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Xefas
2010-11-17, 07:07 PM
It is possible for a Green Sun Prince to invent their own charms, supplementing the "natural" charm trees of the Yozi. However, a Yozi is, more or less, just a big conglomeration of charms. Everything they are, everything they can do, is represented by the charms that they have. And thus, it is possible for a Green Sun Prince to alter what a Yozi is by creating new charms in their tree.

This is good for the Green Sun Prince who may support the Reclamation in theory - i.e. they want to release the Yozi into Creation so that they may rule as they rightfully did before the Gods and Exalts deposed them - but not support the Reclamation in its currently reality, which would mean turning everything into a blasted hell-world of unending tyranny and suffering.

And so, here I present some charms for redemption of the Yozi. I'm starting with a few for She Who Lives In Her Name, but if it's a popular idea, I plan to branch out into the other Yozi.

She Who Lives In Her Name

Redefinition of Congenial Perspective
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion, Pattern-Reassertion Touch

In the mind of She Who Lives In Her Name, the Master Plan and the Greater Good are above all else. She may care about others, but only in the sense that it would help her further her goals.

But, as the Principle of Hierarchy, she must know that, by definition of 'hierarchy', not all are created equally. It would be a gross miscalculation to lump everyone together as a simple 'tool'. At the very least, some tools are better than others. More like assistants, really. After all, She was not the only one to forge Creation. Her kin and her king participated as well, and without them, the Greater Good could not have been achieved. So, it follows that they should be cared for and protected against harm above others.

This charm modifies its prerequisites. The Infernal need no long spend Willpower to oppose the Greater Good instated by Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion if their actions are solely for the benefit of one or more of their positive Intimacies.

In addition, when activating Pattern-Reassertion Touch on a character for which the Infernal has a positive Intimacy, they may spend a Compassion Channel to lower the cost by 5m, 1wp. If they use the instantaneous function of this Charm on such a character, they spend 1 less mote to do so (or 1 less mote per level of damage healed, in the case of healing health levels via Wholeness Rightly Assumed).

Perfection By Example
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Tool-Transcending Constructs

Perfection exists within the Principle of Hierarchy. Were She alone, there would be no reason to create anything, as all that would be - would be Perfection. However, She is not alone. There is a vast, imperfect universe filled with a multitude of imperfect creatures. By creating, She shows others what Perfection is, that they might learn and be worthy of her.

When using a Craft ability to create a mundane item with a resource value equal to or lower than their Essence, that is not meant to be kept for oneself or sold for any amount of money, an Infernal always produces a Perfect-quality item without requiring a roll, so long as this charm's prerequisite is active.

With Essence 5+, created items become exceptionally difficult to break, with an additional (Essence x 10) hardness and soak, and requiring an additional (Essence x 5) difficulty to shatter with a feat of strength.

A second purchase at Essence 4+ also renders items created by this Charm immune to Shaping effects and the Chaos of the Wyld.

At Essence 6+, the created items becomes so perfect that they no longer age, rust, corrode, wear out, or require maintenance. Though they may still be intentionally broken.

A third purchase at Essence 7+ extends the benefits of the second purchase of this charm to all Artifacts that the Infernal crafts not specifically for themselves or for monetary gain.

Dutiful Forge-Maid Principle
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Redefinition of Congenial Perspective, Perfection by Example, Flames Lit Within

She Who Lives In Her Name is not the first in her own hierarchy. She serves her King above all others, and finds strength in that. Since the beginning of their reign, She has constructed at his behest and by his directives.

It is not weakness to have a servant's heart. To serve others is to acknowledge a greater purpose than your own selfish desires, and to allow your emotions to reach out and flow into the world around you. Those you serve gain strength from you and, in turn, you gain strength from them.

Whenever the Infernal constructs a Manse or an Artifact, using his Craft abilities, solely as a gift towards one of his positive intimacies (or at the express request from one of his positive intimacies), he may treat that Manse or Artifact as one dot less for the purposes of the difficulty of the craft roll and the number of successes that must be accrued (this has no effect on 1 dot manses and artifacts).

In addition, if they have successfully crafted a manse or an artifact of at least 3 dots, and successfully given it to the subject of their positive intimacy, they restore one expended Compassion Channel the first time that person attunes to the manse or activates the artifact from the pure joy of having served another and performed a job well.

Protect and Serve Ideology
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Dutiful Forge-Maid Principle, Precision Thought-Force Exercise

She Who Lives In Her Name has learned to care about others, and to serve them. However, something is still not right. If she, in her infinite perfection, values someone else, then their opinions must have some kind of value. And thus, those that they deem worthy to care about must also have some kind of value. And so on.

Eventually, the only way to avoid cognitive dissonance with one's own admittance of value outside one's own self is to recognize that everyone must have some sort of value. No one is worthless. No one but She Who Lives In Her Name is perfect, but no one is completely without merit. And in this new hierarchy of love and understanding, it is the duty of the Principle of Hierarchy to protect and serve the less fortunate. How can She do otherwise?

The Infernal is no longer bound by the restraints of Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion. He may always channel Virtue to supplement his Greater Good, but he need never spend Willpower to betray it as well. He is still devoted to the Greater Good, but he also has respect for the dignity and lives of other people, and sees them as complete beings with their own concerns, dreams, and valid motives.

In addition, when performing a Defend Other action with Precision Thought-Force Exercise, the Infernal may spend 5 motes and 1 Compassion Channel during Step 2 of any attack made against the defended character to perfectly parry all attacks made against them for 1 tick (unless they are also unblockable).

Prime Directive Download
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Mind Spider Curse

The Principle of Hierarchy has always considered Free Will as inherently flawed and meaningless. But how could it be? She, in her absolutely perfection, possesses free will. Thus, it must follow, that it is not the problem that people think at all - it is simply that they don't think as She does. It would be a crime to not allow them to share in her glory.

This charm augments its prerequisite. Instead of destroying all free will in the subjects, the Infernal instead create a new will for them based on the Infernal's own Motivation, his Urge, an Intimacy they have, or the Greater Good they derived from Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion. All subjects effected by a single use of Mind Spider Curse must be inflicted with the same will. This completely wipes out their current Motivation and Intimacies and implants a new Motivation, one positive Intimacy, and one negative Intimacy based on the above criteria (and, if the Infernal so chooses, an unbreakable Intimacy of obedient servitude towards the Infernal, the eroding of which is an unacceptable order for the subject). Their whole world-view from now on is shaped by these first decisions. Resisting these effects functions the same as resisting Mind Spider Curse.

Better Living Through Guilt
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Training
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Protect and Serve Ideology, Prime Directive Download

She Who Lives In Her Name realizes that, to force someone to think like Her, doesn't actually make them like Her. After all, She chose, in her indisputable perfection, to be the way She is. And She chose to do so based on perfect, indisputable logic, as She has always chosen to do everything. Therefore, surely, if She were to simply show Her thought processes to others, they would understand and make the right choice on their own.

This charm adds an additional function to Mind Spider Curse. In lieu of changing the affected subject's will, the Infernal may invoke an internal epiphany within them. This functions as mental influence in which the Infernal may use either (Intelligence or Charisma + Presence or Performance), and may substitute their Essence in place of their Appearance score. It is also undodgeable, as the subject is unable to turn away from the epiphany.

In this time, the Infernal appears in each individual's mind and shows them all the wrongs they have committed against others and the pain they have caused. They show them all the suffering in the world that goes unaided, and all the ways that the subject would be a better asset to the world should they choose to alleviate some of the misery. If everyone pitched in, it could truly be a perfect world.

This influence cost 2 Willpower to overcome, but if it is not, those affected grow an Intimacy: Everyone Less Fortunate Than I (Love and Caring), and they instantly gain a dot of Compassion (if it is not already 5) as a training effect. Someone who has already been successfully affected by this use of Mind Spider Curse may not be affected again by it for at least one week, after their built-up resistance to guilt has subsided somewhat.

Solecism Purged in Crystal Flames
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Better Living Through Guilt, Will-Crushing Force

If the Principle of Hierarchy shows someone the way to perfection, they are still weighed down by their prior imperfections. They were not always perfect, like She has been, and to be perfect as She is, one must have always been perfect.

This charm adds two additional options for Will-Crushing Force. Instead of draining one Willpower from a victim, the Infernal may either have a single random negative Intimacy or mental derangement of the target made known to him, or he may force the subject to come to terms with their issues. This second effect targets one negative Intimacy or mental derangement of the subject's that is known to the Infernal and either counts as a scene devoted to getting rid of that Intimacy or entirely purges the derangement from their mind (respectively).

Should the subject be willing and give consent (either verbally or mentally as the Infernal invades their mind), the Infernal may also purge any or all of the memories associated with a negative Intimacy or derangement that this charm has rid them of.

By purging a negative Intimacy or mental derangement from someone that the Infernal has a positive Intimacy for, the Infernal regains one expended Compassion Channel as they rejoice in the strengthening of their circle of friends.

Cleansing the Hierarchy
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Solecism Purged in Crystal Flames, Heuristic Logos Shintai

The Principle of Hierarchy is her own hierarchy of souls, and where they go, She must, and where She goes, they must. As she is gradually cleaned, so are her souls, and as they are clean, so too does she come closer to full redemption.

By taking this charm, the Infernal chooses one Third Circle Demon of She Who Lives In Her Name that is not her Fetich Soul. That demon is redefined. It is no longer a Creature of Darkness, nor is it, indeed, a demon at all. It is a deva, the name for the souls of the Primordials before their titanic fall. So, too, are all of its Second Circle Souls redeemed, and while the First Circle Souls they have made remain demons, any new ones they create are formed as devas.

As a deva, these souls are not barred from Creation and may come and go between it and Malfeas as they please. The Loom no longer registers them as demons (because they aren't), so they could even enter Yu-Shan undetected if they chose.

If the Infernal summons a deva of the Principle of Hierarchy using Sorcerous Enlightenment of She Who Lives In Her Name, it costs 10 less motes to summon, and the Infernal may expend a Compassion Channel when doing so to reduce its Willpower cost to zero. Also, keep in mind that these devas are not bound by the restrictions upon summoning demons, and thus may be summoned any time of the day and any time of the year.

This charm may be purchased up to fifteen times amongst all living Infernals, once for each Third Circle Soul of She Who Lives In Her Name, redeeming a new one each time. Once the fifteenth purchase has been taken, the Infernal may (and must) finally choose her Fetich Soul.

However, this last purchase does not instantly redeem her Fetich Soul. The Infernals that participated in cleansing the hierarchy must first journey to Malfeas and slay the Fetich Soul of She Who Lives In Her Name. All Infernals with one or more purchases of Cleansing the Hierarchy instinctively know how many Third Circle Souls have been cleansed at any given time, and know that they must work together with all other participants to finally kill the Fetich Soul.

Upon doing so, the essence of the Fetich flows around the Infernals and explodes upward in a geyser, shattering straight through the barrier between Malfeas and Creation and bringing with it both the Infernals and all the devas of the Principle of Hierarchy that still remain in Malfeas. The geyser of essence explodes outward into Creation, releasing all of the darkness in the former-Yozi in a massive shower of shooting stars blacker than the night sky. This is an Essence 10 Blasphemy effect that resonates throughout the entirety of Creation and Yu-Shan, rumbling the Loom of Fate with the birthpains of a new Primordial.

The Infernals are deposited at a place of their choosing, with a fully formed Primordial standing directly in front of them, with full memory of what the Infernals have done for her. At this point, the Infernals may choose to ally themselves with the new Primordial. It will sever the invisible chords tying the Infernals' exaltations to Lillun, and instead bind it to itself. After death, the Infernals' exaltations will be sent to the Primordial to be cared for and cleansed. It will no longer strictly be an "Infernal" exaltation, instead becoming something new - no longer a creature of darkness or subject to the mad Torment of the titans. The Primordial's essence will henceforth serve the same function as Lytek's Cabinet for the Exaltation, servicing it when it is not in a mortal host, and sending it out to find heroic individuals afterward.

This Exaltation will either have this new Primordial's charm tree as its Caste Primordial if it was formerly a Defiler, or as a Favored Primordial if it was of a different caste. Defilers will have to find other Primordials to draw charms from (such as Autochthon or Gaia) before it may have a Favored Primordial.

Non-Defilers will have the appropriate Yozi as its Caste charm-tree, but if it takes a single charm from a Yozi tree, it becomes a Creature of Darkness again for that current incarnation. That is, unless the other Yozi are cleansed as well.

Ebon Dragon

Confront The Devil
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Inner Devils Unchained

Transforming a pitiful mortal into a wretched slave composed of pure, disfigured evil is all well and good, but it is a dire shame that they are not aware of it. Their old consciousness will never know the pain of their existence, and that is not a mercy the Ebon Dragon is willing to impart.

This charm modifies the Essence 4+ use of Inner Devils Unchained. After a mortal is transformed into their demon counterpart, their consciousness awakens in a tiny extra-dimensional dungeon that exists only within their insensate essence. While their body remains a demon, the manifest inner darkness of their being appears and will tirelessly torture them both mentally and physically - brutally lashing them and invoking diatribes constructed from the most humiliating and painful memories that only one's self could devise.

For every person inflicted with this terrible fate, the Infernal regains 1 mote per hour as they feed from the horror and despair they have wrought on the weak and innocent. They may gain a maximum of (Essence x 2) motes per hour from this charm.

Even so, there is a faint glimmer of hope for a mortal trapped in such a place. For every month they remain ensnared, the mortal may make a (mortal's essence + highest virtue) roll at difficulty 4. Should they succeed, they break the bonds holding them in their prison and confront their devil on even footing. At that point, they will kill their devil, consigning it to the deepest recesses of their soul unless they succeed on another (essence + highest virtue) roll at difficult 4.

Should a mortal kill their devil, their essence explodes, shattering the dungeon holding them and reverting their body to its rightful form in a shining cascade of white light. They are now a Heroic Mortal with Essence 2 and the Awakened Essence abomination (pg 63 of MoEP: Infernals). If they did not already have both Essence 2 and enlightened essence, they also gain a variant of the Aura of Power deformity due to the rapid change in Essence. Rather than baleful green light, their new anima banner is a pure white conflagration. Finally, they choose a virtue to be their primary virtue (it must be their highest or tied for highest). They now have an intimacy of Zeal (Acting With [Primary Virtue]), and if their motivation was not suitably epic enough for a heroic mortal, they rewrite it of their own volition, though it must be in line with their primary virtue.

Should a mortal have the beneficence, wisdom, or extraordinary self-respect to spare their inner devil in the face of all of its wickedness, recognizing it as part of themselves and something that should be recognized and dealt with, rather than dismissed and forgotten, they gain an even stronger inner enlightenment. In addition to the above benefits, they also gain a permanent dot in a virtue of their choice, a permanent dot of willpower, and an additional favored ability. This always results in the variant Aura of Power deformity.

These modifications to the mortal are not a training effect and do not invoke experience debt.

The Essence 5+ effect of Inner Devils Unchained no longer kills the target - it simply alters the duration of the charm to instant, permanently sealing the victim unless they free themselves of their own volition.

Malfeas

All The World Is a Stage
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Beauty Without Malice

The world knows its king. When he rages, it recoils. When he creates, it molds to his intentions. When he dances, it supplies the music.

Whenever the Infernal activates the 5 mote surcharge on Beauty Without Malice, the world feels the pulse of their king's essence and responds. Nearby objects begin to supply music in whatever form they can. Erymanthoi might spontaneously burst into a baritone chorus, roads might supply a percussive beat by slamming cobblestones together, nearby birds will flock in beautiful patterns overhead, tweeting melodiously; all of them perfectly coordinated with each other and with the dance of the Infernal, fading out when he discontinues his performance.

Such displays warm the heart of all those who witness it, including the Infernal. Feelings of anger, guilt, or resentment wash away, allowing them to think clearly, if only for a short time. This experience is unique to each individual, and thus they voluntarily choose either an intimacy they have that they wish they didn't, using this performance as a scene dedicated to shirking said intimacy, or an intimacy they wish they had but they don't, using this performance as a scene dedicated to gaining it. Choices must be appropriate to the theme of this charm - a man could erode his positive intimacy for spousal abuse, but not his positive intimacy for the happiness of his children.

The first time this charm is learned, the Green Sun feels a grave disturbance in the force and gains 1 limit.

Sleeping Beauty
Cost: 4m; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Reflexive
Keywords: -
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Nightmare Fugue Vigilance, All The World Is a Stage

Malfeas has not voluntarily slept in many centuries, for if he is awake, he may dance to alleviate his all-consuming sorrow and pain, but if he is asleep, he may know only nightmares. No longer. This charm allows him to project one of his jouten, the Brass Dancer, into the slumbering mind of his primary jouten, the Demon City. As an immaterial sprite, it may guide his dreams from the horrifying to the fanciful, and when he does awake, the memories of these phantom performances linger for a time.

When an Infernal with this charm gets a good night's rest, he may choose to dream of dances so profound and earth-shattering that they distract him from the horror of his nightmares, negating the -1 penalty to his roll to regain Willpower. When he does so, he subconsciously and reflexively activates this charm (assuming he does not already have an instance of it activated). By doing this, he makes a single (Charisma + Performance) roll, which may only be modified by First Malfeas Excellency and charms that modify First Malfeas Excellency (such charms may modify this roll even without a combo). He then records the results.

While the motes are committed, if the Infernal surveys the results of a performance roll involving dancing, and finds them lacking, he may replace the results with the recorded results from his dream-roll. Just as he begins to falter, the limitless power of Malfeas surges through him, converting failure into success. This releases the committed motes and ends the charm.

Forever after this charm is learned for the first time, the Green Sun's dreams are filled with nothing but scenes of him dancing with unrestrained whimsy and passion upon a stage in front of a packed audience. As he awakens in a cold sweat, the horrors fresh in his mind, his roll to regain willpower is made at a -1 penalty.

Primal Fury
2010-11-17, 08:32 PM
You'd probably get a lot more feedback if you posted these on the Exalted boards.

That said, it's hard to evaluate these charms, as redefining a Yozi is tricky business. I like what you did with Dutiful Maid-Forge Principle, gives her a good counter-part to Wonder Forging Genius.

There's nothing mechanically unsightly here, but I'm not sure about it thematically.

gkathellar
2010-11-17, 08:50 PM
My only complaint is story-related.

This makes redeeming the Yozi too easy. Having your Infernal develop some new Essence 3-5 charms is not the appropriate way to change an Essence 10 titanic demon god. The path to that goal should be epic even by Exalted standards, even more so than killing one. These charms might result from the end of that quest, or from steps taken along it, but if you make them into a means rather than and end you're making something that should be worthy of the mightiest Exalted solvable with Essence 5 and 24 experience points.

The Tygre
2010-11-17, 09:49 PM
You're not the first to tackle the concept. I've got some charms I found on RPG.net, if you like, and I'd say that you'd probably have better luck there. Seriously, Exalted Mecca, my friend. But down to business; I'd have to say that these need to be a little more difficult. At the very least, you're talking about doing the impossible. That has to way in at at least an Essence 4 entry requirement, moving up.

InfiniteNothing
2010-11-17, 09:50 PM
Hmm... This is interesting. Keep it up. I'd like to see more charms per Yozi, though. While I don't agree that the redemption of one Yozi should be an uber-epic quest, redeeming all of them certainly falls under that category. 'Course, that doesn't mean that redeeming one Yozi will be easy, either. It'll definately take more than four Charms.

Xefas
2010-11-17, 09:58 PM
You'd probably get a lot more feedback if you posted these on the Exalted boards.

But Giant In the Playground is only a conglomeration of threads. By doing my part to spread Exalted and make Exalted threads, I will eventually turn the Giant Forum into an Exalted Forum!

Tremble before my grand, sinister Motivation, finally revealed to the world!

Also, thank you for the feedback. :smallsmile: I may sign up for the White Wolf forums and post it there as well.



This makes redeeming the Yozi too easy. Having your Infernal develop some new Essence 3-5 charms is not the appropriate way to change an Essence 10 titanic demon god.

Well, I don't intend for these to be the only four charms I make for She Who Lives In Her Name. This is just the beginning. She has quite a few other malevolent charms or sets of charms that need redemption. For instance, if you just took these four, sure, she might start to see other people as valuable, but that might just turn her into a creepy dystopian dictator who uses Will-Crushing Force and Mind Spider Curse to turn "bad" people into puppets, as well as Space Monster Scream to blow up dissenters with blasts of pure horror.

After each set of particularly horrifying charms are redeemed, then I'll get into the Essence 6+ charms that go about making her not so...broken and yozi-ish, and possibly passing on her enlightenment to her subsidiary souls - maybe transforming them from demons into devas. Rest assured that it's not supposed to be something you can do overnight. I just didn't want to make 20+ charms, post them up, have no one respond and then :smallfrown:. So I made 4 as an example.

EDIT: Whoops, I was typing when you posted:


I've got some charms I found on RPG.net, if you like, and I'd say that you'd probably have better luck there.

Sure, I'd love to get a link. I figured someone had done it before, but couldn't find anything to that affect. Maybe my works are in vain! As for the rest, see above.


It'll definately take more than four Charms.

See Above.

Xefas
2010-11-18, 02:40 AM
Added some more. Turns out it came to 22 charm purchases and the killing of a Yozi to redeem a Primordial. Thoughts?

horngeek
2010-11-18, 03:12 AM
Hmmm. Interesting.

It does, however, occur to me that multiple Infernals should be able to purchase Cleansing the Heirachy, their purchases should be added together, and in addition, they should share in the direct benefits (i.e. the new Primordal becomes what all their Exaltations are bound to).

That said: this is actually very interesting. It does turn SWLIHN into... still focused on heirachy, but a gentler heirachy. I like the concept, don't know about rules.

Xefas
2010-11-18, 03:37 AM
It does, however, occur to me that multiple Infernals should be able to purchase Cleansing the Heirachy, their purchases should be added together, and in addition, they should share in the direct benefits (i.e. the new Primordal becomes what all their Exaltations are bound to).

Oooo, good point. I like the potential for that. Added in mention of that being possible.

That said: this is actually very interesting. It does turn SWLIHN into... still focused on hierarchy, but a gentler hierarchy.

That's the idea :smallbiggrin:. I'm glad that comes across, as it's my primary goal. I don't want them to change too terribly much - just become benevolent in their methods and intentions.

I got special plans for the Ebon Dragon. Obviously, he just wouldn't be the Ebon Dragon if I gave him any virtues or made him not a bastard, so I've got to make him a benevolent force in Creation while still being a complete ass without any redeeming qualities. I think it can be done...

horngeek
2010-11-18, 04:58 AM
To be honest, I'd say the ED is impossible to redeem in this way, because villainy is his sctick. It is his defining feature, and without that, he is not anything like the Ebon Dragon. It's not in his nature to be a benevolent force. He can't do it.

Heck, I read one of the 'So Speaks' Author's quotes on the Exalted Unofficial Wiki, and they were getting at the point that the ED didn't try to be awesome, he tried to ruin everyone else's awesomeness.

gkathellar
2010-11-18, 06:32 AM
Well, I don't intend for these to be the only four charms I make for She Who Lives In Her Name. This is just the beginning. She has quite a few other malevolent charms or sets of charms that need redemption. For instance, if you just took these four, sure, she might start to see other people as valuable, but that might just turn her into a creepy dystopian dictator who uses Will-Crushing Force and Mind Spider Curse to turn "bad" people into puppets, as well as Space Monster Scream to blow up dissenters with blasts of pure horror.

After each set of particularly horrifying charms are redeemed, then I'll get into the Essence 6+ charms that go about making her not so...broken and yozi-ish, and possibly passing on her enlightenment to her subsidiary souls - maybe transforming them from demons into devas. Rest assured that it's not supposed to be something you can do overnight. I just didn't want to make 20+ charms, post them up, have no one respond and then :smallfrown:. So I made 4 as an example.

Yeah, but the issue is still that you're making Yozi redemption into an experience-point expenditure. Unless these charms are fantastically hard to get a hold of, or they result from the redemption rather than the other way around, that's a problem.

Also, I'm not sure it's thematically appropriate than the Exalted can do things like redefine their power type before Essence 6. In one of the newer releases I can't recall the name of (possibly Glories of the Most High or the new Errata or one of the Ink Monkeys releases), they explain that Essence 6-10 is where the Exalted surpass their own Exaltation and do things their creators never intended for them to do. That sounds pretty much exactly like these charms.

Also, depending on the culture you're referencing, deva means demon.

EDIT:


To be honest, I'd say the ED is impossible to redeem in this way, because villainy is his schtick.

Seconded.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 09:28 AM
Cleansing the Hierarchy
...You don't get to take things off of Sol's "List of Things I Hate". That's not how it works. And you don't get to mess with the Surrender Oaths like that. You... might want to rethink this in its entirety.

Rikandur Azebol
2010-11-18, 04:18 PM
Not really Primal Fury, since by slaying Fetich soul, Yozi becames something new (and by default it didn't swore no oaths nor any god is barred from attacking). And 15 Essence 10 infernals serve as conduit to faciliate the change into something else. And since the "Reincarnated" Primodial isn't in US's small black list (yet) the door is open.

Nothing stops the US from taking HUGE offense for the Infernals's actions though ... and I wouldn't relase the Ex-Yozi from Malfeas that easily. Actual travel trough Cecelyne is in order, or other mode of transportation. But new Primodial entering Creation might be cause some ... tense moments. Heck, return of Gaia WILL cause unknown consequences !

Also I would dare to say that Infernals couldn't be changed without anything less than 3rd circle sorcery effect. Just like the Void Circle Necromancy that transforms Solar into the Abyssal. This or reincarnation followed with New Primodial tinkering with Exaltations to fit it's tastes. :smallwink:

And You wonder why all new Exalts working for She Who Giggles In Her Name look like Teletubbies.:smallbiggrin:

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 04:33 PM
Not really Primal Fury, since by slaying Fetich soul, Yozi becames something new (and by default it didn't swore no oaths nor any god is barred from attacking). And 15 Essence 10 infernals serve as conduit to faciliate the change into something else. And since the "Reincarnated" Primodial isn't in US's small black list (yet) the door is open.
This point has been disputed before, and people still can't agree on it. But I'm inclined to speak against it, since the Yozi could have just killed each others Fetiches and get out just like that. If that hole actually existed in the Surrender Oaths, then it would have been exploited.

Also, if Sol's list says "Every Primordial except Gaia and Autochthon" then yes, they're still on the list.

Rikandur Azebol
2010-11-18, 04:48 PM
As for US "Hate List" ... from what I read I'm under impression that he writes only those hostile to Creation on it. Wyld might contain numbers of Primodials who aren't hostile, right ? And US is trying to be fair, just like Ebon Dragon is working extra hard on being unfair.

And ... slaying Fetich changes the Primodial ... but compare it with major invasive brain surgery. Would You undergo it when able to chicken out ? Take note that if example Primodial's other souls weren't changed earlier, Fetich slaughter will change the Yozi only by a fraction compared to complete over-haul involved in the process involving change of all other souls, too. Not to mention that Yozi might still feel a little hysterical when someone with sharp objects goes near their precious lil souls. They KNOW that becaming Neverborn is much, much worse than mild discomforts inflicted on them by the vile Unconcquered Sun traitor.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 04:56 PM
As for US "Hate List" ... from what I read I'm under impression that he writes only those hostile to Creation on it. Wyld might contain numbers of Primodials who aren't hostile, right ? And US is trying to be fair, just like Ebon Dragon is working extra hard on being unfair.
HA! That's funny. The Unconquered Sun's list includes all those, sure, but also things that he just plain doesn't like. He could declare everyone named "George" a Creature of Darkness if he wanted. Only his personal feelings matter, not whether they're a threat to Creation.


And ... slaying Fetich changes the Primodial ... but compare it with major invasive brain surgery. Would You undergo it when able to chicken out ? Take note that if example Primodial's other souls weren't changed earlier, Fetich slaughter will change the Yozi only by a fraction compared to complete over-haul involved in the process involving change of all other souls, too. Not to mention that Yozi might still feel a little hysterical when someone with sharp objects goes near their precious lil souls. They KNOW that becaming Neverborn is much, much worse.
The Exalted knew how much Fetich death would change Primordials, they subjected most of them to it upon their surrender. Of course they'd think "Hm... They might get back out if they kill their Fetiches again, let's make sure that doesn't happen". I refuse to believe they were too stupid to think of that. If they WERE, then they deserved the Usurpation, and the return of the pissed off Primordials, who will be even more broken and insane thanks to their Fetich deaths.

gkathellar
2010-11-18, 05:09 PM
Also I would dare to say that Infernals couldn't be changed without anything less than 3rd circle sorcery effect. Just like the Void Circle Necromancy that transforms Solar into the Abyssal. This or reincarnation followed with New Primodial tinkering with Exaltations to fit it's tastes.

In canon, Infernals can't be "redeemed" to Solar status, but if Lytek got a hold of an Infernal Exaltation he could change it back pretty easily. Unlike the Abyssal/Solar transition, it's not just a matter of adding or purifying Underworld Essence - Infernals are pretty similar to Solars, but they're fine-tuned differently. You can change an inactive Exaltation by changing the tuning, but not an active Exalt.

InfiniteNothing
2010-11-18, 08:47 PM
Hey, anybody? Where am I supposed to find Flames Lit Within, Precision Thought-Force Exercise, Mind Spider Curse, and Heuristic Logos Shintai?

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 09:20 PM
From the beautiful majesty that is the Broken Winged Crane. It's available on Drivethru RPG for 5 bucks.

Xefas
2010-11-18, 10:33 PM
I appreciate Rikandur supporting me, but here is me weighing in:


To be honest, I'd say the ED is impossible to redeem in this way, because villainy is his sctick. It is his defining feature, and without that, he is not anything like the Ebon Dragon. It's not in his nature to be a benevolent force. He can't do it.

I know. And he's still going to be a villain without benevolent aims. It's hard for me to explain before I actually write up the charms, which I think will speak for themselves. I suppose the best example I can think of at the moment would be, if you've read Scott Pilgrim: Nega Scott. A blob of pure evil, embodying every single negative trait you have and absolutely none of the positive. And meeting him ends up making you a better person even though he's still pure evil.


Yeah, but the issue is still that you're making Yozi redemption into an experience-point expenditure. Unless these charms are fantastically hard to get a hold of, or they result from the redemption rather than the other way around, that's a problem.

It's not just experience-point expenditure. It's developing custom charms (which are intended to be a rather personal experience that your character is driven towards unless you're playing the game on a purely meta level), along with storming Malfeas and fighting a Fetich Soul + how ever many epic baddies are guarding it.

Sure, it's an easier time than a Solar might have, but that's intentional. The Manual: Infernals specifically states that it's easy for an Infernal to alter their Yozi patrons. It even says the Yozi made it that way intentionally because they wanted an opportunity to gain new charms and subsume additional concepts because they're unable to think outside of their own box.

On top of that you have an epic quest fit for a campaign-long finale. I'm not sure what else you could want.


Also, I'm not sure it's thematically appropriate than the Exalted can do things like redefine their power type before Essence 6. ...they explain that Essence 6-10 is where the Exalted surpass their own Exaltation and do things their creators never intended for them to do. That sounds pretty much exactly like these charms.

The actual cleansing charm is Essence 6. And page 101 of the Infernal book states that this is not only one of the things specifically intended by their creators for them to be able to do, but the Ebon Dragon was able to convince the other four Reclamation Yozi to join him by agreeing to let the Infernals have the power to change them. They want to change. It was built into the Infernal Exaltation to have the power to change the Yozi.


Also, depending on the culture you're referencing, deva means demon.

Not my word. In 'The Voice of the Magnus', it's stated that Primordial Souls are referred to as Devas instead of Demons. I suppose how canonical that is depends on how much you think the Ink Monkeys are canon. Here's a thread from the White Wolf forums about that. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/37500.aspx?PageIndex=1)


...You don't get to take things off of Sol's "List of Things I Hate". That's not how it works.

For one, technically, Infernals can put people on and take people off The List by Essence 3 by manipulating mutations. If you don't think that counts, then let me ask you this: Do you have a better reason that someone can't be taken off the list of Creatures of Darkness than "just cause"? If not, I find it hard to consider that the same people capable of turning themselves into Super-Primordials (with less charms than this takes) are incapable of altering a simple distinction.


And you don't get to mess with the Surrender Oaths like that. You... might want to rethink this in its entirety.

Next you'll be saying that an Infernal can't buy an Essence 6 charm that allows them to hack their own Exaltation and rewrite Autochthon's programming to create their own Caste and Anima.

Things change. Just because - no, specifically because - they say it's impossible: That's why Exalts can do it. And messing with Surrender Oaths isn't even impossible-tier. The Ebon Dragon does it. There's a whole book about that. And he didn't even have to be redefined into a new individual to shirk it, either, which is what Fetich Death would do. I think you're massively understating this undertaking to protect a sacred cow that doesn't even exist.

Xefas
2010-11-18, 10:40 PM
The Exalted knew how much Fetich death would change Primordials, they subjected most of them to it upon their surrender. Of course they'd think "Hm... They might get back out if they kill their Fetiches again, let's make sure that doesn't happen". I refuse to believe they were too stupid to think of that. If they WERE, then they deserved the Usurpation, and the return of the pissed off Primordials, who will be even more broken and insane thanks to their Fetich deaths.

Also, about this, the Exalted put in the oaths that the Yozi were not able to kill their own Fetich Souls nor the Fetich Souls of the other Yozi, just in case they got desperate enough to do it (this applies to all their subsidiary souls, and presumable, Akuma).

But still, other than that, it'd be like committing suicide. You don't get free. You die. Then, someone who looks kinda like you gets free. That's not a winning exchange. The Yozi want to be free - not some douchebag that looks like them and talks like them.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 11:25 PM
For one, technically, Infernals can put people on and take people off The List by Essence 3 by manipulating mutations. If you don't think that counts, then let me ask you this: Do you have a better reason that someone can't be taken off the list of Creatures of Darkness than "just cause"? If not, I find it hard to consider that the same people capable of turning themselves into Super-Primordials (with less charms than this takes) are incapable of altering a simple distinction.
...People get added to the list simply by dying and becoming ghosts. If you become a thing that is on his Hate List, then boom: CoD. It's only when you take things off that's the problem. It's not their decision whether or not they can stop being CoDs. If Sol says "You're on my Hate List" then you just... are, you can't really do anything about it other than convince him (or a Solar of sufficient might) to take you off (which really isn't that difficult). It's got nothing to do with your own personal power, it has to do with what the Unconquered Sun thinks of you. Nothing more. Nothing less.


Next you'll be saying that an Infernal can't buy an Essence 6 charm that allows them to hack their own Exaltation and rewrite Autochthon's programming to create their own Caste and Anima.
That's got nothing to do with anything.


Things change. Just because - no, specifically because - they say it's impossible: That's why Exalts can do it. And messing with Surrender Oaths isn't even impossible-tier. The Ebon Dragon does it. There's a whole book about that. And he didn't even have to be redefined into a new individual to shirk it, either, which is what Fetich Death would do. I think you're massively understating this undertaking to protect a sacred cow that doesn't even exist.
It should take more than a few charm purchases to do something like this. This should be BEYOND charms. The same way you can't sit in Elsewhere and make charms that wither the Yozi into suck, you can't sit in Elsewhere and make charms that free the Yozi from what's meant to be eternal imprisonment. It should NOT be that simple.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 11:27 PM
Also, about this, the Exalted put in the oaths that the Yozi were not able to kill their own Fetich Souls nor the Fetich Souls of the other Yozi, just in case they got desperate enough to do it (this applies to all their subsidiary souls, and presumable, Akuma).

But still, other than that, it'd be like committing suicide. You don't get free. You die. Then, someone who looks kinda like you gets free. That's not a winning exchange. The Yozi want to be free - not some douchebag that looks like them and talks like them.
And? The Exalted still wouldn't want whatever douchebags the Yozi became getting out if they somehow suffered Fetich death, would they?

horngeek
2010-11-18, 11:37 PM
It should take more than a few charm purchases to do something like this. This should be BEYOND charms. The same way you can't sit in Elsewhere and make charms that wither the Yozi into suck, you can't sit in Elsewhere and make charms that free the Yozi from what's meant to be eternal imprisonment. It should NOT be that simple.

You... can't. Read the Charms, please. You specifically have to kill the Fetish Soul Third Circle Demon in order to free SWLIHN.

This IS beyond just Charms.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 11:40 PM
It's also supposed to be beyond Fetich death.

horngeek
2010-11-18, 11:41 PM
What do you think it should take, then? Would this be accepted if it stated the Charm actually forces that that was SWLIHN through Lethe and back that way?

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 11:45 PM
Return of the Scarlet Empress is a good example. Some grand, incredibly convoluted plan that was set in motion centuries ago that takes just as long to come to fruition.

Hell, to the writers tell it, the Yozi should NEVER be able to get out. They should be stuck in Hell forever, with no hope of escape. I don't know if I agree with that, but that's canon (sort of).

InfiniteNothing
2010-11-18, 11:45 PM
Okay, could we please move beyond this squabbling? Primal, if you don't like the charms and associated concepts, don't use them in your game. Noone's forcing you to use them. The whole point of homebrew content is for it to be optional for each ST. Capiche?

Now, can we please move on from the topic of 'is this possible' to the mechanics of the charms and seeing ones for the other Yozis? Honestly, I'm starting to get sick of the rut we're getting in.

Primal Fury
2010-11-18, 11:48 PM
Would this be accepted if it stated the Charm actually forces that that was SWLIHN through Lethe and back that way?
Eh... It's already been stated that the Lethe is insufficient to recycle Primordial essence, that's why we have the Neverborn. Now! If you were to break into Yu-Shan, and make the necessary modifications to the Lethe, then journey back to Hell to kill the Yozi (the actual Yozi, not the Fetich) with Ghost Eating Technique or a similar effect, THEN you might be on to something. This goes beyond mere Fetich death, and might create a wholly different Primordial completely unassociated with it's previous incarnation.

Tavar
2010-11-19, 12:10 AM
Return of the Scarlet Empress is a good example. Some grand, incredibly convoluted plan that was set in motion centuries ago that takes just as long to come to fruition.

Hell, to the writers tell it, the Yozi should NEVER be able to get out. They should be stuck in Hell forever, with no hope of escape. I don't know if I agree with that, but that's canon (sort of).
That's...not true. What's sort of cannon is that the reclamation as it stands is doomed to fail, because it's an extremely convoluted plan managed by a committee of sociopaths(the yozi). The idea is that by the time the Infernals really get their feet underneath themselves and get the plan on track, they'll realize just how nuts these guys really are, and will tell them to go stuff themselves. And unlike the Abyssals, the controls aren't going to make them automatically further their master's plan.

Also, that plan is to get out as they currently are. Remember, the reason they were maimed is because an unmaimed Primordial may have been able to get around the oath somehow. Heck, even maimed Oramus might have been able to get around it, so they devised additional methods to keep him in check.

Now, they Yozi can't change themselves, but that's the whole point of the Infernals. They aren't bound by the oaths or the various other problems that the Yozi face. So they can change the Yozi. And these charms don't automatically change them. They simply give the Infernal the capability to change them, if they proceed to accomplish suitably epic deeds(Fetich Souls are 3rd circle, are they not?).

Regarding the ability to cease being a Creature of Darkness; what happens if a Abyssal Redeems him/herself and becomes a solar? Is he/she still a CoD or not?

Xefas
2010-11-19, 12:52 AM
Okay, could we please move beyond this squabbling? Primal, if you don't like the charms and associated concepts, don't use them in your game. Noone's forcing you to use them. The whole point of homebrew content is for it to be optional for each ST. Capiche?

Now, can we please move on from the topic of 'is this possible' to the mechanics of the charms and seeing ones for the other Yozis? Honestly, I'm starting to get sick of the rut we're getting in.

I agree - thank you for being the voice of reason :smallsmile:.

