[L5R 4E] Interested in the system...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So, I've stumbled across this thing called Legend of the Five Rings, which is in its latest edition. It's been getting rave reviews, the book is supposedly gorgeous, and the system looks different but crunchy and standard. It seems like it might be cool as an alternative to D&D, which I've been getting disillusioned with a little. In fact, I'm considering picking up the core book on my next paycheck.

Two questions.

1. If you have experience with it, is it worth the buy?
2. What should I know, going into this RPG? Any beginner's tips?

[hamlet]

I've not had a chance to review the 4th edition, but I can answer the question that you didn't ask and probably don't want an answer to:

Yes, the 3rd edition is definately worth buying if you're into pseudo-Japanese gaming. Beautiful and an excellent system, though it was very unfortunate that AEG decided that the developments of the CCG tournaments would dictate what happened in the RPG verse.

[The Big Dice]

If you want a jumping on point for L5R, 4th edition is as good as you'll get. Personally, I prefer 3rd, but there are issues with the revised rulebook that make it not worth getting if you don't have the original version. And so 4th is well worth it.

The book is gorgeous, though I don't have Enemies of the Empire or the 4th ed GM screen. But the good news is 4th edition is more or less divorced from teh canon AEG storyline. I uses the most recent period of the game as the jumping off point. But it isn't as tied to that storyline as other editions have been.

The biggest difference between L5R and other games you might have played is the culture. Rokugan is deep. It's also a very sophisticated culture, with all kinds of nuances and subtleties that can take time to get used to.

It's also not like D&D in that characters, even very advanced ones, are quite squishy. L5R is very much a social game, with combat being fast and deadly.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I've not had a chance to review the 4th edition, but I can answer the question that you didn't ask and probably don't want an answer to:

Yes, the 3rd edition is definately worth buying if you're into pseudo-Japanese gaming. Beautiful and an excellent system, though it was very unfortunate that AEG decided that the developments of the CCG tournaments would dictate what happened in the RPG verse.
Good to know. That squares away with what I've heard.

If you want a jumping on point for L5R, 4th edition is as good as you'll get. Personally, I prefer 3rd, but there are issues with the revised rulebook that make it not worth getting if you don't have the original version. And so 4th is well worth it.
Awesome. A jumping-on point is exactly what I'd be wanting.

The book is gorgeous, though I don't have Enemies of the Empire or the 4th ed GM screen. But the good news is 4th edition is more or less divorced from teh canon AEG storyline. I uses the most recent period of the game as the jumping off point. But it isn't as tied to that storyline as other editions have been.
From my standpoint, that sounds really good. I like being able to mess around with canon storylines, as long as there's enough of a toolkit to build a story around.

The biggest difference between L5R and other games you might have played is the culture. Rokugan is deep. It's also a very sophisticated culture, with all kinds of nuances and subtleties that can take time to get used to.

It's also not like D&D in that characters, even very advanced ones, are quite squishy. L5R is very much a social game, with combat being fast and deadly.
Those both sound quite cool. Sounds like I'd have to work with a group to ascertain their mindset and get it set right, but I really like the idea of a more social game, less combat-focused, with squishy characters. HP grinding annoys me.

[zerombr]

I can't say much about 4E, but for L5R in general, I've found it to be a remarkably alive setting, at least for the CCG.

[Satyr]

I personally think that the 4th edition is a vast improvement to the third; it is more streamlined, more accessible, and in many ways better organized. The books are indeed nice to look at and, according to my experiences so far, well made from a craft perspective - the books seem rather robust and it certainly doesn't have the ridiculous amount of spelling and copy and paste errors as the 3rd edition (the revised version at least; when a game has so many errors that I, who is usually not very observant for this feels that it becomes detrimental to the book, it has certainly surpassed a critical mark).
The setting is nice, and yes, the game is focused on experiencing the society and culture of the setting. The game emphases subtlety and civilized behavior more than most other fantasy games (which it is; it is by no means a 'historical' or realistic' setting; it is a fantasy setting where the usual layman's ideas of European medieval aesthetics and basic assumptions are exchanged with pseudo-Japanese ones; "Rokugan isn't Japan" is about the most central meme that game could possibly have).
The rules are complex, and a bit clunky at times, but fit the setting well and in the basic concept, it is quite easy to understand. While these are certainly not the greatest rule echanisms on earth, it is fun enough to play with them, instead of exchanging them for something better (something like the basic criteria I apply for games), and it is actually quite easy and satisfying to homebrew all kind of stuff for it, which is always nice (at least for me).

And yes, the game has a very prominent metaplot, which is always a great bonus. You either like those, than the metaplot of L5R and the fact that it is strongly influenced by the player base (more the card game player base than the RPG players, but I understand there is a significant overlap between these two groups) is very refreshing and often unpredictable, because the actual outcome is not fixed.
And if you don't like metaplots, you can just ignore it, and you are about as good as if there had been no metaplot to begin with. As always, every metaplot is better than no metaplot.

[The Big Dice]

I personally think that the 4th edition is a vast improvement to the third; it is more streamlined, more accessible, and in many ways better organized.
Personally, I found 4th to be a bit vanilla. They took a stance against many of the issues that 3rd had and ended up with a new set of issues all their own. And in the end I didn't see anything that made me sit up and give a Keanu-like "Whoa!"

That's not to say that 4th is bad, just that I prefer 3rd. And I'd still like to homebrew a mix of the best 3rd and 1st editions have to offer...

I will say, the 4th ed rulebook is absolutely gorgeous. The presentation is impeccable, the artwork lifted from the best the CCG has to offer and the layout is both user friendly and intuitive.

"Rokugan isn't Japan" is about the most central meme that game could possibly have
"Rokugan isn't Japan except when it is" is the usual comment about the L5R setting. They took the effort with 4th edition to set things up so that if you're a Japanophile, there's enough for you to work with and build on. But if you're not, there's not so much Japanese culture in the books that you'll get swamped.

It's also the only RPG I can think of where the 1st edition books are still touted as some of the best reading the game has to offer. The original iteration of L5R was described as "a fantasy game that reads like a fantasy novel" and the ideas, archetypes and cultural concepts laid down back in 1997 are still relevant to the game today.

The rules are complex, and a bit clunky at times, but fit the setting well and in the basic concept, it is quite easy to understand. While these are certainly not the greatest rule echanisms on earth, it is fun enough to play with them, instead of exchanging them for something better (something like the basic criteria I apply for games), and it is actually quite easy and satisfying to homebrew all kind of stuff for it, which is always nice (at least for me).
Compared to D&D, the rules for L5R are pretty simple. The whole system takes up less than a third of the 400 page core rulebook. The rest being cultural, optional rules and fluff. In fact, fluff is probably more important to L5R than crunch is.

To me, the simple flexibility of the L5R Roll and Keep system makes it far more elegant, as well as being easier on both player and GM than a certain game published by a spooky wizard who lives by the coast. The 4th edition game is designed to play pretty much straight off the character sheet, with minimum referencing of the book in play.

The mantra for 4th edition is "L5R your way" and that extends from the plot and metaplot AEG publish on to the rules of the game. In some way's it's quite an old-school approach, but with a very modern spin.

It can mean a certain period of adjustment if you're coming from an exclusively D&D background in roleplaying. But once you make it over that initial learning curve, you should be fine. And there's a large community of homebrewers and so on for L5R out there.

[Satyr]

Personally, I found 4th to be a bit vanilla. They took a stance against many of the issues that 3rd had and ended up with a new set of issues all their own. And in the end I didn't see anything that made me sit up and give a Keanu-like "Whoa!"

Just for my interest: What do you consider these new issues? I'm planning a new campaign using the 4e rules, and I haven't yet found much which would require houserules, so if there are a few problems which can be handled before starting the game, it would be nice to know.
The only real issue I have with the 4th edition is the lack of the ancestor roll, which added a nice element of randomness to the character creation; it is one of my personal ideals to have a game which combines the advantages of both point-buy and random character creation; as such, I liked the random element (and I'm currently homebrewing a new table for this, which is... slightly excessive.)


"Rokugan isn't Japan except when it is" is the usual comment about the L5R setting. They took the effort with 4th edition to set things up so that if you're a Japanophile, there's enough for you to work with and build on. But if you're not, there's not so much Japanese culture in the books that you'll get swamped.

Yes, but the same is true for the better thought out 'usual medieval fantasy settings', say for example, Hârn or Westeros. Sure, someone who enjoys more historical accuracy you can include much in the setting, but there is always a limit. However, in both cases you don't need to know that much about Feudal Japan or Medieval Europe to enjoy the game. I consider this to be a bonus´(in both cases).


It's also the only RPG I can think of where the 1st edition books are still touted as some of the best reading the game has to offer. The original iteration of L5R was described as "a fantasy game that reads like a fantasy novel" and the ideas, archetypes and cultural concepts laid down back in 1997 are still relevant to the game today.

I have only a small selection of first edition books, but yes, those I have read (mostly the Secrets of... books) were quite impressive. If I ever get the old setting books, something like 4e rules, 1e or 2e setting (Scorpion Coup to Clan Wars) seem like a very good combination.
However, I have also heard that the game became 'less Japanese' with later editions and that stuff like gender equality was missing in the 1st edition. Is this true?


Compared to D&D, the rules for L5R are pretty simple. The whole system takes up less than a third of the 400 page core rulebook. The rest being cultural, optional rules and fluff. In fact, fluff is probably more important to L5R than crunch is.

Fluff is certainly much more important than the crunch - I have played several sessions where the most important abilities were something like polite smalltalk and a Go tourney (using actual Go boards).
I would not suggest that it is an unsatisfying system, or that it is particularly difficult to learn, but there are so many comparatively minor elements (e.g. school abilities) which are more than just a bit unclear.

[Psyx]

1. If you have experience with it, is it worth the buy?
2. What should I know, going into this RPG? Any beginner's tips?

It's a good game... although that's based on Editions 1-3.

It's not a killkillkill game. Don't expect dungeon crawls. Combat is deadly. It's much more plotting/plot/RP orientated than most fantasy games. The combat makes WFRP look safe!

[The Big Dice]

Just for my interest: What do you consider these new issues? I'm planning a new campaign using the 4e rules, and I haven't yet found much which would require houserules, so if there are a few problems which can be handled before starting the game, it would be nice to know.
They toned down the overall power of the schools, in some cases getting rid of what I considered definitive Techniques. Bayushi 5 I'm looking at you. Unlike 3rd ed, where you see cool stuff in pretty much every school, 4th seemed a little more toned down.

That's not a bad thing, especially for a new player, but to me it was a bit of a let down. But then, I'm seemingly in the minority for feeling that way.

The biggest issue though is stance declaration in combat. If you go by the way it's explained in the book, it just doesn't work.


I have only a small selection of first edition books, but yes, those I have read (mostly the Secrets of... books) were quite impressive. If I ever get the old setting books, something like 4e rules, 1e or 2e setting (Scorpion Coup to Clan Wars) seem like a very good combination.
However, I have also heard that the game became 'less Japanese' with later editions and that stuff like gender equality was missing in the 1st edition. Is this true?
The Secrets series are 2nd edition. The Way of the Clans books are the 1st ed ones. Much clan history and philosophy is to be found in those books and nowhere else.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's not a killkillkill game. Don't expect dungeon crawls. Combat is deadly. It's much more plotting/plot/RP orientated than most fantasy games. The combat makes WFRP look safe!
Oh, good. That's what I've been hearing.

*listens to discussion with interest*