozymandius could be both Lawful Evil- but in diametrically opposed ways.

leden
2010-11-17, 07:12 AM
Those of you trying to stat Manhattan as a PC class are making a mistake made in the book:
Given that he can create life from nothing, reconstitute himself from complete disintegration without prior preparation, see the past and the future, be in multiple places at once - basically do anything he wants to - I agree with those saying he need some Divine Ranks. :smallsmile:

I think you're all wrong.
Dr. Manhattan is the DM :smallcool:

Hironomus
2010-11-17, 07:19 AM
I think you're all wrong.
Dr. Manhattan is the DM :smallcool:

More like Veidt is the DM. That guy is a master of manipulation

grarrrg
2010-11-17, 07:59 AM
I think you're all wrong.
Dr. Manhattan is the DM :smallcool:

I think you may be onto something here.
Dr. Manhattan ???

Hironomus
2010-11-17, 08:41 AM
I think you may be onto something here.
Dr. Manhattan ???

Well i thought Ozymandius' reveal at the end was vaguely DM like but this... THIS is all the proof I need.

Kaww
2010-11-17, 10:45 AM
It's more like BBEG speech, he said so?!
Dr. Manhattan is a DMPC, a well played DMPC, but a DMPC nonetheless...