I put up the first charm for Malfeas. My first thought was to put this effect further down the tree, and I still might, but I've always held the opinion that no one can solve their problems if they're tired. All healing begins with a good night's sleep.

EDIT: I'm really starting to regret not reserving a few posts now...

aetherialDawn
2010-11-19, 01:23 AM
I personally think that the charms are a good idea. In order to make the proper impact upon Swirly, you would need many Infernals taking these charms - and to get her possibly-good, instead of 'No longer AUTOMATICALLY hateful' you need to destroy a Third-Circle Demon Fetich soul that owns one-third of your soul (In a very vague, non-oath-breaking fashion, yessir, but still there.) And, if you're a Defiler, your incarnations lose a favored Yozi until you can convince someone to give you a hand, although Autochthon would probably approve of the new craft-friendly charms.

I think any ST using this ought to add in a major extra step, but I support having that be a purely story concern. Maybe Swirly can't be killed properly because, among other things, that would eliminate physics for a while. Bad things happen. Who can you find that can take on the burden of Physics for enough time for her to get redefined? What if she remembers the Three Spheres Cataclysm and starts committing suicide, again and again, driven by guilt until she reforms as a concept that doesn't care? What if her loss leaves a hole in Malfeas and Cecyclene that needs patching?

As for 'redeeming' the Ebon Dragon... I'm really not sure. It would take some serious redefining to get him to the point where he's willing to show people how much they suck as their inner darkness to *fix* them... However, he might be able to be cast as the Push to the Unconquered Sun's Pull. The next question after that huge undertaking is: What does Five Days Darkness do about that? Perhaps the only way to redeem the Ebon Dragon is to finally bring the two greatest shadows of Creation together...

As for Malfeas: Not sure.
As for Adjordan: Still not totally sure, but seems easier.
As for Cecyclene: Same as Adjorden: Not sure, but seems easier than Malfeas/ED.
As for the rest: BAH! They can stay in hell until they get some proper development!

Edit: Charms take up much space. Always reserve two extra posts if you plan even a medium-sized project like this. And now you know! I recommend that you either A) Restart the thread with new reserved posts when it becomes a problem or B) Ask people if they'll edit in your charms with copy-paste to replace the first couple of posts.

DracoDei
2010-11-19, 08:16 AM
Most of what I know about Exalted comes from reading Keychain of Creation. I had a technical note (see below). But as long as I am here, I do have one comment.

(This is a proposed solution to the "Hate List" problem, if that is still too fresh, don't open, and feel free to tell me "Yeah, you are missing the entire point").

EDIT: Now that I re-read the final charm, it does seem that a lot of the mechanical effects of buying the charm once might be strongly related to getting demons off the "Hate List", but I am not sure if I am talking apples to apples.

In D&D if you have a redeemed demon that is now Good, it still has the [Evil] sub-type. Still shows up as such under Detect Evil (but now also pings on Detect Good), etc. Ergo, (and remember, "never actually seen the rules") what does the Hate List matter to whether these charms work? Does the Hate List say "Thou shalt behave in an evil manner"? If not, then the personality can change without the mystical implication of being a Yozi changing. Depending on how hell's geography works this twist might increase the possibility of the change-over kicking off a really "fun" little bloodwar, lop-sided enough that it would require that every Infernal serving that Yozi be pulled back to Hell, and hopefully drawing in a few of the smarter Solars if only on the theory of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" (If Misho can hang with Secret without stressing about it...). The Lunars would be more likely to help I would think, being an additional step removed from UC's influence. Don't know enough about the sidereals or dragon-blooded.

So... is this a case of "The lack of understanding of the setting... IT BURNS!", or have I got halfway of a point?


A) Restart the thread with new reserved posts when it becomes a problem or B) Ask people if they'll edit in your charms with copy-paste to replace the first couple of posts.
As a long-running board member, I would recommend A. If you do B, you should make sure that what you give them to insert is the OLDEST/Most Refined stuff.

Primal Fury
2010-11-19, 11:18 AM
They simply give the Infernal the capability to change them, if they proceed to accomplish suitably epic deeds(Fetich Souls are 3rd circle, are they not?).
Yes, but killing them is much less epic than convincing the Sun to let them go.


Regarding the ability to cease being a Creature of Darkness; what happens if a Abyssal Redeems him/herself and becomes a solar? Is he/she still a CoD or not?
Yes, but that goes back to the Sun promising never to raise his hand against his children, which is why he hasn't nuked thorns yet, the deathlords were once Solars, and they are still "his children" in some weird way (though highjacking the Day Star and nuking Thorns is a HILARIOUS way to suppress his Temperance :smallwink:). Having a Solar be CoD for any reason would fundamentally weaken the Sun, even if he knew nothing about it. Hm... Terrible Sun-King Condemnation on a Solar...

InfiniteNothing
2010-11-19, 11:26 AM
Hmm... I recall reading in CoCD: Malfeas that Malfeas (the Yozi) enjoys music. Based on my understanding of the text, it helps him take his mind off what he's going through. It's a long shot, but maybe that can factor into his redemption?

And Primal? Please look at my last post. You're trying to push us back into the rut.

Green Bean
2010-11-19, 12:00 PM
While I do love the idea of Yozi-redeeming charms, I'm not so sure about the implementation. Redefinition is supposed to be a gradual thing, and the charms have to remain within the Yozi's thematics. Redefinition of Congenial Perspective, and the ones that key off of positive Intimacies don't really work with what SWLIHN is all about. She obeys Malfeas because he is her superior, not because she's particularly fond of him. At the end of the Primordial War, she was equally willing to serve under the people who had skilled her siblings. That is simply who she is. The charms would make more sense if they aided your hierarchical superior rather than your intimacies (though that does make them less useful as redemption charms).

DracoDei
2010-11-19, 12:57 PM
While I do love the idea of Yozi-redeeming charms, I'm not so sure about the implementation. Redefinition is supposed to be a gradual thing, and the charms have to remain within the Yozi's thematics. Redefinition of Congenial Perspective, and the ones that key off of positive Intimacies don't really work with what SWLIHN is all about. She obeys Malfeas because he is her superior, not because she's particularly fond of him. At the end of the Primordial War, she was equally willing to serve under the people who had skilled her siblings. That is simply who she is. The charms would make more sense if they aided your hierarchical superior rather than your intimacies (though that does make them less useful as redemption charms).
The charms seem to me to not be based on how one sees one's superiors, but one's inferiors. The underlying assumption may be that someone who follows SWLIHN strongly tends to develop positive intimacies for people who are useful to them in some way, rather than pure altruism/affection.

Xefas
2010-11-19, 02:49 PM
I think any ST using this ought to add in a major extra step, but I support having that be a purely story concern.

I agree.


Hmm... I recall reading in CoCD: Malfeas that Malfeas (the Yozi) enjoys music. Based on my understanding of the text, it helps him take his mind off what he's going through. It's a long shot, but maybe that can factor into his redemption?

In Broken Winged Crane, he actually has a dancing charm called Beauty Without Malice. It's the first example of Malfeas being "without malice", so I planned on having that factor in heavily.


Redefinition is supposed to be a gradual thing, and the charms have to remain within the Yozi's thematics.

The reason the Yozi built the ability for the Green Sun Princes to give them new charms into their exaltation was specifically so they could gain power outside their own themes. Their themes define them. Malfeas, by himself, cannot create a charm that allows you to be stealthy. It won't fit into his brain that he could be stealthy. So he made it so that, if an Infernal were to create a stealth charm in his tree, he would become strealthy.

It's on page 101 of the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals. It actually kinda makes them more tragic villains, as they clearly want to change, but are incapable of changing themselves.

Green Bean
2010-11-20, 12:11 PM
The charms seem to me to not be based on how one sees one's superiors, but one's inferiors. The underlying assumption may be that someone who follows SWLIHN strongly tends to develop positive intimacies for people who are useful to them in some way, rather than pure altruism/affection.

But that contradicts what she's all about. If you look at Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue), she loves individual people the same way we love individual skin cells. She may help them become more efficient and effective, but she certainly won't sacrifice the greater well-being of her hierarchy for the sake of an individual.


The reason the Yozi built the ability for the Green Sun Princes to give them new charms into their exaltation was specifically so they could gain power outside their own themes. Their themes define them. Malfeas, by himself, cannot create a charm that allows you to be stealthy. It won't fit into his brain that he could be stealthy. So he made it so that, if an Infernal were to create a stealth charm in his tree, he would become strealthy.

It's on page 101 of the Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals. It actually kinda makes them more tragic villains, as they clearly want to change, but are incapable of changing themselves.

To an extent Infernals can help the Yozi overcome their blind spots, but the Infernals are still limited by the Yozi's larger thematics. Short of some serious soul-pruning, you won't be able to make a Malfeas charm that enhances your ability to bow down and swear fealty to someone else, or an Adorjan charm that creates a permanent intimacy.

Xefas
2010-12-04, 11:56 PM
Added a new charm (and keyword) to illustrate my Nega-Scott Ebon Dragon concept.


But that contradicts what she's all about. If you look at Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue), she loves individual people the same way we love individual skin cells. She may help them become more efficient and effective, but she certainly won't sacrifice the greater well-being of her hierarchy for the sake of an individual.

Look, I'm not interested in going round and round in this argument again. It'll go like this:

1) Me: Charm that changes the Yozi in a minor way while staying within a broader thematic.
2) You: But the problem is that the Yozi isn't about that.
3) Me: The Yozi can change.
4) You: No they can't.
5) Me: Yes, it says they can change on page 101 of the Manual of Exalted Power - Infernals
6) You: But they can't change in that way.
7) Me: Where does it say that, specifically?
8) Go back to step 2; repeat

I'd rather just avoid it outright.

Primal Fury
2010-12-05, 12:32 AM
Inner Devils Defeated

What the... This isn't an Ebon Dragon charm. This looks more like a Heretical charm, though I'm not sure what the other side of the coin would be.

As to the changing of the Yozi... There are certain things within them that are, in fact, inviolable. You can't make She Who Lives like chaos, you can't make Cecelyne place the weak above the strong, and you can't make Malfeas submit to someone (barring extreme circumstances like the threat of becoming a Neverborn). Some things are simply beyond what they represent, and barring some serious soul-pruning, they're not going to change.

And more relevant to the newer charm, you can't make the Ebon Dragon improve someone else like this. That's just not within his power. No one is made better by confronting him. If anything, those who fight him and triumph are made worse. His taint is just that pervasive. Everything he touches turns bad. There is no room for this with his themes.

Sure, Infernals can change the Yozi, but what you're doing here is a complete 180. This just doesn't work.

aetherialDawn
2010-12-13, 06:46 PM
The other side of the coin for a Heretic Inner Devils Defeated might be Szoreny; providing you with the perfect foil, from whom you learn. And with the Ebon Dragon's help, that foil is your inner darkness, and the thing you learn is the virtue that your foil lacks.

For Primal Fury:

And in fact, there is nothing inviolable about the Yozis. Adorjan, noted for her belief in freedom from emotion, is from the natural fetich death of Adrian, noted for her endless emotions. You can outright invert a Yozi if you want to. Malfeas, who was once the most courageous of the Yozis and not even a physical presence, is now solid and manic-depressive.

And that was without powerful forces working from within.

For the specific: Malfeas was made to submit. He hates it, but he was made to submit even before he was 'pruned'.

And finally: This is beyond soul-pruning. Destroying third-circle demons can remove from a Yozi, but the Infernals have the power to add to a Yozi in their power to innovate charms. The Yozis gave the Infernals free reign to do so, and it is just as viable for an Infernal to use their nature as a seed of something beyond a Primordial to fix the Yozis as to become one themselves.

And now I would like to ask that you respect the wishes of the thread creator, and either stop this or try a different, less confrontational method. Observing from the outside, you are complaining rather than criticizing; I don't think that's what you mean to do, and I hope that it's merely because these charms are indeed hard to work with - I can confirm that they are, since they cover topics somewhat different from the normal views of the Yozis.

Adding to the charms: I actually don't think Inner Devils Defeated is appropriate either. It really DOES seem to be a heretical charm of Ebon Dragon/Szoreny - or with a stretch to her principles of freedom, Ebon Dragon/Adorjan.

If it helps, the Primordial of the Ebon Dragon - The Dragon's Shadow - was originally supposed to be the nemesis of the world who gave it meaning by his opposition, and received his own meaning in turn.

He also created colors. Not sure how that might help, but it's something that he did that doesn't involve being an endless source of anti-virtue.

The Ebon Dragon is also self-preservation and greed, but unenlightened greed - he won't let you help someone else more than you help yourself. But he is ALSO desperate to escape all bindings, so any restriction he places is inherently a subject for betrayal as well, even self-betrayal (After all, he will deny himself what he wants to do the same to another, betraying himself as much as the other.)

The Ebon Dragon is also the Yozi most capable of understanding others, though he applies it in sociopathic fashion - he can understand true love, he merely opposes it.

He is a force of opposition, betrayal, self-interest, lies, inner truths, and reversals. And he is also hypocritical, which means that of all the Yozis he is also the most likely to deny what is happening to him as he is redeemed, since it will free him - He will do anything to be free, and he can clearly deny himself whether it's to his benefit or not.

I hope some of that is helpful!

Personally, I want to see Malfeas redeemed. Once upon a time, I see him as having been Kamina to the Primordials; everyone WANTED him to rule them, because his courage and leadership against the Wyld, and his care for those beneath, was so inspiring. Also, his description as the Holy Tyrant and the King of the Primordials in Demon Emperor Shintai sounds suspiciously like the Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (but green, of course.) Besides, he also has Star-Piercing Spear of Glory, and it's only a short hop from there to drills that pierce the heavens. These are both canon charms courtesy of the Broken-Winged Crane, no less, so we know that he still has some of the potential of the Holy Tyrant who She Who Lived in Her Name placed above even her own perfection.

Xefas
2010-12-13, 07:20 PM
Thank you for weighing in, aetherial, and I appreciate the critique, rather than more party-pooping.

However, before I go and take down my first Ebon Dragon charm (and either try again or work on a different Yozi), I would prefer a little bit more elaboration. Specifically, why is the idea of the Ebon Dragon birthing heroes so opposed? The Ultimate Darkness birthed from himself the Unconquered Sun. He did not have another create it on his behalf, nor did he cobble it together from concepts outside of himself - it is specifically stated that he harnessed the power to create Gods and drew Sol Invictus out from the depths of his own essence. He created arguably the greatest hero that ever lived using his native charm set (because Primordials are their native charm set), and yet it is somehow taboo that he should regain some small pittance of this ability?

Yes, I think elaboration is in order.

Primal Fury
2010-12-13, 08:10 PM
Erhm... Looking at it again, you might be onto something with this. I read a post over on the WW forums that said you could use ED's excellency for exactly the opposite of what it's meant to be used for, simply by virtue of the fact that you were spiting the Ebon Dragon by doing so. Antagonism is weird like that, apparently.

It feels more appropriate to his themes for someone to be made worse after triumphing over their Inner Devil. All this stuff about "redeeming" the Yozi (whatever that means) just feels... weird.

aetherialDawn
2010-12-13, 10:24 PM
Thank you for weighing in, aetherial, and I appreciate the critique, rather than more party-pooping.

However, before I go and take down my first Ebon Dragon charm (and either try again or work on a different Yozi), I would prefer a little bit more elaboration. Specifically, why is the idea of the Ebon Dragon birthing heroes so opposed? The Ultimate Darkness birthed from himself the Unconquered Sun. He did not have another create it on his behalf, nor did he cobble it together from concepts outside of himself - it is specifically stated that he harnessed the power to create Gods and drew Sol Invictus out from the depths of his own essence. He created arguably the greatest hero that ever lived using his native charm set (because Primordials are their native charm set), and yet it is somehow taboo that he should regain some small pittance of this ability?

Yes, I think elaboration is in order.

I forgot all that, frankly! That's kind of interesting, as a massive display of the Ebon Dragon's self-betrayal. I'll need to read through the charm in light of this; taking that into account it might be appropriate.

And indeed, the Yozis are weird like that. The greatest service to the Ebon Dragon is to betray him, the greatest service to She Who Lives in Her Name is to make her more perfect...

All you need to do is realize it and act, which Exalted are very good at. And now that I'm building a Defiler, I'm understanding this much better, of course! :smallsmile:

EDIT: I re-read it! The effects are good, in this case, but I think you should emphasize, fluff-wise, that the reason the charm works is that it allows people to come into conflict with their inner darkness, and by that conflict define themselves anew as more virtuous people, just as The Dragon's Shadow once made the world lighter by being the darkness it contrasted with.

I personally don't know if I like the Essence 5 version killing its targets and sending their souls to Lethe, even if it results in a heroic next life. Mostly, I would say, since it gets in the way of spreading heroism in the present as well as in the future. It's not a deal-breaker by any means, however.

Xefas
2010-12-14, 01:05 AM
I've completely rewritten Inner Devils Unchained to 'Confront the Devil'. I found the previous version inelegant; not to mention the keyword seemed more like a crutch or an excuse for laziness. I hope this new charm does a better job of expressing what I want to express.

Primal Fury
2010-12-14, 10:36 AM
That one does feel a lot better, very much in line with the Ebon Dragon. I find it funny how you threw the "weak and innocent" there, since it actually sounds like a good form of punishment for some of the more... unpleasant mortals (bandits, murders, etc.)

aetherialDawn
2010-12-14, 12:06 PM
I love the new version of the charm. It seems like an excellent first step for the Ebon Dragon - doing evil, but leaving himself open to being betrayed into virtue instead. :smallamused:

I still vote for Malfeas first, and bonus points if one of the charms plays on his love of music and dance to arrange a musical number with his subjects.

Ligier will be so embarrassed.

Xefas
2010-12-14, 02:40 PM
That one does feel a lot better, very much in line with the Ebon Dragon. I find it funny how you threw the "weak and innocent" there, since it actually sounds like a good form of punishment for some of the more... unpleasant mortals (bandits, murders, etc.)

I would argue that a mortal serial murderer is both weak and innocent in the shadow of the Ebon Dragon. :smalltongue:


I love the new version of the charm. It seems like an excellent first step for the Ebon Dragon - doing evil, but leaving himself open to being betrayed into virtue instead. :smallamused:

I still vote for Malfeas first, and bonus points if one of the charms plays on his love of music and dance to arrange a musical number with his subjects.

Ligier will be so embarrassed.

I just put one up. I have an idea that, since Ligier is basically Malfeas' shame and self-loathing manifest, and it is also his Fetich, which I believe represents the Yozi's motivation, that each charm will alter Ligier in some way, shortening his temper and making him angrier or stronger (as Malfeas' shame increases) until the climactic showdown. If the Infernal succeeds, he'll have redeemed Malfeas; if he fails, he'll have unleashed a Malfeas far worse than he ever was before.

Primal Fury
2010-12-14, 02:48 PM
I would argue that a mortal serial murderer is both weak and innocent in the shadow of the Ebon Dragon. :smalltongue:
You and your technicalities. :smalltongue:

The Malfeas charm looks good, but why add that last line about gaining limit?

Xefas
2010-12-14, 03:14 PM
You and your technicalities. :smalltongue:

The Malfeas charm looks good, but why add that last line about gaining limit?

Well, as stated above, I wanted to give the idea that Ligier is descending into madness with every one of these charms that Malfeas learns, inflicting various things on him in the process (making him both angrier and stronger). As the lowest charm, it just gives him a point of Limit. Others would do additional things.

Is this a bad idea?

Primal Fury
2010-12-14, 03:43 PM
Upon closer reading... Well... Could you explain your reasoning behind it? I understand that as long as your don't make the Excellency untrue, you can make charms that stretch the boundaries of Malfeas, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of "Malfeas" in this charm. Feels more like Adorjan, what with the rejiggering of intimacies.

How would Malfeas use this charm? He already has positive intimacies towards his subjects, and negative intimacies towards everyone who fought him in the Primordial War, or betrayed him in said War, so who would he use it on?

Xefas
2010-12-14, 04:00 PM
Upon closer reading... Well... Could you explain your reasoning behind it? I understand that as long as your don't make the Excellency untrue, you can make charms that stretch the boundaries of Malfeas, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of "Malfeas" in this charm. Feels more like Adorjan, what with the rejiggering of intimacies.

How would Malfeas use this charm? He already has positive intimacies towards his subjects, and negative intimacies towards everyone who fought him in the Primordial War, or betrayed him in said War, so who would he use it on?

Well, one of Malfeas' themes is that he likes to dance, and that in dancing, he can forget his troubles and be truly happy. His Excellency specifically can be used to help any happy dancing action. And, in addition to having a positive intimacy for (The Other Yozi) and a negative intimacy for (Everyone Else From the Primordial War Era) or whatever, he probably also has "Shame (My Failure)", "Hate (Me)", "Trust (Xenophobia)", "Love (Hikikomori Lifestyle)" and stuff like that. That's the stuff he could work through with his dancing.

And then, as the Brass Dancer prances through the streets of the Demon City, all those First Circle Demons with "Love (The Taste of Babies)" and "Hate (Days I Don't Eat Babies)" and "Zeal (Spousal Abuse)" can start to work through their issues as well.

aetherialDawn
2010-12-14, 04:59 PM
YES! I love the charm!

And I hadn't considered just how much Ligier would hate musical numbers. Limit at the lowest charm? That is going to be an angry, angry fetich.

Would you prefer payment in internets or cookies?

As far as the charm goes... It makes sense that it would cause the nearby environment in Malfeas to get musical, since the entire place is, well, made of demon-king. I think that it might have a reduced effect in Creation, or just an extra cost of some kind, since it is not so actively harmonized (hee hee) with infernal essence.

Xefas
2010-12-14, 05:07 PM
YES! I love the charm!

And I hadn't considered just how much Ligier would hate musical numbers. Limit at the lowest charm? That is going to be an angry, angry fetich.

Would you prefer payment in internets or cookies?

As far as the charm goes... It makes sense that it would cause the nearby environment in Malfeas to get musical, since the entire place is, well, made of demon-king. I think that it might have a reduced effect in Creation, or just an extra cost of some kind, since it is not so actively harmonized (hee hee) with infernal essence.

Glad you like it. :smallbiggrin:

As for having a reduced effect in Creation- it's kind of like Crowned With Fury. Malfeas is the King of the Universe. He says sing, and the universe sings. Or, at the very least, the Small Gods of various things in Creation would hear him, even in their slumber, and succumb to the Divine Geas, following his command to sing.

The only place I could see it having trouble would be inside Autochthonia, where everything is a part of Autochthon, who doesn't like Malfeas. But even then, that's just denying an Infernal the opportunity to bust out some breakdancing moves while Friend Computer supplies him with its own Primordial Techno beats.

aetherialDawn
2010-12-14, 05:20 PM
Fair enough, I can see what you mean. Creation is good then. And Autochthon is no more resistant to Infernal charms than Creation (Also nobody will steal from me my Infernal Techno.)

The Wyld, of course, cannot help but play along for their own reasons.

I suppose the Underworld might try to stop it, but I can see a Thriller stunt right there. Dancing up with a legion of ghost-extras at your back...

Yeah, I'm going to be revising my charm choices to get closer to this.

In essence, I can see some problems with the charm in a fluff-sense, but they are all overridden by the tsunami of awesome that is being able to suddenly stage an impromptu musical. By the same token, it seems fairly powerful and probably ought to be Essence 3, if only barely so - having Essence 2 characters altering the Yozis immediately is a bit much to put on a player, and I say that as a guy building a Malfeas-favoring Defiler (Fiddle, not dance, I'm afraid, but I am tempted to switch it up.)

I can just imagine the Yozi Concert Hall: Malfeas is dancing center-stage, of course, Adorjan is... probably off sulking in a corner, actually, or possibly herding everyone into some sort of concert hall where this takes place, Swirly is providing special effects and the perfect music of her crystal spheres (Keeping perfect time, of course.) Cecylene is conducting all the demonic backup musicians and singers, and the Ebon Dragon provides vocals because for some reason the evil guys can always sing. (He probably sounds like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM) in my head now.)

*cough* Back to the charms... It's good, and I think that driving Ligier into Limit Break is a perfectly reasonable side-effect. I think it should be Essence 3 for reasons of the fluff power of Yozi-redeeming, since the Infernal can do greater changes as their essence increases.

Xefas
2010-12-14, 05:38 PM
Ah, right, I forgot that I made it Essence 2 at first. It was originally going to be a slightly weaker version of Phantom Conjuring Performance, but I decided that was bland, so I revised the effects. I just forgot to up the Essence requirement.

And that song you linked to is awesome.

Primal Fury
2010-12-14, 06:41 PM
Well, one of Malfeas' themes is that he likes to dance, and that in dancing, he can forget his troubles and be truly happy. His Excellency specifically can be used to help any happy dancing action. And, in addition to having a positive intimacy for (The Other Yozi) and a negative intimacy for (Everyone Else From the Primordial War Era) or whatever, he probably also has "Shame (My Failure)", "Hate (Me)", "Trust (Xenophobia)", "Love (Hikikomori Lifestyle)" and stuff like that. That's the stuff he could work through with his dancing.
Hm... Okay, I can dig this.


And then, as the Brass Dancer prances through the streets of the Demon City, all those First Circle Demons with "Love (The Taste of Babies)" and "Hate (Days I Don't Eat Babies)" and "Zeal (Spousal Abuse)" can start to work through their issues as well.
But not this. For 1CD, these aren't issues, these behaviors are ingrained into their very natures. A human falls in love, and gives candy as a present. A Blood Ape falls in love, and rips a leg off the object of their affection, and gives that as a present. There's nothing wrong with them; that's just how they are.

Xefas
2010-12-14, 06:44 PM
But not this. For 1CD, these aren't issues, these behaviors are ingrained into their very natures. A human falls in love, and gives candy as a present. A Blood Ape falls in love, and rips a leg off the object of their affection, and gives that as a present. There's nothing wrong with them; that's just how they are.

Okay, I guess you're right. But that's not a problem with the charm; that's a problem with my example. It does say it's specifically voluntary and unique to the individual.

Primal Fury
2010-12-14, 07:23 PM
Okay, I guess you're right. But that's not a problem with the charm; that's a problem with my example. It does say it's specifically voluntary and unique to the individual.
True. I am both a purist, and a perfectionist, and that's a very depressing combination. :smallfrown:

aetherialDawn
2010-12-15, 12:22 AM
On the new charm: Oh Ligier, you are going to hate this redemption so much...

I'm a little confused as to how this works. It allows the Infernal to dance in his dreams... and replace an actual dance with the dream-dance later?... I think. It seemed a bit unclear.

Malfeas: Dancing away his self-hatred.
Cecylene: Not sure.
She Who Lives in Her Name: Assigning value to all things.
Adorjan: Not sure.
The Ebon Dragon: ENLIGHTENED Self-Interest, perhaps, and providing the trial-by-fire (or rather darkness): You either fail, and empower him, or succeed, and become greater than you were before.

Xefas
2010-12-15, 12:46 AM
I'm a little confused as to how this works. It allows the Infernal to dance in his dreams... and replace an actual dance with the dream-dance later?... I think. It seemed a bit unclear.

Basically, when you dream, you can do things that are beyond what you can do in reality (aka "things you've only dreamt of"). The memories linger in the Infernal, and when he would otherwise fail, he goes "No. Y'know what? I'm better than this. If I can think it, I can do it. WHACHA ESSENCE SHOOOOM" and succeeds anyway. I dunno how I could clarify it...

Adorjan: Not sure.
Honestly? Me neither. I don't even like Adorjan. Why couldn't we have had the Ebon Dragon be the Scourge Caste patron (which we would then call the Fiend Caste) and just had...maybe Elloge? Elloge could be the Eclipse-analogue patron. We could call it the Demagogue Caste or something.

Would be so much better than Adorjan.

aetherialDawn
2010-12-15, 01:01 AM
But Adorjan's charms are so wonderfully insane!

You run, invisible and invincible. Forever.

... If you want to.

So, what aspects does Adorjan have?

-Freedom.
-Desire to share her freedom.
-Desire for silence.
-Wind.
-Expresses herself by killing things.

On the one hand, freedom yay. On the other hand, it clearly hasn't redeemed her to the degree we desire. However, we know that she prefers not to destroy certain sounds for unknown reasons... And that she is a Yozi. All Yozis are capable of wonderful music and dance, no exceptions. All Yozis love music and dance, no exceptions except perhaps Adorjan.

Perhaps what Adorjan needs to learn is how to coexist with others, and learn as well as teach? Especially since her teachings involve being flayed alive? I guess the problem is that Adorjan is described just enough to be complicated.

Adorjan does not hate or love, she just runs around being free. Perhaps, just as Swirly respects the value of others, Adorjan needs to respect their fetters somehow... Difficult, certainly.

We also know that Adorjan has a non-wind form, which went into a Creation man's dreams and had seven daughters with him even as wind-Adorjan destroyed his dreams. Three of the daughters stayed in Creation and we know little about them. I think that there is just something we don't know about Adorjan.

I just realized. Here is a summary of what I said: "To redeem Adorjan, you'd need to write all-new fluff for her." That is not redeeming a yozi. That is subjecting her to fetich death, then redeeming her, if you tried it in crunch.

Yeah, Adorjan can at least wait until we have fully enjoyed the Dancing King.

And as we enjoy the Dancing King, I will (hopefully) be playing a Defiler, so I can offer some superior criticism of the previous Swirly charms as I evaluate them for a real character. Hooray!

Lix Lorn
2011-02-22, 07:05 PM
Doesn't Adorjan have a theme of love somewhere? Admittedly she expresses it by freeing her object of affection from life... work on that?

Psyborg
2011-04-21, 01:20 PM
First off, I really love this thread. Awesome stuff.

Now, my thoughts on Adorjan:

1. Pre-fetich-death, Adorjan was [forget the name], the river that encircled Creation and formed a barrier that separated/protected it from the Wyld.

2. Adorjan's...stuff involves positive intimacies, and freeing the subjects of those positive intimacies by granting them the gift of death.

???

Profit: Post-redemption Adorjan becomes a guardian/barrier of some sort between Creation and the Underworld. "Love" (and other positive intimacies) grow to include the restless dead. "Death" expands to include "entering Lethe".

That much I definitely like the idea of. What follows is written entirely off the top of my head as I brainstorm, and I make no guarantees as to its quality or sanity.--As she was once of neither Creation nor the Wyld, but the barrier between them, now she is not of Creation nor the Underworld, but rather inhabits the Shadowlands.

--Perhaps she even enters/merges with Lethe, expanding it sufficiently to accomodate the titanic task of Primordial reincarnation, allowing the Neverborn to finally know peace.

Now, granted, I've got no idea how to get Adorjan onto this theme appropriately, but it seems a good (or at least plausible) match for her previous and current natures.

DracoDei
2011-04-30, 06:50 PM
Keep in mind I haver never played Exalted, and half my knowledge of it probably comes from Keychain of Creation.


--Perhaps she even enters/merges with Lethe, expanding it sufficiently to accomodate the titanic task of Primordial reincarnation, allowing the Neverborn to finally know peace.
Sounds great!... but let us say that this task is tricky enough that it requires his UNDIVIDED attention from 100 years (or some numerologically significant number) for EACH Primordial. And by "UNDIVIDED" I mostly mean that all the other Yozi have to be reformed or dead and reforming (or does that happen instantly? Again, I don't know the system) so they aren't beating on the barrier he now is. Dealing with Non-primordial-level stuff might or might not be something that he could spare a bit of attention for.


The reasons for this are obvious (no good nixing a major part of the villians "just" by redeeming one Yozi), but not necessarily actually true. Perhaps the Abyssals (if I have my terms right) don't "believe the message the war is over". Perhaps the reborn Primordials are a sufficient threat in their own way, even if they are COMPARATIVELY nice, since nobody is expecting them and they are trying to carve out a niche for themselves.

aetherialDawn
2011-06-07, 03:49 AM
Adorjan does not generally deal with the Underworld; though her convictions seem insane, she does hold them. And canonically, only Oramus encompasses necromancy on his own because his own nightmares are already so bad that including Oblivion makes them no worse, and the Ebon Dragon is just that twisted, and also refuses to accept even the barriers that should exist.

I would say that given Adorjan's themes of love-shown-by-freeing-from-everything, often mixed with 'murder is fun'...

The place to start is an enhancement to her charms that frees those she kills from all earthly bonds, putting them into Lethe immediately. Moving on, it is wise to be aware of three things:
1) You cannot simply give Adorjan a new set of themes, only apply her existing themes in a new context - and even that can be iffy if you go too far.
2) No Yozi but the Ebon Dragon and Oramus will willingly allow their themes to encompass the Underworld, even if that refusal weakens them.
3) The Yozis opened their charms to the GSPs and have zero say in how they're used. They don't have to use charms that encompass the underworld, but they can't excise them from their charm trees once invented.

If it fits the themes of Adorjan, and Adorjan doesn't like that... well, too bad for her, because she cannot undo it except by killing every Green Sun Prince who has the charms she doesn't like, and then committing fetich-suicide to reset herself.
Of course, Adorjan is crazy enough to do just that. But this is an epic quest the would-be Yozi-redeemer is embarking on. Did they think it would be easy? As long as they stay alive, the Silent Wind can commit suicide over and over and won't be able to excise the charms, after all. So what if every Adorjani Urge becomes 'KILL THIS PERSON'?

strange7person
2017-10-17, 11:00 AM
Subtracting Injury From Insult
Permanent, Essence 4
Prerequisites: Gift of Silence x2, Murder Is Meat, Pellegrina's Fury, Theft As Release

The Silent Wind was not among the architects of Creation, and has no interest in allowing Lethe to strip away the lessons she bestows. This charm permanently modifies the warlock's unarmed attacks, causing them to deal a special type of aggravated damage, which should be marked by drawing a circle or diamond shape in appropriate boxes of the health track. It also applies to any environmental hazards or blasts of energy emanating from the warlock's body, including Adorjan Mythos Exultant, and is not optional. The warlock can still inflict bashing, lethal, or conventional aggravated damage using manufactured weapons.

Wounds affected by this charm take twice as long to heal naturally, and inflict double the normal wound penalty, but can never continue beyond Incapacitated to kill outright. They bleed normally, but the blood comes out as a crimson mist which erodes clothing or the ground rather than leaving conventional stains.

Whenever someone bearing such wounds would take one or more levels of lethal damage, including from blood loss or bashing damage rollover, each level of lethal damage instead removes one special aggravated wound but is itself negated in the process. For example, if someone with seven levels of special aggravated damage was stabbed with a sword and the damage dice rolled 8 successes, they would end up with a single lethal wound in their -0 health box but otherwise be unhurt.

After purchasing this charm a second time, when someone's incapacitated health level is filled with such damage, they instantly dematerialize, and remain so until they are no longer incapacitated. Their disappearance leaves beind a spray of aerosolized gore, which is a valid target for Sacred Kamilla's Inhalation if the victim's corpse would have been, at least until it dissipates, which takes as long as an iconic anima banner if the victim is an exalt, or an 8-10 mote banner if they're an essence user, a 4-7 mote for heroic mortals, or one long tick otherwise. The spray's visibility in daylight is similar to that of an equivalent anima banner at night, and vice-versa. The spray also causes damage on the same scale as terrestrial anima flux, ignoring the hardness of nonmagical stone, but instead of providing light bright enough to read by over a given radius, it obstructs vision like fog.

Additionally, as long as someone incapacitated by this damage remains dematerialized, but no more than once per day, they can channel Conviction to recover from a single otherwise-permanent Crippling effect, such as amputation, but not crippling effects which would heal naturally in time. Spiritual strength is transmuted into impossible heroic resurgence through the crucible of tragedy, but Adorjan offers no relief from mere temporary inconveniences.

It should be noted that being immaterial does not, in itself, provide any protection against hunger or thirst.

With a third purchase, dematerializing someone in this way automatically stanches and sterilizes (as if with alcohol) all their bleeding wounds, and counts as a kill for purposes of Murder Is Meat. Instead of using Conviction to shed a Crippling effect on any given day, such victims can channel Temperance to escape an y one otherwise unbreakable unnatural mental influence. This cannot remove any mental influence which could eventually be escaped by sufficient expenditure of willpower, even if opportunities are infrequent, as with the spell Threefold Binding of the Heart, nor inviolable effects such as yozi surrender-oaths, sorcerous bindings based on those oaths, or the Great Curse, but it explicitly can cure addiction to the Games of Divinity.

A fourth and final purchase allows dematerializing someone in this way to count as a kill for purposes of satisfying any Compulsion or Urge to cause harm (per the sidebar Charm Concept: Harm in Manual of Exalted Power: Abyssals). Additionally, dematerialized victims gain the option to spend Compassion or Valor channels to shed otherwise incurable Poisons or Sicknesses, respectively. For every full day of incapacitation in which no virtues are channeled, they instead remove one point of Limit (or equivalent trait, such as Resonance or Dissonance) or, if that track is already empty, one wyld mutation, starting with the most severe. Abominations are downgraded to Blights, Deformities to Debilities, and so on, until 1-point mutations are shed outright.

Someone who spends a full month incapacitated and immaterial, without ever having more than three points total among Limit, wyld mutations, virtue channels, or temporary willpower during that time, becomes consciously aware of the exact terms of any and all blessings or curses (astrological, geomantic, or otherwise), geasa, oaths, or similar effects they're currently affected by, such as the maximum age limit of GSPs and Sidereals. However, any action intended to communicate, record, or otherwise directly express such insights through any medium other than manic laughter is automatically reduced to zero dice, with a further -4 external penalty. This can be overcome by bonuses from charms and/or stunts, though Adorjan's excellency is never applicable, for she refuses to be understood and torments those who try. Attempts to make use of the knowledge without adequately explaining it to anyone are not similarly penalized.

Ronnoc
2017-10-17, 11:10 AM
I am going to note that going by canon and developer comments you can't reform the Yozi's by inventing new charms for them. Any charm that would fundamentally change a Yozi's nature is incompatible with the Yozi's theme and thus isn't learned by the Yozi. An infernal exalt could still create these charms but they'd be Devil Tiger charms and thus would not be learned by a patron Yozi. All of that having been said, it's a game have fun, and some of these charms look cool.

strange7person
2017-10-17, 12:21 PM
I am going to note that going by canon and developer comments you can't reform the Yozi's by inventing new charms for them. Any charm that would fundamentally change a Yozi's nature is incompatible with the Yozi's theme and thus isn't learned by the Yozi. An infernal exalt could still create these charms but they'd be Devil Tiger charms and thus would not be learned by a patron Yozi. All of that having been said, it's a game have fun, and some of these charms look cool.

What do you think of mine? It doesn't go directly against Adorjan's core themes, but plays them off against each other, de-fanging the "rocks fall, everybody dies" aspect of her passage into something more like harmless comedic tsundere violence. Entire armies may still explode into clouds of blood, but the soldiers pop up again afterward, naked and embarrassed but basically unscathed, possibly healthier and wiser than before.

With that fourth purchase, let's say you're a GSP or Adorjani akuma and the Yozis give you the Urge "Kill Lytek, the Right Hand of Power, God of Exaltation." But you happen to like Lytek, or at least prefer that he continue to exist. So you go up to his office in Yu-Shan, give him a handshake so firm his arm melts off at the shoulder (it's in her nature to hurt everything she touches), followed up with a kick that launches him through a window into the sky dome so he disappears with a twinkling flash like a Super Smash Brothers stage-out.

Then you march straight back to Hell, announce "Alright, I killed Lytek, what's next?" to which She Who Lives In Her Name replies "That Statement Is Incorrect, Sensors Indicate Lytek Still Lives." You can say "So what? I know he's not dead, but that doesn't change the fact that I totally did kill him. Job done. Gimme a new Urge already." And then they pretty much have to. Meanwhile, Lytek grows that arm back, kicks a dreamstone habit, and gains startling new insights into the nature of the Divine Geas, the Great Curse, and various sidereal schemes, all of which probably help him do his job better.