How Much Damage Should An Iron Golem In A Roiling River of Lava Take?

[Ignatius]

Pretty much self explanatory.

Last night we spent 4 hours in the one encounter.

There were three iron golems and an elder black dragon vs dwarf artificer, tiefling warlock, dragonborn battlemind, drow avenger, and something else (we havent had a chance in game or out of game to talk to each other yet, so I honestly have no idea what the fifth player is. Some sort of elemental something with a billion different types of damage resistance and a little imp that follows him around).

So after taking around 400 hit points of damage in the encounter the battlemind finally fell unconcious in the final round before the last monster was killed with all of us only using at will powers (this was the second encounter of the day)

But... towards the beginning of the encounter the warlock used a power that can slide the target 12 squares and put the largest iron golem into the roiling river of lava. He spent two turns climbing out and rejoined the fight.

The only rule we could find on lava damage was 2d6 per round, but that seems a little light and we all decided from now we can just walk through lava and take the 12 damage out of our ~170hp.

Are we missing something? Other than DM says so.

[Techsmart]

Someone correct me if i am wrong.
the 2d6 is from exposure to lava. that means if it touches your hand, you take 2d6.
Immersion in lava is 20d6
Both deal half damage the round after you stop being exposed.

[Beelzebub1111]

Interesting...it specifies MAGICAL fire attacks for the healing property of iron golems. So I assume it would take damage same as everything else.

[hamishspence]

The most detailed 4E lava-related source so far is Draconomicon I: Chromatic dragons- (the red dragon volcano encounter), pages 134-141.

it has rules for the heat near lava, the damage done by lava, and so on.

It was basically:

"Take 20d6 ongoing fire damage upon falling into the magma, and for each round you remain in the magma.

If you extract yourself from the fiery mess, take 30 ongoing fire damage and are slowed (save ends both)."

[HunterOfJello]

I don't know if there's an official ruling on how much damage actual lava does.


However, in the original adventure White Plume Mountain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20030530b&page=1), being immersed in boiling hot water that was being heated by a lake of lava deals 10d6 damage per round. Considering that lava should be considerably more harmful than boiling water, I would suggest at least twice that amount of damage.

If a creature isn't immune to fire damage, they should probably die from 1 round of being immersed in lava. A slow loss of body parts should be allowed though, so losing your legs in round 1 and your torso in round 2 might be appropriate.


*edit*

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Environment


Lava Effects

Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.

Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning, below).

This is from the 3.5e SRD, but should be highly relevent for 4e at least for the purposes of understanding the scale of damage.

As stated above, if you're splashed with a little bit of lava, you take 2d6 damage per round. If you walk into lava then you take 20d6 damage per round. Immunity to fire keeps you immune to damage from lava, but you can drown, haha.

[hamishspence]

The phrase "a power that can slide the target 12 squares" was what led me to conclude this was for 4E.

The SRD is 3.5E.

Unless I'm wrong and it's a 3.5E adventure after all.

[AstralFire]

at-will and encounter powers are also mentioned.

I would really go with "100 damage every round of total immersion."

[Kylarra]

The phrase "a power that can slide the target 12 squares" was what led me to conclude this was for 4E.

The SRD is 3.5E.

Unless I'm wrong and it's a 3.5E adventure after all.Well there's also the at-will powers, battlemind and avenger mentions.

[Ignatius]

Yes, this is a 4E campaign.

[hamishspence]

Well there's also the at-will powers, battlemind and avenger mentions.

True.

20d6 damage every round till you get out of the lava seems like a good baseline though- it's interesting that both 3e and 4e picked that.

4e lingering effects of lava, if you roll your saves badly, might actually be worse in some ways than 3e lingering effects.

[Marnath]

yeah, 20d6 for immersion in lava is the only number I've seen. The question though is how deep does it have to be before it changes from "contact" to "immersion?" Because an Iron golem is like 12 feet tall right? I don't know RAW, but it sure seems like "immersion" would require at least 1/3 or 1/2 of your body to be in it.

[hamishspence]

the 4E dragon encounter didn't specify that character had to swim to get out- and the character takes full falling damage on hitting the lava.

It might be a case of it being dense enough that you stay on the surface when you hit, and can walk off (taking full damage for every round of walking.)

also, besides the full-blown magma chamber, there is a much smaller lava pool that is an azer forge.

"characters coming into contact with the forge take 20 fire damage plus ongoing 10 fire damage (save ends)"

Might do for momentary contact with small amounts of lava.

[Sir Swindle89]

the 4E dragon encounter didn't specify that character had to swim to get out- and the character takes full falling damage on hitting the lava.

It might be a case of it being dense enough that you stay on the surface when you hit, and can walk off (taking full damage for every round of walking.)

you should really take full falling damage from falling on water above a certain hight. just saying.

on the immersion thing. i'd say if you aren't not standing in lava you are immersed.

[Marnath]

the 4E dragon encounter didn't specify that character had to swim to get out- and the character takes full falling damage on hitting the lava.

It might be a case of it being dense enough that you stay on the surface when you hit, and can walk off (taking full damage for every round of walking.)

From what I've heard, lava is really stiff(it IS rock, even though it's molten) but I'd say you probably sink down in it after you hit, like some sort of really viscous quicksand. After all, if you can't sink in lava, why do the rules say a fire immune creature is still at risk of drowning under it? But then, it hardly matters because unprotected people in lava are probably going to die before they can get out.

[hamishspence]

The rules in 4E don't mention drowning in lava- though it is a reasonable interpretation.

Still, a person is much, much less dense than lava is- whereas for quicksand, people are comparable in density to water- which is what quicksand mostly is.

The person remaining on the top of the lava after hitting, in 4E might actually make more sense than them sinking.

The slowed effect is the lava on the person cooling and hardening the moment they climb out.

[Coidzor]

Well, should would probably be that the thing starts to get very hot and have its physical structure warp under its own weight and bulk until it melts.

Now how quickly it should get to this point, *shrug*

[Marnath]

O.o

Where did you hear that people are less dense than molten stone?

This is not the question I had in mind when I posted this. I'm not sure why I asked such a stupid thing. :smallconfused:

[AstralFire]

O.o

Where did you hear that people are less dense than molten stone?

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1999-11/943417499.Es.r.html

Density of water is 1, if memory serves, and humans have close-to-water density. Like 0.97 or something.

[Tyger]

O.o

Where did you hear that people are less dense than molten stone?

That would be... umm... reality?

Last I checked, a human body's density was no where near the density of rock.

EDIT: Swordsaged, and with numbers and SCIENCE no less. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Molten rock might be slightly less dense than solid rock- but it's not all that big a difference- certainly not enough to make it approach water density.

[Coidzor]

That would be... umm... reality?

Last I checked, a human body's density was no where near the density of rock.

EDIT: Swordsaged, and with numbers and SCIENCE no less. :smallbiggrin:

Ok, but the question was about an iron golem. Refined iron versus molten rock. Iron is generally more dense than stone, IIRC, especially after being forged, and melting the rock decreases the density by changing its state. Plus, weight and displacement are at play. A human body weighs much less than the molten rock it would displace by sinking into it, especially since it's being converted into carbon dioxide by virtue of immolating. An iron golem.... I wouldn't be so sure about.

[hamishspence]

But is an iron golem solid iron, or a shell? How heavy should a golem that size be if it was solid iron- and what's the listed weight for iron golems in 3E or 4E?

[Frozen_Feet]

It was an iron golem, so unless it was hollow, it's density would've been greater than that of molten rock, and it would've sunk. Also, while a human can walk on lava, it should be possible for the current to take them under, just like a current of salt water or sand does.

Of course, that usually isn't a problem, because a normal human burns to dust much before that.

[hamishspence]

12 ft tall and 5000 pounds are the listed figures for a 3.5 ed Large iron golem.

Seems heavy enough that sinking should be plausible- it does say it "climbed out" so maybe it grabbed on to the edge of the lava river?)

[Frozen_Feet]

Remember, there's also viscosity (etc.) to account for - a less dense substance can support one of greater density in right coniditions and/or form. :smallwink:

[Ignatius]

The DM ruled that the golem fell in, presumably landed on top and then climbed up the side of the dungeon wall up a level back to where we were.

The warlock was adamant that more damage and effects should have occurred but the only reference we could find was the 2d6 damage.

We are still in the same location though so maybe next encounter we will get some real damage done!

[hamishspence]

Even for just touching a shallow pool of it, there is the "20 fire damage + 10 ongoing fire damage (save ends)" rule-

so this could be used to support the view that lava will always do at least this much.

[Marnath]

That would be... umm... reality?

Last I checked, a human body's density was no where near the density of rock.

EDIT: Swordsaged, and with numbers and SCIENCE no less. :smallbiggrin:

That, uh... was not at all what I meant to ask, sorry. :smallredface:

What I meant to ask is why wouldn't you sink in lava? It might be dense, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'd float on it. What I'm envisioning is very thick, sticky mud. You sink way down to the bottom when you step in it, but it's very difficult to get your foot back. I'd think that lava would have about that consistency.

*edit: A quick google search tells me that lava has the consistency of wet concrete. I don't know how accurate that is, but it sounds right to me.

[mucat]

(pausing so catgirls can retreat to a safe distance before we talk physics.)


That, uh... was not at all what I meant to ask, sorry. :smallredface:

What I meant to ask is why wouldn't you sink in lava? It might be dense, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'd float on it.

Actually, it does. When immersed in any type of fluid, objects that are more sense than the fluid will sink downward, objects less dense than the fluid will float upward. ("Fluid" here includes gases as well as liquid; this is why helium balloons float upward, for example.)

A human wouldn't sink in lava, though they would have plenty of other problems to deal with.

[Tyger]

Ok, but the question was about an iron golem. Refined iron versus molten rock. Iron is generally more dense than stone, IIRC, especially after being forged, and melting the rock decreases the density by changing its state. Plus, weight and displacement are at play. A human body weighs much less than the molten rock it would displace by sinking into it, especially since it's being converted into carbon dioxide by virtue of immolating. An iron golem.... I wouldn't be so sure about.

Except, in the portion I quoted and was clearly responding to, the point was that a human body was less dense than a river of molten lava.

[Marnath]

(pausing so catgirls can retreat to a safe distance before we talk physics.)



Actually, it does. When immersed in any type of fluid, objects that are more sense than the fluid will sink downward, objects less dense than the fluid will float upward. ("Fluid" here includes gases as well as liquid; this is why helium balloons float upward, for example.)

A human wouldn't sink in lava, though they would have plenty of other problems to deal with.

What about the typical adventurer carrying between 20 and 80 pounds of steel armor and weapons?

[AstralFire]

What about the typical adventurer carrying between 20 and 80 pounds of steel armor and weapons?

Assuming 80 pounds that takes up zero volume (worst case scenario), and they normally weigh 240, you're increased your density by 33%. 1.33 < 2.x.

[Thrawn183]

My dad said that when he was in Hawaii and threw a rock at some lava that it just kinda stuck in it.

[Marnath]

Judging by how it looks when these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b6n8riJaFo) clowns are poking it, you'd sink right in if you were stupid enough to step off the cooled part.

[AstralFire]

Judging by how it looks when these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b6n8riJaFo) clowns are poking it, you'd sink right in if you were stupid enough to step off the cooled part.

Humans float in water. You also sink right into that if you're step into it.

[Marnath]

Humans float in water. You also sink right into that if you're step into it.

Corpses float, maybe. I sink right to the bottom. :smallconfused:

*edit: also, we are woefully off topic here. Oops?:smallredface:

[mucat]

Judging by how it looks when these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b6n8riJaFo) clowns are poking it, you'd sink right in if you were stupid enough to step off the cooled part.

All that video shows you is that lava is a liquid; no one is contesting that. But you seem to be badly misunderstanding how buoyant force works.


Corpses float, maybe. I sink right to the bottom. :smallconfused:

You sink because you are more dense than water. (Only a little more dense in this case; humans are right around the same density of water, so one person may naturally sink while another might naturally float.)

You are less dense than lava, so if you jumped in a pool of lava, you would float to the top. This would be marginally good news; at least you couldn't drown. (Protecting yourself from the temperature, on the other hand, is left as an exercise for the reader.)

None of this is speculative or even negotiable; it's simply the way things work.

[molten_dragon]

(pausing so catgirls can retreat to a safe distance before we talk physics.)



Actually, it does. When immersed in any type of fluid, objects that are more sense than the fluid will sink downward, objects less dense than the fluid will float upward. ("Fluid" here includes gases as well as liquid; this is why helium balloons float upward, for example.)

A human wouldn't sink in lava, though they would have plenty of other problems to deal with.

Actually, a solid object will partially sink into any liquid.

If the solid object is more dense than the liquid, it will sink completely.

If the solid object is less dense than the liquid, it will sink to a level where the amount of water that the sunken portion displaces weighs as much as the entire object.

A human body is about 95% the density of water, so that is why when you jump into a pool of water, the majority of you will sink under the surface, and and a small amount will stay above the surface.

If you could somehow avoid burning to death, you would find that you would float much higher in lava than you would in water.

[Ignatius]

So I spoke to our DM this morning and he said he gave the Golem 80 hp of damage over the two rounds, but 'next time' we can use the real rules!

The players all feel a bit ripped off, but at least we won the encounter and got some cool stuff from it, even if it did take us a long time.

[Marnath]

All that video shows you is that lava is a liquid; no one is contesting that. But you seem to be badly misunderstanding how buoyant force works.


No, you're just misunderstanding me. I'm not saying you'd sink to the bottom. There's a difference between floating higher in lava than water and floating on top of the lava, which wouldn't happen, as humans aren't that much less dense. You'd probably be somewhere in the waist deep range.

[hamishspence]

Actually, a solid object will partially sink into any liquid.

If the solid object is more dense than the liquid, it will sink completely.

If the solid object is less dense than the liquid, it will sink to a level where the amount of water that the sunken portion displaces weighs as much as the entire object.

A human body is about 95% the density of water, so that is why when you jump into a pool of water, the majority of you will sink under the surface, and and a small amount will stay above the surface.

There's also the speed of hitting the liquid, and stiffness of the liquid.

Fall into water, and you plunge under before rising to the surface.

Fall into lava- might it be stiff enough to take the shock, and the person not plunge all the way under at all?

[Marnath]

Actually Mucat, I've been arguing "sink" as in half to a third of the way, it's the other guy who misconstrued me. What I've been saying is that you'd sink in, not float on top.

*edit: aandd he's deleted his post. Wonderful. I swear I'm not crazy. :smalltongue:

[mucat]

No, you're just misunderstanding me. I'm not saying you'd sink to the bottom. There's a difference between floating higher in lava than water and floating on top of the lava, which wouldn't happen, as humans aren't that much less dense. You'd probably be somewhere in the waist deep range.

Oh, sure. In that case, yes, I was misunderstanding you. You wouldn't be entirely out of the lava; nothing ever floats that way. (Even styrofoam floating on water for example, will be partially submerged.)

A human is about 40% as dense as lava (varying a little depending on the composition of the lava), so they would come to equilibrium with 40% of their volume below the surface.


*edit: aandd he's deleted his post. Wonderful. I swear I'm not crazy. :smalltongue:

Deleted it because I'd been ninja'd by more posts on the same topic and wanted to address them better. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

Might depend on how fast they hit, and what the lava type is.

It might bend under the person- a bit like the way water does under a needle when it is placed horizontally on the surface, rather than it simply sinking in.

[Coidzor]

I'm more interested in if it would actually be possible for something immune to the damaging heat to pull itself out or if it'd be more like quicksand.

[Marnath]

I'm more interested in if it would actually be possible for something immune to the damaging heat to pull itself out or if it'd be more like quicksand.

We need to design a robot that can survive immersion in lava and find out. Quickly, to the lab! FOR SCIENCE!!

[Callista]

Not necessary. Just determine the viscosity of liquid rock, then figure out how long it would take you to sink. Is it more like mud or like water, or firmer, like play-doh?

[Marnath]

Not necessary. Just determine the viscosity of liquid rock, then figure out how long it would take you to sink. Is it more like mud or like water, or firmer, like play-doh?

Of course it's necessary. Robots are awesome!

[Callista]

...Well played.