"May I come in?" Vampires and invitations.

[Abies]

Sorry if this isn't necessaritly the most correct place to ask a question of this nature, but it seemed the best suited of the options presented.

Setup: I've just bought my first home. Among the first things I put down was a "Welcome" mat outside my front door. My question to the playground is this: Does this count as an invitation that would allow a vampire to enter undeterd?

Somehow the "enter only with an invitation" restriction is able to differentiate between homes and places of business (in those continuities where such a restriction exists). So obviously there exists the ability to detect tacit "invitations to all". Would a welcome mat constitute such an invitation?


Sadly I do feel it necessary to mention that, yes, i understand vampires are not real. This question and potential resultant conversation are intended for entertainment purposes only.

[Comet]

The welcome mat is intended for those you are expecting to enter the house. If a homeless bloke wandered into your kitchen you'd probably call the police instead of going "Huh, you must've seen the doormat. Welcome to my mansion!"

The mat is a specific symbol for a very specific invitation. Unless you are throwing a massive party for the whole neighbourhood, which is cool too. Watch out for vampires on the living room dance floor!

[Tazar]

Trying to recall if any of the houses in Buffy that vampires visit had a welcome mat.

I'd imagine it wouldn't constitute an invitation, but there's definitely a possibility. As far as I know the verbal invitation is generally a requirement, however.

[Haruki-kun]

I take the Artemis Fowl approach to this. I think accidental invitations, such as a welcome mat, are valid as well.

[Mewtarthio]

Somehow the "enter only with an invitation" restriction is able to differentiate between homes and places of business (in those continuities where such a restriction exists). So obviously there exists the ability to detect tacit "invitations to all".

Not necessarily. Sometimes there's something distinctly different about a place of business that voids its protection. Maybe it's because the owner doesn't have any real emotional connection to the place (or, if he does, it's a connection far different from the one to his home). Maybe the dozens of strangers walking in and out erode the threshold. Maybe a building just doesn't count as a home unless someone sleeps there on a regular basis (your lazy co-worker is the only thing standing between you and the forces of darkness!).

Even if opening a store does count as an invitation, consider this: Your Welcome mat is essentially meaningless. It is not legally binding. Nobody who passes by your house will assume it's directed to them. If you removed the mat, your guests would not look at the threshold in horror, wondering what they did to deserve this slight (unless, of course, you removed it as a reaction to their arrival). It's basically just a piece of decoration. If it means anything at all, it just means "I am a hospitable host," which is a far cry from "Everyone can consider themselves invited to my home."

[tonberrian]

The obvious solutions are to 1.) find a vampire and test the theory, and 2.) don't put out any mats with words on them.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's basically just a piece of decoration. If it means anything at all, it just means "I am a hospitable host," which is a far cry from "Everyone can consider themselves invited to my home."
QFT. A Welcome mat doesn't imply invitation.

Then again, maybe there's vampires lurking around here, chuckling at our terribly misguided mortal reasoning...

[Morph Bark]

The obvious solutions are to 1.) find a vampire and test the theory, and 2.) don't put out any mats with words on them.

3.) lace the mat with garlic and holy water.

Your mat now also can be used as a weapon against vampires.

[Tazar]

At least in Buffy, which I generally find to be a good measuring bar for what defines a vampire, public places (i.e. not privately owned homes) are fair game for anyone to enter; vampires go into the school and hospital with no issues.

[Frozen_Feet]

My interpretation of the myth has always been that vampires can't enter any man-made, enclosed structures with people in them without explicit invitation; however, once a vampire has been invited to a place, it can come and go as it pleases.

So, public places are open to them because there's always some dumb passerby who'll answer "Can I come in?" with "Are ye stupid? O' course ye can!" :smalltongue:

[Joran]

At least in Buffy, which I generally find to be a good measuring bar for what defines a vampire, public places (i.e. not privately owned homes) are fair game for anyone to enter; vampires go into the school and hospital with no issues.

In Buffyverse, the invitation can be written.

From the Buffy wiki:


In Heartthrob, the vampires led by Elisabeth are allowed into the dorm room because of an invitation flyer stating that 'Everyone's Invited'.

Actually, it seems like the OP just invited all vampires in his neighborhood into his house for perpetuity. It's time to move.

Or if the OP can't move, you can try placing religious symbols on the front of his door to deter vampires. Here's a list:

18 Ways to Protect Your House From Evil Spirits (http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/cultures/news-bizarre-ways-protect-your-house)

[snoopy13a]

Somehow the "enter only with an invitation" restriction is able to differentiate between homes and places of business (in those continuities where such a restriction exists). So obviously there exists the ability to detect tacit "invitations to all". Would a welcome mat constitute such an invitation?




I think a good way to look at it is from a trespassing standpoint. For example, a burglar can't argue that a welcome mat gave him/her license to enter a house. Thus, a vampire should be viewed similiarly.

For places that have both public and private aspects such as a hospital, casino/hotel, etc, I think the vampire should be able to enter the public sectors but shouldn't be able to enter any private area where someone sleeps. For example, a vampire could enter a hotel lobby but couldn't go into someone's room unless invited by someone who is sleeping there. Also, in the hotel room scenario, the vampire would lose his/her ability to enter once the room is let out to another person.

[Starbuck_II]

At least in Buffy, which I generally find to be a good measuring bar for what defines a vampire, public places (i.e. not privately owned homes) are fair game for anyone to enter; vampires go into the school and hospital with no issues.

Nope. The reason the school doesn't count? Because written in latin it says: All who wish to learn are welcome to enter.

Angelus notes this on an episode.

So Buffyverse vampires = Welcome mat means being attacked by vampires.

[Gaelbert]

I think a welcome mat would just indicate the vampire was welcome to stand on the mat. If you have something like "Welcome into my home," that may be different.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if Dracula had to be invited- I think in wolf form or bat form, he was able to enter Lucy's house despite no explicit invitations.

And, I think, something like that may have occurred with Mina as well.

He issues an explicit invitation to Harker - "Enter freely and of your own will" but this may just be custom.

[J.Gellert]

No mortal, of course it doesn't count as an invitation. Do not be concerned further.

In fact, I recommend it to everyone, as it is highly fashionable and definitely not dangerous.

And remember! Red meat, poultry, lentils, beans, leaf vegetables, tofu, chickpeas and black-eyed peas are excellent for your health.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Depends whether or not the welcome mat prepared explosive runes this morning.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm not sure if Dracula had to be invited- I think in wolf form or bat form, he was able to enter Lucy's house despite no explicit invitations.

Dracula most definitely needed invitations. Heck, he even had to file his immigration paperwork before he could set foot in Great Britain, and he had to legally purchase all of his safe houses!

With Lucy, he managed to send a wolf he was controlling into her house; the news reported that a wolf had escaped from the zoo earlier that night. He was also able to enthrall Lucy into giving him an invitation.


And, I think, something like that may have occurred with Mina as well.

Nope. Renfield issued that invitation. It was kind of a big deal. :smalltongue:

[Foeofthelance]

Nope. The reason the school doesn't count? Because written in latin it says: All who wish to learn are welcome to enter.

Angelus notes this on an episode.

So Buffyverse vampires = Welcome mat means being attacked by vampires.

I know in the Dark Hunter series its anything considered to be a private domain is off limits unless an invitation is tendered. So vampires can walk around hospitals, schools, shopping malls, wherever, because those are considered to be public property. They can even enter apartment buildings without an invitation, but not the individual apartments themselves. Granted, if they screw up and break the rules its heavily implied that Zeus will personally zap them, if someone more powerful doesn't beat him to it.

RE the Buffyverse: The vamps could attend the party because "Everyone is invited!" includes vampires. I don't think a Welcome mat would be sufficient, because it doesn't say who is welcome.

[Tazar]

Nope. The reason the school doesn't count? Because written in latin it says: All who wish to learn are welcome to enter.

Angelus notes this on an episode.

So Buffyverse vampires = Welcome mat means being attacked by vampires.

Ah, true, but isn't it also a public place?
"Welcome" is also hardly as specific as "All who wish to learn are welcome to enter".

Without specifying what exactly is "welcome", it can't be assumed to be an invitation into the house.

[Susano-wo]

First a question to Hamish and mewtarthio. are you guys talking book or moive? (I had a hard time making it through the book after seeing the movie... I know, I'm a philistine:smallfrown:)

Also, I can see multiple answers depending on the fiction.
any implied invitation
implied invitations ok, but must be directed(no passive welcome mats or something like that, but inadvertently inviting him in some way in a conversation is fine)
ONly explicit invitations

Basically, which one seems appropriate depends on how focused the author is on spiritual legalism (whether it be vampires or all spirits/supernatural creaures). If the author is not, then option 3 seems best, but otherwise, the other two seem to be better.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't know but I'm personally going to have a "go away" mat.

My friends will know I'm joking (And people I inform such as employers) and people I don't want coming to my door won't.

It's a win-lose situation and I'm the one who wins.:smallamused:

[SaintRidley]

Entirely possible that the vampires aren't sure whether a welcome mat does grant invitation. A great majority may well choose to simply not chance it, but a small number may go "Well, it does say welcome. Maybe it's good enough. The least I can do is try."

Whether it works or not... Well, that's sort of too late to consider now, isn't it? I guess you'll find out if you wind up with a sunlight allergy and a thing for blood.

[Bhu]

From what I remember they have to be invited by a person if the building is inhabited.

[Mewtarthio]

On a related note, how come more vampires don't hang out in their thralls' basements? Think about it: It's technically a home, so you've got a perfect safehouse against other vampires. You're safe from mortals, too, since vampire hunters can't just break into an occupied home without legal repercussions. Okay, it's probably the least glorified lair imaginable, but you don't live a hundred years if it's glory you're after.

Granted, it does require a few prerequisites, such as your thralls being reliable (eg not just temporarily suborned mortals who could later have a change of heart, nor utterly will-less slaves that any vampire can switch to a different side) and you not being the "dead twelve hours a day" kind of vampire (it's awfully inconvenient if the vampire hunters can just tip off the police to the corpse in your thrall's basement). Still, you'd think it'd be a more common tactic.

And just to stay even more on-topic: Is there some way to "invite" someone without technically inviting them? That is, a way to indicate that you're perfectly fine with your visitor trying to get inside, and they'd be welcome to your hospitality if they could do so, but without actually saying that you want them to come in? Preferably without seeming insane (somewhat eccentric is okay)?

[Avilan the Grey]

I think a good way to look at it is from a trespassing standpoint. For example, a burglar can't argue that a welcome mat gave him/her license to enter a house. Thus, a vampire should be viewed similiarly.

I think this is very true.

Another take on it is in the Dresden Files, where it is a matter of how long you have lived in a place and how much "at home" you are there. A "Threshold" of power is built up over the years.
This means that a bachelor living in his first apartment probably is screwed, a vampire or demon could push his way through easily. A loving family living in a home that has been in the hands of the family for generations are basically safe from ANYTHING, since the threshold is so strong.

[Killer Angel]

I think a good way to look at it is from a trespassing standpoint. For example, a burglar can't argue that a welcome mat gave him/her license to enter a house. Thus, a vampire should be viewed similiarly.


I wouldn't bet my life on it.
The Vampire won't stand in a court for judgement, as the burglar.
Think to it as a pact with devils. They don't care your real intention (even if very clear), or what's common sense. If you give them a loophole to their own rules (the only ones they care for), they'll use it.

[Aux-Ash]

A welcome is a welcome, not an invitation. A welcome may be given verbally at the same time as a invitation (which may be non-verbal or even unsaid) but they are still separate things. So I'd say a mat like that should not put you at a greater risk regarding vampires.

[druid91]

And just to stay even more on-topic: Is there some way to "invite" someone without technically inviting them? That is, a way to indicate that you're perfectly fine with your visitor trying to get inside, and they'd be welcome to your hospitality if they could do so, but without actually saying that you want them to come in? Preferably without seeming insane (somewhat eccentric is okay)?

Ask the person if they want something Coffee/hot chocolate/whatever snackfood or drink you happen to be enjoying. The doors are locked. When they ask you to unlock the doors say "why?". Then explain when they say "so they can come in."

[Prime32]

{Scrubbed}

[Killer Angel]

A welcome is a welcome, not an invitation. A welcome may be given verbally at the same time as a invitation (which may be non-verbal or even unsaid) but they are still separate things. So I'd say a mat like that should not put you at a greater risk regarding vampires.

Debatable.
Question: "May I come in?"
Answer "You're welcome".
As you said, a simple "welcome" can be used as an invitation, so why risk writing it? As Joran and Starbuck pointed out, in Buffy's world, a generic script is sufficient for the vampire to enter.

[druid91]

The obvious solution is to get a lawyer to write up convoluted conditions to the welcome, Hopefully in a manner that would make a devil proud. Then put it underneath the big word "welcome" in small writing.:smallcool:

[Syka]

I like the how the Dresden-verse handles it. You have to issue an explicit invitation, HOWEVER, that isn't all. What happens is things from the Nevernever are weaker when they are some place they shouldn't be- like a home they have not been invited to. This changes, though, if the house is not a home (ie, the person isn't tied to it, etc) or a lot of people are coming and going over the threshhold which weakens the barrier or something (like, at a crime scene).

I like that explanation a lot. But yeah...explicit invitation is necessary. Harry even has to ask his friend's wife to issue such an invitation so his magic won't be weakened, despite being good friends.

[Aux-Ash]

Debatable.
Question: "May I come in?"
Answer "You're welcome".
As you said, a simple "welcome" can be used as an invitation, so why risk writing it? As Joran and Starbuck pointed out, in Buffy's world, a generic script is sufficient for the vampire to enter.

Ah, but then I am at the same time giving my invitation. Often through body language, tone or just the context. The same thing said in the garden or on the street does not mean they are welcome to enter my house after all.
I can use a welcome as part of my invitation, but it is not in itself an invitation.

[Abies]

A welcome is a welcome, not an invitation. A welcome may be given verbally at the same time as a invitation (which may be non-verbal or even unsaid) but they are still separate things. So I'd say a mat like that should not put you at a greater risk regarding vampires.

This is true when used in terms of a verb, but when used as an adjective the terms are not so distinct.

I suppose in that case one would need to deconstruct what part of speech the mat is using. I suppose it is a greeting, as in "Welcome to my home". However by the same token it may be a declaration "All are Welcome". The first would not necessarily be construed as an invitation, whereas the second unambigously is.

I'll go with the theory that the intent of the person placing the mat (sign or other posting whether self-written or not) is what determines the meaning of the message. In that case, I'm ok since I certainly do not intend it to be an invitation to all.

As for the question of an invitation not being an invitation, its as simple as asking "Would you like to come in?" You'll notice this is not an actual invitation to enter, you're just asking wheter the individual would like to come in or not. In common usage it is used as an invitation to enter since in the asking it is implied that one one would not ask unless the resident actually wanted the person to come in, and as this is reality there is nothing stopping the visitor from entering without an actual invitation. For a vampire though, this would be a trap, they might want to come in but since no actual invitation was offered they could not.

Incidentally, this is fun to use on folks who pop up at your door you really don't like or who have no real business entering your house. Upon "accepting" and taking the first step toward the entryway, you just comment "well that's interesting, why do you want to come in?" It makes it pretty clear from there on out you don't want them around.

[Killer Angel]

Ah, but then I am at the same time giving my invitation. Often through body language, tone or just the context. The same thing said in the garden or on the street does not mean they are welcome to enter my house after all.
I can use a welcome as part of my invitation, but it is not in itself an invitation.

Eh, I don't argue your real intention... it's pretty clear that you're not actively inviting anyone to enter.
The real question is: do the vampire care about what you mean, or he adhere to what you're actually saying? Will he consider a generic, written "welcome", a sufficient loophole to avoid the forbiddance?
Maybe yes, or maybe not, and I don't wanna risk my life on it. I won't have a moral satisfaction, if my last words were "hey, it isn't fair..." :smalltongue:

[Aux-Ash]

Abies: I'd say that the question is a invitation, but if you add that last question you revoke it. All in all it's probably a bad idea to empirically test if commonly accepted invitations work on vampires if you don't mean them, you might suddenly find yourself with a vampire in the house after all :smalltongue:

Killer Angel: I don't think it's so much about caring what you say as being forced to await a invitation, kind of like we are forced to be affected by gravity. If he or she is not invited (not just welcomed), no entry is possible. If he or she is invited, the protection you have just ceased.
But if one is concerned perhaps the appropriate doormat would be: "Everyone but vampires are welcome"

[Tazar]

I wouldn't bet my life on it.
The Vampire won't stand in a court for judgement, as the burglar.
Think to it as a pact with devils. They don't care your real intention (even if very clear), or what's common sense. If you give them a loophole to their own rules (the only ones they care for), they'll use it.

Sounds a lot like lawyers to me. :smallwink:

[Thufir]

Nope. The reason the school doesn't count? Because written in latin it says: All who wish to learn are welcome to enter.

Angelus notes this on an episode.

True, but later on and on Angel, they lay down the rules in a much clearer fashion - the restriction only applies if someone lives there. A guy on Angel says he's considering just putting a bed in his shop and basically moving in, so vampires can't just wander in any time; but they could before, no invitation required, because it's a public place.
On the other hand, Angel can enter public accommodation, because the occupants don't technically live there.
It's also made clear, on Buffy, that for the invitation to be valid, it must be issued by someone who lives in the building in question. So, regardless of whether "Welcome" qualifies as an invitation or not, I don't think it would work unless you made the doormat yourself. Maybe if you waved it at the vampire it might count as a non-verbal invitation.

[zyborg]

I wonder... if it were true that vampires couldn't enter public buildings without permission, could they enter supermarkets? After all, their doors are clearly marked "Enter"...

[Starbuck_II]

I wonder... if it were true that vampires couldn't enter public buildings without permission, could they enter supermarkets? After all, their doors are clearly marked "Enter"...

Yes, enter is telling him they can enter.

[Abies]

I wonder... if it were true that vampires couldn't enter public buildings without permission, could they enter supermarkets? After all, their doors are clearly marked "Enter"...

That word alone can not be construed as an invitation. Even if it could, directly adjacent to that door is another that says "Exit", so the doors would be sending simultaneous mixed messages.


Yes, enter is telling him they can enter.
No, labeling a door as an entrance does not imply or grant permission to actually use it.

I suppose the situation where there is a sign that says "Please use other door" could be interpreted as an invitation. After all, if the door is an entrance, and you are please being asked to use it, then the sign maker clearly wants you to come in... But these are public places, which by concensus are not protected by the restriction anyhow.

[Joran]

In the same vein, Vampires aren't allowed to cross running water.

What's considered "running water" and does it need to be open to the air? For instance, if I laid pipes surrounding my house, like an invisible dog fence, does that count as "running water"? Or would I need to make a moat, with pump to keep the water flowing, open to the air?

[Starbuck_II]

In the same vein, Vampires aren't allowed to cross running water.

What's considered "running water" and does it need to be open to the air? For instance, if I laid pipes surrounding my house, like an invisible dog fence, does that count as "running water"? Or would I need to make a moat, with pump to keep the water flowing, open to the air?

That is two issues.
1) Running water they can't enter, but land over the running water they can. So pipes below the ground help only if the vampires tries to phase through the grounf (he now can't). Since I know few vampire stories where they phase: it isn't neccesary.

A moat works if it has that pump I guess.

[Frozen_Feet]

"Running water", in my book, is any flowing body of water large enough that you can't get over it with a single step, one foot still on the ground. Because of this, only running water under open sky is likely to be hindrance to a vampire. However, they should be forced to hiding during rain by my logic...

[Joran]

That is two issues.
1) Running water they can't enter, but land over the running water they can. So pipes below the ground help only if the vampires tries to phase through the grounf (he now can't). Since I know few vampire stories where they phase: it isn't neccesary.

A moat works if it has that pump I guess.

Hmm... What if the vampire puts a plank over the running water or if it's a bridge over a river?

[Frozen_Feet]

Bridges are good, as long as they neither start from or end to crossroads. :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I suppose the situation where there is a sign that says "Please use other door" could be interpreted as an invitation. After all, if the door is an entrance, and you are please being asked to use it, then the sign maker clearly wants you to come in... But these are public places, which by concensus are not protected by the restriction anyhow.

We're lucky in Switzerland, then. Here the customary sign is "This door is not an Entrance" on the exit, not "Use other door".

[WitchSlayer]

If a welcome mat is a vampire invitation, I'm installing those sunlight simulation light bulbs in all my lamps.

[Eldan]

Ah, the Gantz approach to vampire killing.

[Mewtarthio]

I wonder... if it were true that vampires couldn't enter public buildings without permission, could they enter supermarkets? After all, their doors are clearly marked "Enter"...

The doors don't matter. All the vampire needs to do is hunt down one advertisement. :smallamused:

[WitchSlayer]

Hmm, would any house that had an Open House be considered an invitation?

[Starbuck_II]

Um, open houses are saying "you can come in if you are considering buying possibly".
All the vamp needs to do is consider buying even if he doesn't buy it. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Sounds a lot like lawyers to me. :smallwink:

Do you really think that lawyers are human creatures, do you? :smalltongue:

[Starbuck_II]

Paralegals are actual humans I'll note. But to become a lawyer might require losing humanity. :smallbiggrin:

[Lillith]

So I got a question. If a vampire has been invited inside a building and kills the residents then leaves. Would he still be able to enter the building when a new family lives there?

[Starbuck_II]

Assuming, the Vampires doesn't live there: he loses entering rights when another family claims it.

Although, it would be best to blesss the house after newly acquiring it.

[Mewtarthio]

So I got a question. If a vampire has been invited inside a building and kills the residents then leaves. Would he still be able to enter the building when a new family lives there?

Usually, once someone else legally purchases the home, vampires need to be re-invited. The idea is that the current resident hasn't extended an invitation yet (plus, given that vampires tend to be really, really old, it kind of defeats the point if they can go anywhere they've ever been).

[GM.Casper]

I wonder, did Artemis Fowl removed all ‘Welcome’ mats from his home when planning his “kidnap an elf” plot? :smalltongue:

I’m planning to run modern urban fantasy game soon, so this is giving me lot of cool ideas.

[VanBuren]

No mortal, of course it doesn't count as an invitation. Do not be concerned further.

In fact, I recommend it to everyone, as it is highly fashionable and definitely not dangerous.

And remember! Red meat, poultry, lentils, beans, leaf vegetables, tofu, chickpeas and black-eyed peas are excellent for your health.

Man, I sound delicious!

I bet you're upset that you're not going to get to eat me, huh? I know I would be.

[Castel]

So, if the issue of feeling at home is important, too... what happens to people who feel at home on the road? :smallconfused:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I wonder, did Artemis Fowl removed all ‘Welcome’ mats from his home when planning his “kidnap an elf” plot? :smalltongue:

I can't imagine Artemis Fowl having 'Welcome' mats in his manor in the first place :smallbiggrin:

[Joran]

So, if the issue of feeling at home is important, too... what happens to people who feel at home on the road? :smallconfused:

You're vampire bait then. Motel rooms or other temporary residences don't count for the invitation rule. The invitation only applies to private domiciles. I wonder what happens if you live out of your car though.


Um, open houses are saying "you can come in if you are considering buying possibly".
All the vamp needs to do is consider buying even if he doesn't buy it. :smallbiggrin:

I've visited open houses without even considering buying. I'm a frequent attendee to open houses to houses in my neighborhood so I can see how people have decorated their house and what price the house is going for.

The real estate agent doesn't mind, since she gets to record a visitor and she gets free exposure if a friend or I want to sell a house with her later.

[AstralFire]

http://www.sluggy.com/images/comics/000206b3.jpg
http://www.sluggy.com/images/comics/000206b4.jpg
Sluggy Freelance (http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/20000206)

I felt this image was pertinent to this conversation.

[Xondoure]

These are vamps we're talking about right? When push comes to shove don't take the risk that they could use the mat as an invitation, for then you are dead. The pros of a welcome mat simply do not outweigh the cons.

[leakingpen]

No, hotel room counts. During the time that you are renting the room, it is your home, with all the protections that affords, supernaturally. There are several classic vampire stories with the invitation clause in which the person is staying in a rented home.

[Joran]

No, hotel room counts. During the time that you are renting the room, it is your home, with all the protections that affords, supernaturally. There are several classic vampire stories with the invitation clause in which the person is staying in a rented home.

In Buffyverse it doesn't; temporary living arrangements like hotels and motels do not require an invitation.

In the Dresden Files, it sounds like since a person wouldn't have lived in a hotel or motel long enough, that it wouldn't build up much resistance to a demon or vampire entrance.

[Killer Angel]

I felt this image was pertinent to this conversation.

I love this forum... :smallbiggrin: