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Akimu
2010-11-17, 09:30 PM
Hi evrybody! (Hi Dr. Nick)

So I'm here for a bit of insight on what to lvl after 20. This is my 1st ever D&D character and I'm proud of him.

I'm a Moon elf Rog10/Asn8. I want to close out the 10 lvls of Asn, and then I'm not sure where to go. My DM doesn't use multiclass RAW. There are no lvl gap penalties, so starting a new class is an option, and the option I'm leaning towards. I'm happy with the class skills, and progressions of where I will be at 20. Then I think I want to add new "flavor".
I'm open to all suggestions but RP and fun come first, effectivness second.
Some info about said character should be helpfull...

Abilty scores(including bonuses) STR 14, DEX 28, CON 12, INT 19, WIS 12, CHA 14.
Feats-(some prereqs have been houseruled) mobility, leadership, weapon finesse, imp feint, flick of the wrist, combat expertise, two weapon fighting
Skills- mixed bag, I travel with a wizard and a fighter, I have a large skill role to fill.
Extra- I have become a Chosen of Shar (DM's homebrew). I got ability bonuses, the entire Shadow weave feat progression, and tons of immunities.
I must remain neutral evil
I've been "following" Shar for awhile now and would like to stay close. My first thought was cleric (a preist of Shar, and my party has no healing) but my WIS is bad. My next thought was Sorcerer. Shar has lvls in that class so that keeps me close to my diety. My Cha score would get me to lvl 9 before I start "losing" spells.

Thanks and good games everyone!

Urpriest
2010-11-17, 09:35 PM
At this level being a caster won't be very useful, magic items are giving you more benefits than the low-level spells would.

Have you considered just taking more levels of Assassin? You'd get epic bonus feats, some of which are pretty tasty.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 09:38 PM
Yeah, Epic Assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClassProgressions.htm#epicAssassin) seems like the only sensible option. It'll get you nice progression on all your abilities and bonus epic feats allowing you to especially get Improved Spell Capacities for 9th level spells and Epic Spellcasting swiftly. Not to mention...yeah, advances everything. Go for it; you've already paid for it so now is the time to reap the benefits. Multiclassing would just hurt your overall ability.

Akimu
2010-11-17, 09:45 PM
Yes, but beyond epic feats I'm not getting much from Asn. A +1 DC for Death Attack per lvl, As a Chosen of Shar I was granted Immunity to poison, so save bonuses for that are totally useless. SA dice are always nice, but I'm not sure about the spells. Don't I get +1 spell known per lvl after 20? i can't remember, nor can I find where I read that.

Really I'm not sure, hence the thread. I've talked it over with everyone in the game (except the DM I like to surprise him) and still havent come to a conclussion. Fortunatly I still have 2 lvls of Asn before I must make a final decision.

Edit- the save DC for DA goes up +1 every 2 lvls. And I don't get any more spells per day.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 09:55 PM
Yes, but beyond epic feats I'm not getting much from Asn. A +1 DC for Death Attack per lvl, As a Chosen of Shar I was granted Immunity to poison, so save bonuses for that are totally useless. SA dice are always nice, but I'm not sure about the spells. Don't I get +1 spell known per lvl after 20? i can't remember, nor can I find where I read that.

Really I'm not sure, hence the thread. I've talked it over with everyone in the game (except the DM I like to surprise him) and still havent come to a conclussion. Fortunatly I still have 2 lvls of Asn before I must make a final decision.

Edit- the save DC for DA goes up +1 every 2 lvls. And I don't get any more spells per day.

It gives you bonus Epic feats. That's how you progress in Epic. Epic feats contain, among others, Improved Spell Capacity which gives you an entire new spell level (though with no spells inherently; you could add some with feats or use it for metamagicked versions of the normal spells). Once you get to 9th level, you can pick up Epic Spellcasting which is really good.

Akimu
2010-11-17, 10:17 PM
Here is my problem with epic assassin... the only feat I qualify for and can actually effectivly use is Lingering Damage. Yes I dream of the carnage I will put out, but is that 1 feat worth losing class features?

I always see the same said about fighters as a class "It's a poor choice because of a lack of class features" I tend to agree, but my fighter buddy is good at making things dead. However going epic Assassin is basically giving up class features for a couple of feats.

I'm not familiar with epic spellcasting, something I may have to look into, but assassins spell list is not very extensive 1-10.

Hawk7915
2010-11-17, 10:32 PM
Wizard 1/Unseen Seer X/Arcane Trickster Y? You wouldn't hardly lose any sneak attack and skill progression, but would begin adding powerful arcane spellcasting to your repertoire. You don't even need to learn any divinations on your first wizard level; you already have several from your Assassin levels :smallamused:.

If your Int bonus is decent, you could to level Factotum for the extra actions and various minor bonuses.

Part of this depends on how much more you'll be leveling. It's hard to start a new class (like Wizard) when you are already so high. If the campaign is going for only 5-6 more levels, it's probably easier to just take Epic Assassin and more Rogue levels.

Eldariel
2010-11-17, 10:37 PM
Here is my problem with epic assassin... the only feat I qualify for and can actually effectivly use is Lingering Damage. Yes I dream of the carnage I will put out, but is that 1 feat worth losing class features?

I always see the same said about fighters as a class "It's a poor choice because of a lack of class features" I tend to agree, but my fighter buddy is good at making things dead. However going epic Assassin is basically giving up class features for a couple of feats.

I'm not familiar with epic spellcasting, something I may have to look into, but assassins spell list is not very extensive 1-10.

Epic is different. The way Epic is made in D&D 3.5, it basically is a collection of feats. Also, Epic Feats are a different plane of ability. The more you get, the better. Again, Improved Spell Capacity gets you higher level slots. You can research or work with DM to get spells on the higher level slots; it should be relatively simple to find Wiz/Sorc spells that suit you. That's good.

But the important part is that Epic Spellcasting lets you play on epic. It's the key to doing insane stuff. Unlocking it requires 5 Improved Spell Capacities meaning you want those bonus feats ASAP:

Akimu
2010-11-17, 10:46 PM
We have been playing this campaign for over 2 years, with no plans of stopping. We play others (take turns Dm'ng) but this one is our baby.

I had thought of Wiz, mostly because my INT is my next best stat. Some of those low lvl Wizard spells can help me, Silent Portal, Ghost sound, Mage Armor, etc... etc... I only leaned toward Sorcerer due to the way they cast is very similar to an assassin, keeping the character from having a big change. Besides my BAB and saves will go up the exact same no matter the class I lvl.

It's a tough sell in all directions for me. Maybe at 1 xp before lvl 21 I will start a fight I can not win and die, then a choice wouldn't have to be made... unless I'm brought back by Shar...

umbrapolaris
2010-11-17, 10:53 PM
if your Dm is understanding and allow you to "readjust" your character ; Void Incarnate is very nice.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a

Akimu
2010-11-17, 11:01 PM
Epic is different. The way Epic is made in D&D 3.5, it basically is a collection of feats. Also, Epic Feats are a different plane of ability. The more you get, the better. Again, Improved Spell Capacity gets you higher level slots. You can research or work with DM to get spells on the higher level slots; it should be relatively simple to find Wiz/Sorc spells that suit you. That's good.

But the important part is that Epic Spellcasting lets you play on epic. It's the key to doing insane stuff. Unlocking it requires 5 Improved Spell Capacities meaning you want those bonus feats ASAP:

So at lvl 27 ECL I would have the Imp Spell Cap's req'd, I would be able to cast lvl 9 spells, but only have up to lvl 4 spells known. Now i could see that helping with meta-spells, but I have none, and at this point I'm now running out of feats to gain. I can get epic spellcasting, but now I'm almost lvl 30 and dont have Lingering damage. I'm also EXTREMELY shy in the skill requirements. And at this point I don't think I can make up the difference. I see where that train is headed, and I'm not saying I don't want to be on it, I just don't think I can afford the ticket.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-11-17, 11:05 PM
The only thing I'm going to say is this: if your DM is allowing Tome of Battle, get one level of Swordsage, get Shadow Blade as a feat. This gives you DEX to damage.

If your DM isn't using it...good luck convincing them to allow just that one feat.

And what is the "Shadow Weave" progression? If it does the same and more, then disregard this post.

Akimu
2010-11-17, 11:14 PM
And what is the "Shadow Weave" progression? If it does the same and more, then disregard this post.

Shadow Weave magic is found in PGF. Characters cast magic with the shadow weave (refered to as the holes in the weave) as oppeosed to the weave. Bonus DC's, harder dispells against, harder spellcrafts against.

Runestar
2010-11-17, 11:35 PM
Note that at epic lvs, your death attack improves at +1 every 2 levels. So you may want to consider taking lvs in another class which grants death attack at a 1:1 rate.

You could consider one of the epic rogue prcs, but the problem would be that your death attack would not improve and gradually become more useless.

Also, you are aware of the spells in complete mage which lets you use death attack without having to wait for 3 rounds, right?

tyckspoon
2010-11-18, 01:30 AM
I had thought of Wiz, mostly because my INT is my next best stat. Some of those low lvl Wizard spells can help me, Silent Portal, Ghost sound, Mage Armor, etc... etc... I only leaned toward Sorcerer due to the way they cast is very similar to an assassin, keeping the character from having a big change. Besides my BAB and saves will go up the exact same no matter the class I lvl.

Do you guys play excessively low wealth/magic-item availability? If not, you should be dripping in money, and I would hope you have some ranks in Use Magic Device- by standard wealth, especially at Epic level, you could buy 10 scrolls of every single first-level spell and not really notice the cost. Certainly much cheaper than investing your levels in starting an entirely new spell progression, where most of the spells you get won't be at all relevant to actual Epic encounters... Wizard straight into something like Unseen Seer wouldn't be too bad, really, if you play more low-op Epic where it's mostly like pre-Epic play but all the numbers are pointlessly huge.

You could always go back to Rogue; 3 more levels would let you grab another Special Ability. Get Opportunist, perhaps, and then use it to qualify for Sneak Attack of Opportunity, which is pretty neat.

ericgrau
2010-11-18, 01:38 AM
You can also UMD staff(s) and practically be a caster, at least for the purpose of a small number of nonepic spells. Especially if you have a good int.

Akimu
2010-11-18, 03:18 PM
I was doing good with loot/money till we attacked the palace of waterdeep. We are extremely wanted there, and that was where I owned a warehouse full of coin, wares etc... kind of have to start rebuilding my wealth as the city guard and some epic npcs confiscated all we had there.
As far as using a staff or scrolls that's all good and I do, but I like to stay light so I have carry capacity for loot. Never know when you will find something shiny.
Maybe just splitting rogue and assassin lvls from here is the easiest solution. I've looked at a ton of classes, shadowdancer, master of many masks, hexblade, etc... etc... I think I've worn my books down flipping through over and over again... but at the same time easy isn't always the funnest, and the funnest isn't always effective.
Thanks for the input