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Kyeudo
2010-11-20, 01:25 PM
As everyone who has ever tried to use the Truenamer from the Tome of Magic knows, Truename Magic as written does not work. Unless you optimize your Truespeak check to the absolute maximum, including using such things as custom magic items and item familiars, you cannot have a reasonable chance of affect yourself or your allies with Truename magic, let alone a boss encounter several CRs above your level.
Further, the Truenamer lacks options. You are nearly straightjacketed into a single build to be effective, with only minor variations possible without shooting yourself in the foot. Few of the utterances that a Truenamer has access to are significantly different from what an equivalently leveled wizard or cleric could perform and are often much weaker.
To compound the problem, the presented prestige classes suck, with the possible exception of the Fiendbinder. They don't offer any interesting abilities and they more often than not lag behind their base class equivalents. None of them advance the Truenamer base class in any meaningful way, so only straight classed Truenamers get access to higher level utterances.

So, I decided to overhaul the entire Truename Magic system. Now, the presented fix is not too radically different from the existing system. Every utterance that previously existed still exists, the truenamer's utterance progression only had small tweaks made to it, and most of the feats are largely unchanged. The most severe changes are changes made to the levels and durations of many of the existing utterances, the addition of over a dozen utterances to the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool and the Lexicon of the Perfected Map, and the addition or redesign of several prestige classes.

If you have any suggestions, comments, insults, etc. please feel free to share. I can't make it better if no one tells me anything.

Special thanks to those who have helped with this fix
Zaq
Draz74
Quirken
Ankh
Psyren
Yue Ryong

Instead of taking up 16 or 20 posts with my fix like last time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488), my fix is now availible as a downloadable pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/?nviamjqwuacnvk8), all 76 pages of it. Enjoy!

Morph Bark
2010-11-21, 06:35 AM
Awesome! Thanks man. I love your Truenamer fix and advocate it whenever I can. Just couldn't post in the old thread since that woulda been necroing.

Ashtagon
2010-11-21, 06:55 AM
File not found :(

PersonMan
2010-11-21, 07:02 AM
File not found :(

Invalid or deleted on my end.

I can technically say that your fix is even more broken than the original-it just flat out does not work, no matter how much you optimize. :smallwink:

IcarusWings
2010-11-21, 07:50 AM
Invalid or deleted on my end.

I can technically say that your fix is even more broken than the original-it just flat out does not work, no matter how much you optimize. :smallwink:

Ditto obligatory text

Kyeudo
2010-11-21, 10:26 AM
File not found :(

Sorry, looks like when I uploaded the latest corrections I forgot to change the link before I deleted the old version. :smallredface: It should work now.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 11:16 AM
Reposting from PM:



On the Forbidden Word, its long cast time is what balances its "There is no coming back from this one" nature. Interrupting it should be your priority if you are facing it. Making it too good would be bad.


It would, but it's still "Fort negates"; You don't get it until almost epic - at that level, boosting your fort save isn't much of a problem.

I was actually comparing it to NWN's implosion (SRD implosion doesn't apply a fort save penalty), but the principle is the same. This thing is supposed to be equivalent to a 10th-level spell but it comes up a bit short. Implosion, for comparison, can hit multiple targets, takes less time to cast and doesn't require a skill check first. Destruction is single-target, but is also a quick cast; it's a death effect, but is also two levels lower and fortitude partial. Both are easier to reverse than the Word but still difficult.


Should there be side-effects to a bereft using his abilities? I don't mean direct downsides to the bereft himself, but some sort of localized reality-warping that is the reason why the word is known as the Forbidden Word?


Some kind of cosmic backlash? I like the idea but the closest I can think of is some kind of ability damage, along the lines of Hellfire Blast.


No. Two Runes of Motion can't be active at the same time. Two sustained runes can be active at the same time, so a Runeblade that wants to "nova" can have quite a few potent buffs up at once.

Got any ideas on how to word it in a less confusing way?

"The LoS applies to runes with the same name" seems pretty clear.


RTA? Response to attack? Silence Disruption is already an immediate action, so I don't know how much more of a response you can make it.

RTA = Ranged Touch Attack
So the WoS can choose between pointing at you ("Quiet down kids!") which would be the RTA, or glaring at you ("Don't make me come over there.") which would be the gaze attack.

Kyeudo
2010-11-21, 11:46 AM
It would, but it's still "Fort negates"; You don't get it until almost epic - at that level, boosting your fort save isn't much of a problem.

I was actually comparing it to NWN's implosion (SRD implosion doesn't apply a fort save penalty), but the principle is the same. This thing is supposed to be equivalent to a 10th-level spell but it comes up a bit short. Implosion, for comparison, can hit multiple targets, takes less time to cast and doesn't require a skill check first. Destruction is single-target, but is also a quick cast; it's a death effect, but is also two levels lower and fortitude partial. Both are easier to reverse than the Word but still difficult.


Well, I think I need to explicitly label it as not being a death effect. That will get around Death Ward and other immunities, which is more than most save or dies can claim. As for making it apply a penalty to saves against it, I don't think that is a good idea. Utterances already use a Save DC progression that gives them a slight edge on spells at that level - DC 20 + Int Mod at level 20 instead of DC 19 + Int Mod, and there is the syllable of destruction to debuff your target's saves if you have Quicken Utterance.

The Forbidden Word should be the ultimate kill spell, but it shouldn't make every encounter a foregone conclusion.



Some kind of cosmic backlash? I like the idea but the closest I can think of is some kind of ability damage, along the lines of Hellfire Blast.


I was meaning something more like some effect that warps the nearby area in some sort of negative manner, not something that harms the Bereft. Sort of how balefire from the Wheel of Time causes all sorts of causality issues when used.



"The LoS applies to runes with the same name" seems pretty clear.


That sounds appropriate.



RTA = Ranged Touch Attack
So the WoS can choose between pointing at you ("Quiet down kids!") which would be the RTA, or glaring at you ("Don't make me come over there.") which would be the gaze attack.

I don't really like the idea of it being a gaze attack. I think the Warden of Silence is going to be fine with just his ranged touch attack, especially since the number of enemies that are harmed by being silenced in any given encounter is probably going to be low.

Psyren
2010-11-21, 02:46 PM
Well, I think I need to explicitly label it as not being a death effect. That will get around Death Ward and other immunities, which is more than most save or dies can claim. As for making it apply a penalty to saves against it, I don't think that is a good idea. Utterances already use a Save DC progression that gives them a slight edge on spells at that level - DC 20 + Int Mod at level 20 instead of DC 19 + Int Mod, and there is the syllable of destruction to debuff your target's saves if you have Quicken Utterance.

Actually, that reinforces my point - if you're saying the whole thing, shouldn't the syllable of destruction be part of it? Therefore, the debuff to saves should actually be included in the Word itself.

I'm reminded of the 7FV capstone, Kaleidoscopic Doom; you have a chance of pwning the target with every veil at once.


The Forbidden Word should be the ultimate kill spell, but it shouldn't make every encounter a foregone conclusion.

I don't really see it that way; Fort is still the highest save for most high-level monsters.


I was meaning something more like some effect that warps the nearby area in some sort of negative manner, not something that harms the Bereft. Sort of how balefire from the Wheel of Time causes all sorts of causality issues when used.

Ah. From a flavor standpoint I'm on board, but the more complicated you make this thing the less likely a DM will be to allow it. Nobody wants a PC that can unravel their campaign by speaking. (And there isn't even a Wish-esque clause in this that lets the DM screw with the players if they get too egregious.)


I don't really like the idea of it being a gaze attack. I think the Warden of Silence is going to be fine with just his ranged touch attack, especially since the number of enemies that are harmed by being silenced in any given encounter is probably going to be low.

Fair enough, it was just a suggestion. I'm still tickled by the image of the librarian who scowls menacingly at you if your cellphone beeps or whatever. :smalltongue:

Kyeudo
2010-11-22, 01:41 AM
Actually, that reinforces my point - if you're saying the whole thing, shouldn't the syllable of destruction be part of it? Therefore, the debuff to saves should actually be included in the Word itself.

I'm reminded of the 7FV capstone, Kaleidoscopic Doom; you have a chance of pwning the target with every veil at once.


If the additional debuff to Fort is included, nothing stops it from stacking with the debuffs already in place. That would be a -8 penalty on saves, plus whatever you can dig out of regular utterances, like a reversed Confounding Resistance. With that high of penalties, even a dragon's +30 to Fort saves doesn't look as good.

Besides which, IotSFV is one of the top tier prestige classes, considered broken powerful by many. I want this class to be one that won't get banned by most DMs.



Ah. From a flavor standpoint I'm on board, but the more complicated you make this thing the less likely a DM will be to allow it. Nobody wants a PC that can unravel their campaign by speaking. (And there isn't even a Wish-esque clause in this that lets the DM screw with the players if they get too egregious.)


And thus my conundrum. I'd like something small, possibly something that doesn't carry any mechanical ramifications, but would be a reason why using the Forbidden Word or its syllables could be construed as harmful to the universe.

Idea: perhaps connect damaging the fabric of reality with the Far Realm, such as by noting that extraplanar abberations appear more frequently where the Forbidden Word has been used. Thoughts?

Psyren
2010-12-03, 08:52 AM
Sorry I'm a couple weeks late with the feedback, but I actually lost your PDF :smallredface: and now Mediafire is giving me trouble with downloads (not just yours, any mediafire link.) I had a question about the Epic Truenamer progression that I'm not sure your guide already answered. And do you also have Epic uses of Truespeak?

Can you e-mail me your file? e-mail address PM'ed

Kyeudo
2010-12-03, 12:32 PM
I haven't bothered with any sort of epic progression for the Truenamer or the Truespeak skill. Epic is so imbalanced practically anything goes. Just replace Spellcraft with Truespeak in Epic Spellcasting and you have Epic Utterances.

Psyren
2010-12-03, 07:37 PM
That's fair... but I still think Epic Uses of Truespeak could be fun to come up with. Say, for the odd Noble, Factotum, Human Paragon etc. that bones up on his linguistics.

You already have minor magical effects ascribed just to the skill itself (e.g. Whisper of Fire, Echo of Magic); what could a more experienced dabbler, or one who boosted his skill check to ridiculous levels (think Diplomancer) achieve?

Kyeudo
2010-12-04, 12:48 AM
You already have minor magical effects ascribed just to the skill itself (e.g. Whisper of Fire, Echo of Magic); what could a more experienced dabbler, or one who boosted his skill check to ridiculous levels (think Diplomancer) achieve?

Those minor effects are meant to fill the space of Cantrips for Truenaming. Some minor magical effects are very useful to have, but not quite worth an Utterance slot by themselves (like Truenaming's version of Detect Magic).

Epic uses of skills just aren't usually useful except for very niche character builds. Most of them just duplicate what a 2nd or 3rd level spell can do. I'd rather spend my brain power on figuring out a new 2nd level utterance than figure out a good epic level use for Truenaming. If you really needed one, though, go with "Use an utterance without knowing the utterance" and peg the DC about 20 or 30 points higher than the utterance normally would be.

Pechvarry
2010-12-04, 03:51 PM
Did anyone else get pounded by ad loops the moment they chose to download?

Kyeudo
2010-12-05, 01:23 AM
Yeah I get it too. Its a problem with free file hosting. They have to pay for their servers somehow and I'm too cheap to get a paid account just to share homebrew with the internet.

Pechvarry
2010-12-05, 03:44 AM
Yeah, just obnoxious when it's one of those things that keeps opening new windows when I close the old ones (not my computer so no adblock jazz).

Regardless, thank you for this. I'm going to DL and use this as a replacement for 1/3rd of my copy of Tome of Magic.

Yue Ryong
2010-12-12, 02:37 PM
...Having just decided to play a Truenamer in a game I'm in, I cannot thank you enough for this. It might even be awesome enough for my DM to let me play it. ^_^

My only slight disappointment is that you named a monk-class ability 'Recitation of the North Star' and it's not a death effect. >_<

Edit: OK, I've finally had a chance to go over this with a fine tooth comb, and pick out the major 'ooh' moments, the stuff I consider broken, and the stuff that really irritates me.

Stuff that I consider Fun
* The ability to achieve a 60+ on an untrained Knowledge Check at level 20. Fear my all-conquering archives of knowledge.
* The ability to create my own demiplane... I know wizards, psions & clerics can do it several levels earlier, but I'm hard-coding a whole new reality. That's cool. I'm willing to wait for level 20 for that, even give up the crazy options of 'at-will Gate'.
* The ability to put out a minute of darkness across the whole of a city, if I learnt the proper true names. That's cool, even if it does mean that stabbing the guy doing the chanting on top of the giant tower becomes a priority. Even if the whole city stabs me for it, and it ends a minute later even if they don't... that's cool.
* The ability to convert a permanent wand charge into several more charges that will disappear soon. Also, the ability to burn your xp to create more charges for a wand

Horribly Broken
* Chant Utterance - The debuffs it allows aren't quite as bad as I first thought, but the infinite, super-cheap healing needs to go. Either stop it working with the healing form of Word of Nurturing (or both, even), or drop it all together. It brings in some cool effects, and makes you into a gigantic shiny target, but the infinite healing is just wrong.
* Heighten Utterance - Dangerous territory, even at the best of times, but certainly too cheap here. +1 Save DC per +2 DC on a skill check is way too fast a progression. +1/5, maybe, or even +1/8... definitely not as written.

Dante & Vergil
2010-12-26, 11:43 PM
What is different between this Updated fix and the one you had before? It doesn't have to be a detailed list of everything, just some generallities throughout the document.

Zeta Kai
2010-12-27, 12:20 AM
Good fix, nice update, & I'm glad that it's in a handy-dandy PDF for easy consumption. I filed it right next to Kellus's awesome (yet completely different) TN fix. You might wanna mention that there's a PDF in the thread title, so people know that there's a free download.

Kyeudo
2010-12-27, 01:44 AM
Horribly Broken
* Chant Utterance - The debuffs it allows aren't quite as bad as I first thought, but the infinite, super-cheap healing needs to go. Either stop it working with the healing form of Word of Nurturing (or both, even), or drop it all together. It brings in some cool effects, and makes you into a gigantic shiny target, but the infinite healing is just wrong.


There are quite a few ways to get infinite and functionally infinite healing already in the game, so this is something I'm not worried about.



* Heighten Utterance - Dangerous territory, even at the best of times, but certainly too cheap here. +1 Save DC per +2 DC on a skill check is way too fast a progression. +1/5, maybe, or even +1/8... definitely not as written.

Perhaps you're right, but before I go changing anything too quickly, which utterances does it make too powerful? Most don't allow a saving throw, so there's only a handful of utterances that can exploit it.


What is different between this Updated fix and the one you had before? It doesn't have to be a detailed list of everything, just some generallities throughout the document.

A new base class, two or three utterances, an artifact, and two prestige classes, one of which is for pure Truenamers and the other can be entered by straight-classed Fighters.

Pechvarry
2010-12-29, 02:33 PM
There are quite a few ways to get infinite and functionally infinite healing already in the game, so this is something I'm not worried about.

Thing with infinite healing is, it could effectively turn the truenamer into a healer. Chant Utterance becomes a required 3rd level feat, and the Word of Nurturing line becomes must-have lexicons known. Additionally, most infinite healing isn't on the magnitude of 10-25 fast healing. I don't really think DMM: Persist clerics are a good benchmark of balance.

I'd suggest either a maximum number of rounds concentration can be held (10 seems like a good place), or simply increase the prerequisites. If you can up the reqs, then you have to build for it, which means giving up other avenues for power. That would mean the TrueHealer would be a working Truenamer build instead of an expectation.

--

Notes on your PDF: It could use either a short index or bookmarks for the different sections. Also, your feats aren't in any sort of order (though I know that would be a pain to fix).

Kyeudo
2010-12-30, 05:15 PM
Thing with infinite healing is, it could effectively turn the truenamer into a healer. Chant Utterance becomes a required 3rd level feat, and the Word of Nurturing line becomes must-have lexicons known. Additionally, most infinite healing isn't on the magnitude of 10-25 fast healing. I don't really think DMM: Persist clerics are a good benchmark of balance.

I'd suggest either a maximum number of rounds concentration can be held (10 seems like a good place), or simply increase the prerequisites. If you can up the reqs, then you have to build for it, which means giving up other avenues for power. That would mean the TrueHealer would be a working Truenamer build instead of an expectation.


Let's see - Combat lasts about 10 rounds on average. You could A) use two standard actions to speak a Word of Nurturing on someone and give them fast healing for those 10 rounds or B) give up all 10 rounds worth of standard actions to use only a single Word of Nurturing and give the same someone the same duration of fast healing. If we look at it this way, Chant Utterance doesn't make you a better in-combat healer than you were before.

Out of combat, there are many ways to heal up to at least half your hit points with little or no real resource cost - Buer Vestige, Touch of Healing feat, DMM Persisted Vigor, wand of Lesser Vigor, Wand of Cure Light Wounds, etc. It seems to be the consensus on the boards that such doesn't really break the math of the game in pieces.



Notes on your PDF: It could use either a short index or bookmarks for the different sections. Also, your feats aren't in any sort of order (though I know that would be a pain to fix).

Still trying to figure out how to do that properly. I don't use some features of OpenOffice very often.

Pechvarry
2010-12-30, 07:55 PM
I'm currently in a campaign where I'm constantly running a vigor aura, giving everyone 1 hp/round up to half health. I can count on one finger the number of times it's been feasible to sit and wait for it to do its work. Fast Healing 1 is a nice trick. And it's not really making you invincible when you're entering every fight at half health. Fast healing 15 or so between every fight with no cap? Possibility of being able to use it on all allies at the same time if they're the same creature type? You just have to admit, it's more powerful than other options.

While I would still like to see the prereqs upped, you'd really need a good deal of playtesting to decide if it's too much. I say "a good deal" because the issue is still that it may end up a feat/utterance known tax. But this is homebrew. If it's broken, the DM has even more footing than normal for changing it.

So after all that, I suppose you should keep it the way you have it. But keep a close eye on any game play reports.

Kyeudo
2010-12-30, 10:49 PM
That is one of my problems. I have no real way to playtest this fix. Every PbP game I join using it dies within a month, I haven't had a real life group for like four years, and, for all the general approval I've had of the fix, I haven't seen any play reports back.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-05, 10:31 AM
There are quite a few ways to get infinite and functionally infinite healing already in the game, so this is something I'm not worried about.Near as I can tell, all of which either cap out at half your normal maximum or are similarly considered incredibly broken.

Edit:
Let's see - Combat lasts about 10 rounds on average. You could A) use two standard actions to speak a Word of Nurturing on someone and give them fast healing for those 10 rounds or B) give up all 10 rounds worth of standard actions to use only a single Word of Nurturing and give the same someone the same duration of fast healing. If we look at it this way, Chant Utterance doesn't make you a better in-combat healer than you were before.True. Their in-combat healing is at best moderate. That's fine.
Out of combat, there are many ways to heal up to at least half your hit points with little or no real resource costThis is where the real problem lies. The ability to walk into functionally every fight in the game at full health is big advantage.
Buer VestigeI admit, I've never seen anyone kick up an especially big stink about this one, but that doesn't mean it's not on similarly risky territory. Even given the extremely low amount of healing it grants, this is extremely potent, and frankly, I would slap the same limits as Touch of Healing on it.
Touch of Healing featCaps out at half, which the system seems to be able to handle.
DMM Persisted VigorAny time you're using Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell to defend something, you may be onto worrying territory. Divine Metamagic is extremely badly balanced and using it to defend anything is not good practice.
wand of Lesser VigorNot infinite, costs GP for each use.
Wand of Cure Light WoundsAs before.
It seems to be the consensus on the boards that such doesn't really break the math of the game in pieces.The game is balanced on the assumption that a standard fight is intended to force the expenditure of a quarter of your resources, including your HP. If you have a way to eliminate the expenditure of those resources, the game loses a major risk element, and the game's assumptions do not allow for that. Ergo, not only does a Truenamer with this combination outrate 90+% of all other healers, it does eventually remove all challenge from the game and render playing almost pointless.
Perhaps you're right, but before I go changing anything too quickly, which utterances does it make too powerful? Most don't allow a saving throw, so there's only a handful of utterances that can exploit it.From the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind alone - Breath of Cleansing, Breath of Recovery, Dreamless Slumber, Preternatural Clarity, Sensory Focus, Serpent's Tongue, Singular Mind, Temporal Spiral, Temporal Twist & Unname can all functionally end a fight on the spot on a failed save, while Eldritch Attraction, Pinnacle of Triumph, Silent Caster & Ward of Peace can all stack the deck substantially in your favour.
Dreamless Slumber & Silent Caster can easily be pushing save DCs of 30 or higher at level 10, with only moderate chance of failure - Regular save DC of 21; Truespeech bonus of +37 (13 ranks, +3 Skill focus, +6 Int, +10 Item, Universal Aptitude +5) v. difficulty 29 (15 + CR12 opponent + 2 Utterance). That gives a good 18 points of ramp-up to reach a save DC that only two of the CR12 monsters in the SRD can reach without a natural 20 for only a 50/50 shot of failure. Heck, most of the time, I can afford to drop it down by four to get a 70% chance of success with a DC 28, with only one more monster being able to do it without a natural 20. I'm not even burning any expendables for the attempt, apart from one turn's worth of Universal Aptitude & an action.
Dangerous territory like this is the reason why 3.5 left the vast bulk of Save DC boosters behind, for fear of effects that instantly end fights that no one can resist without a natural 20 or flat out immunity to the effect.

I adore the rest of your fix, so just these two issues need to be sorted out. Either cap the healing on the Words of Nurturing (my preferred suggestion - easy way would be to make it do lump-sum healing like most spells do, even if it does interfere with the thematic separation a bit) or drop Chant Utterance entirely, and Heightened Utterance needs to be either excised completely or at least brought to heel.

Kyeudo
2011-01-05, 03:31 PM
Near as I can tell, all of which either cap out at half your normal maximum or are similarly considered incredibly broken.


I don't know. No one calls Buer broken and the DMM Persisted Lesser Vigor trick isn't considered that strong. It's the "DMM Persist" part of the trick that gets called broken, just because of all-day long short duration buffs. Plus, wands of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds are dirt cheap and heal for a ton, so it is very easy to get more healing than you actually can use in a normal day of adventuring.

Still, this is not costless healing. Sure, you can extend the duration on any of the Words of Nurturing as long as you want, giving you infinite healing from any of them, but there is a cost.

Each is only single target unless you have Speak Unto the Masses. That means to heal a party of four, you'll actually use three or four activations healing up the whole party, increasing the DC by6-8 for the next round of healing. This is the equivalent of burning three or four spell slots on healing the party.



From the Lexicon of the Evolving Mind alone - Breath of Cleansing, Breath of Recovery, Dreamless Slumber, Preternatural Clarity, Sensory Focus, Serpent's Tongue, Singular Mind, Temporal Spiral, Temporal Twist & Unname can all functionally end a fight on the spot on a failed save, while Eldritch Attraction, Pinnacle of Triumph, Silent Caster & Ward of Peace can all stack the deck substantially in your favour.
Dreamless Slumber & Silent Caster can easily be pushing save DCs of 30 or higher at level 10, with only moderate chance of failure - Regular save DC of 21; Truespeech bonus of +37 (13 ranks, +3 Skill focus, +6 Int, +10 Item, Universal Aptitude +5) v. difficulty 29 (15 + CR12 opponent + 2 Utterance). That gives a good 18 points of ramp-up to reach a save DC that only two of the CR12 monsters in the SRD can reach without a natural 20 for only a 50/50 shot of failure. Heck, most of the time, I can afford to drop it down by four to get a 70% chance of success with a DC 28, with only one more monster being able to do it without a natural 20. I'm not even burning any expendables for the attempt, apart from one turn's worth of Universal Aptitude & an action.
Dangerous territory like this is the reason why 3.5 left the vast bulk of Save DC boosters behind, for fear of effects that instantly end fights that no one can resist without a natural 20 or flat out immunity to the effect.


Your point is very well made. So, that makes the question: Do I weaken Heighten Utterance or take it out altogether? To borrow some of your math, currently, you can snag a +9 to the DC. If one additional level cost an increase of 4 to the DC, the DC increase would still be +4, which is rather high for a Save DC increase. If we made it 6 to 1, that would be +3 and 8 to 1 is +2. The final two seem the most reasonable at the moment, but as levels increase, your Truespeak bonus should be increasing relative to the difficulty of the DCs to speak your utterances, so you can get away with more.

If I keep it in, I can't make the DC adjustment too high or else the feat becomes worthless. If the most you can get out of it is only +1 or +2, most will just take Utterance Focus or Focused Lexicon instead.

Thoughts?

Yue Ryong
2011-01-06, 02:55 PM
I don't know. No one calls Buer broken and the DMM Persisted Lesser Vigor trick isn't considered that strong. It's the "DMM Persist" part of the trick that gets called broken, just because of all-day long short duration buffs. Plus, wands of Lesser Vigor or Cure Light Wounds are dirt cheap and heal for a ton, so it is very easy to get more healing than you actually can use in a normal day of adventuring.But they are still pumping you for gold each time. It's making it a choice between gold you can expend later on preventative effects in the form of defences or attacks you can bring to bear to end fights earlier. Free/too cheap healing abilities remove that choice altogether for all but the direst of circumstances.
Still, this is not costless healing. Sure, you can extend the duration on any of the Words of Nurturing as long as you want, giving you infinite healing from any of them, but there is a cost.

Each is only single target unless you have Speak Unto the Masses. That means to heal a party of four, you'll actually use three or four activations healing up the whole party, increasing the DC by6-8 for the next round of healing. This is the equivalent of burning three or four spell slots on healing the party.This would hold up better, if the Law of Resistance applied to Utterances collectively (which would nerf them into the ground on every front), or if the Word of Nurturing line became substantially less valuable for these purposes later on in the progression. As-is, the use of Chant utterance makes the difference between the various grades of Word of Nurturing almost meaningless, allowing you to pull off very substantial healing for an almost derisory cost.

The math I used before showed how easy it was to pull off a low-level utterance on a target - a tradeoff normally paid for by substantially reduced potency. Chant Utterance means that the Words of Nurturing are almost identical for healing purposes once out of combat, so you can afford to use the weakest of them without worry.

This tactic leaves you able to bring individual allies or yourself into combat completely healed (again, using my previous maths) 4(-Utterance level) times per healing utterance available without any chance of failure at level 10, with no loss of any other form of resources. If we assume two seriously injured allies per fight (or, more to the point, two allies whose maximum HP is low enough that free healing up to half health from Touch of Healing or a Vigour Aura is insufficient), that equates to 3 fights of completely free healing, with no associated risk (if the character has taken the first 3 Words of Nurturing, so a lot of Utterances spent, admittedly). That's not too bad, if we're honest, the game can probably handle that without too much trouble, and you have sunk a lot of your character options into this...

Except that once you're out of combat, you lose nothing for a failed Utterance - which means that we're not talking about 4 - (Utterance Level); we're talking about 14 - (Utterance Level), per healing utterance known. Assuming our example has taken a 4th Word of Nurturing (another 10 free healings? sure!), that equates to 46 fully healed allies per day (or 23 fights worth). Or to put it another way: an almost fully charged Staff of Heal (3.0 version) every day. At level 10. For Free. Kind of puts that '4 fights a day' thing from the DMG behind us, doesn't it?

Sidenote: Someone does call Buer broken - Me. Fully healed party every fight is not territory we should be dealing in pre-Epic, if ever. And the fact that DMM Persist Lesser Vigour is small beer says far more about the other horrible stuff you can do with that than the relative balance of free healing - on one person, costing a sizeable chunk of your Turn Undead attempts for the day, non-transferrable... so still not anything like as cheap to pull off as this little trick

In short... Chant Utterance is a cool concept, but stop it connecting to healing or the game gets very silly.
Your point is very well made. So, that makes the question: Do I weaken Heighten Utterance or take it out altogether? To borrow some of your math, currently, you can snag a +9 to the DC. If one additional level cost an increase of 4 to the DC, the DC increase would still be +4, which is rather high for a Save DC increase. If we made it 6 to 1, that would be +3 and 8 to 1 is +2. The final two seem the most reasonable at the moment, but as levels increase, your Truespeak bonus should be increasing relative to the difficulty of the DCs to speak your utterances, so you can get away with more.

If I keep it in, I can't make the DC adjustment too high or else the feat becomes worthless. If the most you can get out of it is only +1 or +2, most will just take Utterance Focus or Focused Lexicon instead.

Thoughts?I'd aim it at about +5:+1. In my example, that would mean we've got a +2 almost for free, or up to a +5 for greater risks (or a +6 if you can drag a +2 circumstance from somewhere & get a natural 20). That's a pretty good trade-off, but the risk is going to seriously make it an unattractive proposition unless you're having real trouble.

If we roll forward the clock to level 20... We're looking at something like +55 (23 ranks, +3 Skill focus, +12 Int, +10 Enhancement, +1 Competance, +1 Luck, +5 Universal Aptitude) vs DC 42 (15 + CR25 + 2 Utterance), which gives you a +3 almost free, with a scale up of to +6 with risk...
Oops. >_< Forgot Pinnacle of Triumph. Yeah, that gets you a flat 84, which you can reliably convert into a +8, on top of your 32 base, to get you a DC 40... High, but not unmanageable for a lot of high-end opponents. Furthermore, This is assuming we're using Dreamless Slumber, which almost every creature encountered will just ignore at level 20, and the efficiency goes down with more powerful utterances - but the more powerful ones have effects more likely to work, so... swings and roundabouts.

Draz74
2011-01-06, 05:29 PM
I haven't had a real life group for like four years,

Might have something to do with living in a town in northern Utah with a population of 6000. :smallwink:

(Not trying to offend anyone here. I have friends from Tremonton, and was first introduced to making fun of how small and isolated it is by them.)

Yeah, I'd be very interested to see an actual play report of this class. Maybe ask Zaq, the local Truenamer expert?

Kyeudo
2011-01-06, 05:40 PM
That sounds like a fair middle ground for Heighten Utterance.

As for Chant Utterance, you've established that this is a lot of healing. Now the question is: is a lot of healing a bad thing? I do understand that in playtesting they worked around the four encounter day mechanic, but 3.5 started to evolve away from that towards the end. They realized your adventuring day really only needed to end because the spellcasters ran out of spells. Look at the Warlock, Binder, anything Incarnum, and Tome of Battle. Those are based on a per-encounter model that usually assumes you go into every battle reasonably topped off on hit points and they worked out pretty well.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-06, 08:16 PM
OK. Well, let's approach the healing issue differently. The Truenamer, unless I've misjudged, is not meant to be an especially healing-heavy class. It's meant to be a bit of a sideroad for them that they can call on if necessary, but more often leave to more dedicated healers, much like it is for Druids or Bards? Given that it's thematic connections with healing in the particular is... limited, at best.

Assuming that a character of 10th level has around 50-100 hp (an average of 75, we'll say, for simplicity), that means that our example Truenamer can be pumping out up to 4048 points of targeted healing per day, without expending any permanent resources in the form of magic items & having spent 4 of his 11 Evolving Mind Utterances.
For a point of reference, an equivalent Radiant Servant of Pelor (theoretically the best healer in the game short of possibly the Healer class itself) rates in at 1,553.25 points of targeted healing per day (+ Touch of Healing, which can't be calculated into this accurately, but would equate to 2024 points under identical conditions to the example above), having stashed his his entire feat & spell selection into healing (save for not using DMM Persist Vigour).

Are you genuinely telling me that you think the Truenamer (a scholar and utility caster, for the most part) should be outpacing with relative ease the healing capacity of the best healers in the game?

Kyeudo
2011-01-06, 11:07 PM
Now there is an argument for a problem. Thanks for taking the time to beat the idea through my thick skull.

So, the question becomes "Can it be fixed to be reasonable without killing its possibilities?"

Yue Ryong
2011-01-06, 11:29 PM
I'd argue that the healing is more than adequate without Chant Utterance, and that the really cool stuff with Chant Utterance lies elsewhere. Break that link, and it becomes a neat trick you can pull to extend the duration of useful utilities like Skyward Eye or Hidden Truth (and make the Reversed Word of Nurturing into a half-decent assassination tool).

Edit: Without Chant Utterance, our example Truenamer can pull down 2,040 hit points of healing (or 2,810 if he knows the target's Personal Truename) with Extend Utterance. Echo Utterance adds roughly half again to that, but far less reliably, as you can only spam the initial attempt until successful.

That's still a lot of healing, if I'm honest, and all three of these feat interactions would be shut down immediately by making the Words of Nurturing all work instantaneously. Assuming the same output for everything else, that'd give us 1,020HP normally or 1,405 for an ally close enough to pick up the Truename of. Roughly six to ten fights' worth on my previous assumptions, or almost double that if an ally has touch of healing (and if they do, you can afford to target your healing a lot more to important boss battles and the like, especially secure in the knowledge that the group has at least one other healer).

Kyeudo
2011-01-07, 01:12 AM
I don't really like the idea of making the Word of Nurturing line instantaneous. Every other class does its healing on the instantaneous model and I always liked how Truenamers could set up healing in advance but had to worry about whether a heal would do enough in time when in a crunch situation.

vetinari007
2011-01-07, 02:38 AM
Special: a reversed word of nurturing cannot be affected by inflections.

:|

Kyeudo
2011-01-07, 07:46 AM
Special: a reversed word of nurturing cannot be affected by inflections.

:|

That would be like arbitrarily being unable to use metamagic with half the spells in your arsenal.

vetinari007
2011-01-07, 08:34 AM
Its the simple solution. Allow some of the "harmless" inflections to be used with the reversed words of nurturing and disallow the duration extending ones.

Its those three feats that cause the problem, so don't allow those feats to affect it.

Its not even unprecendented. In the XPH, the timeless body power specifically states that it cannot be quickened, despite having a manifesting time of 1 standard action. (Timeless body = invulnerable until the end of your next turn. More or less.)

Yue Ryong
2011-01-07, 08:59 AM
Its the simple solution. Allow some of the "harmless" inflections to be used with the reversed words of nurturing and disallow the duration extending ones.

Its those three feats that cause the problem, so don't allow those feats to affect it.

Its not even unprecendented. In the XPH, the timeless body power specifically states that it cannot be quickened, despite having a manifesting time of 1 standard action. (Timeless body = invulnerable until the end of your next turn. More or less.)This is true, but it feels a touch inelegant, and I suppose the thematic distinction we get from duration-based healing is important...

Hm... I'd not be opposed to leaving them with their existing amount of healing, if it were subject to the same restrictions as the Touch of Healing feat (i.e. no raising above half health). That puts them on a level with the Dragon Shaman as a healer (or slightly better, due to the other healing utterances they get) - solid backup healers, but you'd still want a more capable healing class to back you up. Heck, given the cost of getting hold of Personal Truenames, you could have that restriction waived if they're used (or possibly just raised to 3/4).

vetinari007
2011-01-07, 09:18 AM
This is true, but it feels a touch inelegant, and I suppose the thematic distinction we get from duration-based healing is important...

Hm... I'd not be opposed to leaving them with their existing amount of healing, if it were subject to the same restrictions as the Touch of Healing feat (i.e. no raising above half health). That puts them on a level with the Dragon Shaman as a healer (or slightly better, due to the other healing utterances they get) - solid backup healers, but you'd still want a more capable healing class to back you up. Heck, given the cost of getting hold of Personal Truenames, you could have that restriction waived if they're used (or possibly just raised to 3/4).

I like. Half health without the truename, full health with. At 500/HD/party member, thats a pretty big hit to party funds.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-07, 10:51 AM
I like. Half health without the truename, full health with. At 500/HD/party member, thats a pretty big hit to party funds.500gp/Party Member/HD at time of acquisition. It's a good idea to get them as soon as possible.

I'm still not sure why it costs so much, particularly when Truenamers have access to things like Hidden Truth, which allow them to know things independently of having ever learned them, but handing them out free would probably break the game in half. Perhaps if we could introduce a use for Knowledge to figure them out over longer periods at a rate equivalent to the Profession Skill...

Edit: Number crunching, Go! OK, rates equivalent to the Profession skill are less than impressive, topping out at about 65gp a week. Dead end. Wish I'd never thought of it.

Kyeudo
2011-01-07, 03:57 PM
I have to object here. A truenamer is a support role, not a hybrid class like the Dragon Shaman. His ideal spot in a party is throwing buffs and debuffs around with a hint of battlefield control, sort of like what the Cleric or Druid should have been before they discoverd CoDzilla. Healing all the way to full is perfectly in character for them.

Perhaps a maximum on how long Chant Utterance can be used to extend the duration would be better? Say a minute?

Yue Ryong
2011-01-07, 07:32 PM
I have to say, that sort of limit on chant utterance makes it seem slightly pathetic to me. That essentially puts it on a level where it becomes a version of Extend Utterance which you have to concentrate on.
I mostly took it for a duration extender on the sort of utility Utterances that lacked long durations for fluff reasons (such as Skywards Eye, Sensory Focus or Wind-Carried Words), but that wouldn't break the game if it became available.

So the options on the table at the moment are:
1) Cap healing at half, which you don't like, for thematic reasons I don't really agree with
2) Make Chant Utterance substantially weaker, which I maintain makes it so much weaker it becomes almost useless as a feat choice.
3) Make the Utterance or Feat explicitly disallow combination with each other (and possibly Extend & Echo utterance also), which is a touch inelegant, but might be...

*Glances back at the PDF.* ...We could give the Words of Nurturing Durations of 'Concentration (up to 5 rounds)'. That would render them inapplicable for the three problem feats, and only drop their in-combat healing by a slight grade (which they can frankly afford, in my view).

Kyeudo
2011-01-07, 09:07 PM
2) Make Chant Utterance substantially weaker, which I maintain makes it so much weaker it becomes almost useless as a feat choice.

Well, which utterances are real powerhouses when used in conjunction with Chant Utterance? Looks to me like things such as Reversed Breath of Cleansing, Reversed Breath of Recovery, Reversed Energy Negation, Reversed Inertia Surge, or Reversed Temporal Twist are what get the most bang for their buck. They are all crippling, short duration debuffs that can suddenly be extended to last the entire fight instead of just an extra round. A combat doesn't last that long, though, less than a minute usually, so the main source of power from the feat would not be lost by restricting Chant Utterance down in duration.

There are a few utterances that get interesting but not broken utility from having an unlimited duration Chant Utterance, like Seek the Sky, Sensory Focus, and Serpent's Tongue, but those particular utterances are very much in the minority. While I'd be sad to see the interesting combination of a Chanted Inaudible Reversed Vision Sharpened go, if making such combos inaccessible is the price for fixing a slew of mechanical problems that seems fine by me.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-07, 09:56 PM
I tend to take the opposite view, that the short duration of most combats means that the utility uses are the real meat of Chant Utterance over it's siblings (which are far more effective for the Debuffs due to the retention of actions). An extra minute of spying, flight or mind control isn't that worth it out of combat; being able to catch a full conversation or fly across the continent (which Wizards have been able to do by now for up to two levels)? That's cool.

Also:
Reversed Breath of CleansingProblematic, admittedly, but the 4 rounds you can pull with Echoing Extended Utterance is more than enough for most circumstances.
Reversed Breath of RecoveryFrankly, Coup de Grace means that 1 round of paralysis is a death sentence anyhow, assuming they fail the save.
Reversed Energy NegationExtend Utterance. 10 rounds is more than enough for most fights, without burning all your actions.
Reversed Inertia Surge Hm... maybe, I'd say the loss of actions still puts it behind the Echoing Extended Utterance method, though.
Reversed Temporal TwistAgain, Extended Echoing Utterance vs. loss of actions.

The concentration requirement means that Chant Utterance is...fairly bad for combat by comparison with Extend & Echoing Utterance (especially in combination); It's real strengths lie in things with either great range (such as spy magic) or particular benefit in maintaining beyond the length of a single combat (such as mind-control). I'd only really use Chant Utterance in combat if I was bringing in my last reliable Utterance of the day, but if I wanted to really have fun with it, I'd bring an Unending Night to a City while my evil minions (with blindsight) laid waste to the panicked populace.

Kyeudo
2011-01-08, 02:36 AM
Point made. So, Chant Utterance's major problems lie with being too good for healing and that's about it. Hmm. Perhaps require a new Truespeak check every minute to maintain the effect?

Yue Ryong
2011-01-08, 09:19 AM
Depends if the Law of Resistance applies. If it does, we're back to my previous point about it being nerfed.
Otherwise, we effectively drop back down to [4 - Utterance Level] Full Heals (per Healing Utterance), then progressively lower average healing (95%, 85%, etc) per utterance used... resulting in healing power of about [(20 - Dice Number Required) x Rounds Duration of Utterance x Fast Healing Granted] per use (on average, at least)... that's a healing capacity of [150, 130, 110, 90, 70, 50, 35, 25, 15, 5] (in order of uses, doubled with personal truename, combined with Extend Utterance on the times it'll help) for the very weakest possible Utterance, after having 3 full heals as part of the deal. Taking our average of 75 hp for a level 10 character, we're still running into practically full heals for the first 5 uses after our 'free' ones. That's worrying.

For Reference, here's a table, showing how much healing each level works out at.
1: 5 (10)/10 (20) = [150, 130, 110, 90, 70, 50, 35, 25, 15, 5] (+100% for Personal Truenames] = 3 Full + 680hp
2: 15 (20)/30 (40) = [450, 390, 330, 270, 210, 150, 105, 75, 45, 15] (+25% for Personal Truenames) = 2 Full + 2,040hp
3: 25 (35)/50 (70) = [750, 650, 550, 450, 350, 250, 175, 125, 75, 25] (+40% for Personal Truenames) = 1 Full + 3,400hp
4: 50 (65)/100 (130) = [1500, 1300, 1100, 900, 700, 500, 350, 250, 150, 50] (+30% for Personal Truenames) = 0 Full + 6,800hp

Or a total of 6 Full heals & 12,120hp of healing.

Format is: [Utterance Level]: [Healing Granted (+ Personal Truename]/[Extended Healing Granted (+ Personal Truename)] = [Array of average healing yields past free full heals]In short, we're still looking at 38 full heals to an average party member, plus about another three to four on combinations. Still way more than is really normal, even before factoring in Echo Utterance.

...Looking at the numbers like that, though, I'm starting to think the real problem is that Truenamers get a frankly ridiculous amount of healing in their own right. That's 100hp of healing for 1 extended utterance at level 10 - basically, that's Heal (ok, minus all the status healing) for an equivalent level Cleric, often 4-5 times a day more than a cleric can pull off, without eating into their other spell uses. Even under the official rules, that's still pretty damn potent. I'd be tempted to just slap the 'half health' thing on and call it a day; the access to resurrection magic (including non-cost time-reversal magic) and other anti-debuff utterances still leaves most other secondary healers (like Druids, Dragon Shamans & Paladins) a good distance behind, and it lets you pull the thing of chanting for a while to get someone out of the danger zone and saying something like 'He shall live. Come, we must let him rest. His wounds strained him greatly, and we should not disturb him.'

Kyeudo
2011-01-08, 12:37 PM
In a four man party, the role the Truenamer is expected to fill is that of Healer/Support, so he would be the stand-in for the Cleric or Druid. Having alot of ways to keep the party alive is sort of assumed by the role. Our problem is that the Truenamer is currently the best healer there is for the cost of only one feat.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-08, 12:55 PM
Actually, based on the number crunching I'm doing, they're looking like the best healers, full stop. I'm not even sure if they'd stop being the best healers if they were stopped from healing above half health, due to increased casting stamina on anti-debuff spells.

I will admit, however, I was viewing them more as a Wizard, with an unusual focus on utility.

Kyeudo
2011-01-08, 01:12 PM
Actually, based on the number crunching I'm doing, they're looking like the best healers, full stop. I'm not even sure if they'd stop being the best healers if they were stopped from healing above half health, due to increased casting stamina on anti-debuff spells.

I will admit, however, I was viewing them more as a Wizard, with an unusual focus on utility.

Other than the personal truename effects, the only change that I made to the existing Truenamer is the new Truespeak DC formula. All the healing utterances are pretty much exacty the same as what is in the book. The increased healing ability is probably a side effect of being actually able to use an Utterance multiple times.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-08, 01:21 PM
Actually, if I'm reading these numbers right, there isn't that much of an increase as far as out-of-combat healing goes. Regular, out of the book Truenamers are losing about 1-4 uses per utterance like this (losing more on the weaker ones), which in these sorts of healing numbers isn't that big a deal.

It seems that Truenamers have always been able to pull down these sorts of ridiculous amounts of healing once they were out of combat. Chant Utterance just made it a bit more obvious.

Edit: Our example 10th level Truenamer is pulling down 1995hp of targeted healing a day (as per our table below) under book-rules. Not as heavy, but still outpacing the 1500ish Cleric sacking all the spells they can pull, without effecting their other options at all.

+37 Truespeech vs DC 35 (+5 Extend), 9 successes available with Extend, 3 available without.
1: 9 x 10hp + 3 x 5 = 105
2: 9 x 30hp + 3 x 15 = 315
3: 9 x 50hp + 3 x 25hp = 525hp
4: 9 x 100hp + 3 x 50hp = 1050hp

...I never really got an answer on the notion of making the Words of Nurturing require concentration automatically. Their reverse already does, and it would eliminate their compatibility with all three of the feats in question.

Kyeudo
2011-01-08, 01:58 PM
It's starting to look like that is the best solution out of the whole set that we've come up with so far.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-08, 02:10 PM
We could give it special concentrating rules, allowing it to be concentrated on as a swift/free action, although that's admittedly probably as fiddly as just saying 'no extensions'.

Kyeudo
2011-01-08, 03:18 PM
Alright, I've made the changes to Heighten Utterance and Chant Utterance and uploaded the new pdf. Also fixed some really annoying layout issues and some typos.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-08, 07:39 PM
Yay! And now I'm happy. My only remaining worry is whether the presence of an untyped AC bonus as a magic item is a good idea or not, but that's not an issue worth kicking up a major fuss.

Kyeudo
2011-01-09, 01:48 AM
Yay! And now I'm happy. My only remaining worry is whether the presence of an untyped AC bonus as a magic item is a good idea or not, but that's not an issue worth kicking up a major fuss.

It doesn't stack with regular armor, so the only way to get any better AC out of it is to use Bracers of Armor, which kinda suck. Also, you lose all those nifty armor special abilities. I wrote it as sort of a give-me to the Monk or an Acolyte of the Ego. They need all the help they can get.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-09, 12:21 PM
I'd argue you're more likely to see wizards with Mage Armour (or derivatives) going for it instead. Monks benefit from it, but they don't have that much spare cash. People with Monk's Belts are going to use it more. Anyhow, it's not a game breaker, just a quirked eyebrow. I'd still prefer a death effect for Recitation of the North Star, but that's my geekiness showing.

Kyeudo
2011-01-09, 09:00 PM
I honestly didn't consider the spellcasters. Still, the tatoos are overpriced and don't stack with regular armor, so I don't see them becoming game breaking.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-25, 05:52 PM
OK, I've been given the (tentative) go-ahead to play this fix in a campaign, and I had my first game with the character yesterday, as a level 5 character.

Most of the session was taken up with CharGen, so we didn't get to do much, but what I did notice is as follows:

1) Early in the day, I had almost no trouble getting an Utterance up and running (I failed to drop a Dreamless Slumber, but only while rolling 1s & 2s - worst of luck, it seems >_<), even mid-battle, but that's likely to shift as the day goes on.

2) The healing was solid, but not excessive - I split 45 points of healing among two allies, one of whom was unconscious at the time. One of them wasn't below half health, the other was only taken up slightly above half.

3) The knowledge chicanery was fairly fun, although I admit I've never understood how you're meant to activate Hidden Truth (a standard action Utterance) in reaction to a reflexive roll like a Knowledge check. I only got away with it this time by activating it for a Geography check before reading a map. Still, I got a decent lump of info for the game.
Possible Changes: a) Make activation an Immediate action (Slightly counter-thematic). b) Allow a fresh roll on a given subject, as if the user had acquired more skill ranks in the intervening period.

Overall, the signs are broadly good, just with that slight niggle.

Kyeudo
2011-01-26, 02:06 AM
Glad to hear you're having some luck on the front lines. Your b) suggestion sounds the most reasonable, so I'll see about getting it worded in properly.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-26, 04:24 PM
Glad to hear you're having some luck on the front lines. Your b) suggestion sounds the most reasonable, so I'll see about getting it worded in properly.I'd simply use the phrase 'This utterance allows the user to make a single additional check to recall knowledge on a given subject.'

Yue Ryong
2011-01-31, 05:07 PM
OK, session two of my Truenamer test-run, and here's my notes.

1) The healing ran out surprisingly quickly. Being the only healer in a party of six was always going to tax the reserves a little, but I am surprised how quick it went. 1 healing utterance isn't enough to act as dedicated healer it seems; not without personal truenames backing you up, at the very least. Still, no one died, despite a very close-run thing with a beholder-spawn.

2) Inertia Surge's Freedom of Movement makes for a very effective 'screw you, grapplers' trick. Stopped me being drowned, and everything. Very useful. People were very surprised I got it so low level, but if the book thinks it's reasonable, the very short duration brings it down to 'emergencies only'.

3) The most times I got looked askance at was over the change to the targeting rules, far more than I was expecting. The ability to target without seeing isn't a big thing (to my mind), especially given the penalties & the very limited range that Truenamers work with, but the DM of the group did seem very thrown by the notion that I could try and target an ally outside of my line of sight (being dragged into murky water) with a second Inertia Surge (would have worked too, if I hadn't used it once already...). I'm waiting to see what their overall judgement on that is. Personally, given the universal nature of the magic, I quite like it, but it is something of a paradigm shift.

Kyeudo
2011-02-01, 12:47 AM
OK, session two of my Truenamer test-run, and here's my notes.

1) The healing ran out surprisingly quickly. Being the only healer in a party of six was always going to tax the reserves a little, but I am surprised how quick it went. 1 healing utterance isn't enough to act as dedicated healer it seems; not without personal truenames backing you up, at the very least. Still, no one died, despite a very close-run thing with a beholder-spawn.


That sounds actually pretty good. With only one healing utterance, you're not much of a dedicated healer, more of a side-job healer. If you hadn't been somewhat strapped for healing, that would probably indicate that the healing utterances were a little too strong. If you had a second healing utterance, do you think you would have been more than fine?



3) The most times I got looked askance at was over the change to the targeting rules, far more than I was expecting. The ability to target without seeing isn't a big thing (to my mind), especially given the penalties & the very limited range that Truenamers work with, but the DM of the group did seem very thrown by the notion that I could try and target an ally outside of my line of sight (being dragged into murky water) with a second Inertia Surge (would have worked too, if I hadn't used it once already...). I'm waiting to see what their overall judgement on that is. Personally, given the universal nature of the magic, I quite like it, but it is something of a paradigm shift.

I've found that it is some of the smaller things that make the most difference in how a system feels. I can't remember if I specifically added the "shot in the dark" targeting or not, but I was like "The truenamer doesn't have to point out anything, the universe already knows who you are." Let me know if this comes up more often than it seems like it should.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-01, 06:39 AM
That sounds actually pretty good. With only one healing utterance, you're not much of a dedicated healer, more of a side-job healer. If you hadn't been somewhat strapped for healing, that would probably indicate that the healing utterances were a little too strong. If you had a second healing utterance, do you think you would have been more than fine?Not especially. The first level one might have added a tiny bit of healing, but not especially much. I pulled down about 10 lots of 15 (or 150hp total) with the 2nd level WoN; and the 1st would have added about another 55hp. That would have gotten us a bit of leeway, but not desperately more. Which is probably about right.
That said, I'm level 5, so I'm at the last point of relying on 2nd level Utterances, so a comparison with the 1st level WoN may not be entirely meaningful.
I've found that it is some of the smaller things that make the most difference in how a system feels. I can't remember if I specifically added the "shot in the dark" targeting or not, but I was like "The truenamer doesn't have to point out anything, the universe already knows who you are." Let me know if this comes up more often than it seems like it should.Well, our game just went into the Underdark, so visibility is becoming a big issue. I do like this, though, so I do hope my DM doesn't say no.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-07, 02:59 PM
OK. I'm sorry to say, my character died due to Fish-man-Monk-attack, so I can't really offer much more in the way of help. I'll see if I can get it slotted into another game, but I can't promise anything.

Kyeudo
2011-02-07, 03:23 PM
OK. I'm sorry to say, my character died due to Fish-man-Monk-attack, so I can't really offer much more in the way of help. I'll see if I can get it slotted into another game, but I can't promise anything.

Squishy Wizard Syndrome in action. Ouch.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-07, 03:44 PM
Bit of that, bit of jumping back into the fishman's lake to try and retrieve a drowning party member.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-08, 06:38 AM
One minor point I noted was that Inertia Surge (and Freedom of Movement in general) makes swimming an entirely pointless skill to take.

Kurai
2011-02-24, 04:38 PM
I just wanted to pop in and say I really, really, really love your Truenamer revamp. I made a character for a small group I play with, but I'm not sure how far we'll come or if the group stays together at all... but I'll see how far I come. I could report back how things are working out, if you'd like.

The character is human, level 1 and, because of her backstory, focused on knowledge skills (I can't wait to get Hidden Truth), but since this is basically the first time I'm playing something remotely like a magic user, I'm kind of stumped what feats and utterances to get for later levels.

At the moment, she has Able Learner and Combat Casting. Any tips, tricks, hints, warnings..? :smallsmile:

Zaydos
2011-02-24, 04:50 PM
Oh yeah, by the way, in a (gestalt) game I've been running one of my players is a truenamer//race with +1 LA/Wizard/Wizard PrC that loses a level of casting (so he casts as a -2 level wizard). Between him and a cleric with Touch of Healing they've covered all healing just fine, and he really only uses one wizard spell (Greater Mage Armor) and lots of invocations (Sight Obscured, Inertia Surge, Shockwave). Have to say Shockwave is quite good (no save, subdual damage and prone), and so is Planar Gateway (its how they escaped being slaughtered) allowing Lv 7 planar travel.

I'll hopefully have more to say Saturday since we'll be playing again tomorrow. Just to note I love the fix because it makes a Wizard of Earthsea style character playable.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-24, 04:50 PM
I just wanted to pop in and say I really, really, really love your Truenamer revamp. I made a character for a small group I play with, but I'm not sure how far we'll come or if the group stays together at all... but I'll see how far I come. I could report back how things are working out, if you'd like.

The character is human, level 1 and, because of her backstory, focused on knowledge skills (I can't wait to get Hidden Truth), but since this is basically the first time I'm playing something remotely like a magic user, I'm kind of stumped what feats and utterances to get for later levels.

At the moment, she has Able Learner and Combat Casting. Any tips, tricks, hints, warnings..? :smallsmile:

Honestly? I'd skip Combat Casting. The +4 is nice now, but it's very rapidly going to feel a bit weedy compared to more meaningful feats as your natural ranks increase.

I'd also recommend saving up, getting your allies' Personal Truenames as quick as possible as well. It's normally not worth it for enemies, not unless it's someone you expect to spend an entire campaign covering, but an almost-free upgrade on every buff you lay on them? That adds up fast, and the sooner you get them the cheaper it'll be. If you're doing a campaign around a single location, getting the name of that location is a big plus, too.

Also, your Utterance Feats are king; There's a few non-Truenaming feats that are worth a look, but because almost all of them are aimed at actual spellcasting, rather than Utterances, the ones especially aimed Truenaming are loads better. Extend Utterance is a real staple, and Inaudible Utterance is a real help if you want any stealth.

Kurai
2011-02-24, 05:00 PM
Yeah, I was unsure about the Combat Casting, but I didn't find anything else that would be good. At the least it's a little push for the beginning, as I can't do really much with just two utterances and sucky fighting skills.

Getting the truenames fast is my prime goal. Fits that dizzy, little Ophelia just lost all her gold to a thief because of her below average wisdom. Bad wisdom = bad listen/spot. *sigh* Well, we just freshly started the campaign.

I already have my eye on Extend Utterance (because, really, it's like basic stuff to have) and Inaudible Utterance (which is just plain cool for flavor). Let's see if I survive that long :smalltongue:

Zaydos
2011-02-24, 05:06 PM
Yeah, I was unsure about the Combat Casting, but I didn't find anything else that would be good. At the least it's a little push for the beginning, as I can't do really much with just two utterances and sucky fighting skills.

Getting the truenames fast is my prime goal. Fits that dizzy, little Ophelia just lost all her gold to a thief because of her below average wisdom. Bad wisdom = bad listen/spot. *sigh* Well, we just freshly started the campaign.

I already have my eye on Extend Utterance (because, really, it's like basic stuff to have) and Inaudible Utterance (which is just plain cool for flavor). Let's see if I survive that long :smalltongue:

Skill Focus (Concentration) +3 to all Concentration checks instead of +4 to specific ones. It's slightly better than Combat Casting from my experience.

Yue Ryong
2011-02-24, 05:10 PM
As for utterances... for the most part, Truenamers do well as Utility-casters and buffers. Universal Aptitude is essential, and Dreamless Slumber has some serious teeth to it. Further ahead... it's a great idea to start layering buffs on your fellow players and making sure they don't want you kicked out for any reason. The Temporal family & a few of the healing utterances are good for that, as is Seek the Sky & Incarnation of Angels.

Analyse Item can be a great money-spinner, too and the party will never stop finding stuff to use it on. Planar Gateway is a great escape trick too, as mentioned before. And I can't deny, Motion to the Motionless is great fun - nothing like getting the Dark Lord's own throne to beat him up. ^_^

And the entire Lexicon of the Perfected Map is pure awesome

Edit: Skill Focus (Concentration) is better, but still quite dull, and there's only so much you need Concentration for. The DCs tend to run out by about 26, if not lower.

Kurai
2011-02-24, 05:32 PM
Knowing my GM, having Concentration in the beginning might not be so bad. I'll switch the Combat Casting to Skill Focus :smallsmile:

I have Universal Aptitude and Minor Wound of N., so I'll just have to decide on the rest once I reach the next level. The utterance suggestions are good, so thanks for that! And yes, Motion to the Motionless was an instant favorite of mine, once I read that :smallwink:

Still annoyed with the small pool of starting feats one might choose from. I really wanted to have Intimidate as a side-flavor of controlling stuff with barely a whisper, so I took Able Learner, which I may or may not regret later...

Kyeudo
2011-02-24, 05:57 PM
I just wanted to pop in and say I really, really, really love your Truenamer revamp. I made a character for a small group I play with, but I'm not sure how far we'll come or if the group stays together at all... but I'll see how far I come. I could report back how things are working out, if you'd like.


If you'd please. I always love hearing how this stuff works out in actual play.



At the moment, she has Able Learner and Combat Casting. Any tips, tricks, hints, warnings..? :smallsmile:

If you look in the section on the general Utterance rules, there are rules for using Truespeak to utter defensively, so you could completely dump Concentration if you wanted to. Now, uttering defensively is a -5 penalty to your Truespeak check per opponent threatening you, so Concentration does win out as a better option sometimes, but you could save alot of skill points for something else.

Also, Skill Focus(Truespeak) is never wasted early. If you already have it when you get it as a class feature, you can take any truespeak-related feat instead.

You might also consider the Utterance of the <Lexicon> line of feats to expand your repetoire of utterances.


Oh yeah, by the way, in a (gestalt) game I've been running one of my players is a truenamer//race with +1 LA/Wizard/Wizard PrC that loses a level of casting (so he casts as a -2 level wizard). Between him and a cleric with Touch of Healing they've covered all healing just fine, and he really only uses one wizard spell (Greater Mage Armor) and lots of invocations (Sight Obscured, Inertia Surge, Shockwave). Have to say Shockwave is quite good (no save, subdual damage and prone), and so is Planar Gateway (its how they escaped being slaughtered) allowing Lv 7 planar travel.

I'll hopefully have more to say Saturday since we'll be playing again tomorrow. Just to note I love the fix because it makes a Wizard of Earthsea style character playable.

Can't wait to hear how things go. Don't be afraid to tell me if something seems a too strong or wonky.

Qwertystop
2011-02-24, 08:34 PM
Just want to say, fix looks great, but I found a small typo in the PDF:

Normal: The target gains the use of the Spring
Attack feat, even if he does not meat the
prerequisites.
Typo is bolded.
I know it's minor, but I wanted to offer some kind of critique, and that's all I could find (partially because I'm not good a judging game balance)
Looks great otherwise!

Kyeudo
2011-02-24, 09:48 PM
Just want to say, fix looks great, but I found a small typo in the PDF:

Typo is bolded.
I know it's minor, but I wanted to offer some kind of critique, and that's all I could find (partially because I'm not good a judging game balance)
Looks great otherwise!

No problem. There are bound to be plenty of editing and formatting mistakes - I know I found two myself today (couple of utterance titles being the wrong font size). Let me know about any others you find and I'll make sure they are corrected the next time I update the pdf.

Question: Should Spellcraft be on the Truenamer or Academic's skill list?

Yue Ryong
2011-02-24, 10:06 PM
Hm... possibly. They're very academically oriented... I'd be inclined to rely on Knowledge (Arcane), but I could see Spellcraft getting some use... perhaps allow Truespeech to be used to identify spells, with a decent penalty.

Zaydos
2011-02-25, 12:35 AM
Question: Should Spellcraft be on the Truenamer or Academic's skill list?

It's not?

-checks-

I'd say they should. I mean they're casters, they use a different form of magic but even so. I'd give them spellcraft.

SPoD
2011-02-26, 10:31 PM
Hey, just a question: I'm not sure I'm understanding the Academic properly.

As I read it now, a 10th level Academic can memorize 7 utterances per day, plus one per 2 points of Wisdom bonus. According to the chart on the following page, he knows only 7 utterances. But then, the section on phrasebooks says he starts with 3 utterances at 1st level, when the chart only shows one. I feel like I'm missing something here, but I don't know what.

How many utterances does he know? Is it potentially infinite, like a wizard's spellbook? And if so, what does the chart on page 5 actually represent?

Any light you can shed on this would be helpful, I'm considering running a game where Truespeech is the only form of magic (and your fix may save me hours of homebrewing) but I need to understand it first.

EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out. I feel dumb. :smallredface:

Kyeudo
2011-02-27, 12:52 AM
EDIT: Never mind, I figured it out. I feel dumb. :smallredface:

Don't worry, we all do that sometimes.

The Academic is supposed to be the "wizard" of Truenaming, with a large repetoire that he can't bring to bear all at once. I honestly think the Truenamer is stronger at this point, but that is mostly because there isn't that many Utterances in the fix to draw from.

Yue Ryong
2011-03-14, 04:10 PM
OK, as promised, I've wrangled my way into some more playtesting for the game I was in before (we seem to be going through characters quite quickly there...), so hopefully any new insights I can pull together will be helpful.

The DM did seem to take umbrage with the early availability of Freedom of Movement, though, so I've been told I can't have it.

Edit: Yes, I am aware that's nothing to do with you.

Yue Ryong
2011-03-21, 06:49 PM
OK - Attempt 2, session 1.

Got to use Word of Opening this session. Opened an untrapped, unlocked door... living the dream. ^_^ Still, it could easily have been different.

Word of Nurturing (Minor) & (Lesser) are holding up passably as healing tools, but I'm having a slight shortage of other offensive options that don't dig into our healing stocks... That was going to be my main use of Inertia Surge (the Freedom of Movement thing was just a touch of fortuity, really.

Aside from that, holding up reasonably well.

Kyeudo
2011-03-21, 07:05 PM
So you've got a little weakness on the offensive front currently, but you're trying to be a healer?

I'm still working on a few things related to this fix, but work goes slowly, as most of my brain space is being devoted to fixing rules even more warped than the Truenamer - Exalted. Part of what slows me down is I'm having trouble coming up with long-term effects that a Truenamer would like that doesn't step on any one else's toes and that would affect places or objects. I used up quite a few of those in making the expansion utterances for the LoCT and the LoPM.

Yue Ryong
2011-03-21, 07:13 PM
...When I get around to finishing my Exalted/oWoD combo-platter ruleset, I may send it to you. For now, let it be known that I feel your pain. And as I said before, I struggle to think of any class who is better placed to make use of Incan (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Incantations)tations. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)

Yue Ryong
2011-03-29, 10:30 PM
OK, big battle this week. As a mostly Utility caster, I didn't do much, but I did a little. Namely, got grappled into submission by a buffed-up cleric who tried to drown me in a room that filled with water. Thank you Word of Opening... Threw a lot of wasted dreamless slumbers at him as well. There was a devil as well, but she mostly ignored me and I was busy with her summoned minions (who eventually were dispelled, so my contributions were... limited at best). I did spend most of my time either buffing people (Strike of Might is pretty popular) or using my bow (don't want to waste my utterances). Beyond that... not much to contribute. I'm getting sick of being 5th level.

Yue Ryong
2011-04-05, 05:38 PM
OK... Attempt 2, Session 3. Segment 1 - big fight, I got knocked unconscious (but not outright killed). Didn't get to do much before then, apart from drop a couple of wasted Dreamless Slumbers.
Segment 2 - I abused my knowledge of Giant to get past a trol... toll bridge without explaining what was going on to my fellow party members. Got to giggle.
Segment 3 - Roc pops out of the sky. I try and drop Dreamless Slumber on it. Good news: it worked for once. Bad News: I got it wrong, and it was right over my head at the time. 8,000lbs of bird later, I (and one other) were flat as a pancake, and our corpses were taken away for supper. Ah well... another character been and gone. Sorry, wasn't much help this time. >_<

...We did wonder about how easy it'd be to make an arcane archer-type PrC for the Truenamer, before rejecting it as rather wasteful - remaking the same PrCs for stuff. I did briefly wonder if a line should be put in to let you use utterance levels for meeting prereqs as if they were spells.

Blue Thing
2011-05-11, 05:40 AM
Hey there, thought I'd pop in and give my experiences with your fix Kyeudo.

I found it a few months ago while looking for some way to... you know, fix Truenamers. I loved the idea but the class was so broken it was sad. I've never really liked the basic casters that much. The mechanics never appealed to me, they seem more like super heroes then mages.

Well anyway. Here's what happened.


First, the character. She's a short, overweight, Catfolk Truenamer. This is a modified version from the baseline to remove the +1 LA(It was made for the Catfolk cleric by the DM) I just borrowed it. Now, this version had a bonus to dex and a penalty to Int... Not a good start for a caster. Still! I pushed on! She ended up with 16 Int. Not ideal, but I've never been one to back away from a challenge. Made her Lawful Neutral as well. She has her own personal rules she follows. Including a semi-vow of silence. Words are too important to spent frivolously.

I dumped skill points into some knowledge and craft skills. Basic equipment, plus a Caligraphy set(Craft(Calligraphy) yo) and some paper to go with. Grabbed up Skill Focus: Truespeak to make up for the lack of Int.

So far, it's lookin' kinda bad.

For Utterences I picked up Universal Aptitude and Perceive the Unseen. Mostly because they suited the character(Need to add a lot more utterances I think).

Ok. So.

My little Catfolk, Rill, gets dropped into the game.

DM: "You're unconscious missing everything but your clothes, in a cage."

Me: "Fffffffff--"


Good start.

I joined a two sessions into the game already, a player bailed, so the DM found the quickest way to drop me in... *sigh*

Rill awakens to the sounds of battle, several strange people are fighting off several attack dogs. And there's a snake in her cage. She has no idea what happened. ...Awesome. The snake, as it turned out, was the Wizard's familiar and was hiding in here 'cause it was safe. The party eventually beat the dogs down while I watched. Then they diddled around. No rogue to pick the lock. They eventually found a key and got me out, but not after failing to stop a bandit(Bandit?! What bandits?!) from escaping.

Rill gets out, gets her armor on and weapon held tightly. Then a noise. The Bandit leader had shown up! There was a short fight, I buffed the fighter with Perceive the Unseen(Reverse) and then watched. After a few rounds of getting stomped the Bandit leader grabbed up the gnome to use as a hostage. We watched as he slowly backed away, the fighter too far away to do much and the wizard out of useful spells. So... I thought...

See, the Gnome was rather prideful and had styled his hair. I asked "What would you style hair with in a midevil setting?" the answer was something like grease or animal fat. So I did the only thing I could.

I set the gnome on fire.

Whisper of Flame on his hair, set the bugger aflame and caused the Bandit leader to drop him and flee in terror. Unfortunately he dropped him down the flight of stone steps he was on... STILL! He was alive! I consider that a win! After a quick recovery period, introductions, Rill decided to stick with them for a bit in case the Bandits come back. She and the Fighter stayed outside near the wagon they had and waited with the bandits they captured(Seriously, what's going on? I was just walking in the woods and then...). Rather uneventful until a loud shout from inside. The fighter(Sett) bolted inside. Rill reluctantly followed, he WAS the only protection she'd get around here.


By the time we made it up there. The entire party, save the recovered gnome, had been incapacitated by bandits. Lovely. What followed was a series of the most sadistically low rolls I've ever seen. And the fighter went down. *sigh* The gnome ran into one of the other rooms in the building(An Inn? Tavern?) and I was left alone with some pre-corpses and a bunch of bandits. So. I did the only thing I could think of, seeing how the gnome was out of range.

I set MYSELF on fire.


See, I was told this was a low-magic setting. There was a war and it was outlawed mostly. Most people were scared of magic users. How could I leverage that? Well. Rill proceeded to shout something to the effect of "FLEE FRIEND GNOME, I'LL NOT LET THESE BRIGANDS TAKE ME WITHOUT A FIGHT. I'LL USE MY MAGICAL POWERS TO BURN THIS WHOLE PLACE TO THE GROUND FIRST!!" Then she uttered whisper of flame on herself. Or rather some paper she was holding. And then touched to her hair. And then she bellowed a psychotic laugh.

...Now before you think me insane. I DID consider the alternatives. But she's not fast enough to have outrun these guys and their crossbows. She couldn't outfight them. Setting one or two of them on fire might not have scared them enough. That display was hopefully enough to send them fleeing. Setting paper on fire is one thing. But setting YOURSELF on fire? She clearly means business! Right?

The bandits thought so. They ran screaming from her, throwing themselves out of windows to escape. Rill spent a round cooking... then another, until she heard the last one get out. THEN she ran into one of the other rooms and used the bed in there to help put herself out. Whew.

Cast Universal Aptitude on myself and tried to use Heal to stabilize some of the party, namely the cleric. Helped a bit... Until the Bandit Leader showed up again.

We got railroaded a bit, locked up in a dungeon(again in a cage*sigh*). We lost our cleric. Found some horrible experiments. Etc. Escaped. Found bodies. Crab-dude. Fish-dude. Eventually found some food and got some rest. The fighter got himself worked into a righteous fury over the bloody bodies we found and charged off somewhere. Eventually we got curious and followed. We found...

A giant Centipede. Apparently the fighter triggered a trap... Polymorph type thing. We dubbed him the Settipede. The entire party was freaked out by this, but Rill was fine. Once she figured out it was Sett, the guy who saved her that one time. She was fine. She knows that polymorph doesn't change your Personal Truename. So that means he's the same person, don't see what the problem is. She did know he was freaked out by it, so she tried to be nice. Pet him and such... kinda condescending, but what else do you do to a giant bug? Shake his hands?

Well, I managed to use Universal Aptitude for a few other things. Namely balance checks to walk through the sewer we used to escape. We fought some rats. Rested. I managed to level off all that(I got bonus XP for clever use of powers) and picked up Word of Nurturing, Minor. Used it to heal up the party. Then we escaped. I'm skipping some stuff... mostly killing rats.


At this point, me and Sett are the only party members left. The rest had to bail for various reasons. But we should be getting more next time, and a change of location. Until then we both have a week of in-game time to spend our loot and such. We also de-peded Sett, down to just two legs again.

So... uhm... I guess a lot of that was irrelevant to what you need.

Well, I guess my feedback would be...

--The addition of more stuff to choose from, heh.

--Oh, and a clarification. Does Universal Aptitude apply to raw stat checks? Like Str checks? If not, should there be a new Utterance for that type thing?

--Is it overpowered to allow access to all those cantrip level effects with a single skillpoint? Yeah, it would be hard to get much use out of them with one skill point. But that seems... off. Maybe limit some of them? Only give them with 4 or more ranks in Truespeaking? Something like that. So only the Truenamer gets them easily, everyone else needs to invest in it.

--The Item Creation Feat for Truenaming is lacking, due to the lack of items you could make with it. I guess that's not much of a balance issue so much as just needing more toys added. Just thought I'd throw it out there.



I've been enjoying the class quite a bit so far thanks to you. If it's not to presumptuous, I'd be happy to suggest some additional Items/Feats/Utterances/Prestige classes for your consideration. There's some ways I'd like to go with this class that don't exist at the moment.

Kyeudo
2011-05-11, 08:30 PM
So... uhm... I guess a lot of that was irrelevant to what you need.


It was a fun read. Glad to hear some people can actually survive a session using the fix. :smallwink:



Well, I guess my feedback would be...

--The addition of more stuff to choose from, heh.


Do you mean more utterance slots at the low level or just a larger selection of utterances?



--Oh, and a clarification. Does Universal Aptitude apply to raw stat checks? Like Str checks? If not, should there be a new Utterance for that type thing?


Raw stat checks don't seem to come up often enough to deserve their own Utterance. Adding that functionality to Universal Aptitude doesn't seem like it would make Universal Aptitude that much stronger.



--Is it overpowered to allow access to all those cantrip level effects with a single skillpoint? Yeah, it would be hard to get much use out of them with one skill point. But that seems... off. Maybe limit some of them? Only give them with 4 or more ranks in Truespeaking? Something like that. So only the Truenamer gets them easily, everyone else needs to invest in it.


I'm not sure anyone just dabbling in Truespeak gets something he's actually able to use "easily". Can he get lucky and levitate the cell key off the key ring? Yes. Will it happen often? Not really, and he only can do it once or twice a day if at all. I don't know if it really is worth the word count to proscribe the Whispers from a dabbler.



--The Item Creation Feat for Truenaming is lacking, due to the lack of items you could make with it. I guess that's not much of a balance issue so much as just needing more toys added. Just thought I'd throw it out there.


I'd add more toys, but I have trouble thinking of things that wouldn't just copy an existing magic item.

Also, there are two Item Creation Feats for truenamers - Bottle Echo and Engrave Inscription. Have you tried out any Bottled Echos?



I've been enjoying the class quite a bit so far thanks to you. If it's not to presumptuous, I'd be happy to suggest some additional Items/Feats/Utterances/Prestige classes for your consideration. There's some ways I'd like to go with this class that don't exist at the moment.

Let me know what you have. I'd love to add more stuff to this fix.

Blue Thing
2011-05-11, 11:11 PM
Do you mean more utterance slots at the low level or just a larger selection of utterances?


Just more utterances. I'll see if I can't come up with some.



Raw stat checks don't seem to come up often enough to deserve their own Utterance. Adding that functionality to Universal Aptitude doesn't seem like it would make Universal Aptitude that much stronger.


I've just had it come up in quite a few times and wondered if it would be a bit overpowered to add that into Universal Aptitude. It seems rather powerful on it's own.




I'm not sure anyone just dabbling in Truespeak gets something he's actually able to use "easily". Can he get lucky and levitate the cell key off the key ring? Yes. Will it happen often? Not really, and he only can do it once or twice a day if at all. I don't know if it really is worth the word count to proscribe the Whispers from a dabbler.


Yeah, ok. I just managed to get a heck of a lot of use out of it but I suppose it does rely on me having tons of ranks in the thing.



I'd add more toys, but I have trouble thinking of things that wouldn't just copy an existing magic item.

Also, there are two Item Creation Feats for truenamers - Bottle Echo and Engrave Inscription. Have you tried out any Bottled Echos?


I do plan on getting Bottled Echos, it seems quite good. But making things that effectively copy other existing items seems ok to me. I mean, Psionics does it quite readily. Though I would add my own twist to them.





Let me know what you have. I'd love to add more stuff to this fix.

Okies! Let me see what I can dig up

Hazzardevil
2011-05-28, 04:23 PM
I'm going to try and use this fix at some point, it looks interesting and It shouldn't be hard raising the check that high.

GenghisDon
2012-07-25, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the DL, I was thinking of making a fix myself. I'll have a comment once I read it over.

Kyeudo
2012-07-25, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the DL, I was thinking of making a fix myself. I'll have a comment once I read it over.

Actually, this pdf is a little out of date. Follow the link in my sig to the Book of Words, the most up to date version.

GenghisDon
2012-07-25, 03:15 PM
Cool, I will. After just looking it over, your early draft seems to be a pretty great improvement. Still a few things I'd tweak differently, but I'll leave the comments until I read up on the latest version.

Thanks again!:smallsmile: