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Dire Moose
2010-11-19, 05:24 PM
To start: My current campaign is coming to a close as I stand ready to graduate college. Upon entering graduate school, I intend to start the same campaign over with a different group, while fixing mistakes that have come about along the way.

In response to the threads about how non-casters ultimately lose out to casters in terms of power and optimization, I was going to run my next campaign by evening out the balance. I figured that nerfing the casters would be one really good way of driving people away from the gaming table, so I thought I'd work on the other end of things.

Namely, I am attempting to find ways of bringin non-casters onto equal footing with casters. A quick solution to this was to simply double up on feats: fighters get a bonus feat at every level, barbarians get fighter bonus feats every other level, and rogues get a skill-related bonus feat every other level (also included would be things like Dodge, Weapon Finesse, and Combat Reflexes as these would suit rogues pretty well).

Non-casters could also receive upgraded HD or skill points, or as another alternative, AoOs for bull rushing/disarming/etc. could be eliminated and all characters treated as though they had the requisite feats. Obviously, I'm not going to blend all these into one, but I do know something needs to be improved.

One thing I would do, however, is allow Monks to apply WIS instead of STR to their attack rolls in order to get rid of the MADness currently holding them back.

I'd like input on what would be a good idea and what would be unbalanced. Another thing to consider is that I've never had any issues with druids or clerics. Both of these classes have remained pretty well-balanced in the campaign despite horror stories of CoDzilla destroying campaigns. The wizard, however, is causing things to go horrendously out of control to the extent that he Flesh to Stoned a CR 15 dragon in one hit (thanks to buying a ton of INT-boosting items). Party was level 10/11. This may be due to the wizard's player being a veteran of the gaming world while the druid and cleric had never played before joining my campaign, though both joined it well over a year ago.

Anyhow, thoughts? Suggestions? Um...death threats? No, scratch that. I don't like death threats a lot.

Glimbur
2010-11-19, 05:40 PM
Bonus feats won't really fix the underlying issue. The simple solution is to limit/ban core non-caster classes and encourage other classes. A Warblade still doesn't have the raw power of a wizard, but he has more options and skills than a fighter. A factotum still isn't as flexible as a cleric, but he has more diversity of abilities than a rogue. A warlock or incarnate doesn't have the same BAB as a ranger, but their other abilities mean they can do things besides their one combat trick and a few spells. Etc.

Vladislav
2010-11-19, 05:48 PM
Just ban the Tier 1 and Tier 5 classes, keeping everything between tiers 2-4. Sorcerer vs. Warblade is much easier to balance than Wizard vs. Fighter.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 05:55 PM
Give them spells :smalltongue:
Yes, I am that guy

Dire Moose
2010-11-19, 06:35 PM
I mean no offense to anyone here, but I'd rather not close off the game to everyone who doesn't want to play a caster and doesn't have a bunch of obscure sourcebooks. I was trying to figure out how to balance classes without nerfing or banning anything personally. Also, I do not have anything beyond core and Unearthed Arcana, and as a student in this kind of economy I would rather not shell out a lot of money for hard-to-find out-of-print books. And discussing other options for said material is both against the forum rules and something I wouldn't do anyway.

Really, what I'm trying to ask about is what do I do to make the aforementioned classes more balanced, not what should I nerf or ban.

The Shadowmind
2010-11-19, 06:40 PM
Give them spells :smalltongue:
Yes, I am that guy

I think you are joking, but you do have a bit of a point.
Let us compare a 6th lever fighter to a 6th level sorcerer.
The Fighter has a total of 4 abilities from class levels, in the form of bonus feats.
The Sorcerer has a total of 14 abilities in the form of spells known. 7 of these are not very useful because they are simply cantrips, but even those are useful as a whole(prestidigitation or launch bolt anyone?). Anyone of 4 level one spells the sorcerer gets at this level can take out the fighter(Color spray, grease...), and they still have 2nd and 3rd level spells.

Now what happens if you change the fighter to have 14 abilities?
Since the fighter is based on feats have a total of 7 feats that have Prerequisite that can be met at level one by abilitity scores alone or have no prerequisites, to represent fighter's version of cantrips(Point blank shot, Power Attack, Open Minded,Communicator, etc). 4 feats that can be meet with prerequisites that can be meet with +1BaB, Fort Save +2, and any feat taken from the fighter "cantrip" feats or from the normal feat gained at leveling. 2 Feats that can be meet with fighter 4(+4 BaB, fort +4 Will +1, Reflex +1, and met by feats already taken). And 1 feat that can be meet with fighter 6(+6 BaB, fort +5, +2 Will +2 reflex, and and met by feats already taken). The fighter bonus feats list completely forgotten about to make the fighter stronger as well.

Given abilities to melee classes in a similar way to the method spellcasters got spells was done with ToB and you see how it is liked for giving melee characters nice things.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 06:40 PM
There's plenty of free classes online you can use.

The Guide to Free D&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1109.0)---> All free, all legal.

For example, you want a better Skillmonkey - Psychic Rogues are almost as good as Factotums (worse in some ways, better in others.) Or use Spellthief, and houserule them to cast from Int instead of Cha. You want a better tank - Warblades and all the ToB maneuvers are online. Or if you don't want to use that, use Knight (that is free as well) and just gestalt it with the Pathfinder Paladin. If you want a better Barbarian, Totemist is online too, etc.

Runestar
2010-11-19, 08:23 PM
Extra feats won't be useful past a certain point if there is a dearth of useful higher level feats for a fighter to take. So you will need to create more powerful feats as well. PHB2 sets a pretty good bar, with feats like the improved spring attack feat tree, weapon supremacy and robilar's gambit.

Glimbur
2010-11-19, 10:26 PM
Well, the cheaper but more time intensive way is to find good homebrew online.

Aquillion
2010-11-19, 10:26 PM
There are some suggestions in the tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0). The one that seems to fit what you want most is the "Partial Gestalt" option; this allows people to play weaker classes while remaining decently useful and versatile compared to Tier 1 and 2 casters.


Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

Da Beast
2010-11-19, 10:38 PM
Changing around class features probably won't fix things unless you give the warriors a massive boost in power. Just for emphasis, that's a MASSIVE boost in power. The problem is with the spell lists and bringing the casters back in line would involve going down the spell list and nerfing almost half the spells one at a time. Limiting the tiers players can choose classes from is the easiest way to bring balance back in line.

Psyren
2010-11-19, 10:39 PM
Honestly, the quickest way to Give Melee Nice Things on a budget is to play Pathfinder. Then you can start slipping in the free WotC stuff, then free third-party (e.g. DSP wiki) and finally finish up with homebrew now that you have a lot less to look for.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-19, 11:33 PM
You can't just add minor boosts to non-spellcasters (unless you give them spellcasting, too) and hope to make them equivalent to spellcasters. You've got to bring spellcasters down as well.

Some suggestions:

No metamagic cost reducers.
No early entry options for spellcasting prestige classes.
The whole Alter Self chain is dependent on

personally observing a creature type whose form the spellcaster wants to adopt, and
making the appropriate Knowledge check to identify that creature.

Casting every spell causes SL (spell level) hit points of damage to the spellcaster. Only 0-level spells can be cast without harm. Spellcasters can take a general feat to make this damage nonlethal.
The cost of scrolls, spellbooks, special inks, & c. is 5x higher.

thompur
2010-11-19, 11:48 PM
This is a rough draft of my 'fighter fix'. It still needs work.(as does my typing and spelling apparently)

Fighter
HD d12
4 skill points/ level
add heal, listen, spot, plus one knowledge skill and 2 untrained skills of players choice to skill list.
Level
1 Bonus feat plus Weapon Focus plus 'Fighter's Edge'*
2 Bonus Feat
3 Endurance plus 'Fighter's Heart'**
4 Bonus feat plus Weapon Specialization
5 Steadfast Determination( Con. bonus to will save)
6 Bonus feat plus Armor mastery(+1)***
7 Full Attack as a standard action plus Overcome****
8 Bonus Feat plus Greater Weapon Focus
9 Greater Fighting Heart*****
10 Bonus feat plus Armor mastery(+2)***
11 Fighters Mastery#
12 Bonus feat plus Greater weapon specialization
13 Overcome DR 10
14 Bonus Feat plus Armor Mastery(+3)***
15 Supreme Fighting Spirit ##
16 Bonus Feat
17 Greater Fighter's Mastery ###
18 Bonus Feat plus Armor Mastery (+4)
19 Overcome DR 15
20 Bonus Feat plus Fighter's Supremacy ^^


*+1 to weapon damage/fighter level
**+2 vs. fatigue, sickening, fear effects
***Max Dex/AC penalty improved by #
****Ignore DR 5 (an 'Overcome attack is a standard action)
*****+2 vs exhaustion, nausea, fear
#Penalty to iteritive attacks lessened by 5
## +4 vs. Stun, Fear
### Penalty to iteritive attacks lessened by 10
^^ All iteritive attacks at full BAB

Tvtyrant
2010-11-20, 03:27 AM
Buy a copy of Tome of Battle. That will give you melee characters who have maneuvers that are similar to spells, but not quite as strong.

JaronK
2010-11-20, 05:03 AM
Easiest method: just ask people not to play T1 or T2 classes. They can still be casters, but Beguiler, Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Healer, Warmage, etc are the options. You can still play all the same concepts (bookish intelligent arcane caster who swaps spells every day is now the Factotum, blasty mage is now the Warmage, etc). Now things are much more balanced.

Let them play with ToB to bring it home.

JaronK

dobu
2010-11-20, 07:05 AM
@thompur: your fighter fix is not a real fix.

you just tack some class features on a fighter that let him hit things even harder. That's not the problem at all. Fighters (synonyme for fighting classes) dish out enough damage already with little optimization. It's just they can't do anything else. All they say is: I fullattack, or I trip, or I charge. That's it. No variety. At all.

To improve a Fighter is to give him options, incombat as well as (especially?) out of combat.

Some ideas:

Give him some battlefield control abilities besides tripping. The Knight is a good example how this could work and still be nonmagical. Or go and read Frank and K's Tomes for ideas. They have a good grasp for the wizard's power level.

Give a fighter some status effects. HP damage does nothing if it isn't enough to get your opponent unconscious or dead. Make his opponents dazed, stunned, slow them maybe.

I always liked the idea of floating feats: Magic-users can switch between combat styles within either a second (spontaneus casters) or within a day (prepared casters). The poor fighter has one exclusive combat style and sucks in all others for the rest of his life. Maybe let him change his feats between encounters, or heck, even in combat. He is proficient in all martial weapons, maybe he specializes in certain weapon groups and can switch between them.

Get some team synergies for him. At the moment he relies on his party to get buffed, maybe give him some ability to give something back. Maybe let him inspire his comrades to engage battle, rally them on a charge. This is very similar to the white raven stuff out of the Tome of Battle.

Give him something to do out of combat. This is another HUGE point (and the most difficult one, I think). A fighter (again, this is a synonyme for all fighting classes) has no real out of combat abilities.
A rogue can disable traps, sneak around, steal things, use UMD and so on. A wizard can teleport (party taxi), use divination, imitate other classes (knock, I look at you) etc etc. These were just some quick examples, this list could go on more or less forever.
But what does a fighter do out of combat? Woo some girls with his manly scars? Probably not, as he's not the party face. Give him something to do between the encounters, so that he doesn't feel like he's wasting everyones air. Sure, he won't be the primary sneaker in his fullplate, or the mr. know-it-all, but there HAS to be something he can do.

One last thing: Keep it nonmagical. There's no point in giving him spells like a Wizard, it just doesn't feel right, because now he's a gish. He may be able to do stuff no one else can do, but don't give it that magical feel. That's a complete different category and duplicates more or less the Tome of Battle.

That's just my 2 coppers.

thompur
2010-11-20, 08:59 AM
@thompur: your fighter fix is not a real fix.

[lots of good advice]

That's just my 2 coppers.

Yeah,as I said...a work in progress. I have been pondering much of what you suggested, and intend to address those problems. Basically, the problem with fighters I tackled first was the 'class feature' and 'fighters don't get anything nice' complaint. Much of what you suggest I intend to add to the 'Overcome' class feature. One reason I gave the fighter the 'full attack as standard action' at 7th level was so that I could add options like 'overcome' (probably "borrowing "**cough*stealingshamelessly*cough*** from TOB. Another reason being to make the fighter an interesting 20 level character option rather than a 'dip' class.
I agree completely about avoiding giving them magical abilities.

And, yeah, the out of combat utility is the hardest to figure. After all, no other class is so synonymous with combat.
Edit: "Why not just use ToB?" I hear some of you cry. It's a valid question. One reason is that some groups I play with only own the 3 core books, and like the OP, don't want to spend a lot on splats. Another is that it's fun (at least for me) to try to redesign and homebrew classes and such. I'm working on a 'spell-less Paladin and Ranger. I know they have such variants in UA or PHB2, but they didn't work for me.

Dsurion
2010-11-20, 09:25 AM
Suggesting ToB isn't helping here.


Also, I do not have anything beyond core and Unearthed Arcana, and as a student in this kind of economy I would rather not shell out a lot of money for hard-to-find out-of-print books.

That said, +1 to suggesting Frank and K.

Go here:
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/3.5e_Base_Classes

And take a look at any class with the Tome descriptor.

Dire Moose
2010-11-20, 01:59 PM
I think replacing the core classes with their Tome variants might work, and that sounds better than anything else yet mentioned.

Also, I may allow the base rogue, fighter, etc. classes (unaltered) to be gestalted if someone wants to play a more versatile character from the start.

Psyren
2010-11-20, 02:18 PM
I think replacing the core classes with their Tome variants might work, and that sounds better than anything else yet mentioned.

The Tomes lack a true skillmonkey. Factotum is a nice replacement there though.

EDIT: My mistake, was thinking ToB and ToM. Tome Assassin from that page might work.

Aquillion
2010-11-20, 03:23 PM
The Tomes lack a true skillmonkey. Factotum is a nice replacement there though.

EDIT: My mistake, was thinking ToB and ToM. Tome Assassin from that page might work.Beguiler is also a good option for a Tier-3 skillmonkey, although not every skillmonkey is going to want the fluff of being a caster.

Bards aren't a bad choice, either.

Psyren
2010-11-20, 03:34 PM
Beguiler is also a good option for a Tier-3 skillmonkey, although not every skillmonkey is going to want the fluff of being a caster.

Bards aren't a bad choice, either.

That's why I used Factotum - Beguiler is good at what it does (very good - they are borderline T2) but too magical for many folks. Factotum can cast spells too of course, but are perfectly viable even if you don't.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-20, 03:41 PM
Actually, I have had a fair measure of sucess with giving fighters a feat every level; though I make the "extra" feats at the 3rd and on to be any feat, rather than just fighter feats. I also give fighters special bonuses on some feats for a certain number of fighter levels. (Which are must have x levels of fighter and thus warblades do not get them.)

No-one uses metamagic reducers, nor would allow early entry into PrC anyway (to be fair we tend to use base classes much more than PrCs anyway, and my list of allowed ones is farily short in comparison). I'm starting to look at closing off and banning some of the more abusive spells, but no-one has ever really showed much inclination to use them (say polymorph line) anyway in the past.

With the sort of game paradigm we play at, which is mainly classed humanoid enemies in fairly large numbers (usually with their own spellcaster support), fighters are still contributing extremely well even at high levels. (Though, granted, as players, we do all have more of a preference for blasting.)

(Monks, Rogues, Hexblades and Swashbucklers have also received various boosts, though CW Samurai is banned, as I, with access to all my 3.5 stuff, was able to out class them at all their owh stuff utterly with the modified fighter.)

So it can work quite well, depending on your play style and other factors.

Dire Moose
2010-11-20, 03:56 PM
Regarding skillmonkeys, would my suggestion of giving rogues a skill-based bonus feat (such as Alertness, Skill Focus, etc.) every other level be of any help or is that more flawed than it would seem?

Adamantrue
2010-11-20, 04:07 PM
I just got out of a heated debate against using it for my needs on another Message Board, but I wouldn't be honest if I didn't at least mention E6 (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Epic_6) as an option that may work for you.

Randel
2010-11-20, 04:40 PM
Semi-serious suggestion:

Give them firearms, by which I mean Thompson Sub-machine guns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun).

DM: You all start in a Tavern

Rogue (in trenchcoat, fedora, and equipped with a Tommy Gun): Alright boys, we don't want no slipups see. We're gonna break into the orc encampent west of hear and ice every mug we see, thev've been buggin the travelers around here and we got a duty to protect em, Got it?

Fighter (in bulletproof vest and carrying a Tommygun): Got it boss. But whata we do about Fireball Slim? That new sorcerer who's running the west side?

Wizard: My magic will keep his unholy abominations at bay while we...

Rogue: Yeah yeah yeah, you got the magic words to keep those walkin' corpses of his still while we putt 'em in the ground for good. If those bags a bones get on our way we'll give half of em cement shoes and the rest w'll feed to the dogs.

Rogue gets up

Rogue: Pack your typewriters, boys. We've gonna deliver a little message to those orcs about ruining our protection racket. <slips a full drum on his gun> At 800 words per minute!

The "adventurers" head out of the tavern.

Glimbur
2010-11-20, 06:10 PM
Regarding skillmonkeys, would my suggestion of giving rogues a skill-based bonus feat (such as Alertness, Skill Focus, etc.) every other level be of any help or is that more flawed than it would seem?

Skill Focus is a +3. That can make the difference in picking an extra tricky lock... which the wizard could just Knock. It might mean they find the trap instead of triggering it... but traps always give another way to avoid horrible painful death, typically a save and saving throws are more universally useful. It might make Gather Information work a bit better... or the cleric could just Scry the target.

The problem is that skills simply aren't as good as magic after very low levels.

Curmudgeon
2010-11-20, 09:38 PM
The problem is that some skills simply aren't as good as magic after very low levels.
I fixed that for you. With a way to Hide in Plain Sight, a superior Hide check is much more effective than magic: it triumphs over True Seeing and every single spell which specifies a target creature or requires line of sight. Bluff and Diplomacy can create advantages against opponents who've taken every precaution against magical influence. Move Silently is superior to Silence, since the spell immediately alerts foes when ambient sounds stop. Sleight of Hand and Tumble let you manipulate attended objects and move through enemies in ways that you might duplicate with spells once or twice a day, but the skills just keep working, including in Antimagic Fields.

Aquillion
2010-11-20, 10:11 PM
Bluff and Diplomacy can create advantages against opponents who've taken every precaution against magical influence.They also have the advantage of not screwing things up (generally) if they fail, as long as you don't fail horrifically.

If someone makes their save against most mind-affecting spells, though, things are likely to go to hell immediately.


Move Silently is superior to Silence, since the spell immediately alerts foes when ambient sounds stop. Sleight of Hand and Tumble let you manipulate attended objects and move through enemies in ways that you might duplicate with spells once or twice a day, but the skills just keep working, including in Antimagic Fields.
...with that said, the best solutions are usually magic and skills used in conjunction. Move Silently and Hide are awesome, but they're even more awesome when combined with Invisibility, say. Your bluff is even more awesome if you have Glibness. Etc, etc.

But even if you add all that up, the truth is that each Ability is worth, at most, one spell or two spells. The fact that they last all day long and work in an AMF isn't as big an advantage as you might think -- there are worthwhile spells that last all day long (or which can be made to last all day long), and strategies with spells that let you accomplish things inside an AMF. Skills have potential, definitely, but they need work.

More skill points would be a good start, obviously. It's not going to make everything work on its own, but if you gave all non-casters an additional 2 or even 4 skill points per level, nothing would break. I would also suggest adding more epic applications for skills, making them a bit more dramatic, and making them a bit more reliably accessible -- but that's dangerous, since those are vulnerable to cheese by boosting your results on a skill check.

You could always cheat and specifically state that certain epic applications for skills are only available at the right character levels (or when you have a certain number of ranks in the skill, which you can calibrate towards character level requirements.) With this, you could then effectively create a "progression" for skills that is balanced against the spells that become available at the equivalent levels -- e.g. at 8 or so ranks in Climb, maybe a bit later, you get some dramatic increase in capability to try and put it on par with Fly in usefulness.)

If you did this for every skill, you could turn them into properly-scaling powers.

opticalshadow
2010-11-21, 03:36 PM
have the players play smarter really, banning classes that are core isnt very attractive and i wouldnt play in your party, just because its lazy, and nerfing them isnt any better. i know alot of classes seem useless at higher levels but there are easier things you can do then kill current classes. for example, a fighter will never be as powerful as a wizzard, but if he is given a much larger pool of cash to deal with in the form of items from loot he can still be useful, wizards tend to not need as flashy items, a smart wizard can deal with high level problems with very very low level spells, make sure your players approch problems other then fight and nuke.

also give more oppertunities for the combat classes to excell. if your high enough your group may be scryd upon, which can have groups of enemies teleported to them while the powerhouses are vulnerable, get the enimies closer to the spell casters and get them there when their gaurd is down, and that fighter looks alot more useful.

present challenges that spells are not optimized for, a wizzard can do anythign a fighter can better, given time and prep, but if he isnt prepped, or the challenge starts to become spell resource heavy, it might not be so good to do it. throw in some traps, every try to fight a minitor in an anti magic field? its not even a hard trap to have happen, given the right bad guy and dungeon.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-21, 05:11 PM
Ever heard of Frank and K? They released a whole slew of homebrew that attempts to "fix" melee classes to make them fun and not look totally pathetic compared to casters. If their work dose not outright close the power gap it at least, like tome of battle, makes the gap much less apparent. Their revision of the fighter, Monk and samurai are the most notable though they do some fun stuff with the barbarian and a few other melee types. Oh, they also, in the spirit of AD&D 1e re-created the assassin as as something closer to what it once was, a full base class rather then a PrC.

opticalshadow
2010-11-22, 12:55 AM
that sounds good ill look into it personally for my future games, and i dont mind that type of thing so much, as long as you dont nerf classes into oblivion. personally i always felt that melee suffered mostly just from a logical stand point, if i hit a guy with a battle axe i should do more then 1/16th of his life anyways, and i always wished armor worked more like dr and not so much like ac, especially since didffrent armors are really ment for diffrent protection.

Andion Isurand
2010-11-22, 06:09 AM
You could borrow from Pathfinder to help boost the non-caster classes.

Lans
2010-11-22, 10:15 AM
There is an incarnate based fighter fix on these boards that is pretty good, you might want to check that out.