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View Full Version : The Swift Slayer [3.5 base class] PEACH appreciated



The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 03:09 AM
This class is based on Zenanarchist's Hunter-Slayer class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170708) that he didn't get a chance to complete. I really liked Death Step as a feature, and I wanted to make a class based around speed. This is my first homebrew base class.



The Swift Slayer
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Death Step, Maneuvers|3|3|1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Trackless Speed, Bonus feat|4|3|1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement|5|3|1

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Blurred Step, Death Step(Swift)|5|4|2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Evasion|6|4|2

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Hidden Step|6|4|2

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Bonus Feat, Friendly Step|7|4|2

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Acrobatics, Death Step(Free, 2/round)|7|5|2

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|8|5|2

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Swift Appraisal|8|5|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Improved Blurred Step|9|5|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Gravity Defying Step, Death Step(3/round)|9|5|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Bonus Feat|10|6|3

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Aggressive Step|10|6|3

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Improved Evasion|11|6|3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Slow Down, Death Step(4/round)|11|6|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Freedom of Speed|12|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Bonus Feat|12|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Ethereal Step|13|7|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Speed|14|7|4

[/table]
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
The swift slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

Maneuvers:
You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. A Swift Slayer chooses his maneuvers from two disciplines chosen at first level. He gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.

Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied below). A maneuver usable by a swift slayer is considered an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.

You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table above. You must meet a maneuverís prerequisite in order to learn it. See the table on page 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered swift slayer level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you can lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can chose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th-level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisite of the new maneuver. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied:
You can ready all of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. Your ready your maneuvers by remaining motionless for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to meditate again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes not moving, you can change your readied maneuvers.

You begin an encounter with all of your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).

You may recover a single expended maneuver by staying in the same space for a round. You may not switch stances or initiate any maneuvers the round you wish to recover a maneuver.

Stances Known:
You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline you have access to. At 5th, 10th, and 16th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in the stance description.

Unlike with new maneuvers you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

Death Step (Ex):
The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.

His primal speed carries him from one spot to another in the blink of an eye, ignoring nearly all obstacles and pitfalls in their way. This ability uses a move action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. He may not pass through solid matter, or an effect such as Force Wall. The swift slayer still actually moves through the area, so area effect spells, such as cloud kill, effect him as he passes through them. This ability does trigger attacks of opportunity, if he passes through someone's threatened space. He may not use this ability when grappled.
At first level he may do this once per round, as a move action.
At fourth level it only takes a swift action to Death Step
At eight level it only takes a free action to Death Step, and from now on he treats his base land speed as 10' higher for the purpose of Death Step.
At twelfth level he gains an additional use as a free action, once per round.
Finally, at 16th level, gains one more additional use as a free action, once per round, for a total of 3 free Death Steps per round.
The swift slayer must still make move silently and hide checks while utilising this method of movement, even at later levels. He is not teleporting, merely moving faster than the eye can follow.
The swift slayer may not perform this act of speed if he is wearing greater than light armor.

For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, and full attack.

Trackless Speed (Ex):
Starting at 2nd level, a Swift leaves no trail and cannot be tracked. He may choose to leave a trail if so desired, but he must move at 50% speed.

Bonus Feats:
At 2nd level, and every 5 levels thereafter, a swift slayer gains a bonus feat from the following list. He must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Weapon Finesse.

Fast Movement (Ex):
The swift slayer's speed is supernaturally quick. At third level his base land speed increases by +10 feet.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The swift slayer has keen perception, allowing him to react swiftly to sudden danger. Starting at 4th level, he retains his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) even when caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the swift slayer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Blurred Step (Ex):
Starting at 4th level, the swift slayer's form becomes a blurred shape when he death steps. He gains a 20% miss chance to attacks of opportunity that would be triggered by death step movement.

Evasion (Ex):
At 5th level and higher, a swift slayer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the swift slayer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Hidden Step (Ex):
At 6th level the swift slayer's movement is so quick he becomes practically invisible. A swift slayer gains hide in plain sight (can use the Hide skill even while being observed) when he is Death Stepping, and for one round after a Death Step, or until the slayer attacks.

Friendly Step (Ex);
At 7th level, a swift slayer may take a willing being with him when he death steps.

Acrobatics (Ex):
A swift slayer of eighth level has taken his physical fitness to new heights. He gains +5 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks and may use his death step to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if he begins and ends his move on a horizontal surface. Treat the wall as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring his movement. Passing from floor to wall or wall to floor costs no movement; he can change surfaces freely. If he ends his movement on a vertical surface, he must make a climb check to keep from sliding down. Additionally, any time the swift slayer falls and is within five feet of an uneven surface (cave wall, tree, broken brick wall) may slow his fall so that he takes 1 less die of falling damage for every two class levels of swift slayer he has.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 9th level, the swift slayerís reaction time improves further, allowing him to evade attacks normally even when being attacked by multiple assailants. At level 8, the swift slayer can no longer be flanked. The swift slayer cannot be sneak attacked unless the attacker has four more effective rogue levels than the swift slayer has effective swift slayer levels. If the swift slayer has uncanny dodge from a different class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum effective rogue level an attacker must have to flank the character.

Swift Appraisal(Ex):
Starting at 10th level, the swift slayer add his Intelligence bonus to his Initiative.

Improved Blurred Step (Ex):
The swift slayer's sheer speed makes him extremely difficult to track in combat starting at 11th level. On any turn when he uses his death step, the swift slayer's form appears to waver and shift, and he gains 20% concealment as if he was affected by a blur spell. This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn.

Gravity Defying Step (Ex):
At 12th level the swift slayer is no longer bound by gravity. His death step is treated as flight if he wishes, and if he ends movement in the air, he may hover there until the end of his next turn before he starts to fall.

Aggressive Step (Ex):
At 14th level, the swift slayer is able to transfer his speed to an unwilling opponent. If he death steps to a square adjacent to an enemy, he may make a special bull rush attempt as a standard action. He adds 2 to his opposed strength check, and, in addition, may forgoe any number of death steps he has remaining in the round; he gains an additional +1 to his check for every 5' of death step forgone in this manner. He does not need to move with his opponent to continue pushing him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which his check result is greater than the defenderís check result, and the opponent can exceed his normal movement limit.

Improved Evasion (Ex):
At 15th level, the swift slayer's reflexes have become superhuman. This ability works like evasion, except that while the swift slayer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Slow Down (Ex):
The swift slayer's perception is fast and detail-oriented, to keep up with his neck-breaking speed. When he slows down, however, his senses do not, making him quick at sizing up situations. Starting at 16th level, once per encounter, when the swift slayer stays in the same space for a round, he may take stock of his surroundings as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunities. He gains one of the following benefits:

Gains a number of temporary HP equal to his HD. The use of this ability lasts for three rounds and doesn't stack with temporary HP from any other source or with itself.
Gain +3d6 insight bonus to damage on all attacks until the end of the next round.
Gain +6 to attack on all attack rolls until the end of the round.
Gain +9 Dodge bonus to AC during the following until the end of the round.
If there is an unwanted effect upon him whose duration is measured in rounds, make another saving throw against the effect to remove it if it originally granted a save.


Freedom of Speed (Ex):
At 17th level, a swift slayer acts as if he is permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.

Ethereal Step (Ex):
At 19th level, the Swift Slayer's speed breaks through reality. Whenever he death steps, he may act as if under the effects of an etheral jaunt spell, except that he moves at full speed.

Deadly Speed(Ex):
At 20th level, the swift slayer gains the ability use a burst of superhuman speed to take two turns worth of actions in one round once per combat encounter. Following the use of Deadly Speed, the swift slayer must succeed a constitution save (DC 25) or become fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds.

I edited the skills, changed death step, and tweaked class features. Traded invisibility for hide in plain site. I think it's looking pretty good.
I would like feedback on Slow Down's bonuses, Ethereal Step, and Aggressive Step primarily, as well as any other criticisms, concerns, or compliments :smallwink:
Fluff apparently got left on my relatives computer, I'll have to re-write it.

Edit: Previous versions and changelog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051588&postcount=35)

Dead_Jester
2010-11-19, 12:59 PM
Before I start, I want to say I like the concept behind the class, but this is very, very strong (much stronger than warblade).

First of all, this class gets free teleportation at level 1 that scales with levels, which refreshes it's maneuvers, and can be broken up. This makes this class able to use any of it's maneuvers, every round, hit and run and still be able to use a boost. I recommend making Death Step a move action at early levels, and later improving to swift, and maybe to free later, but not at level 1. The extra stuff like invisibility, unbreakable concealment and displacement further push this into the ridiculous.

Swift Strike (or Hunter's Pounce, because I believe they are 1 and the same) needs to mention if the bonus damage applies to all attacks or to only the first one. Also, if it applies to all attacks, this could be problematic, as the unoptimized damage it could do would be ridiculous (Deadly Speed, Death Step in melee, Raging Mongoose for an extra 4 attacks, Time Stand Still for 2 full attacks, next turn Death Step to refresh Time Stand Still for 2 more full attacks, plus a bunch of extra ones from Combat Style, all of those at + 9d6 damage, and they can be spread out amongst many enemies). I recommend making it scale slower (maybe up to 5d6, but even than, it is always free damage) and making it apply only to the first attack of the round.

Also, combat style 1 for twf is much stronger than the rest, and definitely shouldn't be given at level 2. This class would be perfectly fine without a combat style bonus.

Called Shot, if it can be used with more than one attack (even if it can't, it's just making a strong ability stronger, and it can be used with maneuvers too), it becomes ridiculous, letting you stun-luck and put a ton of debuff, all at the same time, with absolutely no effort or expenditure of resources.

Quick Counter, by it's nature, is badly worded, as it always gives 2 or more attacks if used with a melee weapon and the twf tree was selected. I don't really see the need for this, as this class is an initiator, so it already gets Counters as maneuvers, and this makes them entirely useless.

Superior Precision mentions Hunter's Precision, which doesn't exist, and is ridiculously good, as it makes the use of Called Shot absolutely free or makes missing almost impossible (making this even stronger). I don't even want to imagine what this could cause with a crit-fishing build with keen kukris and the Blood in the Water stance.

Death Strike is useless, as by that level, 3 rounds of damage (especially from this guy) is more than enough to kill anything.

The Uncanny Dodge and Evasion lines are only gravy, not really making this any stronger than it is, but making it harder to kill-off.

All in all, this class is simply too strong. It is still tier 3, but it isn't balanced with any of those.

The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 01:49 PM
Thanks for the comments Jester, I love your sublime matador class.
I was worried I was making this overpowered, but I figured it was better to be overpowered and cut out bad abilities than be underpowered and not include some ideas. I knew I'd have to do some trimming, I just needed help with where, and how much.


First of all, this class gets free teleportation at level 1 that scales with levels, which refreshes it's maneuvers, and can be broken up. This makes this class able to use any of it's maneuvers, every round, hit and run and still be able to use a boost. I recommend making Death Step a move action at early levels, and later improving to swift, and maybe to free later, but not at level 1. The extra stuff like invisibility, unbreakable concealment and displacement further push this into the ridiculous.
I think I should probably make it a move action that scales up to swift and then free. Or maybe have a first level death step be movement, then later give a swift one, then later still a free one, and another free one later on. That way as you scale up in level you can death step freely, but if you really need to move far you'll still have to use some action economy. When he death steps and doesn't use any maneuvers in a round he may recover one expended maneuver, not all of them. The concealment that can't be seen through with true seeing was in response to everything and its mother getting true seeing at later levels for free. Maybe I should remove the displacement, and just leave it as blur.


Swift Strike (or Hunter's Pounce, because I believe they are 1 and the same) needs to mention if the bonus damage applies to all attacks or to only the first one. Also, if it applies to all attacks, this could be problematic, as the unoptimized damage it could do would be ridiculous (Deadly Speed, Death Step in melee, Raging Mongoose for an extra 4 attacks, Time Stand Still for 2 full attacks, next turn Death Step to refresh Time Stand Still for 2 more full attacks, plus a bunch of extra ones from Combat Style, all of those at + 9d6 damage, and they can be spread out amongst many enemies). I recommend making it scale slower (maybe up to 5d6, but even than, it is always free damage) and making it apply only to the first attack of the round.
It applies only to one attack a round, like other precision damage. I guess I should make that clearer. I tried to make it scale similarly to a scout, but offset by a level. How much should I decrease the damage by?


Also, combat style 1 for twf is much stronger than the rest, and definitely shouldn't be given at level 2. This class would be perfectly fine without a combat style bonus.
Hmmmm, maybe you're right and I should remove the styles. I'll think about it. Why though is it all that much stronger? At 2nd level, it gives one offhand attack at a minus to the roll when you use a non-full attack maneuver. If I were to keep it, should I make it only one extra attack, permanently?


Called Shot, if it can be used with more than one attack (even if it can't, it's just making a strong ability stronger, and it can be used with maneuvers too), it becomes ridiculous, letting you stun-luck and put a ton of debuff, all at the same time, with absolutely no effort or expenditure of resources.
It can't, it can only be used when you would be able to apply swift strike damage. I think it could work as an ability, but I'm not sure about the trade ratios for damage die.


Quick Counter, by it's nature, is badly worded, as it always gives 2 or more attacks if used with a melee weapon and the twf tree was selected. I don't really see the need for this, as this class is an initiator, so it already gets Counters as maneuvers, and this makes them entirely useless.
Yeah, it was my only dead level, and I was floundering to come up with an ability. I didn't really like it, do you have any ideas to replace it?


Superior Precision mentions Hunter's Precision, which doesn't exist, and is ridiculously good, as it makes the use of Called Shot absolutely free or makes missing almost impossible (making this even stronger). I don't even want to imagine what this could cause with a crit-fishing build with keen kukris and the Blood in the Water stance.
Yeah, I can see that now. I think I'll remove the stacking bonuses, but keep the apply precision damage to undead, constructs, etc.


Death Strike is useless, as by that level, 3 rounds of damage (especially from this guy) is more than enough to kill anything.
How would you suggest I change it?[/quote]


The Uncanny Dodge and Evasion lines are only gravy, not really making this any stronger than it is, but making it harder to kill-off.
I was trying to reflect how fast he is, I should probably remove some abilities and move those two lines around.


All in all, this class is simply too strong. It is still tier 3, but it isn't balanced with any of those.
Thanks again for your comments. I'll be trying to implement some of your suggestions tonight.

Fail
2010-11-19, 03:23 PM
Actually, I'd say you're quite close to a class that can coexist with cleric, druid and wizard (not using infinite loops and similar) without embarassment, and should keep that. To that end:

1) you may need to clarify the visibility question: since, even with the basic step, you "only become visible" when you stop, do you need any Hide checks if you stop in an unseen place?
2) by "move her", do you mean "carry her on your movement"?
3) just reminding: that Spot DC means auto-pass for same-level trained opponents - that said, it auto-working against untrained ones may be benefit enough.
4) the cumulative bonuses have to cap somewhere - maybe half class level?
5) at least the head and leg shots need to grant saves; and no, worsening the attack penalty doesn't work - finding ways to (nearly) auto-hit with a single attack that delivers a crippling status will still be easy.
6) flight might do better to come earlier (say, level 10-13); else, people will be using flight items until they get the former, and may not drop them anyway.
7) the fatigue DC's trivial, as the absolute minimum Fortitude you'd have by then's +14 (+6 base, +3 enhancement to Con (if it was 10, which's unlikely), +5 resistance).
8) as-is, it kinda lacks out-of-dungeon stuff to do compared to the best classes, so it'd do well to gain one of: Search and Disable Device, Diplomacy and Intimidate, or all Knowledges (a possibility with an assassin that studies targets and guerrilla tactics); maybe one or two extra abilities that aren't concerned with pantry raids too. :P

Also, typo on pounce (which might not be the ideal name, BTW) damage.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-19, 04:43 PM
I haven't really gone over this class, more like skimmed it.

Free teleporting, as in limitless teleporting is straight out OP. Not only does it take little to use, but if you have no limit on how much to use it, then it gets too much. Especially if it's free. With top example being 'ready an action to teleport before my enemy strikes' to get the heck out of the way.

Also, it apparently has as many maneuvres as the warblade, which is bad considering how many more abilities they get. Maybe something in the way of the Crusader would be better; the randomness may cut down on the power.

While the idea is fine, I personally don't like this class too much; the endless teleporting, maneuvres and general surplus of class features is too much. I'd suggest replacing most class features with manuevres really.

The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 06:15 PM
1) you may need to clarify the visibility question: since, even with the basic step, you "only become visible" when you stop, do you need any Hide checks if you stop in an unseen place?
I'll try to clarify that, the intent was that he is treated as being invisible after a death step, until he attacks or his turn ends.

2) by "move her", do you mean "carry her on your movement"?
I'm not sure what you're getting at?

3) just reminding: that Spot DC means auto-pass for same-level trained opponents - that said, it auto-working against untrained ones may be benefit enough.
I'll look over this later tonight.

4) the cumulative bonuses have to cap somewhere - maybe half class level?
Which cumulative bonuses, the ones from precision? And yes, I need to add caps, you're right.

5) at least the head and leg shots need to grant saves; and no, worsening the attack penalty doesn't work - finding ways to (nearly) auto-hit with a single attack that delivers a crippling status will still be easy.
I completely forgot to include fort saves, thanks.

6) flight might do better to come earlier (say, level 10-13); else, people will be using flight items until they get the former, and may not drop them anyway.
I wanted to make it earlier, but I'm not sure at which

7) the fatigue DC's trivial, as the absolute minimum Fortitude you'd have by then's +14 (+6 base, +3 enhancement to Con (if it was 10, which's unlikely), +5 resistance).
Most likely true, what should I increase it to?

8) as-is, it kinda lacks out-of-dungeon stuff to do compared to the best classes, so it'd do well to gain one of: Search and Disable Device, Diplomacy and Intimidate, or all Knowledges (a possibility with an assassin that studies targets and guerrilla tactics); maybe one or two extra abilities that aren't concerned with pantry raids too. :P
I'll be looking over what to change tonight, thanks for your help!


I haven't really gone over this class, more like skimmed it.
Free teleporting, as in limitless teleporting is straight out OP. Not only does it take little to use, but if you have no limit on how much to use it, then it gets too much. Especially if it's free. With top example being 'ready an action to teleport before my enemy strikes' to get the heck out of the way.
Also, it apparently has as many maneuvres as the warblade, which is bad considering how many more abilities they get. Maybe something in the way of the Crusader would be better; the randomness may cut down on the power.
While the idea is fine, I personally don't like this class too much; the endless teleporting, maneuvres and general surplus of class features is too much. I'd suggest replacing most class features with manuevres really.
Well, thanks for commenting. It's not quite teleporting, he can't move through walls, or to places his sight is blocked by. I did not envision a death step being used as a readied action, I'll have to make it so it can't be. He has the maneuvers of a warblade, basically, but not their recovery mechanism. I think I need to cut back on some abilities that are used instead of maneuvers though, like death strike. My problem is that I'm incapable of allowing dead levels in a class, lol.



I changed the swift strike damage progression to be less, and will probably remove the death strike later on. More thoughts are welcome :smallsmile:
So far one thinks power level is ok, one thinks it's too high, and one thinks it's broken.

Realms of Chaos
2010-11-19, 07:16 PM
Readying an action wouldn't be a problem as it always takes a standard action to ready an action (weird but true). Readying an action to use this "teleport" would be just like readying an action to regularly move away from an attack.

The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 07:37 PM
Readying an action wouldn't be a problem as it always takes a standard action to ready an action (weird but true). Readying an action to use this "teleport" would be just like readying an action to regularly move away from an attack.

Thank you for pointing that out, I was just trying to figure out how to change the wording of the ability. :smallsmile:

The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 08:15 PM
Changed some stuff, this post is to keep track of previous versions
Ver 1

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Swift Strike Damage|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Death Step, Maneuvers|
-|3|3|1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Swift Strike, Combat Style|
1d6|4|3|1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement, Weapon Finesse|
1d6|5|3|1

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Evasion|
1d6|5|4|2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Quick Perception|
2d6|6|4|2

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Improved Death Step|
2d6|6|4|2

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Improved Combat Style, Superior Finesse|
2d6|7|4|2

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Acrobatics, Improved Uncanny Dodge|
3d6|7|5|2

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Blurred Step|
3d6|8|5|2

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Called shots|
3d6|8|5|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Combat style mastery|
4d6|9|5|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Improved Evasion|
4d6|9|5|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Freedom of Speed|
4d6|10|6|3

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Unknown movement|
5d6|10|6|3

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Masterful Finesse|
5d6|11|6|3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Quick Counter|
5d6|11|6|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Death Strike|
6d6|12|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Superior Precision|
6d6|12|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Perfect Speed|
6d6|13|7|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Speed|
7d6|14|7|4

[/table]
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
The swift slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and any weapon weapon finesse can be applied to, and with light armor.

Maneuvers:
Added that he gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.

Maneuvers Readied:
Not changed

Stances Known:
Not changed

Death Step (Ex):
The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.

His primal speed carries him from one spot to another in the blink of an eye, ignoring all obstacles and pitfalls in their way. This ability is a free action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. At first level he may do this once per round, however at fourth, eighth and twelfth level he may do this one more additional time (to a maximum of 120 feet per round if the characters base land speed is initially 30ft). The swift slayer must still make move silently and hide checks while utilising this method of movement, even at later levels. He is not teleporting, merely moving faster than the eye can follow.
The swift slayer may not perform this act of speed if he is wearing greater than light armor.

For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, full attack (adding the Swift Strike damage) then death step up to thirty feet away (presuming thirty feet is his base land speed) then death step one more time to carry himself out of running range of his opponent.
Re-worded, made changes to action economy

Swift Strike (Ex):
Any time the hunter slayer death steps more than 10 feet to an opponent his attack or strike in that round is granted 1d6 additional damage. This damage is considered to be precision damage for the purposes of what and who it can affect. This attack must be within 30' of the opponent to successfully add the precision damage. This attack may be a single standard attack or a full attack. The damage increases as the Swift Slayer levels, as indicated on the table.
Re-worded to clarify.

Combat Style (Ex):
At 2nd level, a swift slayer must select one of three combat styles to pursue: archery, two-weapon combat, or thrown weapons. Additionally, he selects one of the 3 martial disciplines to which he has access as his favored discipline. At 6th level and again at 11th level, he may select another of his disciplines as a favoured discipline.

If the swift slayer selects archery, he gains Rapid Shot as a bonus feat, and may make attacks with a projectile weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity. In addition, while in a stance from a favoured discipline, strikes from favored disciplines may be used with a projectile weapon instead of with a melee weapon.
If the swift slayer selects two-weapon combat, he gains the Two-Weapon Fighting feat as a bonus feat. In addition, while in a stance from a favoured discipline, the swift slayer may make a number of offhand attacks during a strike from a favoured discipline as though he were making a full attack. He still takes the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons. This cannot be used in conjunction with a strike that includes a full attack.
If the swift slayer selects thrown weapons, he gains the Quick Draw feat as a bonus feat, and may make attacks with a thrown weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity. In addition, while in a stance from a favoured discipline, strikes from favored disciplines may be used with a thrown weapon instead of with a melee weapon.

(The Swift Slayer gains the feat from his style even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.)
Removed

Fast Movement (Ex):
No change

Weapon Finesse:
Removed "So long as the swift slayer is in a stance of his favored discipline(s), " clause.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
Removed favored discipline stance clause.

Evasion (Ex):
No change

Quick perception (Ex):
No change

Improved Death Step (Ex):
At sixth level the swift slayer's death step becomes even more deadly. Now, the swift slayer does not immediately become visible after making a death step. However, he will still become visible if he attacks a foe, and he becomes visible at the end of his turn (unless he becomes invisible from a different source). This class feature also allows the hunter to touch one other and move them in the same fashion.
Clarified moving another creature

Improved Combat Style (Ex):
At 7th level, a swift slayerís aptitude in his chosen combat style improves.

If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Manyshot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

If the swift slayer selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

If the swift slayer selected thrown weapons at 2nd level, all weapons he throws are treated as if they had the returning quality.

Removed

Superior Finesse:
Removed favored discipline stance clause.

Acrobatics (Ex):
No change

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
Removed favored discipline stance clause.

Blurred Step (Ex):
At 17th level, this ability improves to the point where another being's eyes are unable to follow the swift slayer's movement, making him appear several feet away from his actual location. He now gains the effects of a displacement spell until the beginning of his next turn when he uses his death step, and this concealment cannot be counteracted by a true seeing spell or similar effect.
Made displacement able to be countered by true seeing.

Called Shots (Ex):
Added a save DC.

Combat Style Mastery (Ex):
At 11th level, a swift slayerís aptitude in his chosen combat style improves again.

If he selected archery at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Improved Precise Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
If he selected two-weapon combat at 2nd level, he is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.
If he selected thrown weapons, all thrown weapons used by the swift hunter have their critical threat range increased one step (This stacks with things like keen and improved critical) and the multiplier also increases one step(Up to x4)

Removed

Improved Evasion (Ex):
Moved to 13th level

Freedom of speed (Ex):
Moved to 11th level

Unknown movement (Ex):
Changed DC from 10 + 1/2 swift slayer's level + his Dex modifier to a hide check

Masterful Finesse:
Starting at 15th level, a swift slayer may choose to use his dex modifier instead of his strength modifier to determine damage from his attacks.

Quick Counter (Ex):
A swift slayer retaliates amazingly fast when attacked. When a successful melee attack is scored against a swift slayer, he can make a single immediate melee attack or strike maneuver that uses a single melee attack against the opponent, taking -5 on the attack roll. This ability can only be used once per round.
Removed

Death Strike (Su):
The swift slayer may, so long as he has studied his foe for at least three rounds prior to the attack, make a strike so precise, quick and powerful that the foe instantly drops to the floor, dead. This attack is made at -5 to the hunters attack and the victim receives a fortitude saving throw (DC10+1/2 swift slayer class levels+Dex bonus). If the opponent succeeds at the saving throw, he still takes swift strike damage.
Removed

Superior Precision (Ex):
The swift slayer observes his foe carefully during combat, watching his every move, watching his strikes, watching for weak spots. Any time the swift slayer successfully strikes a foe in melee, he gains +1 cumulative bonus to his next attack until he misses, wherein all bonuses from Superior Precision disappear. His precision damage also bypasses any immunity that the creature may have against critical hits.
Removed the cumulative bonuses and moved it to 16th level

Perfect Speed (Ex):
Moved to Gravity Defying speed

Deadly Speed(Ex):
Upped the DC from 20 to 25


Ver 2:


{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Swift Strike Damage|Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Death Step, Maneuvers|
-|3|3|1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Swift Strike|
1d6|4|3|1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement, Weapon Finesse|
1d6|5|3|1

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Evasion|
1d6|5|4|2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Quick Perception|
2d6|6|4|2

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Improved Death Step|
2d6|6|4|2

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Superior Finesse|
2d6|7|4|2

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Acrobatics, Improved Uncanny Dodge|
3d6|7|5|2

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Blurred Step|
3d6|8|5|2

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Called shots|
3d6|8|5|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Freedom of Speed|
4d6|9|5|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Gravity Defying Speed|
4d6|9|5|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Improved Evasion|
4d6|10|6|3

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Unknown movement|
5d6|10|6|3

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Masterful Finesse|
5d6|11|6|3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Superior Precision|
5d6|11|6|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5||
6d6|12|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6||
6d6|12|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6||
6d6|13|7|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Speed|
7d6|14|7|4

[/table]
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
The swift slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

Maneuvers:
You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, plus one additional of your choice, chosen at first level. He gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.

Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied below). A maneuver usable by a swift slayer is considered an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.

You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table above. You must meet a maneuverís prerequisite in order to learn it. See the table on page 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered barbarian level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you can lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can chose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th-level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisite of the new maneuver. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied:
You can ready all of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. Your ready your maneuvers by meditating for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to meditate again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in meditation, you can change your readied maneuvers.

You begin an encounter with all of your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).

You may recover a single expended maneuver by moving at least 10 feet, either with your Death Step ability, walking, or some other from of natural movement for you. (Teleportation does not count) You may not switch stances or initiate any maneuvers the round you wish to recover a maneuver. Your other actions for the round are unaffected.

Stances Known:
You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline you have access to. At 5th, 10th, and 16th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in the stance description.

Unlike with new maneuvers you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

Death Step (Ex):
The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.

His primal speed carries him from one spot to another in the blink of an eye, ignoring all obstacles and pitfalls in their way. This ability uses a move action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. At first level he may do this once per round.
At fourth level he gains an additional use as a swift action.
At eight level he gains an additional use as a free action, and gains another at twelfth level, and one more at 16th level.
The swift slayer must still make move silently and hide checks while utilising this method of movement, even at later levels. He is not teleporting, merely moving faster than the eye can follow.
The swift slayer may not perform this act of speed if he is wearing greater than light armor.

For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, full attack (adding the Swift Strike damage) then death step up to his base land speed away. If he used a standard action attack instead of a full attack, he could then death step one more time(using his move death step)

Swift Strike (Ex):
Any time the hunter slayer death steps more than 10 feet to an opponent his attack or strike in that round is granted 1d6 additional damage. This damage is considered to be precision damage for the purposes of what and who it can affect. This attack must be within 30' of the opponent to successfully add the precision damage. This damage is only applied to one attack per round. The damage increases as the Swift Slayer levels, as indicated on the table.

Fast Movement (Ex):
The swift slayer's speed is supernaturally quick. His land speed increases by +10 feet.

Weapon Finesse:
So long as the swift slayer is in a stance of his favored discipline(s), he gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The swift slayer has keen perception, allowing him to react swiftly to sudden danger. Starting at 3rd level, he retains his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) even when caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the swift slayer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Evasion (Ex):
At 3rd level and higher, a swift slayer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the swift slayer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Quick perception (Ex):
The swift slayer's instincts are raised to a level unlike any other individual. At fifth level the hunter slayer gains Touch Sight, as per the third level psionic power, out to ten feet. The range of this ability increases by 10 feet for every other level you gain after 5th (20 at 7th, 30 at 9th, 40 at 11th, 50 at 13th, 60 at 15th, 70 at 17th, 80 at 19th)

Improved Death Step (Ex):
At sixth level the swift slayer's death step becomes even more deadly. Now, the swift slayer does not immediately become visible after making a death step. However, he will still become visible if he attacks a foe, and he becomes visible at the end of his turn (unless he becomes invisible from a different source). This class feature also allows the hunter to touch one other being and move them with him when he death steps.

Superior Finesse:
A swift slayer applies the Weapon Finesse feat with any weapon that is considered a one-handed slashing weapon for his size that he is proficient with.

Acrobatics (Ex):
A swift slayer of eighth level has taken his physical fitness to new heights. He gains +5 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks and may use his death step to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if he begins and ends his move on a horizontal surface. Treat the wall as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring his movement. Passing from floor to wall or wall to floor costs no movement; he can change surfaces freely. If he ends his movement on a vertical surface, he must make a climb check to keep from sliding down. Additionally, any time the swift slayer falls and is within five feet of an uneven surface (cave wall, tree, broken brick wall) may slow his fall so that he takes no falling damage at all.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The swift slayerís reaction time improves further, allowing him to evade attacks normally even when being attacked by multiple assailants. At level 8, the swift slayer can no longer be flanked. The swift slayer cannot be sneak attacked unless the attacker has four more effective rogue levels than the swift slayer has effective swift slayer levels. If the swift slayer has uncanny dodge from a different class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum effective rogue level an attacker must have to flank the character.

Blurred Step (Ex):
The swift slayer's sheer speed makes him extremely difficult to track in combat starting at 9th level. On any turn when he uses his death step, the swift slayer's form appears to waver and shift, and he gains 20% concealment as if he was affected by a blur spell. This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn.
At 12th level, this concealment cannot be counteracted by a true seeing spell or similar effect.
At 17th level, this ability improves to the point where another being's eyes are unable to follow the swift slayer's movement, making him appear several feet away from his actual location. He now gains the effects of a displacement spell until the beginning of his next turn when he uses his death step. This concealment can be counteracted by a true seeing spell or similar effect, but in such a case he still benefits from the blur spell effect.

Called Shots (Ex):
Starting at 10th level, when the swift slayer may use his swift strike ability, he may make a called shot on an area of the opponents body. This attack is made at a -6 penalty. The result is dependant on the area of the body that the hunter chooses to strike. The opponent he attacks gets a fortitude saving throw to see if he is affected, with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the swift slayer's total HD, + his intelligence modifier.
If he successfully strikes the head he gives up as many d6 of precision damage from swift strike that he wishes. If he gives up 2 the opponent is shaken for 4 rounds. If he gives up four the opponent is dazed for 3 rounds. If he gives up 6 the opponent is stunned for 2 rounds
If he successfully strikes the arm, he gives up as many d6 of precision damage from swift strike that he wishes. All attacks made by the opponent for the next 4 rounds are decreased by double the amount of d6's given up.
If he successfully strikes a leg, he gives up as many d6 of precision damage from swift strike that he wishes. If he gives up 2 the opponent is flat-footed for 4 rounds. If he gives up four the opponent is staggered for 3 rounds. If he gives up 6 the opponent is knocked prone.
If he successfully strikes the chest, he gives up as many d6 of precision damage from swift strike that he wishes. He may make a single attack at his highest base attack bonus for every 4d6 of swift strike damage he forgoes.


Freedom of speed (Ex):
At 11th level, a swift slayer acts as if he is permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.

Gravity Defying Speed (Ex):
At 12th level the swift slayer is no longer bound by gravity. His death step is treated as flight if he wishes, and if he ends movement in the air, he may hover there for two rounds before he starts to fall.

Improved Evasion (Ex):
This ability works like evasion, except that while the swift slayer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Unknown movement (Ex):
A swift slayer is practically undetectable in his steps. He can't be detected by blindsight, touch sight, or tremor sense unless a successful spot check is made opposed to the swift slayer's hide check. A swift slayer leaves no tracks.

Masterful Finesse:
Starting at 15th level, a swift slayer may choose to use his dex modifier instead of his strength modifier to determine damage from his attacks.

Superior Precision (Ex):
At 16th level, the swift slayer's precision damage bypasses any immunity that the creature may have against critical hits. (Undead. constructs, fortification, etc.)
(Trying to think of a non-combat ability for this level too)

Deadly Speed(Ex):
At 20th level, the swift slayer gains the ability use a burst of superhuman speed to take two turns worth of actions in one round once per combat encounter. If the swift slayer decides to attack in both turns, there is no penalty on any of his attack rolls due to the use of Deadly Speed (any other penalties still apply as normal). Following the use of Deadly Speed, the swift slayer must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 25) or become fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds.


Comments on changes or new class greatly appreciated, as are ideas for abilities to fill the dead levels and/or out of combat flavor abilities.

Proven_Paradox
2010-11-19, 08:37 PM
As some of the others have stated, this is overpowered like mad. Not a bad first try, but you need to reign this in big time. Gonna spoiler individual issues to make this post more readable. Note that I've only lightly scanned other posts.

Proficiencies
First of all, this class starts with free proficiency with the spiked chain. Alarm bells going off now: stick to simple/martial weapons. If you want, limit the martial weapons to bows and finesse-able weapons, though I see no real need to do this. Unless the class has some exotic weapons that are specifically thematic to it (as Monk, Ninja, Bard, and the like) I see no reason to make them free.

Death Step
Death Step in itself isn't a bad idea. A good concept that could very well carry the class. As you've implemented it, it's just insane. First of all, it absolutely shouldn't be unlimited at any level. Whereas the previous posters have suggested making it take actions and get more action efficient as you level, I suggest leaving it a flat swift action and give it a limited number of uses per encounter. Start at 1/encounter at level one, and then get one more every level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20), off the top of my head.

Most of the other abilities that come with death step need to just go away. Even adjusted as I mentioned above, the ability is already great and enough to carry the class: making you invisible and blurred and displaced and all that as well is nine different kinds of overkill. At the very most, give it a blurring effect at high level (13+). If you've limited the number of times per encounter the Slayer can use the ability, maybe make it last multiple rounds. (3 sounds good to me.) Beyond that, we quickly start getting into overpowered territory.

Swift Strike
Swift Strike as-is is just massive packets of damage. I pick Diamond Mind for my third discipline and my favored discipline. Level twenty, initiate Raging Mongoose boost, then hit with Time Stands Still. Let's be conservative and say I'm using a basic 1d8 rapier. (1d8+7d6) 12 times, average 29 damage per strike. Before any other modifiers at all, you do ~350 damage on average with that. Presuming your rapier negates his DR (not difficult at that point), congratulations, you just one shot a freaking Balor, and you're not even trying hard. You even have plenty of damage left to compensate for a few misses.

My first thought upon reading this was, "wait, isn't this just the Scout's skirmish?" I suggest looking up Scout, and replacing Swift Strike with a (much) slower progressing Skirmish. Off the top of my head, progress half the speed of a Scout's skirmish, ending with an entirely reasonable +3d6 damage, +2 AC at level 18 or 19. This also has the added benefit of letting the class benefit from support for the Skirmish feature included in other books (ambush feats, prestige classes, and the like).

Combat Styles
You could do worse things here, but the progression is way fast, in that it's identical to the Ranger. With all the other things this class has going for it, it's kind of silly to completely ape the Ranger's shtick with this. Maybe reduce the progression so that it comes later: the first level doesn't come until level 3, the Improved until level 9-11, and Mastery until 17-20.

Other than that, the styles aren't particularly offensive on their own. For Two-Weapon Fighting, I suggest reducing it to a single extra attack in conjunction with strike: otherwise you get full off-hand attacks from doing a standard action strike, which is silly and overpowered. For Combat Style Mastery (Thrown), I suggest increasing either the range OR the multiplier, not both.

Quick Perception
What the hell is this even supposed to represent? It comes out of nowhere, I can't think of any reason at all for this class to have that ability. You've got enough going for you already. If you really want something like this, take the Diamond Mind stance Hearing the Air.

Called Shots
Think about this for just a few moments and I think you'll see how this is a terrible, terrible idea. The most offensive here is headshots--for a -6 attack penalty (not a big deal on your first attack: I see heavies power attacking for this much regularly at these levels), you can completely stun lock anything not immune to stuns indefinitely. This should scream overpowered: they don't even get a save.

The other targets are quite abusable too. A called shot to the arm can reduce any non-caster to a helpless lump for four rounds straight. Leg shots are a perfect shut-down in whatever form you like that are crazy control in a class that doesn't really need it. Chest strike can be hella abusable if, say, I'm power attacking in addition to the called strike (granted, I need some help from a buffer to make that work due to the attack penalties, but presumably you have allies helping you here).

My suggestion is to just end this ability alltogether. This class has more going for it than any other initiator class already. [edit]Adding saves takes them from HORRIDLY overpowered to just regular overpowered. I still think they need to go.

Misc. Other Things
If Weapon Finesse remains a feat tax for the Rogue, Ninja, Swordsage, and basically every finesse fighter but Swashbuckler, it should remain one for this guy. I would take that out completely.

This class deserves Evasion, but I'm not convinced it should come as early as you've got it right now. Evasion could fill in a dead level somewhere in the 7-9 range. Swordsage doesn't get it until level 9, so use that as a comparison.

I don't have a problem with the wall running part of Acrobatics, but that skill boost is massive and unnecessary--if the Slayer wants to be acrobatic, let him just put points into those skills.

As with Evasion, Improved Evasion comes too early. Fill a dead level somewhere in 16-20 with it, I think.

Freedom of Speed needs to just be scrapped. Get a mage friend or buy the ring.

Unknown Movement can just be replaced with the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness, forces creatures with those abilities to make a Listen or Spot check versus the user's Hide check), which is slightly less potent but does the same thing. It seems like it would be a big deal intuitively, but I've found in practice that it doesn't actually come up very often, so I see no real need to change that.

Masterful Finesse should go. If Swordsages need to take Shadow Blade to get dex to damage, so should Slayers.

Quick Counter needs to go. There are actual counter maneuvers that do this just use them.

Death Strike needs to go. Everyone else needs to take PrCs to get this ability. If a Slayer wants to do death strikes, he can easily qualify for Assassin.

Superior Precision is out of place and the power potential is insane. Recall my Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still strike example above? This could make it perfectly accurate as well. Axe this.

Perfect Speed needs to go. There are stances that replicate this: use this instead.

Deadly Speed needs to go. First I do a Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still strike, and then I do a Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip full attack. I go from one shotting a Balor to one shotting the Tarrasque.

I'm being harsh because I see potential here, but you fall into a common trap of wanting this class to be so awesome that you lose any sense of balance. It happens to the best of us, but the sooner you curb this, the better a homebrewer you will be.

[edit]It looks like I posted in the middle of you editing. Reading the edit now.

[editedit]Rogues can make as many sneak attacks per round as they have attacks. Same for Skirmish, if you can find a way to move and make multiple attacks. You can go the 'one attack per round' route, but I think just going with Skirmish makes more sense.

Most of the comments I made before still apply, so I'm not making major revisions to my post. Just an occasional touch-up.

The Antigamer
2010-11-19, 09:20 PM
Thanks for commenting, sorry I was editing while you were reviewing! :smalltongue:

Proficiencies
First of all, this class starts with free proficiency with the spiked chain. Alarm bells going off now: stick to simple/martial weapons. If you want, limit the martial weapons to bows and finesse-able weapons, though I see no real need to do this. Unless the class has some exotic weapons that are specifically thematic to it (as Monk, Ninja, Bard, and the like) I see no reason to make them free.
I forgot to edit out that during my revision, thanks for pointing it out.

Death Step
Death Step in itself isn't a bad idea. A good concept that could very well carry the class. As you've implemented it, it's just insane. First of all, it absolutely shouldn't be unlimited at any level. Whereas the previous posters have suggested making it take actions and get more action efficient as you level, I suggest leaving it a flat swift action and give it a limited number of uses per encounter. Start at 1/encounter at level one, and then get one more every level divisible by 5 (5, 10, 15, 20), off the top of my head.

Most of the other abilities that come with death step need to just go away. Even adjusted as I mentioned above, the ability is already great and enough to carry the class: making you invisible and blurred and displaced and all that as well is nine different kinds of overkill. At the very most, give it a blurring effect at high level (13+). If you've limited the number of times per encounter the Slayer can use the ability, maybe make it last multiple rounds. (3 sounds good to me.) Beyond that, we quickly start getting into overpowered territory.
Hmmm, I'm not sure about the per encounter limit. Once per encounter just does not fit what I'm going for. But I am listening to multiple people telling me the class is overpowered, I'll ponder what to do. I was thinking about spreading out the extra steps more though. Regarding displacement, I just figured at the level he gets it, everything pretty much has true seeing anyway.

Swift Strike
Swift Strike as-is is just massive packets of damage. I pick Diamond Mind for my third discipline and my favored discipline. Level twenty, initiate Raging Mongoose boost, then hit with Time Stands Still. Let's be conservative and say I'm using a basic 1d8 rapier. (1d8+7d6) 12 times, average 29 damage per strike. Before any other modifiers at all, you do ~350 damage on average with that. Presuming your rapier negates his DR (not difficult at that point), congratulations, you just one shot a freaking Balor, and you're not even trying hard. You even have plenty of damage left to compensate for a few misses.

My first thought upon reading this was, "wait, isn't this just the Scout's skirmish?" I suggest looking up Scout, and replacing Swift Strike with a (much) slower progressing Skirmish. Off the top of my head, progress half the speed of a Scout's skirmish, ending with an entirely reasonable +3d6 damage, +2 AC at level 18 or 19. This also has the added benefit of letting the class benefit from support for the Skirmish feature included in other books (ambush feats, prestige classes, and the like).
I meant it to only apply to the damage from one attack per round. I could switch it out for a slower progressing skirmish, especially since I'll probably be taking out called shots. What do others think, 1/round swift strike damage, or slow progression skirmish?

Combat Styles
You could do worse things here, but the progression is way fast, in that it's identical to the Ranger. With all the other things this class has going for it, it's kind of silly to completely ape the Ranger's shtick with this. Maybe reduce the progression so that it comes later: the first level doesn't come until level 3, the Improved until level 9-11, and Mastery until 17-20.

Other than that, the styles aren't particularly offensive on their own. For Two-Weapon Fighting, I suggest reducing it to a single extra attack in conjunction with strike: otherwise you get full off-hand attacks from doing a standard action strike, which is silly and overpowered. For Combat Style Mastery (Thrown), I suggest increasing either the range OR the multiplier, not both.
I removed the combat styles, so this doesn't apply.

Quick Perception
What the hell is this even supposed to represent? It comes out of nowhere, I can't think of any reason at all for this class to have that ability. You've got enough going for you already. If you really want something like this, take the Diamond Mind stance Hearing the Air.
I was just trying to remember what speed-using superheroes/villains can do, as ideas for abilities, and I recalled that several had extremely extended senses, so that they could keep up with observing things while moving fast. If it's terrible, I'll do away with it.

Called Shots
Think about this for just a few moments and I think you'll see how this is a terrible, terrible idea. The most offensive here is headshots--for a -6 attack penalty (not a big deal on your first attack: I see heavies power attacking for this much regularly at these levels), you can completely stun lock anything not immune to stuns indefinitely. This should scream overpowered: they don't even get a save.

The other targets are quite abusable too. A called shot to the arm can reduce any non-caster to a helpless lump for four rounds straight. Leg shots are a perfect shut-down in whatever form you like that are crazy control in a class that doesn't really need it. Chest strike can be hella abusable if, say, I'm power attacking in addition to the called strike (granted, I need some help from a buffer to make that work due to the attack penalties, but presumably you have allies helping you here).

My suggestion is to just end this ability alltogether. This class has more going for it than any other initiator class already. [edit]Adding saves takes them from HORRIDLY overpowered to just regular overpowered. I still think they need to go.
Yes, I'm starting to see that it should go. I'll probably erase them later on tonight, I just wanted to see how I could change things.

Misc. Other Things
If Weapon Finesse remains a feat tax for the Rogue, Ninja, Swordsage, and basically every finesse fighter but Swashbuckler, it should remain one for this guy. I would take that out completely.

This class deserves Evasion, but I'm not convinced it should come as early as you've got it right now. Evasion could fill in a dead level somewhere in the 7-9 range. Swordsage doesn't get it until level 9, so use that as a comparison.

I don't have a problem with the wall running part of Acrobatics, but that skill boost is massive and unnecessary--if the Slayer wants to be acrobatic, let him just put points into those skills.

As with Evasion, Improved Evasion comes too early. Fill a dead level somewhere in 16-20 with it, I think.

Freedom of Speed needs to just be scrapped. Get a mage friend or buy the ring.

Unknown Movement can just be replaced with the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness, forces creatures with those abilities to make a Listen or Spot check versus the user's Hide check), which is slightly less potent but does the same thing. It seems like it would be a big deal intuitively, but I've found in practice that it doesn't actually come up very often, so I see no real need to change that.

Masterful Finesse should go. If Swordsages need to take Shadow Blade to get dex to damage, so should Slayers.

Quick Counter needs to go. There are actual counter maneuvers that do this just use them.

Death Strike needs to go. Everyone else needs to take PrCs to get this ability. If a Slayer wants to do death strikes, he can easily qualify for Assassin.

Superior Precision is out of place and the power potential is insane. Recall my Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still strike example above? This could make it perfectly accurate as well. Axe this.

Perfect Speed needs to go. There are stances that replicate this: use this instead.

Deadly Speed needs to go. First I do a Raging Mongoose Time Stands Still strike, and then I do a Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip full attack. I go from one shotting a Balor to one shotting the Tarrasque.
I'll be re-shuffling more, evasion and improved evasion will probably be moved up. I was thinking of the Darkstalker feat when I made it, but didn't want to give the feat since many people don't have LoM. I can take out the finesse line. Perfect speed got shuffled around. Freedom of Speed simply clears up an extra spell slot for the party caster, it doesn't seem that bad to me. Is superior precision still crazy op if he is using swift strike once per round, or low-damage skirmish? I can move it up a few levels to fill a gap. Is Deadly Speed really all that bad as a capstone, now that swift strike is changed?



I'm being harsh because I see potential here, but you fall into a common trap of wanting this class to be so awesome that you lose any sense of balance. It happens to the best of us, but the sooner you curb this, the better a homebrewer you will be.
Yes, I appreciate the criticisms. Most of my projects start with lots of flack, and I slowly whittle things away until the completed form emerges.

Thanks again! Also, anyone's thoughts on 1/round swift strike vs skirmish would be welcome.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-19, 10:11 PM
Remember to specify clearly that you can only use Death Step as a free action once per round (more times at higher levels). By default you can make an infinite number of free actions per round.


he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area

OK, he can escape a Forcecage as a a move action at first level. Once he gets his hands on a Ring of X-Ray Vision, he can ignore walls. He can effectively teleport a distance equal to his base speed times the number of uses he has - a bare minimum of 200 feet at 16th level, and probably miles if he's remotely optimized for speed. You need to specifically spell out what he can and cannot pass through with this ability, whether he can move vertically, whether it provokes attacks of opportunity, whether he's affected by walking over caltrops and so on, whether he's affected by ongoing area-of-effect things he passes through, whether it gives the normal movement penalty to his hide and move silent checks, whether he can move through keyholes since he can see through them, etc.

Precision damage in addition to maneuvers is a bit excessive. He basically has a vastly improved version of Spring Attack by 4th level, so every round will consist of using his swift action to get to the opponent, striking, and his move action to get away. Or charging and using his swift to move away, if he's readied a maneuver that works on a charge. It's just adding d6s to whatever strike he chooses to use.

He cannot run out of readied maneuvers if he's halfway intelligent. He'll be moving at least his speed every round, and so recovering a strike every round. At 8th level and above, he can also use and recover a boost or counter every round. His recovery mechanism needs to have an actual cost if he's going to have more maneuvers known and as many readied as a Warblade does. In fact, forcing him to stand still for a round would be a better recovery mechanism - still better than a Warblade's, since he can use it to full attack, but resembling something balanced.

Touchsight is extremely powerful. Darkstalker doesn't work on it. the only way to avoid it is being underground, behind total cover, or incorporeal. The closest thing to this power that an official class gets is the Scout, which gets Blindsense 30' at 10th level and Blindsight as its capstone. Don't do this.

As written, Improved Death Step is getting to treat a target as flat-footed once per round, plus gaining concealment against readied actions to hit him. The ability to move other beings with you needs far more specifics. Does it require a grapple check? Does it require a touch attack? Is there a size limit on the creatures you can move? Does this take an action, or is it free as part of the death step?

Acrobatics is excessive for an 8th-level ability, but not broken. Well, except for near-immunity to falling damage.

Free concealment at 9th-level, ignoring most invisibility-breaking effects at 12th, and free displacement at 19th. Though you have free invisibility (50% concealment) from Improved Death Step a lot of the time anyway.

Yeah, drop the called shots.

Permanent [Ex] Freedom of Movement is really powerful.

Now that you can hover, you can fly indefinitely, though the wording of Death Step already let you fly if you could perch on something after a couple hundred feet, or ended next to a rough surface so you could ignore the falling damage.

Unknown movement... no. Maybe as the capstone, or limited to a small number of rounds per day. But Hide checks are easy enough to optimize that this is pretty egregious at any level.


If the swift slayer decides to attack in both turns, there is no penalty on any of his attack rolls due to the use of Deadly Speed (any other penalties still apply as normal).

What "other penalties"? Does this cancel out penalties to your attack rolls from Bestow Curse and suchlike? Do you mean that you make your full attack routine at your highest attack bonus?

Also, there are waaay to many ways to get immune to fatigue (or get +24 to Fort saves and Steadfast Determination) for the save vs fatigue for a few rounds to be an actual limitation. Automatic fatigue for 1d4 rounds would be reasonably fair.

The Antigamer
2010-11-20, 02:42 AM
Remember to specify clearly that you can only use Death Step as a free action once per round (more times at higher levels). By default you can make an infinite number of free actions per round.
OK, he can escape a Forcecage as a a move action at first level. Once he gets his hands on a Ring of X-Ray Vision, he can ignore walls. He can effectively teleport a distance equal to his base speed times the number of uses he has - a bare minimum of 200 feet at 16th level, and probably miles if he's remotely optimized for speed. You need to specifically spell out what he can and cannot pass through with this ability, whether he can move vertically, whether it provokes attacks of opportunity, whether he's affected by walking over caltrops and so on, whether he's affected by ongoing area-of-effect things he passes through, whether it gives the normal movement penalty to his hide and move silent checks, whether he can move through keyholes since he can see through them, etc.

Wow, I had considered none of that. I need to get into specifics about that ability. Thank you for the helpful prompts.


Precision damage in addition to maneuvers is a bit excessive. He basically has a vastly improved version of Spring Attack by 4th level, so every round will consist of using his swift action to get to the opponent, striking, and his move action to get away. Or charging and using his swift to move away, if he's readied a maneuver that works on a charge. It's just adding d6s to whatever strike he chooses to use.
Hmmm, I guess I can see that. I'll leave the precision damage in when I edit the class again in two minutes, but I this makes me think I should remove it, and it may well be removed later.


He cannot run out of readied maneuvers if he's halfway intelligent. He'll be moving at least his speed every round, and so recovering a strike every round. At 8th level and above, he can also use and recover a boost or counter every round. His recovery mechanism needs to have an actual cost if he's going to have more maneuvers known and as many readied as a Warblade does. In fact, forcing him to stand still for a round would be a better recovery mechanism - still better than a Warblade's, since he can use it to full attack, but resembling something balanced.
Forcing him to stand still actually seems like a perfect recovery method, thanks!


Touchsight is extremely powerful. Darkstalker doesn't work on it. the only way to avoid it is being underground, behind total cover, or incorporeal. The closest thing to this power that an official class gets is the Scout, which gets Blindsense 30' at 10th level and Blindsight as its capstone. Don't do this.
Ok, I guess I'll pull it, I hadn't realized it was so over powered as a constant ability.


As written, Improved Death Step is getting to treat a target as flat-footed once per round, plus gaining concealment against readied actions to hit him. The ability to move other beings with you needs far more specifics. Does it require a grapple check? Does it require a touch attack? Is there a size limit on the creatures you can move? Does this take an action, or is it free as part of the death step?
Maybe I should just remove the ability to move others. Either that or specifically state Improved Death Step allows you to move one willing creature, and have a higher level ability that lets you move an unwilling creature(With a saving throw)


Acrobatics is excessive for an 8th-level ability, but not broken. Well, except for near-immunity to falling damage.
Maybe I'll bump it up a level.


Free concealment at 9th-level, ignoring most invisibility-breaking effects at 12th, and free displacement at 19th. Though you have free invisibility (50% concealment) from Improved Death Step a lot of the time anyway.
I think I'll remove the true-seeing clause.


Yeah, drop the called shots.
I will be.


Permanent [Ex] Freedom of Movement is really powerful.
There goes another ability then I guess :-/


Now that you can hover, you can fly indefinitely, though the wording of Death Step already let you fly if you could perch on something after a couple hundred feet, or ended next to a rough surface so you could ignore the falling damage.
It seemed about right to me, that's the level my characters usually obtain an item that grants flight.


Unknown movement... no. Maybe as the capstone, or limited to a small number of rounds per day. But Hide checks are easy enough to optimize that this is pretty egregious at any level.
Hmmm, perhaps rounds per day then. Or move it to 19th level.




What "other penalties"? Does this cancel out penalties to your attack rolls from Bestow Curse and suchlike? Do you mean that you make your full attack routine at your highest attack bonus?

Also, there are waaay to many ways to get immune to fatigue (or get +24 to Fort saves and Steadfast Determination) for the save vs fatigue for a few rounds to be an actual limitation. Automatic fatigue for 1d4 rounds would be reasonably fair.
I worded it poorly, the point was that you could full attack again as normal if you chose to. I'll re-word it.

These were some very helpful comments, thank you!

The Antigamer
2010-11-20, 03:46 AM
Made some changes: Removed the finesse tree, swift strike and its improved abilities, and called shots. Moved around and tweaked some other abilities.

I still need to reword Death Step to take care of unanswered questions, and I'm trying to think of out of combat speed-based abilities I can place in the dead levels. Thoughts?

Proven_Paradox
2010-11-20, 11:21 AM
For a martial adept with maneuvers on par with Warblade , you should have some dead levels. All three of the official martial adepts have loads of dead levels. I suggest just leaving them.

Dead_Jester
2010-11-20, 12:28 PM
For out of combat stuff, you could give bonuses to skills (jump and acrobatics are a given, but also swim and climb).

As for the class as it stands, I believe it is ok, on par with the warblade and the crusader, which is where you should be aiming for (you could still keep a bit of the swift strike, but I'd use the Scout's skirmish progression instead, which also covers the extra defense).

EDIT : As for the progression, I'd put Freedom of Speed one level lower and maybe give 1 or 2 bonus feats, because everybody likes those and they don't really make your character that much stronger (especially since you removed the finesse and weapon group feats, and this class is now feat starved).

Soulblazer87
2010-11-20, 03:07 PM
I can understand what you mean about dead levels; it's something I hate as well, especially since I'm working on an experience-based system for DnD, where instead of needing experience to get a level, you spend experience points to acquire abilities.

I would advise you to look into the Grimoire system in wikia. It should give you a good benchmark to work on. Besides, it's not the individual ability that matters, but rather the collective abilities that change and define a class, so, you may want to give a wide assortment of individually weak features that have a great synergy between them. It would also allow for feats and customization so each player can give them a unique flavor.

On the matter of warblade, I'm working on a revision because, quite frankly, it's an under-estimated class. There's not one class in ToB for warblades, everything's for swordsages. They have no warblade-only feat and even the narrator is a swordsage. So, I'm trying to rebuild it in the Grimoire ideal, but it got a tad too strong. I may end up requesting assistance to tone it down... Heh, imagine that, toning down a fighter class... Where's the world coming to?

The Antigamer
2010-11-20, 05:02 PM
For a martial adept with maneuvers on par with Warblade , you should have some dead levels. All three of the official martial adepts have loads of dead levels. I suggest just leaving them.
Something inside me won't allow me to do that.


For out of combat stuff, you could give bonuses to skills (jump and acrobatics are a given, but also swim and climb).
As for the class as it stands, I believe it is ok, on par with the warblade and the crusader, which is where you should be aiming for (you could still keep a bit of the swift strike, but I'd use the Scout's skirmish progression instead, which also covers the extra defense).
EDIT : As for the progression, I'd put Freedom of Speed one level lower and maybe give 1 or 2 bonus feats, because everybody likes those and they don't really make your character that much stronger (especially since you removed the finesse and weapon group feats, and this class is now feat starved).
The Acrobatics ability already gives those bonuses. Bonus feats might just do it. I don't want to add skirmish again unless multiple people tell me I should, since so many considered it overpowered.


I can understand what you mean about dead levels; it's something I hate as well, especially since I'm working on an experience-based system for DnD, where instead of needing experience to get a level, you spend experience points to acquire abilities.
I would advise you to look into the Grimoire system in wikia. It should give you a good benchmark to work on. Besides, it's not the individual ability that matters, but rather the collective abilities that change and define a class, so, you may want to give a wide assortment of individually weak features that have a great synergy between them. It would also allow for feats and customization so each player can give them a unique flavor.
On the matter of warblade, I'm working on a revision because, quite frankly, it's an under-estimated class. There's not one class in ToB for warblades, everything's for swordsages. They have no warblade-only feat and even the narrator is a swordsage. So, I'm trying to rebuild it in the Grimoire ideal, but it got a tad too strong. I may end up requesting assistance to tone it down... Heh, imagine that, toning down a fighter class... Where's the world coming to?
That system sounds intriguing, I look forward to seeing it. I'll take a look at Grimoire. I would like to have small, synergistic boosts, but nothing is coming to mind :-/

Thanks for the comments! I'll be revising again here shortly.

Fail
2010-11-20, 05:35 PM
Grimoire's (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51681) on the wrong (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51693) side of (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51697) awful. (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51706) (5 links total.) (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51692) Don't deny there may be some idea worth taking.
Disclaimer, for whoever somewhy cares: I wasn't involved in any of that discussion, just recognize good analysis.
Also: everything I talked about previously seems to have been correctly understood, which's why I didn't reply at first.

The Antigamer
2010-11-20, 06:18 PM
Grimoire's (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51681) on the wrong (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51693) side of (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51697) awful. (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51706) (5 links total.) (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51692) Don't deny there may be some idea worth taking.
Disclaimer, for whoever somewhy cares: I wasn't involved in any of that discussion, just recognize good analysis.
Also: everything I talked about previously seems to have been correctly understood, which's why I didn't reply at first.
I didn't see much to take beyond the Take Stock alternate rule.



Changed some more abilities, and editing death step's wording. Thoughts on bonus feats would be most welcome.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-21, 05:37 AM
The point of Grimoire I'm trying to focus on is the fact that almost all classes have filled out class features for each level, along with the fact that they require very little customization to be effective in play. In other words, unlike most classes where you have to dumpster dive for feats, skills and combinations to actually make the fighter DO something, in Grimoire you can just take the class and whatever feats are up to your liking, not what you need.

If you want to make a variant for Tier 2-1, I'd advise taking a peek in Tome rules, also in wikia. Another good example, which fits in your fighter-like class, is Races of War. A sourcebook with almost everything you may want. Almost.

Also, just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not telling you to copy off them, gods no. But, both cases make good points, have good ideas and eventually you can tweak, mix and match things to suit your class. While there is no parthenogenesis, being unique is better than copying. And I believe you can make your class quite unique, even more so than it is now.

Dead_Jester
2010-11-21, 07:12 AM
If you want to make a variant for Tier 2-1, I'd advise taking a peek in Tome rules, also in wikia. Another good example, which fits in your fighter-like class, is Races of War. A sourcebook with almost everything you may want. Almost.

Also, just to avoid misunderstandings, I'm not telling you to copy off them, gods no. But, both cases make good points, have good ideas and eventually you can tweak, mix and match things to suit your class. While there is no parthenogenesis, being unique is better than copying. And I believe you can make your class quite unique, even more so than it is now.

That is all good, but remember that the Tome series (especially Races of War) is mostly an attempt to fix 3.5. In this case, Races of War is an attempt at making melee feel balanced in an relatively optimized tier 1 or 2 environment without maneuvers, which also has the side effects of making them more problematic than standard full-casters for your average party as they, unlike full-casters, cannot decide to simply buff allies or blast instead of winning every fight by themselves.

If you want for information, here's the link from the D&D wiki : Races of War (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29)

Fail
2010-11-21, 10:58 AM
If the worry about Tome warriors is about taking too much attention for themselves, one can make things closer to this (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=24348#24348) (the class is also on dnd-wiki.org - the new location of the stuff that was on Wikia - but I link this one because it includes Frank's original comment on effectiveness).

Pardon the off-topicness, but it's useful to people who might look for ideas from Tome.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-21, 04:14 PM
*Sigh* Once again I am misunderstood.

Yes, I do know in fact that Races of War AND the Tome material are pre-ToB. I assure you I am well aware of that. However, that is, once again, besides the point. The point is to see unique, usefull class features and the synergy between them BEFORE calculating maneuvres and such mutable class abilities. In other words, we're looking at the standard things that ALL swift slayers will get regardless of what flavour choices they may make. Which is why I said to take them with a bit of salt. I hope that now I am understood.

To that end, I also advise limiting the class features as much as possible and giving only the bare basics to the swift slayer. Things like extra speed or iconic abilities. Then you start building on the rest absolutely essential abilities. The gaps could be filled with flavour abilities or feats. It's at least what I do to make underpowered classes. After all, anything that is underpowered can easily be strengthened, while something that is overpowered usually requires a lot more work to weaken it. Case in point: Wizards.

NineThePuma
2010-12-09, 05:35 AM
Having just started browsing this class, I'm impressed. I'll probably want some sort of unarmed ACF, as the Unarmed Strike is the only weapon shared between Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. But it's an interesting class.

I do feel that Death Step could have been handled better, however. It seems to advance at a rather wonky pace. Might I suggest making it a flat "+X to the distance traveled as a 5 foot step" where X equals your class level divided by 4?
That way at level 20, you're moving 30ft as a free action instead of 120 ft in three free actions.

Lix Lorn
2010-12-09, 06:38 AM
I love it. It's the coollest thing I've seen for... hours! :smallsmile:
Teleporting is really strong. I made a gish PrC baseed around flash-steps, and it got SO much critique. Strongest thing I ever made, prolly.

If you're still having power problems, you could just not let it recover during an encounter. Say that it relies on taking out the enemy in the initial assault, and if it fails, its kinda weak.


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered barbarian level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know.
Copypaste error?

Also, the formatting is broke for Swift Appraisal. And can you capitalise Freedom of speed and Unknown movement? It just bugs me.

The Antigamer
2010-12-09, 07:32 PM
I love it. It's the coollest thing I've seen for... hours! :smallsmile:
Teleporting is really strong. I made a gish PrC baseed around flash-steps, and it got SO much critique. Strongest thing I ever made, prolly.

If you're still having power problems, you could just not let it recover during an encounter. Say that it relies on taking out the enemy in the initial assault, and if it fails, its kinda weak.


Copypaste error?

Also, the formatting is broke for Swift Appraisal. And can you capitalise Freedom of speed and Unknown movement? It just bugs me.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be getting back to this class once finals are over, and I have some breathing room.
No recovery during an encounter could make sense, but then they could just take that feat from ToB and recover anyways.
Fixed the copying error, thanks.
Fixed formatting and capitalized for ya.

Lix Lorn
2010-12-10, 04:33 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I'll be getting back to this class once finals are over, and I have some breathing room.
No recovery during an encounter could make sense, but then they could just take that feat from ToB and recover anyways.
Fixed the copying error, thanks.
Fixed formatting and capitalized for ya.
They could? Which feat?
Glad to help and thanks. ^_^

NineThePuma
2010-12-10, 05:11 AM
They could? Which feat?
Glad to help and thanks. ^_^

Adaptive style or some such allows you to reprepare your readied maneuvers as a full round action.

Lix Lorn
2010-12-10, 05:16 AM
So it does. xD

true_shinken
2010-12-11, 10:33 AM
I like the idea, but Death Step is really abuseable and makes the class too good as a dip. It's like a scaling, more flexive Shadow Jaunt. I really really like the idea but this seems too powerful. Maybe you could make so that, at 1st level, you need a full-round action to shadow step and make a single melee attack.

The Antigamer
2010-12-11, 04:19 PM
I like the idea, but Death Step is really abuseable and makes the class too good as a dip. It's like a scaling, more flexive Shadow Jaunt. I really really like the idea but this seems too powerful. Maybe you could make so that, at 1st level, you need a full-round action to shadow step and make a single melee attack.

That's already true.

At first level he may do this once per round, as a move action.
This allows for a single standard action, i.e. attack.

true_shinken
2010-12-16, 08:28 AM
That's already true.

This allows for a single standard action, i.e. attack.

Yes, but then you can use a strike. With my suggestion, you are restricted to a vanilla melee attack.

Also, I believe this class should get a lot less maneuvers/level than it does. The only other ToB class with access to teleportation has the worst bab on the book and only gets it at level 3. If I could play a class with this class features, access to two disciplines and one or two less maneuvers per day I'd already be pretty satisfied.

I really liked this, so I made it an in-depth analysis.



Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)[/CLOSE]
That... seems a little too much. Maybe if you had some specific fluff the bolded skills would be justifiable, but as is, they don't seem to fit. The fluff, at least that in my mind, is that of a martial adept that focuses on speed over anything else. I just don't see the bolded skills adding anything to that.
You might want to add Martial Lore.


Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

I think this is a bit too much. 6 points per level is for classes really focused on skill. The swift slayer is focused on combat. He is trickster warrior, but he is a warrior first. See the swashbuckler and the barbarian - they fit the same archetype and get 4/level.


Maneuvers:
You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, plus one additional of your choice, chosen at first level. He gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.
This I disagree with. See, the class as you put it is simply better than the classes in Tome of Battle. The class features are really really good, the chassis is not so bad (it's a Swordsage with full bab), you gain proficiency with ranged weapons (Warblades don't) and you also get to pick a discipline. This is a choice none of the ToB classes have.
Most homebrewed disciplines include an 'access option' like spending skill points, XP or a feat, so I would leave the Swift Slayer with only Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. Maybe even swap Shadow Hand for Diamond Mind, since it deals more with speed. The Slow Down class feature has a lot in common with Time Stands Still.


Maneuvers Readied:
You can ready all of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. Your ready your maneuvers by meditating for 5 minutes.
This is more Diamond Mind flavour, btw.


You may recover a single expended maneuver by staying in the same space for a round. You may not switch stances or initiate any maneuvers the round you wish to recover a maneuver.
I really like this recovery method, I just thought I'd say that.


Death Step (Ex):
Ah, this is it: the class feature that is the core to the swift slayer class.

The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.
I really like the way you put this. I like how you avoided the Shadow Jaunt text here (as in, teleports that require line of sight and line of effect). This means skills like Climb and Tumble are still important for a Swift Slayer.


This ability uses a move action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. He may not pass through solid matter, or an effect such as Force Wall.
I don't really get this. If he can't go through solid matter, how does he ignore all difficult terrain and obstacles? If you are going for a more mudane 'very fast' thing here, I think you should make so that the Swift Slayer does not ignore obstacles or anything; he needs to circumvent them. Difficult terrain would still allow him to use this ability, he would only do it at half speed (as usual).

This ability does not trigger attacks of opportunity, even if he passes through someone's threatened space.
This I dislike. You just made the Tumble skill useless. Perhaps the Swift Slayer could gain an effect similar to Quicksilver Boots - 20% miss chance on all attacks of opportunity. I wouldn't give this ability at this level, though.

He may not use this ability when grappled, unless he succeeds at an opposed grapple or escape artist check.
You should just say he can't use this while grappled. He needs to escape the grapple to use Death Step and he needs a grapple/escape artist check to do so.



At fourth level he gains an additional use as a swift action, once per round.
See, what I dislike here is that you cramped a lot of power into the first level of Death Step and then only the action you need to perform it increases. Remember that miss chance on attacks of opportunity I mentioned earlier? That would be a nice level to gain it.

At eight level he gains an additional use as a free action, once per round.
Here, things start going crazy. That's too much death steps! This guy is now D&D's Road Runner! Nothing will be as fast as him - he can run as a full-round action to move 4x his speed, then he death steps as a free action for another time his speed and then he death steps as a swift action for another time his speed. This guy just moved 6x his speed (which gets enhancements), 7x if the took the Run feat. If he is a xeph, with xeph celerity and fast movement, his base speed would be 70. That means 490ft without spending any expandable resources. No class can do anything similar - wizards need their higher level spell to cast something that move that far (it moves even farther and has no restrictions, bu that's wizards we are talking about).
So it just seems too much, really. Instead of giving additional death steps, I think you should give additional abilities. Maybe some kind of Hide in Plain Sight while moving, walking over water, that kind of thing.


For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, full attack, then death step up to his base land speed away. If he used a standard action attack instead of a full attack, he could then death step one more time(using his move death step)
Your example already says why this is too much. You can go in, take no attacks of opportunity, hit him with whatever you got best and get out. No actual resource expenses. That's too much. Really.


Trackless Speed (Ex):
A swift slayer leaves no tracks.
You could use the full text of the Trackless Step feature here.

Bonus Feats:
At 2nd level, and every 5 levels thereafter, a swift slayer gains a bonus feat from the following list. He must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Man, that's a bit soon. This class gains better class features than Warblades and they have to wait until 5th level for their first bonus feat...

Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Weapon Finesse.
...and their bonus feat list is a lot worst. See, I wouldn't change your feat list though, because Warblade's bonus feat list is the one that should use some love. If you do use my option of removing maneuvers known/readied and discipline access, I'd add Martial Study/Stance to the bonus feat list.


Fast Movement (Ex):
The swift slayer's speed is supernaturally quick. His land speed increases by +10 feet.
I really think this should be a part of death step. You gain increasingly higher speed.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
(...) Starting at 3rd level(...).

Evasion (Ex):
At 3rd level and higher, (...)
That's a lot of cookies for a single level. You should spread this a little. No full base attack class gains those so fast and no class actually gets uncanny dodge before 4th, IIRC.


Improved Death Step (Ex):
At 7th level the swift slayer's death step becomes even more deadly. Now, the swift slayer does not immediately become visible after making a death step. However, he will still become visible if he attacks a foe, and he becomes visible at the end of his turn (unless he becomes invisible from a different source). This class feature also allows the swift slayer to touch one willing being and move them with him when he death steps.
I think this is too powerful. First, I think hide in plain sight works a lot better, since you have to hide (with a penalty due to movement/attacking) and thus can be detected (and those very fast guys in fiction are always eventually detected). Secondly, I think the swift slayer should have to carry that person and it would to be a light load.


Acrobatics (Ex):
A swift slayer of eighth level has taken his physical fitness to new heights. He gains +5 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks and may use his death step to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if he begins and ends his move on a horizontal surface.
I like the skill bonus. I just think the wall walking is a bit too powerful. It should work more like Up the Walls (the psionic feat), IMHO.


Swift Appraisal(Ex):
The swift slayer add his Intelligence bonus to his Initiative.
You should add the level in which the abilities are gained. A little fluff would be welcome as well.


Blurred Step (Ex):
The swift slayer's sheer speed makes him extremely difficult to track in combat starting at 11th level. On any turn when he uses his death step, the swift slayer's form appears to waver and shift, and he gains 20% concealment as if he was affected by a blur spell.
As I said before, I think it should apply to attacks of opportunity around level 4. During the whole round seems nice enough at level 11.

This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn. In addition, the Improved Death Step's invisibility is now not counteracted by See Invisibility spell, but it is counteracted by a True Seeing spell.At 15th level, the blur effect cannot be counteracted with a true-seeing spell.

I think this is too much. Also if you do change invisibility for hide in plain sight, you don't need this, as divinations can't do squat about Hide.


Gravity Defying Speed (Ex):
At 12th level the swift slayer is no longer bound by gravity. His death step is treated as flight if he wishes, and if he ends movement in the air, he may hover there for two rounds before he starts to fall.
Dunno. This is level apropriate but sounds like too much. I like the flavor, don't get me wrong, but an actual flight speed seems too much, specially if it's unlimited. Levitate as a spell-like ability (triggered by a swift action, even) maybe a number of times per day equal to your Int or Dex modifier would be better, IMHO.


Aggressive Death Step (Ex):
At 14th level, the swift slayer gains the ability to take an unwilling being with him when he death steps if he chooses. He must either be grappling the being, or make a touch attack against it. The being makes a will-saving throw, with a DC equal to 10+1/2 the swift slayer's level+his Dex modifier. If he fails, he is transported with the swift slayer, arriving in a square within 5 feet of where the swift slayer arrives. (If they are grappling, they remain grappling when they arrive)
First, I don't think you should allow it on a touch attack. Too powerful. Also... a will saving throw? I thought this was not a teleport!
Also, I think this should work more like bull rush, except the Swift Slayer can change direction and would gain a bonus based on how much he moved before hitting the victim (say, +1 or +2 per square).


Slow Down
The swift slayer's perception is fast and detail-oriented, to keep up with his break-neck speed.
I think 'neck breaking speed' sounds a lot better. I love this ability, btw.



Gains a number of temporary HP equal to his HD. The use of this ability lasts for three rounds and doesn't stack with temporary HP from any other source or with itself.
Gain +2d6 insight bonus to damage on all attacks next round.
Gain +2 to attack on all attack rolls during the following round.
Gain +2 Dodge bonus to AC during the following round.
If there is an unwanted effect upon him whose duration is measured in rounds, make another saving throw against the effect to remove it if it originally granted a save.

I think you should change 'next round' to 'until the end of the next round'. Slow Down requires no action, only that you don't move (actually, maybe you should require a swift action here - heck, make it a move action, it fits the flavor and you can also change stances) and this would allow you to benefit from it at the same round you use it.
I'd increase the dodge bonus to AC, btw. I just don't see anyone using it as it is.
[QUOTE=The Antigamer;9795352]Freedom of Speed (Ex):
At 17th level, a swift slayer acts as if he is permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
17th level is 17th level so I think this is ok.


Unknown Movement (Ex):
A swift slayer is practically undetectable in his steps. He can't be detected by blindsight, touch sight, or tremor sense unless a successful spot check is made opposed to the swift slayer's hide check.
Why did you even bother with Darkstalker as a bonus feat, then? I think this is unnecessary.


Deadly Speed(Ex):
At 20th level, the swift slayer gains the ability use a burst of superhuman speed to take two turns worth of actions in one round once per combat encounter. Following the use of Deadly Speed, the swift slayer must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 30) or become fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds.
I love it, awesome capstone. I just think consequences should be harsher - I'm thinking Rock Lee here. Maybe ability damage, daze instead (or in addition to) fatigue. Also, I'd make it a Constitution check (DC 20) instead of a Fortitude save... or maybe remove the check.

The Antigamer
2010-12-16, 07:55 PM
Yes, but then you can use a strike. With my suggestion, you are restricted to a vanilla melee attack.
But I'm ok with that, I think using a strike after death stepping is a good feature. However, I may make it so you can't use a strike immediately after death-stepping until later in the class.


Also, I believe this class should get a lot less maneuvers/level than it does. The only other ToB class with access to teleportation has the worst bab on the book and only gets it at level 3. If I could play a class with this class features, access to two disciplines and one or two less maneuvers per day I'd already be pretty satisfied.
Hmmm, I was thinking of making it two disciplines. I'm not sure about the less maneuvers/stances though. Right now, it has the warblade's capacity, but is only able to recover a single maneuver each round, instead of all of them. I'm not really sure that dropping maneuvers known/readied would be all that wise. However, I could make maneuvers readied drop a tad, and then say that he's based on swiftly taking care of business, and prolonged battles aren't his forte. However, I like the versatility of multiple readied maneuvers. With lower maneuvers per encounter, everyone defaults to the only ever using the highest damaging maneuver every time.


I really liked this, so I made it an in-depth analysis.
Thanks, I'll dive right into it, before I start editing the class again. :smallsmile:


Skills
Yes, skills need adjustment, I haven't changed them since the first concept. My problem is, I've always thought that all classes should get more skills than they do, but I need to pare it down for public usage. Also, smacking my forehead at forgetting martial lore.


This I disagree with. See, the class as you put it is simply better than the classes in Tome of Battle. The class features are really really good, the chassis is not so bad (it's a Swordsage with full bab), you gain proficiency with ranged weapons (Warblades don't) and you also get to pick a discipline. This is a choice none of the ToB classes have.
Most homebrewed disciplines include an 'access option' like spending skill points, XP or a feat, so I would leave the Swift Slayer with only Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw. Maybe even swap Shadow Hand for Diamond Mind, since it deals more with speed. The Slow Down class feature has a lot in common with Time Stands Still.
I think I will have them only get two disciplines, but make them both be player's choice. I really like allowing for customization, and I think highly of a lot of homebrew disciplines. The chasis is not a swordsage, they get the same maneuvers known/readied as a warblade :smallconfused:
I usually allow ToB classes to trade out a discipline for free anyway.


This is more Diamond Mind flavour, btw.
The meditating for five minutes thing is a placeholder for now, I'm trying to figure out exactly how I want them to prepare the maneuvers. The meditation is based on the same reasoning as their maneuver recovery method.


I really like this recovery method, I just thought I'd say that.
Yeah, when SurleySeraph suggested it, I was like, "Yes, that!"


I really like the way you put this. I like how you avoided the Shadow Jaunt text here (as in, teleports that require line of sight and line of effect). This means skills like Climb and Tumble are still important for a Swift Slayer.
Yes, he actually moves over the distance, he does not teleport. He's just able to avoid certain obstacles, like rough terrain or pits, kind've like how the roadrunner manages to speed over cliffs :smallsmile:


I don't really get this. If he can't go through solid matter, how does he ignore all difficult terrain and obstacles? If you are going for a more mudane 'very fast' thing here, I think you should make so that the Swift Slayer does not ignore obstacles or anything; he needs to circumvent them. Difficult terrain would still allow him to use this ability, he would only do it at half speed (as usual).
It's impossible for him to pass through solid matter because he can't fool reality quite that much.


This I dislike. You just made the Tumble skill useless. Perhaps the Swift Slayer could gain an effect similar to Quicksilver Boots - 20% miss chance on all attacks of opportunity. I wouldn't give this ability at this level, though.
You know, this is a true thing that I hadn't thought of, thank you. I believe I'll implement something like you suggested.


You should just say he can't use this while grappled. He needs to escape the grapple to use Death Step and he needs a grapple/escape artist check to do so.
I'll change the wording.


See, what I dislike here is that you cramped a lot of power into the first level of Death Step and then only the action you need to perform it increases. Remember that miss chance on attacks of opportunity I mentioned earlier? That would be a nice level to gain it.
Hmmm, I think I see what you're getting at here.


Here, things start going crazy. That's too much death steps! This guy is now D&D's Road Runner! Nothing will be as fast as him - he can run as a full-round action to move 4x his speed, then he death steps as a free action for another time his speed and then he death steps as a swift action for another time his speed. This guy just moved 6x his speed (which gets enhancements), 7x if the took the Run feat. If he is a xeph, with xeph celerity and fast movement, his base speed would be 70. That means 490ft without spending any expandable resources. No class can do anything similar - wizards need their higher level spell to cast something that move that far (it moves even farther and has no restrictions, bu that's wizards we are talking about).
So it just seems too much, really. Instead of giving additional death steps, I think you should give additional abilities. Maybe some kind of Hide in Plain Sight while moving, walking over water, that kind of thing.
This has given me things to think about. Death Step will be adjusted, and you can see how the new ability compares.


You could use the full text of the Trackless Step feature here.
I will do so.


Man, that's a bit soon. This class gains better class features than Warblades and they have to wait until 5th level for their first bonus feat...
I think I'm going to move around bonus feats a bit, as I adjust Death Step.


...and their bonus feat list is a lot worst. See, I wouldn't change your feat list though, because Warblade's bonus feat list is the one that should use some love. If you do use my option of removing maneuvers known/readied and discipline access, I'd add Martial Study/Stance to the bonus feat list.
The bonus feat least was just thrown together, and I'll adjust it in the next revision.


I really think this should be a part of death step. You gain increasingly higher speed.
This is a good point.


That's a lot of cookies for a single level. You should spread this a little. No full base attack class gains those so fast and no class actually gets uncanny dodge before 4th, IIRC.
Damn, I didn't change the wording. They're correct on the table, Uncanny Dodge at 4th, Evasion at 5th.


I think this is too powerful. First, I think hide in plain sight works a lot better, since you have to hide (with a penalty due to movement/attacking) and thus can be detected (and those very fast guys in fiction are always eventually detected). Secondly, I think the swift slayer should have to carry that person and it would to be a light load.
I think I'll have it be Hide in Plain Sight, and then later have it change to invisibility. I don't think I'll change it to have to carry the person, allowing for a quick transportation of someone in danger. I may make it so that he can only Death Step with a person once per round, however.


I like the skill bonus. I just think the wall walking is a bit too powerful. It should work more like Up the Walls (the psionic feat), IMHO.
Isn't it already basically Up the Walls? :smallconfused:


You should add the level in which the abilities are gained. A little fluff would be welcome as well.
Adding levels to each class I'll do in the next edit, fluff will come shortly after the nest revision.


I think this is too much. Also if you do change invisibility for hide in plain sight, you don't need this, as divinations can't do squat about Hide.
This is true. Hmmm, maybe I'll give Hide bonuses at this level instead.


Dunno. This is level apropriate but sounds like too much. I like the flavor, don't get me wrong, but an actual flight speed seems too much, specially if it's unlimited. Levitate as a spell-like ability (triggered by a swift action, even) maybe a number of times per day equal to your Int or Dex modifier would be better, IMHO.
They're going to get flight as an item in that case, which would defeat the ability. We'll see how balanced you think it is after the Death Step revision.


First, I don't think you should allow it on a touch attack. Too powerful. Also... a will saving throw? I thought this was not a teleport!
Also, I think this should work more like bull rush, except the Swift Slayer can change direction and would gain a bonus based on how much he moved before hitting the victim (say, +1 or +2 per square).
*nods* Good point, I was just trying to come up with a flavorful ability.


I think you should change 'next round' to 'until the end of the next round'. Slow Down requires no action, only that you don't move (actually, maybe you should require a swift action here - heck, make it a move action, it fits the flavor and you can also change stances) and this would allow you to benefit from it at the same round you use it.
I'd increase the dodge bonus to AC, btw. I just don't see anyone using it as it is.
Changing it to a move action actually sounds like a good idea, as does 'until the end of the next round'. Duly noted on increasing it.


17th level is 17th level so I think this is ok.
Yeah, i think it fits, too


Why did you even bother with Darkstalker as a bonus feat, then? I think this is unnecessary.
True point. I'll consider it in the edit.


I love it, awesome capstone. I just think consequences should be harsher - I'm thinking Rock Lee here. Maybe ability damage, daze instead (or in addition to) fatigue. Also, I'd make it a Constitution check (DC 20) instead of a Fortitude save... or maybe remove the check.
Glad you like it. I'm not sure about the higher penalties, but a constitution check might be more apt, and harder to pass.



Thanks for such an in-depth review, I'll consider your words very carefully as I edit later tonight.

The Antigamer
2010-12-28, 04:57 AM
Previous Version
This class is based on Zenanarchist's Hunter-Slayer class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170708) that he didn't get a chance to complete. I really liked Death Step as a feature, and I wanted to make a class based around speed. This is my first homebrew base class.



The Swift Slayer
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Death Step, Maneuvers|3|3|1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Trackless Speed, Bonus feat|4|3|1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement|5|3|1

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge|5|4|2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Evasion|6|4|2

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Improved Death Step|6|4|2

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Bonus Feat|7|4|2

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Acrobatics|7|5|2

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|8|5|2

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Swift Appraisal|8|5|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Blurred Step|9|5|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Gravity Defying Speed|9|5|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Bonus Feat|10|6|3

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Aggressive Death Step|10|6|3

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Improved Evasion|11|6|3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Slow Down|11|6|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Freedom of Speed|12|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Bonus Feat|12|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Unknown Movement|13|7|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Speed|14|7|4

[/table]
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features

Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
The swift slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

Maneuvers:
You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw, plus one additional of your choice, chosen at first level. He gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.

Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Maneuvers Readied below). A maneuver usable by a swift slayer is considered an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.

You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the table above. You must meet a maneuverís prerequisite in order to learn it. See the table on page 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered swift slayer level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. In effect, you can lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can chose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with a maneuver of the same level. For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-level maneuver for a maneuver of 5th-level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisite of the new maneuver. You can swap only a single maneuver at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied:
You can ready all of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. Your ready your maneuvers by meditating for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to meditate again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes in meditation, you can change your readied maneuvers.

You begin an encounter with all of your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).

You may recover a single expended maneuver by staying in the same space for a round. You may not switch stances or initiate any maneuvers the round you wish to recover a maneuver.

Stances Known:
You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline you have access to. At 5th, 10th, and 16th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in the stance description.

Unlike with new maneuvers you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

Death Step (Ex):
The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.

His primal speed carries him from one spot to another in the blink of an eye, ignoring nearly all obstacles and pitfalls in their way. This ability uses a move action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. He may not pass through solid matter, or an effect such as Force Wall. The swift slayer still actually moves through the area, so area effect spells, such as cloud kill, effect him as he passes through them. This ability does not trigger attacks of opportunity, even if he passes through someone's threatened space. He may not use this ability when grappled, unless he succeeds at an opposed grapple or escape artist check.
At first level he may do this once per round, as a move action.
At fourth level he gains an additional use as a swift action, once per round.
At eight level he gains an additional use as a free action, once per round.
At twelfth level he gains an additional use as a free action, once per round.
Finally, at 16th level, gains one more additional use as a free action, once per round, for a total of 3 free Death Steps per round, one swift Death Step per round, and one move action Death Step per round.
The swift slayer must still make move silently and hide checks while utilising this method of movement, even at later levels. He is not teleporting, merely moving faster than the eye can follow.
The swift slayer may not perform this act of speed if he is wearing greater than light armor.

For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, full attack, then death step up to his base land speed away. If he used a standard action attack instead of a full attack, he could then death step one more time(using his move death step)

Trackless Speed (Ex):
A swift slayer leaves no tracks.

Bonus Feats:
At 2nd level, and every 5 levels thereafter, a swift slayer gains a bonus feat from the following list. He must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Weapon Finesse.

Fast Movement (Ex):
The swift slayer's speed is supernaturally quick. His land speed increases by +10 feet.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The swift slayer has keen perception, allowing him to react swiftly to sudden danger. Starting at 3rd level, he retains his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) even when caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the swift slayer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Evasion (Ex):
At 3rd level and higher, a swift slayer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the swift slayer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Death Step (Ex):
At 7th level the swift slayer's death step becomes even more deadly. Now, the swift slayer does not immediately become visible after making a death step. However, he will still become visible if he attacks a foe, and he becomes visible at the end of his turn (unless he becomes invisible from a different source). This class feature also allows the swift slayer to touch one willing being and move them with him when he death steps.

Acrobatics (Ex):
A swift slayer of eighth level has taken his physical fitness to new heights. He gains +5 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks and may use his death step to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if he begins and ends his move on a horizontal surface. Treat the wall as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring his movement. Passing from floor to wall or wall to floor costs no movement; he can change surfaces freely. If he ends his movement on a vertical surface, he must make a climb check to keep from sliding down. Additionally, any time the swift slayer falls and is within five feet of an uneven surface (cave wall, tree, broken brick wall) may slow his fall so that he takes 1 less die of falling damage for every two class levels of swift slayer he has.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): The swift slayerís reaction time improves further, allowing him to evade attacks normally even when being attacked by multiple assailants. At level 8, the swift slayer can no longer be flanked. The swift slayer cannot be sneak attacked unless the attacker has four more effective rogue levels than the swift slayer has effective swift slayer levels. If the swift slayer has uncanny dodge from a different class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum effective rogue level an attacker must have to flank the character.

Swift Appraisal(Ex):
The swift slayer add his Intelligence bonus to his Initiative.

Blurred Step (Ex):
The swift slayer's sheer speed makes him extremely difficult to track in combat starting at 11th level. On any turn when he uses his death step, the swift slayer's form appears to waver and shift, and he gains 20% concealment as if he was affected by a blur spell. This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn. In addition, the Improved Death Step's invisibility is now not counteracted by See Invisibility spell, but it is counteracted by a True Seeing spell.
At 15th level, the blur effect cannot be counteracted with a true-seeing spell.

Gravity Defying Speed (Ex):
At 12th level the swift slayer is no longer bound by gravity. His death step is treated as flight if he wishes, and if he ends movement in the air, he may hover there for two rounds before he starts to fall.

Aggressive Death Step (Ex):
At 14th level, the swift slayer gains the ability to take an unwilling being with him when he death steps if he chooses. He must either be grappling the being, or make a touch attack against it. The being makes a will-saving throw, with a DC equal to 10+1/2 the swift slayer's level+his Dex modifier. If he fails, he is transported with the swift slayer, arriving in a square within 5 feet of where the swift slayer arrives. (If they are grappling, they remain grappling when they arrive)

Improved Evasion (Ex):
This ability works like evasion, except that while the swift slayer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Slow Down
The swift slayer's perception is fast and detail-oriented, to keep up with his break-neck speed. When he slows down, however, his senses do not, making him quick at sizing up situations. Once per encounter, when the swift slayer stays in the same space for a round, he may take stock of his surroundings as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunities. He gains one of the following benefits:

Gains a number of temporary HP equal to his HD. The use of this ability lasts for three rounds and doesn't stack with temporary HP from any other source or with itself.
Gain +2d6 insight bonus to damage on all attacks next round.
Gain +2 to attack on all attack rolls during the following round.
Gain +2 Dodge bonus to AC during the following round.
If there is an unwanted effect upon him whose duration is measured in rounds, make another saving throw against the effect to remove it if it originally granted a save.


Freedom of Speed (Ex):
At 17th level, a swift slayer acts as if he is permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.

Unknown Movement (Ex):
A swift slayer is practically undetectable in his steps. He can't be detected by blindsight, touch sight, or tremor sense unless a successful spot check is made opposed to the swift slayer's hide check.

Deadly Speed(Ex):
At 20th level, the swift slayer gains the ability use a burst of superhuman speed to take two turns worth of actions in one round once per combat encounter. Following the use of Deadly Speed, the swift slayer must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 30) or become fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds.

Previous versions and changelog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9799843&postcount=9)

Edited in the new class, this post is for keeping track of changes.
This post took a long time, holidays got the best of me, but now I'm back in business.
I edited the skills, changed death step, and tweaked class features. Traded invisibility for hide in plain site. I think it's looking pretty good.
I would like feedback on Slow Down's bonuses, Ethereal Step, and Aggressive Step primarily, as well as any other criticisms, concerns, or compliments :smallwink:

Cheesy74
2011-01-10, 11:23 AM
Alrighty.



The Swift Slayer
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known

1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Death Step, Maneuvers|3|3|1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Trackless Speed, Bonus feat|4|3|1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Fast Movement|5|3|1

4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Uncanny Dodge, Blurred Step, Death Step(Swift)|5|4|2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Evasion|6|4|2

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Hidden Step|6|4|2

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|Bonus Feat, Friendly Step|7|4|2

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Acrobatics, Death Step(Free, 2/round)|7|5|2

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Uncanny Dodge|8|5|2

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Swift Appraisal|8|5|3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Improved Blurred Step|9|5|3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Gravity Defying Step, Death Step(3/round)|9|5|3

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Bonus Feat|10|6|3

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Aggressive Step|10|6|3

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Improved Evasion|11|6|3

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Slow Down, Death Step(4/round)|11|6|4

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Freedom of Speed|12|6|4

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Bonus Feat|12|6|4

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Ethereal Step|13|7|4

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Deadly Speed|14|7|4

[/table]
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (One of your choice) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sleight Of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) ◊ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Basic mechanics look alright, though full BAB seems a bit much for a class more focused around movement.



[SPOILER]Weapon and Armor proficiencies:
The swift slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

Seems fine. Maybe an exotic weapon of their choice?



Maneuvers:
You begin your career with knowledge of three martial maneuvers. A Swift Slayer chooses his maneuvers from two disciplines chosen at first level. He gains the key skill of his chosen discipline as a class skill if he does not have it already.

<standard maneuver rules cut>

Maneuvers Readied:
You can ready all of your maneuvers known at 1st level, and as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers, you are able to ready more, but you must still choose which maneuvers to ready. Your ready your maneuvers by remaining motionless for 5 minutes. The maneuvers you choose remain readied until you decide to meditate again and change them. You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready your maneuvers; any time you spend 5 minutes not moving, you can change your readied maneuvers.

You begin an encounter with all of your readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them. When you initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your readied maneuvers can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).

You may recover a single expended maneuver by staying in the same space for a round. You may not switch stances or initiate any maneuvers the round you wish to recover a maneuver. I like the readying mechanic, but...I'm not sure about the recovery. One the one hand it seems kind of weak. Swordsage-esque, almost. On the other hand, you can still attack while you're doing this, you just can't move. I suppose it's all right, it just seems odd. The two disciplines thing is really, really limiting. I'd recommend allowing more disciplines from a limited list instead. Also, see my bit at the end about restructuring maneuvers.



Stances Known:
You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline you have access to. At 5th, 10th, and 16th level, you can choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless noted otherwise in the stance description.

Unlike with new maneuvers you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

Sounds good to me.



Death Step (Ex):
The swift slayer has disassociated his movements so much from reality that existance just barely manages to acknowledge that he has moved at all.

His primal speed carries him from one spot to another in the blink of an eye, ignoring nearly all obstacles and pitfalls in their way. This ability uses a move action, and is almost exactly similar to regular movement except that he may ignore all difficult terrain and any obstacles so long as he has line of sight to the area. He may not pass through solid matter, or an effect such as Force Wall. The swift slayer still actually moves through the area, so area effect spells, such as cloud kill, effect him as he passes through them. This ability does trigger attacks of opportunity, if he passes through someone's threatened space. He may not use this ability when grappled.
At first level he may do this once per round, as a move action.
At fourth level it only takes a swift action to Death Step
At eight level it only takes a free action to Death Step, and from now on he treats his base land speed as 10' higher for the purpose of Death Step.
At twelfth level he gains an additional use as a free action, once per round.
Finally, at 16th level, gains one more additional use as a free action, once per round, for a total of 3 free Death Steps per round.
The swift slayer must still make move silently and hide checks while utilising this method of movement, even at later levels. He is not teleporting, merely moving faster than the eye can follow.
The swift slayer may not perform this act of speed if he is wearing greater than light armor.

For example if a swift slayer of eighth level was twenty feet away from an opponent who was over a ledge ten feet wide, he may death step to his opponent, and full attack.
So he can move over obstacles and ignore difficult terrain, using swift actions to do it at later levels. Seems like a good tradeoff, though that's an impressive amount of movement at higher levels. Can he do this between attacks in a full attack like you can with 5-foot steps? If so you may want to tone down the movement a bit. Otherwise a very fun ability. It should probably be supernatural, though. It doesn't seem like something you could do from pure skill.


Trackless Speed (Ex):
Starting at 2nd level, a Swift leaves no trail and cannot be tracked. He may choose to leave a trail if so desired, but he must move at 50% speed.
Sounds fine.


Bonus Feats:
At 2nd level, and every 5 levels thereafter, a swift slayer gains a bonus feat from the following list. He must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Weapon Finesse. Sounds fine, though Darkstalker's a pretty powerful feat to be putting in here for free.



Fast Movement (Ex):
The swift slayer's speed is supernaturally quick. At third level his base land speed increases by +10 feet. Give the bonus a type (enhancement, preferably). Otherwise fits perfectly with the class.



Uncanny Dodge (Ex):
The swift slayer has keen perception, allowing him to react swiftly to sudden danger. Starting at 4th level, he retains his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) even when caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If the swift slayer already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. Expected and good.



Blurred Step (Ex):
Starting at 4th level, the swift slayer's form becomes a blurred shape when he death steps. He gains a 20% miss chance to attacks of opportunity that would be triggered by death step movement. A good situational ability.



Evasion (Ex):
At 5th level and higher, a swift slayer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the swift slayer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of evasion.Good stuff.



Hidden Step (Ex):
At 6th level the swift slayer's movement is so quick he becomes practically invisible. A swift slayer gains hide in plain sight (can use the Hide skill even while being observed) when he is Death Stepping, and for one round after a Death Step, or until the slayer attacks. Not sure how I feel about this. HiPS is powerful, even situationally like that. I'd recommend taking a second look at this.



Friendly Step (Ex);
At 7th level, a swift slayer may take a willing being with him when he death steps.This should be fine.



Acrobatics (Ex):
A swift slayer of eighth level has taken his physical fitness to new heights. He gains +5 bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks and may use his death step to traverse a wall or other relatively smooth vertical surface if he begins and ends his move on a horizontal surface. Treat the wall as a normal floor for the purpose of measuring his movement. Passing from floor to wall or wall to floor costs no movement; he can change surfaces freely. If he ends his movement on a vertical surface, he must make a climb check to keep from sliding down. Additionally, any time the swift slayer falls and is within five feet of an uneven surface (cave wall, tree, broken brick wall) may slow his fall so that he takes 1 less die of falling damage for every two class levels of swift slayer he has.Getting pretty parkour-esque at this point, but alright. As long as it doesn't extend to ceilings.



Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 9th level, the swift slayerís reaction time improves further, allowing him to evade attacks normally even when being attacked by multiple assailants. At level 8, the swift slayer can no longer be flanked. The swift slayer cannot be sneak attacked unless the attacker has four more effective rogue levels than the swift slayer has effective swift slayer levels. If the swift slayer has uncanny dodge from a different class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum effective rogue level an attacker must have to flank the character.Good.



Swift Appraisal(Ex):
Starting at 10th level, the swift slayer add his Intelligence bonus to his Initiative.Haven't seen int used for this class anywhere else. This seems kind of out of the blue, mechanics-wise.



Improved Blurred Step (Ex):
The swift slayer's sheer speed makes him extremely difficult to track in combat starting at 11th level. On any turn when he uses his death step, the swift slayer's form appears to waver and shift, and he gains 20% concealment as if he was affected by a blur spell. This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn. Since no sane swift slayer would go a turn without using death step (except for maneuver recovery), this is essentially permanent in-combat concealment. That's pretty strong for a frontline melee character, but considering he can only use light armor, it balances out.



Gravity Defying Step (Ex):
At 12th level the swift slayer is no longer bound by gravity. His death step is treated as flight if he wishes, and if he ends movement in the air, he may hover there until the end of his next turn before he starts to fall. I'd make him start falling at the start of his next turn if he doesn't death step. Continual movement is fine, but I can't envision a frontline melee character shooting through the air like this and attacking and the like.



Aggressive Step (Ex):
At 14th level, the swift slayer is able to transfer his speed to an unwilling opponent. If he death steps to a square adjacent to an enemy, he may make a special bull rush attempt as a standard action. He adds 2 to his opposed strength check, and, in addition, may forgoe any number of death steps he has remaining in the round; he gains an additional +1 to his check for every 5' of death step forgone in this manner. He does not need to move with his opponent to continue pushing him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which his check result is greater than the defenderís check result, and the opponent can exceed his normal movement limit. So he gains the ability to manipulate his foes. At this level that should be just fine.


Improved Evasion (Ex):
At 15th level, the swift slayer's reflexes have become superhuman. This ability works like evasion, except that while the swift slayer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless swift slayer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.I think this should come into play at a higher level. Improved evasion is really strong. >>



Slow Down (Ex):
The swift slayer's perception is fast and detail-oriented, to keep up with his neck-breaking speed. When he slows down, however, his senses do not, making him quick at sizing up situations. Starting at 16th level, once per encounter, when the swift slayer stays in the same space for a round, he may take stock of his surroundings as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunities. He gains one of the following benefits:

Gains a number of temporary HP equal to his HD. The use of this ability lasts for three rounds and doesn't stack with temporary HP from any other source or with itself.
Gain +3d6 insight bonus to damage on all attacks until the end of the next round.
Gain +6 to attack on all attack rolls until the end of the round.
Gain +9 Dodge bonus to AC during the following until the end of the round.
If there is an unwanted effect upon him whose duration is measured in rounds, make another saving throw against the effect to remove it if it originally granted a save.
Significantly decrease the dodge bonus. +4 or +5, preferably. I'd also move the attack bonus down to +4 or so. I'm also not sure how he gets a save against an effect from "sizing things up". That seems odd.



Freedom of Speed (Ex):
At 17th level, a swift slayer acts as if he is permanently under the effect of a freedom of movement spell.
Pretty standard fare at this level.



Ethereal Step (Ex):
At 19th level, the Swift Slayer's speed breaks through reality. Whenever he death steps, he may act as if under the effects of an etheral jaunt spell, except that he moves at full speed. Pretty powerful, but good for level 19. This should absolutely, definitely, certainly be supernatural, though. It's almost the definition of what supernatural is.



Deadly Speed(Ex):
At 20th level, the swift slayer gains the ability use a burst of superhuman speed to take two turns worth of actions in one round once per combat encounter. Following the use of Deadly Speed, the swift slayer must succeed a constitution save (DC 25) or become fatigued for 1d4+1 rounds. I like this capstone. Doubling your actions is good stuff.

Overall, I like the class. It's got maneuvers (which are always fun) and a lot of powerful abilities. The issue I find is that its maneuvers don't really add a lot except power. They seem tacked on. This class would be a solid low T3 without maneuvers, but is bordering on T2 with them. Consider sharply reducing the number of maneuvers available (and maneuvers you can ready) but giving them a stronger recharge mechanic (maybe close to a warblade's) to make them more supplementary to the class's very powerful motion and combat abilities. Its Death Step ability should feel like it's the focus of its combat power rather than a big pile of maneuvers.

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-10, 01:31 PM
Overall, I like the class. It's got maneuvers (which are always fun) and a lot of powerful abilities. The issue I find is that its maneuvers don't really add a lot except power. They seem tacked on. This class would be a solid low T3 without maneuvers, but is bordering on T2 with them. Consider sharply reducing the number of maneuvers available (and maneuvers you can ready) but giving them a stronger recharge mechanic (maybe close to a warblade's) to make them more supplementary to the class's very powerful motion and combat abilities. Its Death Step ability should feel like it's the focus of its combat power rather than a big pile of maneuvers.

Hmm, I don't quite agree here. T2 is supposed to be classes with abilities that are gamebreaking, as in chain gating, infinite PP and similar stuff. Adding maneuvers don't add such things (except IHS, under a generous interpretation, but considering the Warblade is T3, I don't think so.), so it's still a T3. A T3 with more power and flexibility, but still a T3.

The Antigamer
2011-01-10, 02:48 PM
Thanks for the review Cheesey!


Basic mechanics look alright, though full BAB seems a bit much for a class more focused around movement.
Yes, I've been debating that. I believe I will bring the BAB down to 3/4.


Seems fine. Maybe an exotic weapon of their choice?
I guess I could do that. For some reason several DM's I've played with don't like classes that give you EWP for free though. I'm not sure why.


I like the readying mechanic, but...I'm not sure about the recovery. One the one hand it seems kind of weak. Swordsage-esque, almost. On the other hand, you can still attack while you're doing this, you just can't move. I suppose it's all right, it just seems odd. The two disciplines thing is really, really limiting. I'd recommend allowing more disciplines from a limited list instead. Also, see my bit at the end about restructuring maneuvers.
I think it's more powerful than a swordsage's recovery method, since you can still attack, but no movement means no concealment, no flying, no HiPS, etc. People were upset that I had three disciplines for it to chose from, so I bumped it down to two.


So he can move over obstacles and ignore difficult terrain, using swift actions to do it at later levels. Seems like a good tradeoff, though that's an impressive amount of movement at higher levels. Can he do this between attacks in a full attack like you can with 5-foot steps? If so you may want to tone down the movement a bit. Otherwise a very fun ability. It should probably be supernatural, though. It doesn't seem like something you could do from pure skill.
He can death step 150', if he had 30' to start with, at level 16. I'm not too worried by this, since many characters at that level or a bit higher are picking up fly speeds of 180'. Yes, once it's a free action he can do it between attacks. How and why do you think that should be toned down?


Sounds fine, though Darkstalker's a pretty powerful feat to be putting in here for free.
Is it really? I can remove it if so. I've never considered it all that powerful.


Give the bonus a type (enhancement, preferably). Otherwise fits perfectly with the class.
Thanks for pointing that out, I'll add it.


Not sure how I feel about this. HiPS is powerful, even situationally like that. I'd recommend taking a second look at this.
I'm fairly comfortable with this. It was brief invisibility, but it was commented the HiPS would be better. Would you feel more positively about it if I did bump BAB down to 3/4?


Getting pretty parkour-esque at this point, but alright. As long as it doesn't extend to ceilings.
Well, that's kind've what I'm aiming for :smalltongue:


Haven't seen int used for this class anywhere else. This seems kind of out of the blue, mechanics-wise.
I guess that's true, it's a holdover from an earlier rendition of the class. I can try to find something else for there. Maybe 1.5 dex to initiative instead of just dex.


I'd make him start falling at the start of his next turn if he doesn't death step. Continual movement is fine, but I can't envision a frontline melee character shooting through the air like this and attacking and the like.
I tried it that way first actually, but the wording came out very ugly. This essentially does the same thing, but I'll see if I can get that previous wording fixed up.


I think this should come into play at a higher level. Improved evasion is really strong. >>
Alright, I'll switch it with Slow Down


Significantly decrease the dodge bonus. +4 or +5, preferably. I'd also move the attack bonus down to +4 or so. I'm also not sure how he gets a save against an effect from "sizing things up". That seems odd.
I can move it down, that was my first stab at the ability at so high a level. Since it's only usable once per encounter, I just want to make it worth using. I think I need to add a clause that says you can't recover maneuvers on the round you use this ability though. The save against an effect is fro his metabolism concentrating on the effect, if it's physical, or his thoughts racing to shake off a mental effect.



Pretty powerful, but good for level 19. This should absolutely, definitely, certainly be supernatural, though. It's almost the definition of what supernatural is.
Ok, I'll change it.



Overall, I like the class. It's got maneuvers (which are always fun) and a lot of powerful abilities. The issue I find is that its maneuvers don't really add a lot except power. They seem tacked on. This class would be a solid low T3 without maneuvers, but is bordering on T2 with them. Consider sharply reducing the number of maneuvers available (and maneuvers you can ready) but giving them a stronger recharge mechanic (maybe close to a warblade's) to make them more supplementary to the class's very powerful motion and combat abilities. Its Death Step ability should feel like it's the focus of its combat power rather than a big pile of maneuvers.
I'm not sure if it's a T2 class. When it comes down to it, the main thing it can do to an enemy is attack/maneuvers, like a T3 warblade. Faster movement and the other stuff adds some power, sure, but it's no sorcerer or psion.



Hmm, I don't quite agree here. T2 is supposed to be classes with abilities that are gamebreaking, as in chain gating, infinite PP and similar stuff. Adding maneuvers don't add such things (except IHS, under a generous interpretation, but considering the Warblade is T3, I don't think so.), so it's still a T3. A T3 with more power and flexibility, but still a T3.

Yes, like he said.

Cheesy74
2011-01-10, 05:52 PM
Yeah, I misused that analogy a bit. I'm aware of the tier system, but...well, I don't know. I feel like the class shouldn't be just another heavy maneuver-using class. Maneuvers feel better to me as an auxiliary. It's not great reasoning, but my gut hasn't steered me wrong in the past.

EDIT: I can phrase this a lot better, sorry. Basically, don't disregard what I'm saying just because of one tiny slip-up in language.

The Antigamer
2011-01-11, 05:49 AM
Yeah, I misused that analogy a bit. I'm aware of the tier system, but...well, I don't know. I feel like the class shouldn't be just another heavy maneuver-using class. Maneuvers feel better to me as an auxiliary. It's not great reasoning, but my gut hasn't steered me wrong in the past.

EDIT: I can phrase this a lot better, sorry. Basically, don't disregard what I'm saying just because of one tiny slip-up in language.

Don't worry, I'm not disregarding anything :smallsmile:
My problem is, everyone already thought Death Step was way to powerful. Continually improving it is out. And maneuvers are the best way I know to make melee-based characters stand on their own two feet.

NineThePuma
2011-01-11, 06:29 AM
Try some precision damage. Gestalt this with Scout for a slightly rapetastic insanity.

Alternatively, define which two schools you have (Desert Wind x Shadow Hand seem appropriate).

The Antigamer
2011-01-11, 04:49 PM
Try some precision damage. Gestalt this with Scout for a slightly rapetastic insanity.

Alternatively, define which two schools you have (Desert Wind x Shadow Hand seem appropriate).

Funny thing is, I had precision damage at first, and it was decided that maneuvers would be better :smalltongue:

I don't define the schools because I love me some homebrewed disciplines, and it's the main way for individual swift slayers to differentiate themselves in style. I guess I probably should though.

drakir_nosslin
2011-01-11, 05:28 PM
What you could do is decide one and leave the other open, or give a list to choose from.

The Antigamer
2011-01-11, 05:45 PM
What you could do is decide one and leave the other open, or give a list to choose from.

I was going to go with the list option, yes :smallsmile:
I'll trawl through the Age of Warriors thread for good disciplines later tonight.