Females wanting to be thin

[pendell]

Saw this article on livescience (http://www.livescience.com/culture/preschool-girls-thin-ideal-eating-disorders-101116.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Livesciencecom+%28LiveScience .com+Science+Headline+Feed%29)




Girls as young as 3 are already emotionally invested in being thin, to the point where some even will avoid touching game pieces that depict a fat individual, a small study on preschoolers suggests.


So my question for our females in the playground is -- nature or nurture? Does society really start programming children to be stick-figure women below the age of 3? Or is it a biological component, something genetic?

If you are a female, do you feel pressure to be thin? Does this come from inside yourself? Or were you taught by someone else, by TV or your parents or somebody? If we gave kids big, beefy bubushka dolls to play with rather than stick figure barbies, could we reverse this trend? Or is it something natural for women that can't be changed by programming?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dish]

Nurture. Definitely nurture. Believe it or not, there are still some (pretty isolated from the majority world culture) places where girls grow up wanting to be big, curvy, bonnie, and cuddly.

Trust me, i've been to one of them. They were all anxious about me because I was too thin.

However, those of us who grow up in the majority world culture tend to be indoctrinated into the 'thin is beautiful' thing so early that I believe most of us internalize it at a very young age. I think you would have to work really hard to bring a girl up so as to avoid this overwhelming cultural message.

ETA: I think that young boys also get this message, just a much lesser extent.

[Sipex]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). What we don't know is would these 3 year olds prefer the super skinny model or the average weight model?

[Cyrion]

Granted, I'm not a women, but...

I'd say that nurture is far more important- there are a fair number of cultures in which being fatter is being prettier.

[Spiryt]

Well, you have to define "thin".

I'm pretty sure that there is mechanism in every person that can see when one's just too thin, and similarly - when someone carries way too much needles fat/stuff.

[Zen Monkey]

It's a little of both. It's in our nature to be competitive with others in whatever displays we put on to make ourselves attractive. It's in the nurture part as to what specific traits are considered attractive. Two women might have different ideas of what makes a man a good provider, one looking for a big strong man and the other for a wealthy man. The men then pick up on social cues and compete for who appears stronger, wealthier, etc.

In short, people are pressured into being competitive everywhere, but it's the culture that dictates in what areas to compete.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I am not a woman, but there was a very interesting study (mentioned here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223641/Mothers-diet-twice-likely-daughters-eating-disorders.html) on the Daily Mail website, not the most wonderful source but there we go) that puts a lot of weight in the Nurture camp. The gist of it is that women who diet regularly are about twice as likely to have a daughter who develops an eating disorder, suggesting that the focus placed on food is potentially harming the relationship young people have with food.

[dish]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). [...]

The health thing can work both ways.

In less economically developed societies, one natural disaster, famine, or disease outbreak (think Haiti and cholera) could easily kill someone who was too thin (as in, someone who was malnourished). In those societies larger ladies are often preferred, as they have a greater chance of survival and of producing healthy offspring.

In developed countries, natural disasters, famines and disease outbreaks pose hardly any risk at all. In that case, the more slender lady has health benefits (less diabetes, lower risk of heart-attack or stroke, etc.)

[Strawberries]

Nurture, definitely nurture.

Have you taken a look at some European paintings from Renaissance or Baroque Era? The female ideal implued way fatter women than now.

EDIT: also, I'm a woman. I'm anything but thin (not exactly fat either, but a lot fatter than the "ideal"), but I really don't care. I realize I'm one of the few to not care, though.

[Elder Tsofu]

Why haven't this one come up yet?
http://vartichoke.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/mother-goddess.jpg

Culture, as people have said before. :smallsmile:

[Haruki-kun]

(but a lot fatter than the "ideal")

When you consider that the "ideal" can only be achieved with photoshop, that's not a bad thing.

[RebelRogue]

Since I'm pretty sure woman with a bit of fat on their bodies are more fertile then skinny ones, another vote for nurture here.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). What we don't know is would these 3 year olds prefer the super skinny model or the average weight model?

Are you aware of how dangerous being underweight or undernourished* is for a 3 year old? The harm that being underweight or malnourished can do, long term, to a toddler is arguably worse than the harm that can be done by being overweight. To take a single example, the risk of brittle bones, particularly in girls, is massive and the dangers posed are significant and life long.

*underweight to mean under a healthy weight, undernourished to mean not receiving sufficient nutrients.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Yeah, definitely need a definition of 'thin'.

Weight Scale
Anorexic, Runway Model, Thin, Slender, Curvy, Average, Pudgy, Chubby, Out of Shape, Overweight, Obese

Anorexic is deathly thin, Average may have a few extra pounds but nothing to comment on, Obese can barely walk.

Thin to Chubby is usually healthy.

For instance the body type of Christina Hendricks is my ideal. Curves without rolls. Very healthy without extra weight in places that could cause medical problems.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd say nurture. Granted I'm a man, but many decades ago wasn't it considered attractive for women to be a few pounds over weight?

[Evil DM Mark3]

Since I'm pretty sure woman with a bit of fat on their bodies are more fertile then skinny ones, another vote for nurture here.

This is true, or to be more precise sexual fertility is one of the first things that the body shuts down when facing shortages of nutrients and calories.

[Sipex]

Are you aware of how dangerous being underweight or undernourished* is for a 3 year old? The harm that being underweight or malnourished can do, long term, to a toddler is arguably worse than the harm that can be done by being overweight. To take a single example, the risk of brittle bones, particularly in girls, is massive and the dangers posed are significant and life long.

*underweight to mean under a healthy weight, undernourished to mean not receiving sufficient nutrients.

Whoa whoa, I never said underweight was good guys, no more attacks please. Crazy skinny women are scary to look at.

I will input, however, that a combination of nature and nuture can make skinny the favourable outcome.

Let's say a toddler, by nature, can identify someone who is TOO fat or TOO skinny (to unhealthyness here). Now, add in nurture which adds more "Fat is bad" and "Skinny is good" stigma to make skinny/average the favourable outcome.

Of course, then nurture tends to go overboard and average becomes lumped in with Fat.


edit: To clarify, average...to me, would be whatever your body can accomodate on a normal, 3 meal diet without crazy restrictions but without going overboard or underboard either. Usually something between 100-200 pounds depending on your body type.

edit2: These are ballpark numbers people, I could very well be wrong. I don't want rebuttals of "OH, I'M 250 pounds! Does that make me fat?!" because really, I don't know.

[Strawberries]

When you consider that the "ideal" can only be achieved with photoshop, that's not a bad thing.

Hmmm, nah, to be perfectly honest, I know a lot of real women who are way thinner than me. But since all most of them seem to talk about is how much calories a food have...I consider myself lucky. :smallwink:

Another interesting thing: the female ideal, at least im my country, shifted a lot in the last... oh, 70 years. If you ask my gran, she'll tell that all the current actresses and models, not to mention a big chunk of the girls in the streets, are unhealthy thin. Must have something to do with the fact she was born right at the end of one world war and survived through another, when being thin meant you were starving.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Let's say a toddler, by nature, can identify someone who is TOO fat or TOO skinny (to unhealthyness here). Now, add in nurture which adds more "Fat is bad" and "Skinny is good" stigma to make skinny/average the favourable outcome.

Of course, then nurture tends to go overboard and average becomes lumped in with Fat.Ah, well in that case I can see how that might work. This is a very insightful theory, although I wonder how you could examine it.

[Orzel]

Nuture. I'm male but the culture I grew up in exphasize on curves a lot more than overall thinness. Therefore the attractiveness of the thin has been artificially lowered on my visual priority by local society.

[Jessicat]

Nurture. And society and the media in general.

I went through the unfortunate experience of some emotional abuse that drove me to become so stressed that I refused to eat anything that was remotely "unhealthy". I found I was competing for attention between myself and another, slightly larger woman, and figured that as long as I stayed as the younger, skinner model that I had one step up on the other person.

When I got out of that situation, I gained some weight. Now everyone says I look "Healthy".

Yet there are other people who are explicitly telling me to not gain any MORE weight. (I am 5'6''/136 - very normal).

On the other side, I have friends that are overweight and insecure about it and they try and feed me stuff all the time to make themselves feel better. And It's only because everywhere you look, there's all these stick thin people prancing around and having pictures taken of them.

But I can't deny not wanting to be model thin. Its drilled into us that thin is beautiful. At least on this side of the world.

[Obrysii]

It most assuredly is culture.

For the bulk of human existance, having more "bulk" was a good sign - in colder climates it assisted (to some degree) and in warmer climates it was a sign of health and wealth.

It has only been in the last few centuries that "thin was in" - and then, look at the bulk of African cultures: thin is most certainly not in by choice.

Even in the U.S., I've found most guys much prefer a woman with a "bit of meat on her bones" - someone more curvy than stick-figure. It's only the media and the fashion folks who are after the super-thin. And unfortunently, that's the message women hear and see.

Personally, I'd rather have someone soft to cuddle with rather than someone who's going to be a hard mass of bones. But I'm a guy who isn't much of a looker, so perhaps I'm biased.



When I got out of that situation, I gained some weight. Now everyone says I look "Healthy".

Yet there are other people who are explicitly telling me to not gain any MORE weight. (I am 5'6''/136 - very normal).

You're in the "sweet-spot". At 5' 6" you could easily gain another twenty pounds and still be in that weight category that the majority of guys I know would drool over you. :smalltongue:

One of my friends is 5' 2" and due to medicational issues gained enough to get her close to 150 - but she remained desirable and beautiful - and here's a big reason why: personality. I'm not saying that she wasn't beautiful otherwise, but add her natural form to her personality and regardless of what she'd weigh (super skinny or heavier), she'd be beautiful.

What's more important is personality - a skinny girl with a bad personality is far less attractive than a heavier girl with a good personality.

That's the thing to cultivate. If you're friendly and nice, don't even worry about weight. The guys who matter don't care that you're 130 or 150 or 97 pounds - they care that you're fun to be with, fun to hang out with.

[Sipex]

It most assuredly is culture.

For the bulk of human existance, having more "bulk" was a good sign - in colder climates it assisted (to some degree) and in warmer climates it was a sign of health and wealth.

It has only been in the last few centuries that "thin was in" - and then, look at the bulk of African cultures: thin is most certainly not in by choice.

Even in the U.S., I've found most guys much prefer a woman with a "bit of meat on her bones" - someone more curvy than stick-figure. It's only the media and the fashion folks who are after the super-thin. And unfortunently, that's the message women hear and see.

Personally, I'd rather have someone soft to cuddle with rather than someone who's going to be a hard mass of bones. But I'm a guy who isn't much of a looker, so perhaps I'm biased.

I'll second you here, I've got no problem with a woman who's even a bit chubby (200 pounds on a 5'5" woman for example which isn't even really bad.)

A lot of my friends agree too, it's only when you get into certain sub cultures are all the guys into the stereotypical looks. I believe that as long as you find someone attractive (regardless of over, under, mid weight) you shouldn't restrict yourself.

[Crow]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

As far as we're concerned, underweight is just as unheathy as overweight. I certainly would not find myself attracted a girl who was 5'5" 200. But I wouldn't have a warm-fuzzy for a girl at 5'5" 105 either.

[Obrysii]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.

A great example is a woman from my high school. She was cute, but not "hot" - she was overweight in the "big boned" sort of way - but she was the fancy of quite a few guys, and why? She had such a powerful charisma that everyone was just entranced by her.

[Jessicat]

We teach our daughter that strong is beautiful. Neither "skinny", nor "curvy" are desirable. Rather, like her mom, an athletic build (lean, with muscle) is best. Hell, her mom is stronger than some of my guy friends, but looks like any other pretty woman for the most part, just much stronger.

I agree. I'd rather be fit and healthy and weigh more, than malnourished and only 108lbs.

[Mauve Shirt]

Nurture. I'm only convinced I'm fat because my parents constantly tell me to lose weight. At least, that's what I assume, since enough of my friends try to tell me I'm not fat.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I am curious as to why so much of a fuss is made over people's weights, and gain and loss thereof. So long as you're healthy (which weight doesn't even necessarilty affect), how is it anyone else's business?

[Crow]

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.

She can be herself all that she wants. But we're not going to neglect teaching her how to take care of her body. As parents, we have a responsibility to ensure the health and well-being of our children. Personality and good health are not mutually exclusive, and shouldn't be treated as such.

We teach by example. It's not like we force her into sports or anything else she doesn't want to do, but we do keep an eye on what we feed her. She does activities that she wants to do (usually because she sees us doing them all the time). She does exercises because she sees mom doing exercises, and she kicks balls and jumps and rolls off of things because she sees dad playing soccer and doing parkour.

[pendell]

You should teach her that being herself is beautiful. That personality counts far more than looks.


This is precisely why I married my current wife. She'll never be a runway model, but she loves others and is absolutely devoted to those she loves. Like a falcon, her trust is hard to win but once given is absolute.

She's quite a woman, and that has nothing to do with looks.

Still .. it seems as if for most people looks serve as advertising. The packaging makes people look closer. If the advertising isn't there, a lot of people won't take a second look to see the true beauty that lies underneath the skin.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Prime32]

If you ask my gran, she'll tell that all the current actresses and models, not to mention a big chunk of the girls in the streets, are unhealthy thin.Do you know why models are so thin?

It's harder to fit clothes to curves. Simple as that.


Not to mention that a large number of models haven't hit puberty, but are made up to look like adults. In photoshoots, their clothes are pinned back, and then the result is photoshopped.

So yeah, no one actually liked skinny women to begin with, but impossible physiques have been paraded around so much now that many women associate them with beauty via the halo effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect).

[Obrysii]

We teach by example. It's not like we force her into sports or anything else she doesn't want to do, but we do keep an eye on what we feed her. She does activities that she wants to do (usually because she sees us doing them all the time). She does exercises because she sees mom doing exercises, and she kicks balls and jumps and rolls off of things because she sees dad playing soccer and doing parkour.

Ok. That's more like it.

There's a lot of parents who do force their children to do these things for fear that their kids will become fat - and you know what happens? As soon as the kid gains control over their lives (ie, moving off to college) they splurge and very often do become fat.

[Perenelle]

I'd say nurture as well. I've been under a lot of pressure to be thin before, especially since I played soccer for a long time with girls who were often in incredibly good shape. From an early age I remembered people making fun of the people on the other teams just because they were a little (or a lot) bulkier than the sticks on my team. As much as I completely do not agree with all the emphasis on women to be stick figures, and have many friends who are definitely not runway models, I've found myself unhappy with how I look before. In reality i'm probably around average, but about two years ago I started doing sit ups and crunches every night (even though I really had nothing wrong with how I looked) in attempt to match the soccer players on my team who seemed to become obsessed with their weight. Now I don't care as much, but I see a lot of girls bigger than me pressured and made fun of by other people (especially in school).

If our culture were to change drastically and only full figured and average women were shown on magazine covers and TV, I do think that women (from an early age) would care less about their weight. Is it possible for our society to go from encouraging women to have thin, curve-less bodies to suddenly wanting full figured, heavier models? I don't know. But I do know that if society were to put less demands on women to be obsessed with their weight, a lot of girls would be happier.

[Jessicat]

Do you know why models are so thin?

It's harder to fit clothes to curves. Simple as that.


Not to mention that a large number of models haven't hit puberty, but are made up to look like adults. In photoshoots, their clothes are pinned back, and then the result is photoshopped.

So yeah, no one actually liked skinny women to begin with, but impossible physiques have been paraded around so much now...


Yes. Fashion models are supposed to be tall and skinny because clothing looks better on tall, skinny frames with no curves. These women are walking coathangers. What a lot of people don't realise is the fashion industry doesn't really want you to look at the model - you're supposed to be looking at the clothing - but most people end up focusing on these women who ALSO end up with eating disorders because their line of work means they have to be XXX measurement to get jobs.

[Cobra_Ikari]

EDIT: Ignore the quote, quoted wrong bit, makes no sense. >.<

I don't know about this, necessarily. While weight is a huge thing to focus on, many people are unhappy with their bodies in general. It is more important to help people accept themselves as beautiful than to change the standard of beauty to chase but never attain.



Random comment: While attempting to type "huge", I ended up typing "hugs" from straight muscle memory. =P Be well.

[Evil DM Mark3]

I am curious as to why so much of a fuss is made over people's weights, and gain and loss thereof. So long as you're healthy (which weight doesn't even necessarilty affect), how is it anyone else's business?

Common wisdom is that Hollywood is the cause of our modern obsession with thinness. Being very thin has been a rotating fashion for a very long time and was in fashion when the first films came out of Hollywood. Suddenly rather than being a trend in part of the US it became the definition of beauty all over the English speaking world. And it stuck. The first calorie control diets came about as a way to look like film stars (they even contained a pronunciation guide for the word Calorie).

[Cobra_Ikari]

Common wisdom is that Hollywood is the cause of our modern obsession with thinness. Being very thin has been a rotating fashion for a very long time and was in fashion when the first films came out of Hollywood. Suddenly rather than being a trend in part of the US it became the definition of beauty all over the English speaking world. And it stuck. The first calorie control diets came about as a way to look like film stars (they even contained a pronunciation guide for the word Calorie).

I meant more why is it that so many people feel they should add their opinion of "You should gain/lose x pounds" to people they don't even know?

[Prime32]

Common wisdom is that Hollywood is the cause of our modern obsession with thinness. Being very thin has been a rotating fashion for a very long time and was in fashion when the first films came out of Hollywood. Suddenly rather than being a trend in part of the US it became the definition of beauty all over the English speaking world. And it stuck. The first calorie control diets came about as a way to look like film stars (they even contained a pronunciation guide for the word Calorie).Remember when it was a sign of wealth not to have a tan? Er, I mean beauty. Why would I get those two confused? :smalltongue::smallwink:

[wxdruid]

My employer has told me I'm overweight for years, they think I should weigh the same as I did when I was in my mid 20's. Therefore, I think I'm overweight as well, and I have to work on eating properly and trying to be thinner, (but it doesn't really work very well) so I can pass the fitness test. I'll certainly never look the same as I did in college (having children, middle age and genetics all add to it) but my employer certainly doesn't follow that logic.

My daughter tells me I'm fine, but in the very next sentence tells me she's fat because her belly poofs out slightly. She's 12 and already thinking about it. One of her friends...her father tells her she's getting fat already and needs to watch it.

*sigh* I tell my daughter that she isn't chubby (because she certainly isn't), but, I don't think she believes me. Even when I point out that she tells me I'm not and she is. It's a good thing she still has a healthy appetite, but, still, it worries me that she already thinks this way.

[Lillith]

If you are a female, do you feel pressure to be thin?
Not anymore, I lost 10kg last year. I now just want to maintain my weight.

Does this come from inside yourself? Or were you taught by someone else, by TV or your parents or somebody?
Depends how you look at it. I was overweight and I wanted to be healthy. Personally I didn't like the shape of my figure either but I can't say if that's cause of tv or anything. I just had really fat legs, which made it impossible for me to find clothes that I liked.

If we gave kids big, beefy bubushka dolls to play with rather than stick figure barbies, could we reverse this trend? Or is it something natural for women that can't be changed by programming?
Some countries idolize fat women and stuff their daughters the entire day, so I think it's nurture.

Also a funny thing to think of, is that in history fat women were also idolized in the western world (aka Europe during that time) because fat was rare. Now with the large supply of food we have, thin is 'rare'. All of a sudden people idolize thin people. Coincidence?

[Frozen_Feet]

"Thin = beautiful" is obviously all nurture, and in fact I can easily go farther and say it's a by-product of the specific, well-faring industrial culture where having enough food is no longer hard, or a status symbol.

Because in some countries, anyone can have enough food to get overweight, people have taken to viewing slender bodystructure as a sign of willpower, strenght and health.

Unfortunately, this has then been skewed to absurd extremes by the fashion world; it's easier to design clothes for thin people and use thin models to display them, because it's easier to have a dress hang in the way you want it when your model has nothing "excess" on her body. So, because popular image is "models are beautiful" and costume designers want thin models, the popular image has transformed to "thin models are beautiful".

In nature, being thin is usually a sign you haven't had enough to eat; most animals, including us humans, have instinctive urge to indulge in eating when food is plentiful. (This instinct is strongest in people of those cultures who transitioned from hunting-gathering to agriculture relatively recently, and those peoples also have least adapted bodies to handle agricutural products. This theory has been presented as reason why second type diabetes is so common in Finland, for example.) Cue "obesity epidemic" where high-energy food is cheapest.

Personally, I've been off-put by girls talking about how they're "soooo fat". I'm 181 cm tall and weigh 70 kilos, amounting to BMI of 21.4, midpoint of healthy range. I'd be glad to gain few kilos more muscle and maybe even some healthy chub on top of that, because visually, I'm stick thin. I can count my ribs when I look in the mirror.

And then girls who have the same BMI and are equally thin complain they should lose weight. That's absurd, because the only thing you can lose at that point is muscle, which means your constitution will start to deteriorate if you cut your energy intake too much. Unfortunately, said girls won't take my insistence that they're already beautiful at face value. Oh well...

Speaking of which, males have body-type pressures too, but at least in Finland, the ideal is not to be thin, but buff. Be thin and you'll get called wimpy, nerdy or gay. However, in males, the visual side is still secondary to actual measure of strenght and likeability of person. (I'm hearing this is getting different in Japan - there, it's ideal for males to be thin and androgynous, and boys are as pressured to lose weight as much as girls. Hmmm. Maybe I should try to get a Japanese girlfriend...)

[Joran]

Remember when it was a sign of wealth not to have a tan? Er, I mean beauty. Why would I get those two confused? :smalltongue::smallwink:

It's whatever is harder. In Thailand, the fashion is to be as pale as possible; my wife's cousins all put on sunblock when they went outside.

P.S. My theory is that beauty is defined by whatever is harder. So, in the United States, since most people work indoors. Also, with tons of junk food and fresh produce being more expensive, being skinny is considered more attractive.

[WarKitty]

Definitely nurture. *sigh* It's one of those stupid things, really. I got a hell of a lot of compliment last time I lost weight - when I was down to 92 pounds or so. Inversely, I get people who absolutely cannot comprehend why I talk about an exercise program, because "You're already so skinny!" (5'1'' and 102lbs normally)

[Evil DM Mark3]

It's whatever is harder. In Thailand, the fashion is to be as pale as possible; my wife's cousins all put on sunblock when they went outside.

P.S. My theory is that beauty is defined by whatever is harder. So, in the United States, since most people work indoors. Also, with tons of junk food and fresh produce being more expensive, being skinny is considered more attractive.I think it is broader than this. I think it more a case of what is rarer, blonde hair is rare so blonde hair is less obtainable in a spouse, thus blonde hair is beautiful.

[Prime32]

It's whatever is harder. In Thailand, the fashion is to be as pale as possible; my wife's cousins all put on sunblock when they went outside.

P.S. My theory is that beauty is defined by whatever is harder. So, in the United States, since most people work indoors. Also, with tons of junk food and fresh produce being more expensive, being skinny is considered more attractive.Not harder. Harder without wealth. Getting a tan on the back of your neck from working in the fields all day is hard...

[Cobra_Ikari]

Huh. This thread had been reminding me of when I was a kid, and my mom forbid my sister from exercising or playing sports because she was too thin. =\

[Murdim]

Huh. This thread had been reminding me of when I was a kid, and my mom forbid my sister from exercising or playing sports because she was too thin. =\
... wait. How does that even make sense ? :smallyuk:

[WarKitty]

... wait. How does that even make sense ? :smallyuk:

There is such a thing as compulsive over-exercising. Often comes with eating disorders, it's pretty much where someone tries to work out to "burn fat" excessively without providing their bodies with proper nutrition in the first place. Can be quite dangerous, as your body doesn't have the energy to repair itself or keep going. OTOH, as long as you are getting sufficient nutrition and minding your own limits, exercise will not harm a healthy, physically normal person.

[cycoris]

Gotta chime in on "nurture".

I feel really lucky to have escaped most of the craze by living in China. Interestingly, I supposedly have an "ideal" American body shape (tall, skinny, blah blah), but I really dislike it and wish I could gain 10-20 pounds.

*beep beep beep* Captain Obvious alert, Captain Obvious alert!

Aesthetic tastes are not cultural universals.

Rant:
And when you act like they are, you're not only being ridiculously ethnocentric, but also perpetuating the idea that the way in which your culture happens to view something right now is the WAY IT IS, and by extension THE WAY IT SHOULD ALWAYS BE. :smallsigh:

[Cobra_Ikari]

There is such a thing as compulsive over-exercising. Often comes with eating disorders, it's pretty much where someone tries to work out to "burn fat" excessively without providing their bodies with proper nutrition in the first place. Can be quite dangerous, as your body doesn't have the energy to repair itself or keep going. OTOH, as long as you are getting sufficient nutrition and minding your own limits, exercise will not harm a healthy, physically normal person.

This is very true. I'm pretty sure the reason my mom did that was because she already did several physically-intensive activities, and adding these others for fun was making her lose weight when she was already on the underweight side.

But my sisters are tiny anyway, so...*shrugs*

[Trog]

I kind of doubt that a girl raised by wolves would be concerned about being skinnier. But most of us are not raised by wolves and so we create our norms based off of the people around us, so I'll go with nurture.

And, you know, some females want to gain weight too. :smallwink:

[SMEE]

And, you know, some females want to gain weight too. :smallwink:

You tell me. 20 lbs more would do wonders. :smallsigh:

[DeadManSleeping]

Personally, I've been off-put by girls talking about how they're "soooo fat". I'm 181 cm tall and weigh 70 kilos, amounting to BMI of 21.4, midpoint of healthy range. I'd be glad to gain few kilos more muscle and maybe even some healthy chub on top of that, because visually, I'm stick thin. I can count my ribs when I look in the mirror.

Gaining more weight might not help you. I'm a couple kilos heavier than you, and about 10 cm shorter, and I can still see most of my bottom ribs. The only difference is that I also have a gut (though it's not noticeable with most clothing, it's readily apparent if my torso is unclothed). Be careful what you wish for.

[Asta Kask]

You tell me. 20 lbs more would do wonders. :smallsigh:

You need a lesson in slobbing out.

[Drascin]

And, you know, some females want to gain weight too. :smallwink:

Tell me about it. My mom is all kinds of annoyed she doesn't manage to go over 55kg despite being as tall as me and eating about three times as much :smalltongue:.

[MeatShield#236]

Nurture, mostly due to a sad domino effect. Like others have said, the reason why models (the ideal standards of attractiveness, at least to some people,) are thin is so that the clothes can fit better. People see the thin models, and decide that being thin is beautiful. Hollywood (and other buisnesses) sees the trend of wanting to be thin and adapts accordingly. Other people see thin actors/actresses and want to be thin. And so on and so forth.

In the end, what you get is a self-perpetuating cultural trend that that leads to some very unhealthy habits and some very sad tales.

[smellie_hippie]

I am curious as to why so much of a fuss is made over people's weights, and gain and loss thereof. So long as you're healthy (which weight doesn't even necessarilty affect), how is it anyone else's business?

I think this may be a large reason for opening this discussion.

I agree with you. If you are healthy then it is nobody else's business. HOWEVER.... how often have you found people to be respectful enough to mind their own business? How often do advertisers and such promote ONE image as being 'desirable' and then putting out an obligatory 'but this one is pretty nice too'?

The fuss isn't about the number in regards to weight but about which kind of image is presented. That has a tendency to make it other's business, even if it's as simple as making eye contact with one woman but having the occasional 'roving eye' if you converse with another one.

[Marnath]

I'm surprised we've made it this far without mentioning that men get this hammered into them too, not as bad but it's definately there. Girls see the stick thin models on the runway, we see the heavily muscled shirtless dudes with like no body fat. I can hardly be the only guy who sees that and wishes he could lose weight and get in shape like the guy on the poster, who is generally surrounded by pretty girls. I'm not overweight by any stretch of the imagination either. 155 pounds at 5 foot 7inches.

[Frozen_Feet]

Be careful what you wish for.

In my case, it'll prolly stay as that: a wish. My body burns off energy so fast I can eat absurd amounts and still stay wiry. I'll prolly have to work some high-energy protein paste into my diet if I want to swing my weight one way or the other. XD

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Have to agree with nurture. I've personally known some girls who were naturally slim (fast metabolism in the family), but have never really met any girls with eating disorders. The closest I've ever been to something like that has been my sister, who has blossomed into a voluptuous young woman, but feels the need to exercise often because she wants to work in theater, and theater prefers slim to voluptuous. She's not anorexic or bulimic or anything. She just does more to take care of herself than say, me. It's especially sad since she looks almost exactly like my late grandmother on my father's side, who was a model back in the days when models could be voluptuous.

I, however, sort of think differently. Sometime when I was young my impressions of beauty somehow got cross-wired, because now I'm what's sometimes called an FA, or Fat Admirer. And when it comes to the beefy male models, I've kind of not admired them either, content to be more than a little chubby.

I know technically it's not a bad thing, and that there are people out in the world like me, but how the heck does one admit that they like fat women and was interested in having a relationship that may involve weight gain?

[Evil DM Mark3]

In my case, it'll prolly stay as that: a wish. My body burns off energy so fast I can eat absurd amounts and still stay wiry. I'll prolly have to work some high-energy protein paste into my diet if I want to swing my weight one way or the other. XD

Or wait for your metabolism to slow down. It depends on how old you are but if you are in the core demographic for this forum this could happen at any time.

[Frozen_Feet]

In that case, looking at my close relatives who share the trait, I'll likely have to wait past my fifties.

[Evil DM Mark3]

In that case, looking at my close relatives who share the trait, I'll likely have to wait past my fifties.

:smalleek:

OK then, well I can tell you what NOT to do. DO NOT up your calorie intake to try and gain weight. Doing that will just make you cholesterol soar.

[LightsOnNo1Home]

I'm surprised we've made it this far without mentioning that men get this hammered into them too, not as bad but it's definately there. Girls see the stick thin models on the runway, we see the heavily muscled shirtless dudes with like no body fat. I can hardly be the only guy who sees that and wishes he could lose weight and get in shape like the guy on the poster, who is generally surrounded by pretty girls. I'm not overweight by any stretch of the imagination either. 155 pounds at 5 foot 7inches.

This. I am overweight, 280 lbs on a 6'2" frame, with only averge muscle mass. It hit me quite quickly, I gained 100lbs over the course of one winter, and the drop in the amount of people who made their attraction to me known (which I can only equate to "people who were attracted to me) was extremely marked and noticeable.

I grant though that however much pressure us guys feel to be lean and muscular, it isn't half of the pressure level that is put on women.

[Frozen_Feet]

:smalleek:

OK then, well I can tell you what NOT to do. DO NOT up your calorie intake to try and gain weight. Doing that will just make you cholesterol soar.

High-energy does not equal high-colesterol, nor does high-colesterol always equal unhealthy. I could probably double the amount of vegetables, fruits and fish I eat and would only be better off as a result. I could also add insects to my diet, it's been scientifically proven insect proteins are da best for us hoomanz. :smallbiggrin:

[Evil DM Mark3]

High-energy does not equal high-colesterol, nor does high-colesterol always equal unhealthy. I could probably double the amount of vegetables, fruits and fish I eat and would only be better off as a result. I could also add insects to my diet, it's been scientifically proven insect proteins are da best for us hoomanz. :smallbiggrin:True, but the only simple ways to massively ramp up energy density will result in cholesterol intake.

[Frozen_Feet]

Nope. I could spend whole evening listing high-energy foods that lack cholesterol, or actually reduce it; it's more difficult to find a source of protein that doesn't cause cholesterol problems, but I'm fairly sure modern sport products have something like that already.

And there's always fish. And insects. Mmmmm, tasty insects...

Actually, what are the complex methods you might be thinking? At its core, all this amounts to is me stuffing even more food down my throat.

[Spiryt]

Nope. I could spend whole evening listing high-energy foods that lack cholesterol, or actually reduce it; it's more difficult to find a source of protein that doesn't cause cholesterol problems, but I'm fairly sure modern sport products have something like that already.

And there's always fish. And insects. Mmmmm, tasty insects...


It doesn't matter, if they lack cholesterol, since most of it is anyway synthesized in your liver and other organs.

It's more than probable that too much energy would mean producing more of it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that forcing too much food and too much calories won't be ever healthy for anyone.

[Keld Denar]

Protein shakes (mix them from powder, don't buy pre-mixed ones) are an excellent source of raw protien. You get a fair amount of carbs with them, which for you doesn't sound like a problem. I'd suggest Whey, since it has the highest biological value (BV) of all the various suppliments, assuming you aren't alergic or otherwise intolerant of dairy products. Most of them are rather delicious and make an excellent suppliment to breakfast and lunch, which is the best time to consume them (assuming you aren't working out...post workout is the absolute best time to consume them, generally speaking). If you buy bulk containers, they only run you about $.25 to $.50 per shake, as opposed to the $1-2 you'd pay for pre-mixed shakes (which are like, 75% packaging fees). Once you have buy a 5 lb container of shake, you don't need to buy another one for quite a few months, depending on consumption rates. Other than that, I'd highly suggest buying a couple of "blender bottles" which are simply sport bottles with a wire whisk in them. The whisk REALLY helps with powder clotting, the biggest complaint with powdered suppliments. Just spoon in the recommended amount, fill with water, shake, and drink. Yummy!

Protein, in contrast to sugars, do not cause an insulin spike, and thus do not cause your body to go into "storage" mode. Thusly, most of the excess protein you can't metabolize immediately is peed out harmlessly, making it REALLY hard to "overdose" on protein.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Nope. I could spend whole evening listing high-energy foods that lack cholesterol, or actually reduce it; it's more difficult to find a source of protein that doesn't cause cholesterol problems, but I'm fairly sure modern sport products have something like that already.

And there's always fish. And insects. Mmmmm, tasty insects...

Actually, what are the complex methods you might be thinking? At its core, all this amounts to is me stuffing even more food down my throat.No, the SIMPLE way is to make the food higher energy. Eating fried food for example. Eating MORE food is more complex.

[Frozen_Feet]

It doesn't matter, if they lack cholesterol, since most of it is anyway synthesized in your liver and other organs.

It's more than probable that too much energy would mean producing more of it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that forcing too much food and too much calories won't be ever healthy for anyone.

Most of cholesterol is synthezised by one's own body, yes, but the composition of food affects which kinds of cholesterols are created, and a proper diet will actually remove harmful ones from your body. Most cholesterols are beneficial, even vital, and cropping them up with weight is inevitable - it does not, however, pose a health problem on its own.

And forcing too much food will be a problem, especially if the quality of food is bad; the thing is, my body has supereffective metabolism anyhow, I know it can deal with a vastly increased energy intake. All I have to do is take care what I eat is good for me, too. Well, I guess 'working out' enters the picture somewhere too, but I need to double my karate exercises anyway. XD

Thanks for the protein shake tip, Keld Denar.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Sorry, I get paranoid that I may end up putting bad ideas in people's heads.

[CoffeeIncluded]

It's almost all nurture. Personally, at about 5'2 and 119 pounds, I could stand to drop a few, but I'm okay where I am as long as I don't gain any more. But this is a health thing more than anything else because high cholesterol and diabetes runs in my family.

I was really upset when I hit puberty though; I gained about 20 pounds in a year and I didn't make any changes to my diet or exercise, and I used to be really skinny and I'm still a bit upset about that. :smallfrown:

[Sipex]

It's almost all nurture. Personally, at about 5'2 and 119 pounds, I could stand to drop a few, but I'm okay where I am as long as I don't gain any more. But this is a health thing more than anything else because high cholesterol and diabetes runs in my family.

I was really upset when I hit puberty though; I gained about 20 pounds in a year and I didn't make any changes to my diet or exercise, and I used to be really skinny and I'm still a bit upset about that. :smallfrown:

This.

This is just a shame.

Damn you society.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

See, weight shouldn't really be an issue. It's healthiness.

For instance, because of a sporting injury I was laid up for quite some time years ago. Gained a whole lot of weight. Even with my bum leg and weight I could still hike all day or jog slowly for at least a mile.

My twin brothers are skinny by nature (and both over six foot), one of those annoying people who could eat 10,000 calories a day and ask for a second helping and still have their ribs showing. They couldn't keep up with me at my lowest health. I was large at the time, but still far healthier than these thin calorie burners. Could work them into the ground. Because I ate healthier, and was far more active. They'd rather stay in and play video games all day. You can be a sloth and a glutton and not have a single ounce of extra fat.

Health, that's what should matter, not weight.

Not to say you shouldn't lose excess if its unhealthy or weighs you down. As soon as my leg was healed I lost 80 lbs. over the course of two years. I'm not built to be skinny, but I can be fit.

If you can't run around a yard for a few minutes without gasping then you're unhealthy, regardless of how you look.

[Frozen_Feet]

Coffee: why were you upset about that? That's just this thing called 'growing up'.

Actually, it brings to mind that the obsession with thinness causes many young teenagers to become anxious of normal growth of their bodies; due to stigma of obesity, peer pressure and all that jazz, kids try to be too perfect too young, when their bodies are still in the middle of reshaping themselves.

On another note, I just love a thread about girls wanting to be thin took a detour about me wanting to be fat. XD

[CoffeeIncluded]

This.

This is just a shame.

Damn you society.

It's because I'm not very athletic, so the weight I need to drop is fat, not muscle. But I'm pretty okay with myself now. It's not that I'm fat, it's just that losing a couple of pounds around my midsection couldn't hurt.


Coffee: why were you upset about that? That's just this thing called 'growing up'.

Actually, it brings to mind that the obsession with thinness causes many young teenagers to become anxious of normal growth of their bodies; due to stigma of obesity, peer pressure and all that jazz, kids try to be too perfect too young, when their bodies are still in the middle of reshaping themselves.

On another note, I just love a thread about girls wanting to be thin took a detour about me wanting to be fat. XD

It's annoying because I used to be really skinny and so coupled with the fact that I'm short I could squeeze into small places more easily than I can now and I really miss that.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Actually archeologists these days agree Venus statuettes aren't ideals of beauty like Greek or Roman statues, rather they're fertility (aka "mother") goddesses. Kinda like Big Momma in African American culture... Hardly the epitome of beauty but at the same time a very important cultural archetype.

There is lots of research that supports that men on average don't care about weight per se as long as... there is a 3:2 hip to waist ratio (ideally 3:2:3 with chest but the last part is less important). It's just that if you're too thin, you look completely flat, like a dude (other meaning not intended). If you're too fat, chances are your waist is actually larger than your hips.

Oh, and BMI is a pretty crappy estimator of how healthy or obese someone is unless they don't exercise or even do physical activity at all. Case in point: me. I have 25.8 BMI, which would be very much overweight... Then again, I have around 13% body fat. Think of that what you will :tongue:

[Coidzor]

^: Not to mention wider than one's breasts which is just visually and aesthetically awkward.
It's annoying because I used to be really skinny and so coupled with the fact that I'm short I could squeeze into small places more easily than I can now and I really miss that.

:smallfrown: Err.... That's just being a kid and you can't really recapture that. MJ spent millions trying and failing, after all.

[Haruki-kun]

Oh, and BMI is a pretty crappy estimator of how healthy or obese someone is unless they don't exercise or even do physical activity at all. Case in point: me. I have 25.8 BMI, which would be very much overweight... Then again, I have around 13% body fat. Think of that what you will :tongue:

Means you have a higher amount of muscle mass. Which is good. Personally, I'm working towards more muscle mass and less fat.

Also points out that males aren't completely safe from all this body image issues thing.

[WarKitty]

Male body image is pretty messed up too. The BMI, from what I understand, was also not tested on a racially diverse group. That's why so many more black people are overweight - because the biological set point is higher.

[CoffeeIncluded]

^: Not to mention wider than one's breasts which is just visually and aesthetically awkward.

:smallfrown: Err.... That's just being a kid and you can't really recapture that. MJ spent millions trying and failing, after all.

Doesn't stop it from being annoying. But I'm better now.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Actually I don't care about muscles. I'd be happier if I had no muscles but my love handles (left over from when I was pretty overweight) were gone. It's just that I really like to work out.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh, and BMI is a pretty crappy estimator of how healthy or obese someone is unless they don't exercise or even do physical activity at all. Case in point: me. I have 25.8 BMI, which would be very much overweight... Then again, I have around 13% body fat. Think of that what you will :tongue:

Very true. Muscular people usually defy categorizations by BMI, and there are several additional measurements accompanying it nowadays to give a better picture of actual health.

In fact, that's why I stressed I look thin myself, despite being ostensibly normal weight - there are people who spend more time staring at a scale than a mirror. There are places in a human's body where there should be fat and places where there shouldn't, but the former does little to tell you that. It might be weight is talked in too abstract terms these days, with too little attention being paid to what weight actually means and consists of.

[Haruki-kun]

Male body image is pretty messed up too. The BMI, from what I understand, was also not tested on a racially diverse group. That's why so many more black people are overweight - because the biological set point is higher.

I don't have the link here, but I found a study from a university in which male students were given a set of pictures and asked what the ideal body image would be. Most picked very muscular physiques.


Actually I don't care about muscles. I'd be happier if I had no muscles but my love handles (left over from when I was pretty overweight) were gone.

I wouldn't. I started working out two years ago and I feel a lot better about my image than I did back then. I feel a lot more secure with muscles than I did without. Even if I'm not exactly lean.

[Coidzor]

Male body image is pretty messed up too. The BMI, from what I understand, was also not tested on a racially diverse group. That's why so many more black people are overweight - because the biological set point is higher.

Really? I had always been lead to believe that diet was the bigger influence there.

[WarKitty]

Really? I had always been lead to believe that diet was the bigger influence there.

It's a mix of things. There's also what's known as food deserts - places where you essentially can't buy fresh food, only prepackaged stuff.

[Don Julio Anejo]

It's a mix of things. There's also what's known as food deserts - places where you essentially can't buy fresh food, only prepackaged stuff.
Out of curiousity, what do you mean by this?

[WarKitty]

Out of curiousity, what do you mean by this?

It's something that comes up in discussions of weight. Certain inner city areas (detroit is one iirc) have pretty much exclusively pre-packaged food available, which is higher in fat and salt than fresh food.

[Frozen_Feet]

Ie. there are places where food is abundant, but the quality of it sucks; it's possible eat all day long and still suffer from malnutrition, because the cheap, prepackaged goods don't have valuable nutritives. I don't even want to start about all unsavory additives and preservants. This is the case for many lower class Americans - they can afford a lot of food, but not the kind of food that'd keep them healthy.

[pendell]

It's not that I'm fat, it's just that losing a couple of pounds around my midsection couldn't hurt.


Are you sure it's fat you need to lose and not muscle tone you need to gain? They are two different problems with two different solutions. I have a hard time believing that a 5'2'' inch person is overweight at 119 pounds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Are you sure it's fat you need to lose and not muscle tone you need to gain? They are two different problems with two different solutions. I have a hard time believing that a 5'2'' inch person is overweight at 119 pounds.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I never said I was overweight!

[Katana_Geldar]

Have you taken a look at some European paintings from Renaissance or Baroque Era? The female ideal implued way fatter women than now.


There's a bit more to it than that...

Being fat actually showed how rich you were, as it was the poor who were thin and starved. And now, it's kinda the other way around.

[pendell]

I never said I was overweight!

You said you needed to lose weight .. ???

If you're not overweight, then the midriff will probably not be fixed by weight loss. IIRC, fat on a female comes in different varieties -- some of it the body just doesn't let go of , and finds other places to ditch the surplus from. I believe the stomach and midriff is one of those sections that the body tries to preserve at all costs.

Sounds like a job for muscle tone.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Evil DM Mark3]

There's a bit more to it than that...

Being fat actually showed how rich you were, as it was the poor who were thin and starved. And now, it's kinda the other way around.

...

I just realised.

We live in a world (as in the political North West) where poor people tend to have a detrimentally high level of a fundamental resource for life.

...

HOW??

[Coidzor]

I never said I was overweight!

What he's trying to say is that your fat, since you're a female, will more naturally gel with the muscle mass you build up via working out, thus creating a smoother contour for your midsection than if you simply eliminated the fat.

[snoopy13a]

Oh, and BMI is a pretty crappy estimator of how healthy or obese someone is unless they don't exercise or even do physical activity at all. Case in point: me. I have 25.8 BMI, which would be very much overweight... Then again, I have around 13% body fat. Think of that what you will :tongue:

25.8 is only slightly overweight by US standards*. It is the BMI of 5'10 180 pound man (which most people would actually see as average). Actually, for the large majority of people, BMI is a fairly good estimator. The main exceptions are:

1) People who have signficant muscle mass such as those who regularly strength-train
2) Elderly people who have experienced signficant muscle loss

Most people are not in these two categories and have average muscle mass. Thus, the BMI is applicable to them. Unfortunately, people look at the extreme exceptions such as the 5'8 210 pound NFL running back who is a solid block of muscle with little body fat (and thus very healthy) and is classified as obese by the scale. This makes them believe that the BMI scale is worthless. They don't realize that this person is the exception and not the rule.

It is really only those who strength-train that have healthy weights despite higher BMIs. Those who only endurance-train do not usually build up muscle mass. In fact, the best long distance runners usually have BMIs of around 19-20.

The standards for men are much easier than women. A man can be up to 20 pounds or so overweight before his weight starts to become an issue. Few people think of a 6' 200 pound man as having a weight problem (even though he is 16 pounds overweight). In fact, men of "average" weight (in quotes because the average US man is overweight) are perceived as thin.

*The healthy BMI ranges (which of course are estimations based on average muscle mass) depend partly on ethnicity. Japan's ranges are 23-25 for overweight and 25+ for obese. Singapore is 23-27 for overweight and 27+ for obese. US is 25-30 for overweight and 30+ for obese.

[Coidzor]

...

I just realised.

We live in a world (as in the political North West) where poor people tend to have a detrimentally high level of a fundamental resource for life.

...

HOW??

And other areas of the world people still starve while various developed nations actually limit their food production by paying people who own land not to grow crops in order to not drive prices through the floor.

Truly, ours is a mad world.

[Frozen_Feet]

...

I just realised.

We live in a world (as in the political North West) where poor people tend to have a detrimentally high level of a fundamental resource for life.

...

HOW??

Boring answer: logistics, or lack there of. To smartly distribute resources, all humans would need to work in unison to create and maintain the distribution network. That kinda hasn't happened yet.


What he's trying to say is that your fat, since you're a female, will more naturally gel with the muscle mass you build up via working out, thus creating a smoother contour for your midsection than if you simply eliminated the fat.

More to the point, Coffee, you can't lose weight from where you want. Human bodies are funny - they tend to focus new fat on certain areas, but when you go on a diet, fat is substracted evenly from your whole body. So trying to lose weight would possibly have minimal effect on your midsection while making you look wimpy otherwise.

Thus, working out to tone your muscles would be a better option. Ironically enough, growing muscle mass might make you heavier even though you'd look better.

[Coidzor]

Also IIRC, muscle mass has a tendency to om nom on fat since muscles need more energy to maintain themselves.

[Crow]

Oh, and BMI is a pretty crappy estimator of how healthy or obese someone is unless they don't exercise or even do physical activity at all. Case in point: me. I have 25.8 BMI, which would be very much overweight... Then again, I have around 13% body fat. Think of that what you will :tongue:

That is my BMI on the dot. Crazy coincidence. Of course, I'm a little below 10%, but still.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hence why I swim and bike. Thanks guys, but I'm pretty comfortable about my body.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, BMI doesn't work when you are athletic. When I was in Bawston working out with a trainer, I was 185 and had 6-pack abs. I was like, 24.5 or so, IIRC. I yelled at the guy who took my BMI, telling him that I was in the best shape of my life. I was down to like, 10.5-11% body fat.

When I started working out again here about 5 months ago, I dropped 2 pants sizes in about 6 weeks, but my weight stayed EXACTLY the same, 204.4-204.8. Thats the conversion of fat to muscle. Then, when I stopped working out for 2 weeks cause I got sick, I magically lost 5 pounds even though my eating habits didn't change dramatically.

Stupid body...never does what I tell it to...grrrrr.

[Coidzor]

Hence why I swim and bike. Thanks guys, but I'm pretty comfortable about my body.

No! you must be able to armwrestle your selected mate into submission to assert dominance! :smalltongue:

[DeadManSleeping]

No! you must be able to armwrestle your selected mate into submission to assert dominance! :smalltongue:

I know a girl or two who actually subscribe to this philosophy. Sadly, that type of girl seems to dislike me (moreso than any other type, I mean). I dunno what it is.

And I just remembered how many girls I know who are thin yet talk about needing to lose some weight. I have avoided telling them that they had better not because it will probably make their breasts and other secondary sexual features less pronounced.

[RabbitHoleLost]

If you are a female, do you feel pressure to be thin? Does this come from inside yourself? Or were you taught by someone else, by TV or your parents or somebody? If we gave kids big, beefy bubushka dolls to play with rather than stick figure barbies, could we reverse this trend? Or is it something natural for women that can't be changed by programming?

I feel pressure to be healthy, because being healthy is attractive. I think a lot of people confuse this issue.
Being skinny= healthy.
Being too skinny, unless you've always been that way =/= healthy.

I've been stressed about my weight lately because I gained 30 pounds over the past year. I'm beating myself up over it, really, because its harder to fit into my pants.
I don't know if its normal that I stress more over whether or not people view me as healthy more than whether or not they see me as attractive, and that I'm more stressed about spending money on new jeans rather than I should be worried that I'm too pudgy to fit in my old ones anymore >>

[Trog]

Gonna weigh in on one of the usually blamed root causes for the whole body image phenomenon: Advertising.

Advertisers are not fully to blame for the preponderance of models used in ads. Readers are just as much to blame. Yes, you.

Now, for a bit of background, I've worked as a graphic designer for a newspaper for 13 years and during that time I read a lot of info on the subject of making an effective ad. Now there was a study done among newspaper readers (and real the study's general patterns could likely be extended to any visual advertising medium) to track the reader's eye movement on the page to see, in effect, what grabbed reader's attentions. Those eye tracking results done on a wide sampling of people of all ages and both genders found out this:

An ad with a person in it had more views than one without. An ad with a professional model (read attractive person) in it got more views than one without. An ad with a professional model using the product got the most views.

Why is this? Simple. It's because as human we are wired to look at other humans. It's what draws our eyes the most. And we ALL prefer to look at people who are more attractive than at less attractive ones. Since readers and thus customers of all goods and services will look at your business' ad more (thus potential increasing it's effectiveness) a lot of advertisers do this. The product use part comes in because it combines both things that drove you to the ad - the product and the model.

So I know that advertisers can be an easy scape goat for perpetuating the pictures of models and thus an unrealistic body image for many people. And in the case of, say, that one Dove ad where they show what a model might go through physically and digitally to be considered beautiful in print there is a good point to be made in saying that advertising is the bad guy here. Many do take things way too far.

But I'll just remind everyone that the concept of attractive people used to sell stuff is based off of the viewing habits as shown by research of you the reading public. If research showed otherwise likely ads would trend that way. So if you want to do your part to help combat that... stop looking at beautiful people in advertising. :smallwink:

---

I'd also like to mention that a pretty face beats a pretty body any day.

[DeadManSleeping]

I'd also like to mention that a pretty face beats a pretty body any day.

No kidding! I'll admit, though that a healthy (not necessarily skinny) body weight tends to leave a more attractive face.

[Coidzor]

Still doesn't excuse pushing the envelope to the point where it negatively impacts the easily influenced enough to be noticed enough to be commented upon as a social phenomenon.

And considering book bannings still occur in western society, we apparently feel that there is some obligation to them.

[Eldonauran]

I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I don't care what advertising or the fashion industry are trying to push. If I can see your rib bones, I feel nothing but a need to feed you.

My personal preference is 'soft and curvy' as far as body types go. Overly muscular women :yuk: Me no likely.

[DeadManSleeping]

If I can see your rib bones, I feel nothing but a need to feed you.

I read "feed on you" here for a second, and I felt happy. The fit shall devour the weak! Let's roast those Eloi ************s! :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

...Now I'm hungry and confused. Dangit thread!

[pendell]

Advertisers are not fully to blame for the preponderance of models used in ads. Readers are just as much to blame. Yes, you.



Which is part of the reason I started a thread. What kind of advertising has a three-year-old seen?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

PS. I'm glad you're happy with your body, Coffee :). Apologies if I gave any other impression. -- BDP.

[Coidzor]

Which is part of the reason I started a thread. What kind of advertising has a three-year-old seen?

Potentially quite a bit. Not as much advertising for barbies in this day and age but I believe certain bits of it are still about in what would come on between children's programming.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Considering how fat people are these days, wanting to be A BIT thin is probably a good thing these days.

[snoopy13a]

Considering how fat people are these days, wanting to be A BIT thin is probably a good thing these days.

There's nothing wrong with being thin.

The problem is people endangering their health trying to be thin (those with eating disorders and those who yo-yo diet) and those who suffer self-esteem problems because they aren't thin (or they are thin and don't believe it).

[Coidzor]

Basically the extra psychological damage people seem to be taking.

[Trog]

Still doesn't excuse pushing the envelope to the point where it negatively impacts the easily influenced enough to be noticed enough to be commented upon as a social phenomenon.
I never made excuses for anyone, reader or advertiser. Just pointing out some of the research facts that help drive things is all.

[Salbazier]

I easily understand why people want to be thinner -even if that's not always good or rational- but why someone want to gain weight?

[Vaynor]

I easily understand why people want to be thinner -even if that's not always good or rational- but why someone want to gain weight?

If they're skinny to the point of being unhealthy.

[WarKitty]

Even if it's not unhealthy, sometimes it's annoying not having the fat layer to keep you warm and keep you going longer.

[Coidzor]

I once dated a girl who was told to gain some weight by her doctor, actually. Sadly, my feeding her gratuitous amounts of cake was to no avail. Nor were my attempts to get the two of us to start working out together.

[Thes Hunter]

There's a lot of great responses here, and a lot of great things have already been said.


I will re-emphasize that from the medical perspective, it IS better to be overweight and healthy (regular exercise, and 5-9 fruits and veges a day without a lot of crap) than it is to be skinny and a fast food eating couch potato.

Our culture doesn't necessarily buy that though. I have heard people talk about not wanting to be friends with certain people because they looked 'un-healthy' aka. fat, and if the fattie didn't care enough to 'take care of themselves' why should they (the thinnie) want to be the fattie's friend?

It can get really disgusting how pervasive in society how deeply the negative stereotypes based on weight can go. Overweight people have a harder time getting jobs, doctors are less likely to treat overweight people because they assume they are non-compliant.

I was teased mercilessly in high school about being overweight... when my BMI was 21.7 (right smack dab in the middle of healthy). About this time I started to form the idea that I was a 'fat girl' (and binge eat because of this identification) even though I was a normal weight.

When I lost weight my freshmen year in college, I was told I needed to "lose just a couple more pounds to be really HOT!". At the time I was less than 5 lbs above an Underweight BMI (18.5).

Since then I have taken the worst course possible in terms of increasing my medical risk. I have swung 60-70 or more pounds every 5 or so years. When I started med school last year, I was verging on the Class 3 Obesity (a BMI of greater than 40). Right now I have lost a good amount of weight again and am finally rocking out the Class 1 Obesity (30-35 BMI) again. (As a side note, my current biggest fear is that when clerkships, and residency come I will regain the weight because I will be so busy and stressed and the only food available to me at 3AM after a 38 hr. shift is grease run down your arm pizza from the cafeteria, and I regain the weight again, and again redouble my risk of obesity related complications)

The reason I mention my history of weight losses and gains is to illustrate that I have experienced the way society treats me at different sizes. The more overweight I am, the more likely I am ignored. For example sharing an elevator... If I am overweight, it is more likely a man will not wait for me to get on first, nor hold the door for me. If I ask what floor, the more overweight I am, the more likely a man will give non-verbal language of disgust and that I am beneath him. The more thin I am, the more likely a man will hold the door for me, engage in conversation, or be receptive to small talk. I use a man as an example, because the difference is bigger with men, while the same trend exists for women it is less uniform, and less pronounced.

I have also found that the higher the man's socio-economic status (Or at least the men who make their higher socio-economic status more obvious) the lower the BMI 'threshold' where the prejudice begins. As if interacting with people who are thinner raises their status.

I think what the OP's article is saying, is that children even as young as 3 have already observed the unequal treatment, and since they wish to be valued members of society are already trying to avoid something that so obviously devalues people in this society.


So, I am quite firmly on the side of Nurture.

And, It's not as much about being "Healthy" as society and the media have us believing.

[Crow]

And, It's not as much about being "Healthy" as society and the media have us believing.

Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't have 14-21 year-old young men wearing their sisters' skinny pants.

[mangosta71]

And, It's not as much about being "Healthy" as society and the media have us believing.
Society expects us all to be skin and bones while eating fast food three times a day and doing nothing but play video games. We're constantly bombarded with advertisements for magical products that claim to take the fat off our bodies with no effort on our part.

[Coidzor]

I have also found that the higher the man's socio-economic status (Or at least the men who make their higher socio-economic status more obvious) the lower the BMI 'threshold' where the prejudice begins. As if interacting with people who are thinner raises their status.

Ugh. The nouveau riche, they probably actually do believe that. :smallyuk:



I think what the OP's article is saying, is that children even as young as 3 have already observed the unequal treatment, and since they wish to be valued members of society are already trying to avoid something that so obviously devalues people in this society.

Indeed. This saddens me even more than the ignorance of grown members of our society.

[blackfox]

Society expects us all to be skin and bones while eating fast food three times a day and doing nothing but play video games.This describes my life perfectly. Thank Dog for being 19. :smallamused:

[Frozen_Feet]

I easily understand why people want to be thinner -even if that's not always good or rational- but why someone want to gain weight?


If they're skinny to the point of being unhealthy.

Also, if they want to get stronger and/or look more buff. Muscle is three times denser than fat, if you want to improve your physique, often you end up heavier for it.

[Om]

Advertisers are not fully to blame for the preponderance of models used in ads. Readers are just as much to blame. Yes, youWhich ignores the role that media (including advertising) plays in shaping popular perceptions as to just what is beautiful

[Crow]

Which ignores the role that media (including advertising) plays in shaping popular perceptions as to just what is beautiful

If putting fat and ugly people into advertisements worked, you'd see them in there all the time. The reason thin people are in there is because readers and watchers find them attractive to begin with.

I don't think really that many people view skinny as desirable, more than they are surrounded by overweight people all day, and thinner people just appear marginally more attractive and healthy.

Look at predators and primates in the wild (because humans are predators and primates)... The idea that fat is a sign of prosperity is a little flawed. There are very few "fat" predators. Mates are chosen based on health, and ability to provide. A predator may be larger than others, but generally it is not because they are fat. A larger predator, while not "fatter", has more lean muscle mass, and in most cases is able to defeat smaller foes when completing for food/mates. The Lion with rippling muscle and powerful jaws is going to be a more desirable mate than the fat, slow, and lethargic one.

I am not entirely sure on where I sit on the nature vs nurture chart though. On the one hand, I can see how society can shape our views on what is beautiful. But on the other hand, I seem to be hardwired to like certain things (brunettes I don't look twice at, while even an "ugly" blonde makes me double-take).

[Erloas]

The problem is people endangering their health trying to be thin (those with eating disorders and those who yo-yo diet) and those who suffer self-esteem problems because they aren't thin (or they are thin and don't believe it).

While this is true, I think it is by far a much less common problem then people being overweight/obese and thinking it is perfectly fine.

And sure, weight is not nearly as relevant as health, but it is usually very clear when weight is high because of being in good shape with a lot of muscle and when it is high from being fat.

The thing about people that have body image issues is that they would have those same issues no matter what society deems "perfect." Even if we were in a culture where it was seen as ideal to be overweight those people would still probably feel that they aren't were they need to be. Even if it didn't have anything to do with weight (high or low) but instead had to do with something else they would still have problems.

I think the much more dangerous problem is the changing belief of what a healthy weight actually is. Surveys I've heard about fairly recently said that something like 1/3 people thought of themselves as being in better shape/weight then they really were. Being overweight and thinking they were ok, being obese and thinking they were just a little overweight.
And that wasn't even close to mostly people in very good shape where BMI doesn't work.

[Frozen_Feet]

Look at predators and primates in the wild (because humans are predators and primates)... The idea that fat is a sign of prosperity is a little flawed. There are very few "fat" predators.

That's because predators usually don't have anything excess to eat, and lead a highly intensive lifestyle. Look at any hunting-gathering culture, in fact, almost any preindustrial culture, and most folks tend to be rather lean.

Also, just to point out, there are many predators to which gathering fat is vital - bears and seals come to mind.

Fat was a sign of prospertiy, because food was rare. However, it's again good to remember there's a difference between healthy chub and obesity.

Skin fat protects your internal organs and shields you from frost, fat around tighs actually improves your blood circulation and you run a risk of heart failure if yours are too thin, large breasts (which consist of fat) imply good resources for nursing a child etc.

However, internal fat crushes your organs, replaces healthy cells with non-functional ones etc.

However, people aren't always taught to differentiate properly between healthy and unhealthy fat, and I harbor a guess that you, too, thought primarily of unhealthy fat when making your statement about predators. Chances are you don't know how and where to look for healthy fat.

Also, I think people are missing something of Trog's observation - from the description, it's obvious this thing is a self-feeding cycle. People think thin people are beautiful because that's what ads show them, and ads keep showing them thin people because people think thin people are pretty. There might have been, at one point, a legitimate perception of "slender is better" based on healthiness, but I think the feed-back cycle has already skewed it to an unhealthy and unreasonable extreme.

[WarKitty]

While this is true, I think it is by far a much less common problem then people being overweight/obese and thinking it is perfectly fine.

And sure, weight is not nearly as relevant as health, but it is usually very clear when weight is high because of being in good shape with a lot of muscle and when it is high from being fat.

The thing about people that have body image issues is that they would have those same issues no matter what society deems "perfect." Even if we were in a culture where it was seen as ideal to be overweight those people would still probably feel that they aren't were they need to be. Even if it didn't have anything to do with weight (high or low) but instead had to do with something else they would still have problems.

I think the much more dangerous problem is the changing belief of what a healthy weight actually is. Surveys I've heard about fairly recently said that something like 1/3 people thought of themselves as being in better shape/weight then they really were. Being overweight and thinking they were ok, being obese and thinking they were just a little overweight.
And that wasn't even close to mostly people in very good shape where BMI doesn't work.

It's a lot more complicated than that. The BMI doesn't work even on a lot of people who do have more fat, because different bodies have different set points for what is healthy. Even when diets are faithfully followed most women don't manage to keep weight off, because that's not where their body's set point is. There's even arguments that a lot of the problems currently ascribed to being overweight are actually the symptoms of fluctuating weight due to diets.

As far as body image issues...personally I think the primary problem is a lot of society tells women that their self-worth ought to be based around how attractive they are to men.

[Frozen_Feet]

One of the biggest problems with diets is that human body naturally wants to gather reserves when food is abundant, because, again, food used to be scarce. For the same reason, human body fights with teeth and claws against losing weight, putting itself to "energy saving" mode to fight off starvation. So staying lean while surrounded by food is a biological uphill battle to majority of people.

What comes to society pressuring females to be attracting to males... eh. That is nature - only what's perceived as "attractive" is nurture. The pressure both sexes feel to appease the other one is pretty much instinctious - even acknowledging it and consciously fighting against it won't make it go away. It'll always be there, in some form or another, causing self-worth issues - we can, however, do much to make people better at spotting when desire to please becomes an obsession and is not healthy anymore.

[Om]

If putting fat and ugly people into advertisements worked, you'd see them in there all the time. The reason thin people are in there is because readers and watchers find them attractive to begin withAnd filling TV and films with perfect blonds, or the like, only reinforces these standards of attractiveness. It's not just lazy advertising, although this is where it's the most overt, but a constant theme across the media. Radio excepted obviously. And it has a definite impact on shaping people's perceptions of what they look like and what they should aspire to look like. You cannot underestimate the power of a mass medium like TV in shaping peoples' consciousness


Look at predators and primates in the wild (because humans are predators and primates)... The idea that fat is a sign of prosperity is a little flawed. There are very few "fat" predatorsHumans are not "predators", at least not in the sense that you mean, and they do not exist in "the wild". So I'm going to stop you there

We humans are exceptionally social creatures and our standards of beauty are determined by social norms (which, as I mention above, can be influenced). To take your example, "fat as a sign of prosperity" makes perfect sense in a world where food is scare and most of the population are engaged in manual labour; here gluttony indicates high social status due to ample wealth and leisure time. Conversely, when the socio-economic conditions change and access to food is no longer a major issue, then the bodies of the rich reflect the quality of the food they can afford to eat (ie, no fast food or the like) and the time put into the gym

[Asta Kask]

That's because predators usually don't have anything excess to eat, and lead a highly intensive lifestyle.

You've never had a cat, have you? :smallbiggrin:

[Sipex]

Long post

This fills me with rage.

I must calm myself for a bit.

[Frozen_Feet]

You've never had a cat, have you? :smallbiggrin:

I've had a cat, and I do acknowledge domesticated animals don't follow patterns of their wild cousins - thus the word 'usually'. :smallwink: However, it should be noted that many pet cats are too fat exactly because they're fed too much and allowed to move around too little.

[Crow]

Chances are you don't know how and where to look for healthy fat.

Not sure why you would assume that...

[Frozen_Feet]

Number of reasons - most importantly because many studies about what kind of fat is healthy are relatively recent. It's nothing personal. Feel free to correct me if that's not the case. :smallsmile:

[Don Julio Anejo]

1. Please, I lived in an area with like 10 alley cats. They're just as lazy and fat (if not more lazy and fat) as domesticated cats. And it's not because they were well-fed by passerbys, they were not.

2. In ye olde time, being fat was more aking to having a Mercedes than being beautiful. It wasn't necessarily beautiful, just like it's not now. It's exactly like having a Mercedes - it may help you get laid if you're going up against exactly the same guy with no car or a cheap car, but it won't make you beautiful.

3. Human socialization is in many cases exceedingly simple when you get down to it. For example, while a girl may prefer a guy with feature A because she finds it attractive, if she sees another girl go after guys with feature B, she herself will instead go after B-featured dudes. Species: guppies. Because doing so increases her kids' inclusive fitness by having kids that are attractive to other girls and hence more likely to have kids of their own.

4. If waify blondes weren't attractive to begin with, we wouldn't see them in movies or advertisements.

5. BMI is also messed up because it doesn't take into account bone structure. A short, stocky guy or a member of an ethnic group that's often short and stocky (i.e. Mexican) will have a much higher BMI and look unhealthier on paper when compared to a tall, wiry guy or a member of a tall, wiry ethnic group (the Dutch). Even if the latter guy is by all standards fat. You simply have to make too many exceptions and corrections for it to be a meaningful statistic. Body fat percentage works so much better it's not even funny. Just that it's difficult to measure for the uninitiated.

[Frozen_Feet]

1. Please, I lived in an area with like 10 alley cats. They're just as lazy and fat (if not more lazy and fat) as domesticated cats. And it's not because they were well-fed by passerbys, they were not.


They're well-fed by trash and rodents it attracts. In any case, they get much more "bang for ther buck" than cats living in the wild.

[Trog]

Which ignores the role that media (including advertising) plays in shaping popular perceptions as to just what is beautiful
Hence the "are not fully to blame" part of that quote. Part of the blame falls on them, yes. I never ignored that.

[Asta Kask]

They're well-fed by trash and rodents it attracts. In any case, they get much more "bang for ther buck" than cats living in the wild.

Lions sleep and rest 20 hours a day.

[Coidzor]

Lions sleep and rest 20 hours a day.

You can't really compare feral cats with apex predators though.

[Asta Kask]

No, but since the original statement was that predators "lead a highly intensive lifestyle"...

[Coidzor]

No, but since the original statement was that predators "lead a highly intensive lifestyle"...

Yes and no. You'll find they fit fairly well with the original statement because lions expend enough energy on the hunt that they have to conserve energy for the next time they go out to kill something, except for the males who have to save energy for the next potentially lethal fight for their position in their pride.

So what they do is fairly intense when they're doing it.

[Asta Kask]

This could be construed as off-topic.

Although there is a lioness who posts on this forum. I wonder if she sleeps 20 hours per day.

[ThunderCat]

I will re-emphasize that from the medical perspective, it IS better to be overweight and healthy (regular exercise, and 5-9 fruits and veges a day without a lot of crap) than it is to be skinny and a fast food eating couch potato.

Our culture doesn't necessarily buy that though. I have heard people talk about not wanting to be friends with certain people because they looked 'un-healthy' aka. fat, and if the fattie didn't care enough to 'take care of themselves' why should they (the thinnie) want to be the fattie's friend?

It can get really disgusting how pervasive in society how deeply the negative stereotypes based on weight can go. Overweight people have a harder time getting jobs, doctors are less likely to treat overweight people because they assume they are non-compliant.

I was teased mercilessly in high school about being overweight... when my BMI was 21.7 (right smack dab in the middle of healthy). About this time I started to form the idea that I was a 'fat girl' (and binge eat because of this identification) even though I was a normal weight.

When I lost weight my freshmen year in college, I was told I needed to "lose just a couple more pounds to be really HOT!". At the time I was less than 5 lbs above an Underweight BMI (18.5).I've had some of the same experiences. When we went to school doctor and got measured weighed, most of the other girls always came out proudly saying "he said I could easily stand to gain some weight", while the two of us who'd gotten the less flattering message "you height and weight fit together nicely, so no problem there" were quiet. And the worst part is that all the obsession with skinniness doesn't make us less fat. It's much harder for people who hate themselves to stay healthy, because negative motivation sucks.

I've heard overweight women say that they thought they were fat ten years ago, but now they'd give a lot to go back to looking like that. I've never been obese, and I'm fortunate enough that I can gain quite a lot of weight and still look shapely and healthier than many smaller women, but I still suspect that if it wasn't for my teenage eating disorder, I'd be slimmer today.

Your experiences also matches the studies that have been made in the area, and you're right in our observations about gender. Fat men are much more common in high positions, but a man (even a fat man) can lose status if he's seen with a fat woman. It's especially tragic because fat women are frequently more healthy than fat men, but in return, it's often a harder for women to stay thin. I think it goes back to rarity being prised, and people wanting what's hard to get. I think this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ_pKXoevK4) summons up that attitude quite well.

[Frozen_Feet]

Lions sleep and rest 20 hours a day.

Yes, but those four remaining hours they spend doing highly intense stuff. A feral city cat is likely to find relatively much greater quantities of suitable food with far less effort than a lion - thus, "more bang for their buck".

A feral cat might still sleep 20 hours a day to conserve energy, but the joke is, it doesn't need to, because it's already gaining more energy than it needs to hunt. Because of this, it gets fat, but due to instinct, it keeps eating - and it gets fatter, because trash doesn't run away even if you're obese.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Some people think that some of the stranger behaviour we see in domestic animals is due to their environment and their instincts clashing. Like cats playing with their food, wild animals don't do it but a cat is full, therefore it has little urge to eat. But it can see prey, and thus has the urge to hunt it.

Poor thing, all confused like that.

[Frozen_Feet]

It goes further that. Some people, including me, think some of the stranger behaviour we see in humans is due to our environment and our instincts clashing. Sleep disorders, for example - humans just aren't wired to wake up before sun shines, and we just can't go to sleep when the night sky is illuminated by artificial lights.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Yes, (and this has by the way brought us back round to the idea of women desiring thinness via the related topic of eating disorders, GO TANGENTS!) but at the very least we can understand the world that is messing us up. Animals can't.

[Thes Hunter]

It's a lot more complicated than that. The BMI doesn't work even on a lot of people who do have more fat, because different bodies have different set points for what is healthy. Even when diets are faithfully followed most women don't manage to keep weight off, because that's not where their body's set point is. There's even arguments that a lot of the problems currently ascribed to being overweight are actually the symptoms of fluctuating weight due to diets.

As far as body image issues...personally I think the primary problem is a lot of society tells women that their self-worth ought to be based around how attractive they are to men.

Sorry for my late-ish reply, Pharmacology and Pathology ate my brain.


1) BMI is meant for population studies, but that doesn't keep doctors from using it as the gospel.
2) My entire Medical Nutrition class (on weight issues) distilled into 1 sentence, One is highly unlikely to keep the weight off in the long term, obesity itself may not be the actual risk factor, losing and then re-gaining even as much as 10 pounds can increase the risk obesity alone seems to have, health benefits can come with sub-weight loss life-style changes.

Meaning working out and cutting calories enough to lose weight is way more intense then is needed to gain the health benefits from eating better and exercising. The focus on weight loss alone may be increasing the risk of obesity. People tend to track how well they are doing based on how many pounds they have lost, when they should be tracking how much and how often they worked out, and if they have eaten enough fruits and vegetables.
3) The medical literature is finding a trend in obese individuals at the lower spectrum of obesity to be saying "Well it's not like I have a problem, It's not like I'm 600 lbs"

Being one of those obese individuals and knowing how I have been mistreated by medical staff, I haven't decided how I feel about how to address the problem... but for right now I can say, EVERYONE and it doesn't matter what weight you are, needs to exercise at least 30 mins 3 times a week (Doing anything, walking, jogging, wii fit, DDR, whatever) and eat 5-9 servings of fruits and veges, while trying to limit simple carbs, and focus on whole grains and minimally processed foods.

I think a lot of medical professionals miss the point, and become trained to focus on the number that they push the wrong indicator. Partially because BMI is quick, simple and then they don't actually have to spend the time required talking to the patient.

[Haruki-kun]

The problem with BMI:

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t288/Vaarsuvius89/bmicomparison.jpg


but for right now I can say, EVERYONE and it doesn't matter what weight you are, needs to exercise at least 30 mins 3 times a week (Doing anything, walking, jogging, wii fit, DDR, whatever) and eat 5-9 servings of fruits and veges, while trying to limit simple carbs, and focus on whole grains and minimally processed foods.

...While you're here. I have two questions.

When you say "doing anything" do you mean lifting weights as well? Some people claim it doesn't count because it's not cardio. >.o

And 5-9 servings of fruits and veggies... a day? :smalleek:

[Worlok]

Consider this my shameless butting-in:

And 5-9 servings of fruits and veggies... a day?
Or more, or less, depending on how big they are, I reckon. I'd say: Seek out one kind or more you really like - in my case, those are tangerines and bananas - and whenever you happen to walk past the fruit bowl, grab one and eat up. You get used to it quite quickly.

[pendell]

The problem is I don't think that's technically what they're asking for. It's not just 5-9 servings of fruits and veggies, it's 3-5 of green leafy vegetables, 2-4 of fruits, X legumes in a week ... I don't see how it could be done without a managed diet.

Still, I suppose 9 fruits a day is better than trying to get the exact mix right, failing, and going back to Twinkies in disgust.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Spiryt]

Eh, such amount of vegetables seem quite natural in fact.... :smallconfused:

Apple then, cabbage then, another apple, carrot, then capsicum to the supper.

The problem is that it's hard to live on them alone, so the problem is all stuff that I eat as a 'main thing'. :smalltongue:

[MrTytronico]

Beans?

They always seem like a really filling food, and they are not bad for you at least right?

[Thes Hunter]

Lots of things I can respond to, but a quick and dirty reply to Hari-kun about cardio vs. weight lifting.

Both are needed. Weight lifting strengthens skeletal muscle making them use more energy, and function better in the way they are supposed to (support our weight and etc).

Cardio is like weight lifting for the heart and smooth muscles in our arteries and veins.

Both are necessary, with pure cardio, you may have muscles that are too weak to support you in necessary functions. With pure muscle training, you may look great, but be still on the road to cardiovascular disease with High blood pressure and the ilk.

[drakir_nosslin]

Regarding the original question: I think it's mostly nurtured. Children are much more receptive than what we as adults often believes.

Even though I know that it's a lot worse for women, men get a share of the 'look good, or else...' thing.
Even though I've always been thin, I've never been completely satisfied with my body. In my middle teens I worked out a lot at the gym, not because I liked it, but because I had this ideal image of myself spinning in my head. The training was, in retrospect terrible. All to much focusing on large muscle groups, no cardio and no stretching at all.
Luckily I've outgrown most of it and today I train because it makes me feel good, but often when I look at myself in the mirror I think 'hmm, I could probably work on my arms/shoulders/abs and look a little better. Besides it's good for me!' Then, the next second my brain goes 'NO! You do whatever makes you feel good! *beep* all others, makes sure that YOU like!'

Problem is that many times I don't know if I do stuff because it makes me feel good, or because I think that others will like it.

[Tirian]

The problem is I don't think that's technically what they're asking for. It's not just 5-9 servings of fruits and veggies, it's 3-5 of green leafy vegetables, 2-4 of fruits, X legumes in a week ... I don't see how it could be done without a managed diet.

The goal should be to have a healthy supply of dietary fiber to help regulate your digestive system. When I had a nutritionist, she was far more concerned that I was getting 30g of fiber a day than where it was coming from. Specifically, though, I suspect that getting it all from fruit is likely to supply you with far more simple sugars than an ordinary person should be eating in a day, so there should be at least some appeal to whole grain cereals and vegetables just to keep you from all that sucrose.

Beans are generally a healthy high-fiber protein source, but they're not all created equal. For instance, peanuts are a sort of bean, and a sort that has a very high fat content. More traditional bean-like foods tend to be the sorts of choices that I make a lot, though.

[Thrawn183]

I know I'm joining this conversation late but I couldn't resist. :smallbiggrin:

I took an interesting health class in college, and one of the lectures was devoted to body image. The lecturer put up a slide showing 10 silhouettes of both male and female figures numbered from one to ten, one being emaciated and ten being morbidly obese. Men and women in the class were asked to pick the silhouette they found most attractive. Men picked 3.5 for women and women picked 4.5 for men. The interesting part was when each gender was asked what they thought the other gender found was most attractive. Women thought men were attracted to 2.5 and men thought women were attracted to 5.

I use .5 to indicate where the majority of people came down on either side of the number in mostly even numbers. There were roughly 350 people in this lecture hall, so I consider the numbers to be statistically significant.

There were some other interesting segments of the lecture involving attractiveness. Women in the lecture showed that while they found muscular men more attractive, they assumed men somewhat less muscular would make for better husbands/parents. Something of a "they're not attracted to what they want."

Unfortunately the lecture was marred by the presenter, under 6'0'', claiming to be healthy at 300 pounds. I can remember to this day (almost five years later) a girl close to me in the audience making a sarcastic comment about what a great idea it was to tell people who are anorexic that they should put on weight, because that's what healthy people look like.

Anyways, I think that so many people (at least in the US, where I live) are so over weight that the average person doesn't even know what a healthy person looks like anymore. This saddens me greatly. I've had people tell me I'm anorexic (not in jest) and I'm 5'8'' and 180 pounds.

[Katana_Geldar]

I hate that, I was naturally very thin in my teens and it's about as insulting as being told you are fat (or so I have been told) to be asked if you eat and if you are anorexic.

[onthetown]

I used to want to be thin, but I never did anything about it -- I was just content to live a healthy lifestyle and know that I was healthier than some people who weigh less than me.

Once I hit 18, I swear it was like a switch turned on. I've done nothing to change my lifestyle, but I'm thinning out. I've lost some weight and the fat that I still have has gone to different places, so I look a lot better than I did.

So my advice is to wait for your teen years to be over before you start becoming obsessed about dieting. Puberty and growing does strange things to you -- for the record, I gained all of my weight between 10 and 12 -- and it's possible to change with very little or no effort when you're at the end of that stage.

As for the ingrained obsession, I would say partly nature and partly nurture. The nature part of it is that thinner animals look much less appetizing than fatter animals and are also more likely to be able to escape attack (even though you can be healthy and overweight, that doesn't help if somebody zeroes in on you being the weakest and focuses their attack on you); the nurture part would be the media frenzy that has developed over the years that focuses on outer beauty.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The nature part is inclusive fitness (aka how likely you are to pass on your genes, not to be confused with physical fitness). Muscular males are attractive because muscular = physically powerful, which is a pretty good indicator of being a good provider/defender for pretty much any species that doesn't have 9 to 5 jobs for food and tanks to take out dinosaurs. It's also a good indicator of health (which means good genes). Curvy females (not thin, not fat, curvy! I've mentioned this a few pages back) are attractive because they're seen as most fertile, and also most healthy.

Anorexic thin is unattractive because.. well, let's face it, on males it doesn't make you look very strong and on females you have no curves.

Fatty-fat is unattractive because doesn't make you look healthy and obscures any musculature or curves you may have, although I agree that to some extent it's a social construction that to many says "look at me, I can't take care of myself."

[WarKitty]

The thing that bugs me more is the freedom people feel to be judgmental based on someone's weight. I've dealt with a number of disabled/chronically ill people who were overweight due to the nature of their health problems. I always cringe when I hear people talking about how lazy and disgusting fat people are like they can all just choose to stop being fat. Even if it is just a poor health choice, it's none of your business.

[Cobra_Ikari]

The thing that bugs me more is the freedom people feel to be judgmental based on someone's weight. I've dealt with a number of disabled/chronically ill people who were overweight due to the nature of their health problems. I always cringe when I hear people talking about how lazy and disgusting fat people are like they can all just choose to stop being fat. Even if it is just a poor health choice, it's none of your business.

Yeah, this is always something that's confused me, too.

[THAC0]

Starts early.

We had a luncheon at school today (I'm a teacher) and I heard some of the girls making comments about another girl going up to get another serving. I jumped right in, talking about how much I'd eaten - they told me it was okay because I'd eaten my two plates in front of different groups of people so it didn't look bad.

Wow.

[Haruki-kun]

The thing that bugs me more is the freedom people feel to be judgmental based on someone's weight. I've dealt with a number of disabled/chronically ill people who were overweight due to the nature of their health problems. I always cringe when I hear people talking about how lazy and disgusting fat people are like they can all just choose to stop being fat. Even if it is just a poor health choice, it's none of your business.

It bothers me, too, but only when it's really rude. When it's just friendly, for example, or actually concerned about a friend or relative's health, it's a different issue.

Now...


Starts early.

We had a luncheon at school today (I'm a teacher) and I heard some of the girls making comments about another girl going up to get another serving. I jumped right in, talking about how much I'd eaten - they told me it was okay because I'd eaten my two plates in front of different groups of people so it didn't look bad.

Wow.

....this I can't understand. So it's all about how it "looks"? >.o

[WarKitty]

It bothers me, too, but only when it's really rude. When it's just friendly, for example, or actually concerned about a friend or relative's health, it's a different issue.

My general rule is, if you don't know the person well enough to comfortably discuss medical issues with them, you shouldn't be talking about it. It's just not something strangers or casual acquaintances should comment on. That's more what I have an issue with - hearing people talk about "that fat girl over there" when they don't actually know the person in question well.

[faceroll]

I think most of us can speculate but it's really impossible for us to know.

I would say, at 3, you're old enough to have that impressed on you by others but it's also partially biological (as overweight can signify health issues). What we don't know is would these 3 year olds prefer the super skinny model or the average weight model?

Some like 'em big, round and juicy.... (http://www.tomkinscollection.org/art/5/27542_media_files_media_521_medium.jpg)

It's 100% cultural.

[Cobra_Ikari]

My general rule is, if you don't know the person well enough to comfortably discuss medical issues with them, you shouldn't be talking about it. It's just not something strangers or casual acquaintances should comment on. That's more what I have an issue with - hearing people talk about "that fat girl over there" when they don't actually know the person in question well.

This, but I also wonder WHY it's a socially acceptable thing to talk about. Even if I personally don't find it acceptable...

[faceroll]

This, but I also wonder WHY it's a socially acceptable thing to talk about. Even if I personally don't find it acceptable...

I didn't think it was?

[Coidzor]

Gotta admit, I'm still trying to figure out how to remind my parents in a way that would have any impact that they need to stop eating meat, meat, more meat, and potatoes for every meal since they're both diabetic and fat enough they can't hug properly anymore. :smallannoyed:


....this I can't understand. So it's all about how it "looks"? >.o

Children believe that if a monster can't see them because the covers are over their head, that they're safe.

They're very much centered about looks and perceptions over actual realities, and depending upon their age, there likely hasn't been any actual education to show them the reality of various situations.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Some like 'em big, round and juicy.... (http://www.tomkinscollection.org/art/5/27542_media_files_media_521_medium.jpg)

It's 100% cultural.

Wholeheartedly agree. I'm one of those people.


The thing that bugs me more is the freedom people feel to be judgmental based on someone's weight. I've dealt with a number of disabled/chronically ill people who were overweight due to the nature of their health problems. I always cringe when I hear people talking about how lazy and disgusting fat people are like they can all just choose to stop being fat. Even if it is just a poor health choice, it's none of your business.

I also wholeheartedly agree with this too. Quite simply, there's a lot of fat people out there, and they're all fat for different reasons. For some it's genetic, for some it's because of their health, for some it's a lifestyle choice or even a fetish. Yet they're all put under the blanket idea that they're simply lazy, gluttonous, self-pitying slobs. Why do people feel that they can do this? They're not FAT people, they're fat PEOPLE, ergo they're human beings who should be treated with respect.

[Coidzor]

Yeah, most humans don't treat people with respect, only respecting some symbol or expression of power.

[Killer Angel]

Children believe that if a monster can't see them because the covers are over their head, that they're safe.



...but that's precisely the reason every good hitchhiker should always have a towel with him!

[snoopy13a]

This, but I also wonder WHY it's a socially acceptable thing to talk about. Even if I personally don't find it acceptable...

It isn't. It's rude; unfortunately, many people are rude.

[Don Julio Anejo]

My general rule is, if you don't know the person well enough to comfortably discuss medical issues with them, you shouldn't be talking about it. It's just not something strangers or casual acquaintances should comment on. That's more what I have an issue with - hearing people talk about "that fat girl over there" when they don't actually know the person in question well.
Of course, it can just be, you know, simple identification. Saying "that fat girl over there" is both quicker and simpler than saying "that girl over there in a blue sweater and a shopping bag." It's also more confusing if the girl is, in fact, fat, since if you used the second description, people would assume she looks normal. It's rude, yes, but tiptoeing around the problem isn't the solution, it simply makes prejudice even more difficult to talk about.

PS: please, oh please, don't bring in Venus figurines into this discussion, they are fertility/earth/mother goddesses (think Earth Mother archetype or something), not ideals of beauty like actual Venus. And the latter looks 50's waify on Greek or Roman statues rather than big and plump like models for renaissance paintings.

[WarKitty]

Of course, it can just be, you know, simple identification. Saying "that fat girl over there" is both quicker and simpler than saying "that girl over there in a blue sweater and a shopping bag." It's also more confusing if the girl is, in fact, fat, since if you used the second description, people would assume she looks normal. It's rude, yes, but tiptoeing around the problem isn't the solution, it simply makes prejudice even more difficult to talk about.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but re-read my quote in context of my previous post that started this bit of discussion. I was referring specifically to people being critical, not simply using fat as a descriptor.

[leakingpen]

Coming late to the party but, I never liked skinny girls that way. Society told me what women were "hot" but I never agreed with society.

And according to my wife, her indoctrination to try to be thin, by society, she can remember in 2 grade, being told that she needed to be thinner to be popular with people and successful in life.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Had to re-search for this thread just so I could post this. Yeah, I know this video is old, but I'd never seen it before. Just happened to be watching a Letterman skit and noticed it to the side.

It's Kirstie Alley coming out in a bikini:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMfr_QO7Sw


I'm trying to figure out what the reaction about this is so negative. I don't know if she ever was actually 600 lbs like they are joking about, but this woman that comes out does not appear to have rolls, flab, or a single thing hanging off her. I'd never have considered her 'heavy'. There are curves but no excess anywhere (except where there's supposed to :smallwink:).

I'd like any dude to truthfully tell me they'd not give her a glance:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/02/article-1023635-059D2AAC0000044D-928_224x542.jpg

What is it that is making folks practically boo her? The video makes everything appear a little squashed, but even so what is supposed to be unattractive about her body-wise? Do we have to see BONES before she's 'fit'? I mean what the heck? :smallmad:

Edit: And she was over 50 at the time I also read. Yeah, you WISH most 50 year olds looked like that.

[Haruki-kun]

Had to re-search for this thread just so I could post this. Yeah, I know this video is old, but I'd never seen it before. Just happened to be watching a Letterman skit and noticed it to the side.

It's Kirstie Alley coming out in a bikini:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbMfr_QO7Sw


I'm trying to figure out what the reaction about this is so negative. I don't know if she ever was actually 600 lbs like they are joking about, but this woman that comes out does not appear to have rolls, flab, or a single thing hanging off her. There are curves but no excess anywhere (except where there's supposed to :smallwink:).

I'd like any dude to truthfully tell me they'd not give her a glance:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/02/article-1023635-059D2AAC0000044D-928_224x542.jpg

What is it that is making folks practically boo her? The video makes everything appear a little squashed, but even so what is supposed to be unattractive about her body-wise? Do we have to see BONES before she's 'fit'? I mean what the heck? :smallmad:

Edit: And she was over 50 at the time I also read. Yeah, you WISH most 50 year olds looked like that.

I'm... quite confused about this, too. Where'd that booing come from? :smallconfused:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I'm... quite confused about this, too. Where'd that booing come from? :smallconfused:
Apparently she's gotten a lot of flack about it.

I repeat: WTH?

[leakingpen]

If you'll excuse me, I'll be in my bunk.

[Coidzor]

Ah. And here I was thinking it was a video edit on Letterman's show's part.

...um, I dunno, but if one is 50 and not completely scary, that's a good thing. So I fail to see what's bad about actually having some level of attractiveness.

Maybe dismay at the comparisons people would make if more and more 50 year olds retained some level of attractiveness due to the bar being set higher? :smallconfused:

Name rings a bell though. Not sure why.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Maybe dismay at the comparisons people would make if more and more 50 year olds retained some level of attractiveness due to the bar being set higher? :smallconfused:
Thinking it's more a case of an all-b**ch audience.

It was just mean-spirited and uncalled for.

[Comet]

I'm pretty sure it was a video editing trick to drive the punchline home. I mean, the reaction of shock and horror was a bit too sudden and over the top to be genuine television, wasn't it?

And the punchline itself makes it pretty clear, to me, that the woman is indeed pretty enough for most standards.

That's not to say that there aren't people out there who would bash on her to hide their own insecurities. Some people just grow up wrong, as sad as it is.

[Haruki-kun]

That's not to say that there aren't people out there who would bash on her to hide their own insecurities. Some people just grow up wrong, as sad as it is.

People, sadly, do that a lot. And that's not limited to the physical aspect. Combination of jealousy and insecurity can do that, too.

[Eldonauran]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/06/02/article-1023635-059D2AAC0000044D-928_224x542.jpg

o.0 *studies picture* 0.0 !!!!

She's 50?!? Wow. The hell is wrong with those people? Age difference aside (I'm 25) I find nothing at all unattractive about that lady. In fact, she looks a lot more attractive to me than most the models they try to force down my throat

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I'm pretty sure it was a video editing trick to drive the punchline home. I mean, the reaction of shock and horror was a bit too sudden and over the top to be genuine television, wasn't it?
I dunno, she was also on Larry King about her walk-on, and he's like, 'Why would you do this?!'

And she goes, "Wha? You look like you're going to throw up."


In fact, she looks a lot more attractive to me than most the models they try to force down my throat
Amen to that.

[cho_j]

So, I'm 7 pages late to the party, but I'm still gonna come in and say: pretty dang much nurture. As many before me have pointed out, it's what people are telling you (or in the case of the 3 year olds, what you hear people being told) that affects how you feel about your weight. I can even use myself as a nice little example, aware though I am of the anecdotal fallacy of using myself as my only direct example.

As a child, I was unhappy about a lot of things, because I was being myself, hard, at the top of my lungs. And in my experience, there's pretty much nothing kids in elementary school like better than tearing down people who are themselves. But I wasn't concerned at all about my weight. I think I was lucky enough to grow up in the last few years where super-super skinny wasn't yet considered the most beautiful option (or indeed, by many people, the only beautiful option). As such, I knew my mom told me to eat more veggies and less cookies, but that was always an actual health issue: she would tell me that eating healthy would help me play softball better, and not get sick so often, and so on. It had absolutely nothing to do with my weight, and though I was somewhat chubby, I had no issue with my weight whatsoever.

Then middle school started. I started to realize that I couldn't fit into a lot of the clothes they made for someone my age. Everything was being cut skinnier and skinnier, and that wasn't me. I still ate a few too many sweets (hell, I still do that, though I'm a bit more active now). And when I started to develop as a woman, I seriously developed. And there were some things for me to wear, but I started to hate shopping with a burning passion, because I did NOT fit the cute things that popular girls wore, and I knew that. It didn't bother me so much that I couldn't look like a certain clique (I was even less interested in that than I had been in elementary school) but it DID bother me that I didn't seem to fit in any shop.

By high school (the last four years), skinny-mania was everywhere. And I started to hate, a lot, that I was still carrying some weight around my middle and thighs. I still carry that weight, but in high school, I felt attacked by it. The shopping anxiety got worse. I started wearing mostly guy shirts, because the vast majority of girl shirts looked terrible— even shirts from web comics warned that they had "form-fitting" women's shirt. I started to dread the words "form-fitting," because they were never ever talking about my form. And I had skinny friends. I also had friends who were in my weight class or above, but I had skinny friends. And I didn't want to, but I resented them, heavily.

Compounding the issue, my mom started asking me about my weight. When I ate junk food, she no longer talked about my health. Instead, she would mention how unhappy I was when I shopped, and that I wasn't too overweight, but I was a little. It took me three years of listening to that, not just from my mom but from more or less every magazine, TV show, etc. in the country to get mad, mad, mad and use that to get back to thinking about my HEALTH and not my weight. And you know what? I still cry about half the time when I go into a dressing room with a lot of cute clothes that I know I'll see skinnier girls wearing within a couple weeks, and I don't fit into a single article of clothing. Now, I have found things that fit me like a glove, but I never find them at major clothing stores (which are the easiest places to shop when you need formal wear, for instance). And it is a MAJOR blow to the self esteem when you're trying on shirt after shirt and you realize that someone who makes clothes you like never intended you to wear them. Heck, to them? You don't exist. You aren't skinny, skinny, skinny like the models they originally made the clothes for, and you aren't doing your part to be part of society and get skinny, skinny, skinny, so these clothes aren't for you. I may be personalizing too much, but that seriously stings.

And there was absolutely nothing in me telling me that I should be a stick. I have some serious curves, and since the media loves paying attention to how much guys like curves, I have never been insecure about that. I am not bothered by my weight at all unless I'm looking at clothes (even ones I already own, that I bought despite their being a little tight). And let me repeat: I am in no way obese. I'm at most ten pounds above the HEALTHY standard for my height, and I have been, consistently for my whole life. It's the only thing I've ever heard my doctor say.

[pendell]

Thank you, cho.

Incidentally, I looked at the Kirstie Alley photograph and found her quite attractive. Those people who booed her can only wish their spouses would look half as good at age 50.

I hate what society does to women. I have a friend who's constantly calling herself tubby and hating herself because she's overweight. Well, it can be a health problem if you're obese ... but that doesn't justify constant self-loathing. It's not like she's a Nazi or something.

How times change -- here is the 1910 US Army Field Manual for Cooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=952-1LPiVn8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=1910+manual+for+army+cooks&source=bl&ots=3dyN6EGD0q&sig=6eNHlzPvoc1G8fd2vVFkClxJ_VE&hl=en&ei=gcD6TOTACoWssAPf_aH3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false).

Note that the average soldier was considered to need AT LEAST 3500 calories of food a day to be healthy. Considering this meant a life style of 20 mile hikes et al, it's understandable.

If I ate 3500 calories a day, I'd turn into Jabba and eat myself to death.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[WarKitty]

All I can say is, I still remember being told by a number of people that I shouldn't take up weightlifting or any other high intensity sport. It might make me gain muscles, see, and muscles aren't attractive on women.

:smallfurious:

Pretty much throws any theory about this stuff being about health out the window.

[Eldonauran]

**snip**

Awesome story. I wish I knew you in high school, that way we could both snub our noses at the 'cute and skinny' people. I knew tons of them and almost, if not all of them, were shallow, two faced and two dimensional. There is never any reason (save for society getting under your skin and making you think so) that you need to be envious or ashamed at not being 'part of the norm'. I was overweight in highschool and not even the PE (physical eductaion/health) teacher could make me feel bad about myself, even when they pulled out the BMI 'tool' to measure body fat. I always performed 'above average' in class and any physical test them could give me (ie, A and B student, in everything).

Its not about body shape but being healthy (do NOT read: in shape). Being 'in shape' is all a matter of what you are in shape for activities, physically challenging jobs, etc.

[WarKitty]

I suppose now would not be the time to mention the number of people I've had assume "skinny girl with boobs"="completely shallow airhead"?

[Eldonauran]

I suppose now would not be the time to mention the number of people I've had assume "skinny girl with boobs"="completely shallow airhead"?

I'm not sure. For me at least, 'skinny girl with boobs' will have to do something that completes the equation before I determine 'completely shallow airhead'.

One of my best friends in high school was a 'skinny girl with boobs' but was way more intelligent than myself. I told her she needed to wear her glasses more often. They were sexy :smallamused:

[Coidzor]

I suppose now would not be the time to mention the number of people I've had assume "skinny girl with boobs"="completely shallow airhead"?

Well, the female motivation for perpetuating and spreading the stereotype is obvious. What's less obvious is when males buy into it and discriminate against women as if having breasts larger than a B somehow caused a decrease in IQ proportional to cupsize.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I wish I knew you in high school, that way we could both snub our noses at the 'cute and skinny' people. I knew tons of them and almost, if not all of them, were shallow, two faced and two dimensional.
Ok, now I think we're going too far the other way.

Frankly I'd say 99% of people are that way. Not because of shape, but because if they have some sort of positive thing to them, whether it be body shape, brains or whatnot, they flaunt it.

I'd go into a public school rant in general, but don't want to go off tangent... not to mention forum rules.

Let's just say I have five sisters. Three of them would match the 'cute and skinny' criteria. In fact, all of them have been offered modeling positions. They turned it and down. None of them are shallow and two-faced. They are actually broadly liked by the popular and unpopular. I have one sister who is large... as in nearly 6 foot and about 200 lbs. She's just as popular, if not more so, than my other sisters. She's just got a very... effusive personality.

It's about personality as much as looks. If someone is on the sidelines making fun of the 'pretty people' and being bitter, then they're not going to be very well liked, and are no better than the 'pretty people' mocking folks.

[WarKitty]

Well, the female motivation for perpetuating and spreading the stereotype is obvious. What's less obvious is when males buy into it and discriminate against women as if having breasts larger than a B somehow caused a decrease in IQ proportional to cupsize.

Might also have to do with that, in certain young adult circles, smart is not cool. I have known a number of perfectly bright young women who start acting the airhead role after being bullied for "acting too smart."

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Might also have to do with that, in certain young adult circles, smart is not cool. I have known a number of perfectly bright young women who start acting the airhead role after being bullied for "acting too smart."
Well, it also depends on how they express their intelligence. I have twin brothers. They are considered geniuses if test scores are any indication... but they flaunt what they know like another girl might her chest. None of my family is dim, and most at least their level, and we STILL have to tell them to get up off themselves.

I.e. if you are showing off and flaunting your intelligence then you really aren't that bright.

In D&D terms they have high Int, with Wis as their dump stat.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Might also have to do with that, in certain young adult circles, smart is not cool. I have known a number of perfectly bright young women who start acting the airhead role after being bullied for "acting too smart."

It's not just females you know.

[Dvandemon]

Granted, I'm not a women, but...

I'd say that nurture is far more important- there are a fair number of cultures in which being fatter is being prettier.

Generally in such cultures, being fat was a sign of wealth, where dangers such as famine are common. In cultures such as America, being fat sign of being a pig

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Generally in such cultures, being fat was a sign of wealth, where dangers such as famine are common. In cultures such as America, being fat sign of being a pig
Or also a sign of lack of wealth. Since over here fattening food is often the cheapest food.

Interesting how things reverse themselves.

[WarKitty]

Well, it also depends on how they express their intelligence. I have twin brothers. They are considered geniuses if test scores are any indication... but they flaunt what they know like another girl might her chest. None of my family is dim, and most at least their level, and we STILL have to tell them to get up off themselves.

I.e. if you are showing off and flaunting your intelligence then you really aren't that bright.

In D&D terms they have high Int, with Wis as their dump stat.

A lot of places I've seen merely showing an interest in academics is considered "acting smart." Or people assume you do things in order to show off how smart you are rather than just because you like them. Like I'd get a lot of harassment for choosing a history or science book for leisure reading over current fiction. Or asking the teacher questions after class. It just wasn't cool to show interest in learning.


It's not just females you know.

True. Guys are supposed to be muscular and play sports. I'm just more familiar with how it plays out for girls.

[Don Julio Anejo]

I'm pretty sure they didn't boo Kristie Alley. To me it sounded like a long "woooahhhh" sound. Like they were super impressed (and they probably were). But heck, there's a cougar if I ever saw one. And I wouldn't have guessed her at over 35.

Eh, I have DEX and CON as my dump stats :smallannoyed:

But... something I noticed, no-one considers intelligence bad. It's cool to be smart. What in many circles is not liked is arrogance. The difference is that in different circles people see different things as arrogant.

In university science classes, unless you're actively telling people they're dumb compared to you, no-one is going to care that you read peer-reviewed articles for fun. But at the same time, if you're reading Guns Germs and Steel or A Brief History of Time while on break at a construction site, people are probably going to think you're doing it to snub. Like, "look at me, I'm so much more sophisticated."

High schools notwithstanding. But even there, if you get straight As, you're fine as long as you have social skills to match. It's just that there's often a correlation between getting straight As and NOT having social skills.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

A lot of places I've seen merely showing an interest in academics is considered "acting smart." Or people assume you do things in order to show off how smart you are rather than just because you like them. Like I'd get a lot of harassment for choosing a history or science book for leisure reading over current fiction. Or asking the teacher questions after class. It just wasn't cool to show interest in learning.
Now that is unfortunate, and I have heard a lot about that that sort of thing. Possibly part of the reason the good ole U.S. is falling behind academically compared to many other prosperous nations. And yet homeschooling is strongly discouraged. Grr.


Btw, may I introduce my non-airheaded sisters (well, generally not anyways :smallamused:)

Eldest
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs107.snc1/5066_96800074780_672969780_1846059_3975995_n.jpg

2nd
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v142/227/82/579791821/n579791821_389734_8339.jpg

3rd
http://oi54.tinypic.com/vhyyxv.jpg


And the rest are too young for the internet I've been informed by my mother :smallwink:

[WarKitty]

But... something I noticed, no-one considers intelligence bad. It's cool to be smart. What in many circles is not liked is arrogance. The difference is that in different circles people see different things as arrogant.

In university science classes, unless you're actively telling people they're dumb compared to you, no-one is going to care that you read peer-reviewed articles for fun. But at the same time, if you're reading Guns Germs and Steel or A Brief History of Time while on break at a construction site, people are probably going to think you're doing it to snub. Like, "look at me, I'm so much more sophisticated."

High schools notwithstanding. But even there, if you get straight As, you're fine as long as you have social skills to match. It's just that there's often a correlation between getting straight As and NOT having social skills.

Ummmm...where I was, getting straight A's definitely qualified you as arrogant. Even if you only told people what your grades were in response to a direct question. I've heard the same thing from a lot of young adults.

[Coidzor]

It's not just females you know.

Hell, it's not just females. Though males receive a different stigma for having breasts over cup size B.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hell, it's not just females. Though males receive a different stigma for having breasts over cup size B.
Buwhahaha :smallbiggrin:

[Eldonauran]

It's about personality as much as looks. If someone is on the sidelines making fun of the 'pretty people' and being bitter, then they're not going to be very well liked, and are no better than the 'pretty people' mocking folks.

'Pretty people'? I'd hate to make fun of myself. :smallwink: [/joke]

I wasn't talking about being bitter or 'making fun' of anyone. 'Snub our nose' was just a way of saying ... hmm, turn our noses away (think bad smell) and ignore the ones making fun of us for having different body types. I could have used a different method of saying that. Oh well. I found out the best way of getting under someone's skin (especially someone who feeds off the attention of others) is to act as if they didn't exist or they did not matter. Works great if you are in a group of like-minded people who choose to ignore them as well.

*chuckles* Highschool was fun after I figured that out. :smallamused:


Hell, it's not just females. Though males receive a different stigma for having breasts over cup size B.

*shakes his head sadly* :smallsigh: Thats... thats so not funny and true at the same time.

[Eon]

Hell, it's not just females. Though males receive a different stigma for having breasts over cup size B.

*snicker snicker*

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Thats... thats so not funny
I challenge that assessment :smallamused:

[firemagehao]

Back to the topic of the tread, I would have to say nurture.
I would like to reference all the way back to hunter-gatherer times, when being "fat" was a mark of high status, as it meant you, or someone in your family had exceptional skill at hunting.

[Haruki-kun]

True. Guys are supposed to be muscular and play sports. I'm just more familiar with how it plays out for girls.

A conference on the whole "cliques" and "popularity" thing at school by a guy with a Ph. D. (Which I generally take to mean "knows what he's talking about") adressed the subject. He said in males, the first thing that decides popularity is ability in sports. The second one is height/size.

There's a huge gap between the two, though. I'm pretty tall but as a kid I was terrible at sports, so I fell into the "unpopular" area.

People don't really expect men to be muscular, but there's no doubt that when they are, they stand out.

Personally, the whole experience as a kid and teenager affected me a lot and made me look into getting bigger when I reached college level. I just didn't like the treatment I got as a kid and teenager because I wasn't able to overpower any of the other males (and some of the females).

[Don Julio Anejo]

A conference on the whole "cliques" and "popularity" thing at school by a guy with a Ph. D. (Which I generally take to mean "knows what he's talking about") adressed the subject. He said in males, the first thing that decides popularity is ability in sports. The second one is height/size.
He missed out on a sense of humour, which usually falls somewhere inbetween the two in all the papers I've read on the topic.

I wasn't able to overpower any of the other males (and some of the females).
Is there something you do in your spare time you're not telling us? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

He missed out on a sense of humour, which usually falls somewhere inbetween the two in all the papers I've read on the topic.

Is there something you do in your spare time you're not telling us? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:


Maybe he likes to wrestle girls :smallbiggrin:

The Vorpal Tribble: your second picture is a very cute woman (the blond). She single? :smallwink:
On topic:
I perfer a girl not too be too weighty but she still needs some curves so not a stick figure model.

[Eldonauran]

I challenge that assessment :smallamused:

:smallsigh: I have seen ... not a few larger-than-average guys completely flip out when it comes to that particular area. Hmm, let me rephrase that, I have seen a LOT of overweight men and a few heavily-muscled men flip out about the 'man-boobs or moobs' comments.

As far as I can tell, it is a very touchy subject. :smalleek:

And I can attest from experience. They may not show it but they DO get the urge to physically lash out when ridiculed about that subject.

[cho_j]

As sort of a general response to the first few posts responding to my earlier post (say that ten times fast):

So, I think when I said that I resented friends who were naturally skinny, I may have confused a couple people. What I meant was that I resented their natural shape. Funnily enough, one of those same friends resented the fact that my breasts filled out shirts and dresses that hers couldn't. There was no ill will or bullying between us, we just wished we had what the other did. In fact, it never was the skinny, pretty girls who bullied me about weight (I was never bullied for it by peers at all!). Some of them DID bully me about personality— I will agree whole heartedly with the people talking about how no one is supposed to be smart or get straight A's cuz then you're uncool and arrogant.

Also, on the boy/girl bullying for being smart thing: I agree that guys in high school get just as much bias against being smart, on a day to day basis. I will, however, say that girls get hammered over specific subjects more often. A girl who's good at Literature and a boy who's good at Literature, both of whom are getting straight A's on tests and actually read the assignments, might get just as much flak. Now put them in an upper level math class: the girl gets it about eighty times worse. According to friends on the team, my high school was the ONLY ONE in our region with girls on the Mathletes. That's depressing as hell.

Back on topic! I'm curious. When guys get body shape pressure, do clothes reflect it? I know that lots of female clothing is fitted; do men have fitted clothing as well? Are there styles you can't wear if you don't fit The Standard?

[Eldonauran]

Back on topic! I'm curious. When guys get body shape pressure, do clothes reflect it? I know that lots of female clothing is fitted; do men have fitted clothing as well? Are there styles you can't wear if you don't fit The Standard?

'The Standard' is a very, very complicated answer for men in certain areas. It can range to as bad as what the females get to 'I dunna care what that there magazeen sayz, I shop at Walmart!' (If you are wondering, I fit in that last category with less of an accent)

[WarKitty]

'The Standard' is a very, very complicated answer for men in certain areas. It can range to as bad as what the females get to 'I dunna care what that there magazeen sayz, I shop at Walmart!' (If you are wondering, I fit in that last category with less of an accent)

Actually, from what I've heard from my male friends, it's as much a stigma that men aren't supposed to care about how they look. I have several male friends who enjoy shopping, putting together nice outfits, etc. The usual terms seem to be ruder synonyms for homosexual. Wanting to look nice = unmanly. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Actually, from what I've heard from my male friends, it's as much a stigma that men aren't supposed to care about how they look. I have several male friends who enjoy shopping, putting together nice outfits, etc. The usual terms seem to be ruder synonyms for homosexual. Wanting to look nice = unmanly. :smallsigh:

It's more about letting on that one puts special effort into it. Or actively discuss it willingly rather than keeping it as trade secrets for the furthering of one's goals to get laid and occasionally help out friends who are in sore need of advice, but mostly for the furtherment of the Good Ship, the HMS Getting Laid.

Most people, after all, will gussy up for a date or when they expect to encounter someone with whom they desire sexual congress but as yet don't have a guarantee of a stable arrangement for obtaining it.

So one is supposed to not care but rather pull it off effortlessly and never let slip any of one's personally accumulated knowledge or experience to others.

[WarKitty]

It's more about letting on that one puts special effort into it. Or actively discuss it willingly rather than keeping it as trade secrets for the furthering of one's goals to get laid and occasionally help out friends who are in sore need of advice, but mostly for the furtherment of the Good Ship, the HMS Getting Laid.

Most people, after all, will gussy up for a date or when they expect to encounter someone with whom they desire sexual congress but as yet don't have a guarantee of a stable arrangement for obtaining it.

So one is supposed to not care but rather pull it off effortlessly and never let slip any of one's personally accumulated knowledge or experience to others.

What about doing it for purposes that do not involve sexual or romantic encounters of any sort? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

What about doing it for purposes that do not involve sexual or romantic encounters of any sort? :smalltongue:

What, like having to meet minimum standards of physical attractiveness for work? :smallconfused: Because that's an entirely different ballgame that's not really for discussion with one's peers as far as I ever knew.

...and still has some element of the aforementioned items in it. Hm.. Something where one is dressed around others that has nothing at all to do with sex or romance.

...I didn't think monks really put that much effort into physical appearance.

[WarKitty]

What, like having to meet minimum standards of physical attractiveness for work? :smallconfused:

You don't do it just because ever? It's fun. Sorta like making art fun, except you get to wear it around.

[Coidzor]

You don't do it just because ever? It's fun. Sorta like making art fun, except you get to wear it around.

Ah, that would fall under the header of showboating. AKA, "arrogance," in much the same vein as getting a 4.0 would be termed arrogance by such vapid wastes of such an individuals' time as was went into a bit ago in regards to intelligence.

And still affect one's sexual and romantic chances.

It's a fine line of balance to walk on to avoid resentment for having superior endowments, considering people have widely varying tolerances for others appearing better than them at something.

[WarKitty]

Ah, that would fall under the header of showboating. AKA, "arrogance," in much the same vein as getting a 4.0 would be termed arrogance by such vapid wastes of such an individuals' time.

And still affect one's sexual and romantic chances.

It may have an effect, but it's not the primary reason why it is being done. The whole thing just strikes me as silly - I have a couple of guy friends who show interest in clothing and makeup and get insulted for it. I don't show interest in clothing and makeup and get insulted for it. Whereas if we swapped the interest levels around everyone would consider it perfectly normal.

Edit: It's not just about what does/doesn't look good. For those I know that are really interested, it's not just or even primarily about "does this look good on me." It's about "does this look interesting or fun." Like, the one guy likes nail polish colors because hey, shiny is cool, how come I don't get shiny just because I'm male?

[Haruki-kun]

Is there something you do in your spare time you're not telling us? :smallconfused: :smalltongue:

>.< Well, Arm-wrestling a female friend of mine, I was unable to beat her. Not anymore, though. I saw her again a few months ago and she re-challenged me. I won with no trouble. :smallwink:

[SickleYield]

Glad to hear it. :D

I was a little uncertain about posting in this thread, because most of what I hear so far is "I feel uncomfortable about my weight/used to feel this way, but I'm actually quite slim and/or athletic, as these measurements and weight prove."

I'm not in that category. I've been thick my whole life and I'm thick now. I have good blood pressure and triglycerides, I exercise almost every day, but I am built like an amazon who has been stepped upon. I can't even picture myself as thin. And you know what? I'm okay with that. I have friends that are very slim naturally, and wish they had bigger breasts. I have friends that are my size and larger, and wish they were thinner.

I think the important thing is to be healthy and to be who you are.

[cho_j]

Glad to hear it. :D

I was a little uncertain about posting in this thread, because most of what I hear so far is "I feel uncomfortable about my weight/used to feel this way, but I'm actually quite slim and/or athletic, as these measurements and weight prove."

I'm not in that category. I've been thick my whole life and I'm thick now. I have good blood pressure and triglycerides, I exercise almost every day, but I am built like an amazon who has been stepped upon. I can't even picture myself as thin. And you know what? I'm okay with that. I have friends that are very slim naturally, and wish they had bigger breasts. I have friends that are my size and larger, and wish they were thinner.

I think the important thing is to be healthy and to be who you are.

Good for you, Sickle! I don't think there's a single person on this thread who doesn't agree with that last sentence. :smallsmile: Sadly, though, a lot of us aren't or previously haven't been as strong as you.

[SickleYield]

Not at all. I apologize for soapboxing. In an ideal world I'd like for everyone to be happy with themselves if they're healthy and their body is in its most natural form, but I know that's not the real world.

[blackfox]

Back on topic! I'm curious. When guys get body shape pressure, do clothes reflect it? I know that lots of female clothing is fitted; do men have fitted clothing as well? Are there styles you can't wear if you don't fit The Standard?Yes. There's certain proportions of height/width/whatever that don't work if you're tall and skinny or short and built, as a couple of examples. My dad's 5'2" and muscular and has a hell of a time finding stuff to actually fit him. Works that way for women's clothes, too. I can't get anything that fits my chest to fit my shoulders and vice versa, because I am become unto a She-Hulk.

[Eldonauran]

It may have an effect, but it's not the primary reason why it is being done. The whole thing just strikes me as silly - I have a couple of guy friends who show interest in clothing and makeup and get insulted for it. I don't show interest in clothing and makeup and get insulted for it. Whereas if we swapped the interest levels around everyone would consider it perfectly normal.

Edit: It's not just about what does/doesn't look good. For those I know that are really interested, it's not just or even primarily about "does this look good on me." It's about "does this look interesting or fun." Like, the one guy likes nail polish colors because hey, shiny is cool, how come I don't get shiny just because I'm male?

:smallconfused: :smalleek: :smallsmile: :smallamused:

Truthfully, that would be my reaction, in the exact order if I saw makeup or nail polish on a guy. My best friend in high school was into nail polish and such. He was ... unique and a great friend.

[KingOfLaughter]

SO my weirdness here. I think skinny looks bad, I prefer that straight look where you don't curve in or out at the sides, I also like short girls not tall girls. So yea, that whole OMG BE SKINNY thing, doesn't work for me...

[Dvandemon]

Back to the topic of the tread, I would have to say nurture.
I would like to reference all the way back to hunter-gatherer times, when being "fat" was a mark of high status, as it meant you, or someone in your family had exceptional skill at hunting.

Too bad advances in agriculture pretty much shot that meme to hell. In Africa at least, it's still quite attractive. Another point for attractiveness, being fat was considered to be a sign of fertility; with child-bearing hips and bosoms that seem big enough to feed your grandchildren.

[Don Julio Anejo]

"The only difference between a white girl and a black girl is that when a black girl asks you if this dress makes her ass look big, you say "Hell, Yes!"
- Turk from Scrubs.

[Ravens_cry]

Like what you like I say.
If you like thin woman, you like thin woman. If you like Rubensesque types, hey that's great. If you like some one in-between, go get 'em tiger. If you like yiffing with the furries, if your tastes run to the other team in whatever shape or size, if you play on both teams, whatever, just as long as it is consensual, not dangerous, and fun for all parties involved, there is no bad.

[Coidzor]

"The only difference between a white girl and a black girl is that when a black girl asks you if this dress makes her ass look big, you say "Hell, Yes!"
- Turk from Scrubs.

Yeah, I never really understood that. :smallconfused: Why would so many people want to ignore half of the big two and live in a world where they didn't exist?

[Asta Kask]

"The only difference between a white girl and a black girl is that when a black girl asks you if this dress makes her ass look big, you say "Hell, Yes!"
- Turk from Scrubs.

Obligatory Queen link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnjF1O4eH0)

[Inhuman Bot]

Like what you like I say.
If you like thin woman, you like thin woman. If you like Rubensesque types, hey that's great. If you like some one in-between, go get 'em tiger. If you like yiffing with the furries, if your tastes run to the other team in whatever shape or size, if you play on both teams, whatever, just as long as it is consensual, not dangerous, and fun for all parties involved, there is no bad.

But one of these things in particular is just plain wrong. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

But one of these things in particular is just plain wrong. :smalltongue:
What, in your opinion, is that?

[Coidzor]

What, in your opinion, is that?

The dangeresque bit?

[Inhuman Bot]

What, in your opinion, is that?

I had thought of a lengthy and legitimately intellectual way to phrase my thoughts before I realized a debate about preferences of that sort on a family friendly forum was an failing effort.

[Ravens_cry]

I had thought of a lengthy and legitimately intellectual way to phrase my thoughts before I realized a debate about preferences of that sort of a family friendly forum was an failing effort.
OK then.:smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Obligatory Queen link. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnjF1O4eH0)

Ah, yes. The unofficial chubby chaser anthem. I don't know whether to be proud or ashamed. :smallconfused:

[Sipex]

?

Why? You like queen but are ashamed of that song or you like larger women and are ashamed of that song?

Or you like that song and are ashamed of larger women?

[Keld Denar]

D) All of the above

:smallcool: