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View Full Version : Improving Exotic Weaponry (3.5, PEACH, Work In Progress)



ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-22, 04:58 PM
One problem with 3.5 is that Exotic Weapons aren't worth the feat, I intend to change that. With your help where necessary, of course.

First, to fix the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe, the following feat:

Monkey Grip [General]
You can wield weapons as if they were lighter than they actually are.
Prerequisites: Str 13
Benefits: You may wield a weapon as if it were one size category smaller (Medium as if it were small, Large as if it were Medium, etc.) or one weapon category lighter (Two-Handed to One-Handed, One-Handed to light). You may not wield a non-throwing ranged weapon as a weapon category lighter.
Normal: You wield weapons at their normal size and category.
Special: You may take this feat more than once. If you do, you may change a weapon by as many categories as times you have taken this feat, including combinations of size categories and weapon categories. This feat is a Fighter Bonus Feat.

Bastard Swords and Dwarven Waraxes are no longer Exotic Weapons in any form. They are now slightly weaker than other Two-Handed Martial weapons, but the damage from those isn't from the dice anyway. Yes, they are still too weak, but at least it didn't cost a feat.

{table=header]Weapon Name|Category|Cost|Damage|Critical|Range Increment|Weight|Type
Shuriken (5)|Light|1gp|1|*2|10ft|1/2lb|Piercing
Whip|One Handed|1gp|1d3|*2|-|2lb|Slashing
Hand Crossbow|Light|100gp|1d4|18-20/*2|30ft|6lb|Piercing
Axe, Orc Double|Two-Handed|60gp|1d10/1d8|*3|-|15lb|Slashing[/table]

Shuriken

A shuriken is a special monk weapon. This designation gives a monk wielding shuriken special options. A shuriken canít be used as a melee weapon.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, poisoning them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown.

If you use the Sniping option of Hide (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)) with a shuriken you take only a -10 penalty to your Hide check, instead of -20.

If you are proficient with them,when attacking an opponent with shuriken you may throw two shuriken as a volley, using the same attack bonus and attacking the same target. Precision damage only takes affect once, as normal. (For example a third level Rogue proficient with shuriken attacks a flat-footed opponent. They may throw two shuriken instead of one, but it still only deals +2d6 in Sneak Attack damage, as if one had been thrown.) Note that Weapon Specialisation and similar effects add damage for each shuriken used.

Optional, will be removed if there is still objection to this version: If you are proficient with them, you may throw a number of shuriken to distract and scare your opponents. You may make an Intimidate check to demoralise against anyone you target with this attack, but must throw two additional shuriken to do so. These additional shuriken automatically miss.

Whip

A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals 1 less point of damage for each point of armour and natural armour bonus. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Unless you are proficient with it, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you attack with a whip.

You may make trip attempts with a whip, if you are proficient with the whip you gain a +4 bonus on the Strength check involved in such an attempt. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a whip whilst proficient with it, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isnít a light weapon for you.

Hand Crossbow

You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. If you are proficient with the hand crossbow you may dual-wield a hand crossbow and a light or one-handed melee weapon as if the hand crossbow were a light weapon. If you are proficient with the hand crossbow attacking with it does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

If you use the Sniping option of Hide (see here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm)) with a hand crossbow you take only a -10 penalty to your Hide check, instead of -20. If you are proficient with the hand crossbow you take only a -5 penalty on such checks.

Axe, Orc Double

An orc double axe is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

A creature wielding an orc double axe in one hand canít use it as a double weaponóonly one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

An Orc Double Axe encourages a continuous hail of devastatingly heavy blows. If you are proficient with the Orc Double Axe, whenever you use the Power Attack feat whilst fighting with the Axe as if with two weapons, both ends count as two-handed for the purposes of the Power Attack feat's bonus damage.

Repeating Crossbow

You may add this feature to a crossbow (Hand, Light or Heavy) by adding 100gp to its price and multiplying its weight by 1-1/2. One clip holds five bolts.

As long as the clip is not empty, reloading the crossbow is a free action that may be taken during another action. Replacing a clip is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

A repeating crossbow does not require a special proficiency.

I'll come back to this later (I still have a lot to do), but I need to sleep now, so farewell.

Some notes on the project:

I will not be powering up the Kusari-Gama, Spiked Chain or Net (though the last is the most iffy), because they are actually worth the feat (more or less).
I may or may not move beyond Core, depending on how much support this recieves.
There may well be other projects which have tried this before. Feel free to link them because I forgot to search for one and because I really need inspiration if I'm going to do this.

Please keep me focused! I look forward to the support of this wonderful community!

Edit: Thank you for the responses. Yes this is slightly out-of-key with many D&D weapons, I will move on to them eventually if necessary.

If you feel that I have misrepresented a weapon or wish to offer suggestions for a particular weapon, please do! It's very helpful. Thank you.

Changelog:

Removed unconciousness and death from shuriken options.
Added the whip.
Added text to the shuriken entry. Using the special options now requires proficiency (i.e. being a trained ninja) and you may explicitly forgo the special options if you wish. Shuriken now give bonuses to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal them and Hide checks to snipe.
Simplified the shuriken rules, including implementing shuriken volleys and making poisons worth using on them (treated as ammunition for the purposes of poisoning them).
Altered the whip rules slightly, they now deal reduced damage to armour wearing creatures, instead of no damage.
Added hand crossbow.
Added Orc Double Axe.
Added Repeating Crossbow.
Added clarifications to the shuriken (again).

AugustNights
2010-11-23, 09:12 AM
I really don't understand why someone would drop dead from fear if a shuriken was thrown at them by a masterful fighter, but a club would not have such an effect. Actually, the only benefits I can think of, that makes sense for such a weapon,is that they are super easy to conceal. Why fear effects?

Eldan
2010-11-23, 09:41 AM
Question: if the Bastard Sword is now a martial weapon, why would anyone ever use the Longsword?

AugustNights
2010-11-23, 09:46 AM
Question: if the Bastard Sword is now a martial weapon, why would anyone ever use the Longsword?

I believe they are still 2-handed martial weapons, and the Monkey Grip feat proposed here makes them 1-handed effectively. So... because they don't want to pay the feat, or because they are an elf?

Soulblazer87
2010-11-23, 09:54 AM
While I can feel you frustration with the so called 'exotic' weapons, this variant is faulty by default apparently. You entry about the shuriken displays, rather plainly, that you have absolutely no idea how or why it was used and merely depend on the 'over-romanticated' version propagated by the varius 'ninja' movies and ideals. Which is obviously wrong.

Shuriken were never meant for combat. Please keep this in mind. Instead, they were extremely usefull in striking from shadow and for poison. They were small, easily concealable and cheap (therefore impossible to trace or track down).

At no point did they ever kill or seriously wound someone except in volleys which, even then, were used to make sure someone was poisoned. In fact, it was more common for a 'ninja' (cue snicker as the term has been butchered unbelievably) to act as a courtesan (or jiggolo) and use different poisoned weapons such as thin spikes that were used for hair or tessen or even poisoned nails which were in fact thin spikes embedded via surgery under the real nail and then dipped in poison. At no point did fear ever play a part. Neither did 'auto-disarming' or concealment occur beyond anything any other weapon could perform.

Boci
2010-11-23, 10:12 AM
While I can feel you frustration with the so called 'exotic' weapons, this variant is faulty by default apparently. You entry about the shuriken displays, rather plainly, that you have absolutely no idea how or why it was used and merely depend on the 'over-romanticated' version propagated by the varius 'ninja' movies and ideals. Which is obviously wrong.

Shuriken were never meant for combat. Please keep this in mind. Instead, they were extremely usefull in striking from shadow and for poison. They were small, easily concealable and cheap (therefore impossible to trace or track down).

At no point did they ever kill or seriously wound someone except in volleys which, even then, were used to make sure someone was poisoned. In fact, it was more common for a 'ninja' (cue snicker as the term has been butchered unbelievably) to act as a courtesan (or jiggolo) and use different poisoned weapons such as thin spikes that were used for hair or tessen or even poisoned nails which were in fact thin spikes embedded via surgery under the real nail and then dipped in poison. At no point did fear ever play a part. Neither did 'auto-disarming' or concealment occur beyond anything any other weapon could perform.

I heard shuriken were also used to cover a ninja's escape since they were easy to throw whilst moveing, so maybe allow one to be thrown as part of the withdraw action?

Spiryt
2010-11-23, 10:17 AM
Since complexity and perfect representation of actual weapon like objects is main forte of 3.5....

.....

Uh, it seems that I strayed away.

Problem here is that one weapon here has something like 100 words of description and rules, while most have few numbers and additional points.

So unless all other weapons would get rewritten, it won't really fit very well.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-23, 12:56 PM
I heard shuriken were also used to cover a ninja's escape since they were easy to throw whilst moveing, so maybe allow one to be thrown as part of the withdraw action?

That would be the case for a 'ninja' or similar class. I doubt that it's an inherent ability of a shuriken though. Besides, any sneaker worth his/her salt should be able to bluff their way to sneaking. From creating distractions to throwing stuff, there's hundreds of ways to get out of a bind. Throwing shuriken MIGHT have been a very good way to make someone back the heck off, but that was because they were almost always poisoned and, with that in mind, people stayed the freaking nine hells away from shuriken. But I doubt anyone would die because a high level fighter threw a shuriken at them. I sincerely doubt it.

Alternate feature of the shuriken; because they are so easily concealable, it is very easy to withdraw them instantly since they can be stored practically anywhere on the body. Therefore, the user does not need Quick Draw to take out his/her shuriken. This makes more sense, no?

Boci
2010-11-23, 01:01 PM
That would be the case for a 'ninja' or similar class. I doubt that it's an inherent ability of a shuriken though.

I dunno, if I was running I imagine I could throw a shuriken behind me easier than a dagger.


Alternate feature of the shuriken; because they are so easily concealable, it is very easy to withdraw them instantly since they can be stored practically anywhere on the body. Therefore, the user does not need Quick Draw to take out his/her shuriken. This makes more sense, no?

Amunition already only takes a free action to draw.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-23, 01:12 PM
Yes, shuriken fly further than a thrown knife and do not give a penalty (throwing a knife is considered something like unorthodox use I think, giving a penalty). But, would me throwing a bunch of shuriken effectively conceal me? I think not. It would, of course, draw the attention to them, but it wouldn't hide me.

Yes, but shuriken aren't considered ammunition last time I checked, they are 'regular' weapons like javelins or something. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't studied PHB for a long time.

Boci
2010-11-23, 01:17 PM
Yes, shuriken fly further than a thrown knife and do not give a penalty (throwing a knife is considered something like unorthodox use I think, giving a penalty).

Nope, dagger has a range increment (same as a shurikan infact), so no penalty for throwing either.


But, would me throwing a bunch of shuriken effectively conceal me? I think not. It would, of course, draw the attention to them, but it wouldn't hide me.

I'm not saying it should conceal you, just proposing a rule that you could throw a shurikan as a free action is you use the withdraw action.


Yes, but shuriken aren't considered ammunition last time I checked, they are 'regular' weapons like javelins or something. Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't studied PHB for a long time.

They are treated as ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, cost and what happens after throwing one.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-23, 01:32 PM
Eh, my mistake then. Still, pointless though they may be (much like the blowgun for example), they don't give any special abilty in and of themselves. But you're right about throwing them while retreating, but it should extend to throwing knives as well, shuriken and kunai and all that jazz. My 'wtf' point is "why fear effects?" really. Though, in my games we use a slightly altered weapon proficiency rule that enables more or less free use of weaponry, at least for some classes. Not the best, but certainly better than 'you can't use a repeater crossbow because you don't have a feat regardless of the fact it functions exactly like a normal crossbow'.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-23, 02:58 PM
Eh, my mistake then. Still, pointless though they may be (much like the blowgun for example), they don't give any special abilty in and of themselves. But you're right about throwing them while retreating, but it should extend to throwing knives as well, shuriken and kunai and all that jazz. My 'wtf' point is "why fear effects?" really. Though, in my games we use a slightly altered weapon proficiency rule that enables more or less free use of weaponry, at least for some classes. Not the best, but certainly better than 'you can't use a repeater crossbow because you don't have a feat regardless of the fact it functions exactly like a normal crossbow'.

My reason for fear effects was that, IIRC and AFAIK, shuriken were used more to freak out the opponent because there was a whole lot of metal flying at them, not to actually damage them. The concealment is that they stop paying attention to you because they're still freaked out, shaken was for the same reason, dropping what they're holding because they'd be trying to shield their face, I may have gone overboard with the others, but it is a literally superhuman throwing them at that point. I'll remove the unconciousness and death ones, but I'll leave the others until someone objects massively.

Morph Bark
2010-11-23, 03:15 PM
For improving shuriken, it seems simple to me. I had heard there was a rule in 3.0 that you could throw three shuriken with one throw - so I had my group basically implement that in 3.5 as well.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-23, 03:44 PM
For improving shuriken, it seems simple to me. I had heard there was a rule in 3.0 that you could throw three shuriken with one throw - so I had my group basically implement that in 3.5 as well.

That makes Rapid Shot rather less useful, since you'd need a source of bonus damage dice to use either most effectively and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken is pretty much just better. One Sneak Attack is fatal at low levels, let alone more than one, and shuriken "scale" at the same rate as Sneak Attack does where another weapon is stuck at its base damage. Or shuriken are a volley and are then useful only for poisons, which are too expensive at for one dose, and now you need three doses per attack or you've wasted a feat. That's why I didn't use that. Well, that and I wanted to do something original.

ForzaFiori
2010-11-23, 03:47 PM
For improving shuriken, it seems simple to me. I had heard there was a rule in 3.0 that you could throw three shuriken with one throw - so I had my group basically implement that in 3.5 as well.

This. If the shuriken went back to the way it was in 3.0, it'd be slightly useful. Being able to throw 6 shuriken a turn, all of which are poisoned, is really epic. Even with low BaB, sheer chance makes you crit eventually. Also, putting it back to 3.0 makes it very similar to the real life shuriken.

Draz74
2010-11-23, 06:03 PM
I believe they are still 2-handed martial weapons, and the Monkey Grip feat proposed here makes them 1-handed effectively. So... because they don't want to pay the feat, or because they are an elf?

So ... why would anyone ever use a Bastard Sword? It's now strictly inferior to the Greatsword.

Morph Bark
2010-11-23, 06:06 PM
That makes Rapid Shot rather less useful, since you'd need a source of bonus damage dice to use either most effectively and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken is pretty much just better. One Sneak Attack is fatal at low levels, let alone more than one, and shuriken "scale" at the same rate as Sneak Attack does where another weapon is stuck at its base damage. Or shuriken are a volley and are then useful only for poisons, which are too expensive at for one dose, and now you need three doses per attack or you've wasted a feat. That's why I didn't use that. Well, that and I wanted to do something original.

Wouldn't Sneak Attack apply only once to an attack? Those three shuriken would only use a single attack roll, be aimed at only a single target and also have SA dice added once, not more.

Basically, their big use would shine in applying poison to a target, as said before. Plus, you could just rule that for applying poisons to shuriken, they also count as ammunition.

Soulblazer87
2010-11-23, 06:09 PM
Shuriken were never meant to be damaging, please don't continue in an avenue about damage. Shuriken are like wizards; they kick people's asses with alternate means.

Utilizing the good ol' 3.0 vesion, one could throw three shuriken per attack. Add in Rapid Shot, you get up to 7-8 attacks at BAB+20? About 3 or four of which are definite hits. We'll go for three. Each hit is three shuriken. So, it's 9 hits. Now, please, tell me, how many things do you know that will keep up making 9 saves vs poison every round? Since poison damage stacks, it doesn't have to be bad. Even a Cha poison or Wis poison would be devastating if it stacks enough since reducing any stat to 0 knocks the target unconscious. Of course, you'd probably need a specialized bag of holding to hold so many shuriken, but meh, it's doable easily.

As for the 'moving wall of steel' argument. It's not true. Sure, it was unnerving as all hells IRL. But, we're in DnD, with freakin' DRAGONS. Think a mass of shuriken will scare you more than a 50 foot tall four-legged fire-breathing flying lizard-like monster with enough brains to actuall solve The Question? No, really, which would you rather face?

Zeful
2010-11-23, 06:19 PM
Shuriken were never meant to be damaging, please don't continue in an avenue about damage. Shuriken are like wizards; they kick people's asses with alternate means.

Utilizing the good ol' 3.0 vesion, one could throw three shuriken per attack. Add in Rapid Shot, you get up to 7-8 attacks at BAB+20? About 3 or four of which are definite hits. We'll go for three. Each hit is three shuriken. So, it's 9 hits. Now, please, tell me, how many things do you know that will keep up making 9 saves vs poison every round? Since poison damage stacks, it doesn't have to be bad. Even a Cha poison or Wis poison would be devastating if it stacks enough since reducing any stat to 0 knocks the target unconscious. Of course, you'd probably need a specialized bag of holding to hold so many shuriken, but meh, it's doable easily.

As for the 'moving wall of steel' argument. It's not true. Sure, it was unnerving as all hells IRL. But, we're in DnD, with freakin' DRAGONS. Think a mass of shuriken will scare you more than a 50 foot tall four-legged fire-breathing flying lizard-like monster with enough brains to actuall solve The Question? No, really, which would you rather face?

I'd still have them deal 1 damage though, a hit will still wound (and it can still be really damaging if you get lucky (crits), but poisons are hilariously expensive (the cheapest is what, 100+ for a single dose?) so using them for poison delivery gets very expensive. Though that's more about the poison rules more than the Shuriken rules.

EDIT: I'd probably also allow the option for Shuriken to pin from range at no penalty, just so they have a really good use not dependant on something else.

gkathellar
2010-11-23, 11:47 PM
On bastard swords and dwarven waraxes: I posit that simply removing these weapons is a superior solution. They're either not going to be good enough or they're going to be too good, because there's just not enough space in between the longsword/battleaxe and the greatsword/greataxe to warrant their existence.

On vaguely off-topic shuriken nonsense: Firstly, I agree that the fear effect thing is absurd. Not only will the saves slow down the game, it's surreal and inconsistent. A little piece of metal hurled by hand makes you afraid, but an arrow hurtling through the air with enough force to punch through steel doesn't?

Secondly, shurikenjutsu is the Japanese art of throwing small metal objects, verifiably used by some Samurai (some of whom were ninja, which is kind of a catch-all term for a bunch of different things). Classically, this could include daggers, conventional darts, and steel spikes, depending on the school of fighting that taught it. An injury from one of these spikes could deliver poison, or slow an opponent enough to either escape or deliver a lethal blow while they were struggling with the piece of steel embedded in their thigh. The "bladed wheel" shuriken of movies and anime were probably never used, ever, because they would have been totally useless for anything but cutting up their user's hands.

So yeah, if you actually want to simulate shuriken with any degree of reality, you don't need an exotic weapon or a special feat. On the Simple Weapons table in the PHB, in the "daggers" row and the "darts" row? Those are shuriken.

On whips: Just use a spiked chain. I get that playing Indiana Jones is a desire some people have, because it's a desire everyone should have, but you can just reskin one of the half-dozen chain weapons that isn't actually horribly designed.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-24, 02:31 PM
Is this really that bad? I'll stop if you ask nicely, you know.

I've added some new things to be ripped to pieces and updated the much hated shuriken fear effects.

I'm going to need a lot of creative ideas to get through all the double weapons, so please help if you have an idea (or not, if you don't want to. It's your choice, really).

Soulblazer87
2010-11-24, 06:01 PM
The repeater crossbow and orc double axe are better done and very logical. So, no complaints there. I'm not sure about the hand crossbow though; when my sneakers attack, they don't leave any witnesses behind.

Eldan
2010-11-24, 06:49 PM
For improving shuriken, it seems simple to me. I had heard there was a rule in 3.0 that you could throw three shuriken with one throw - so I had my group basically implement that in 3.5 as well.

Wait, that rule is gone? I never noticed!

Eldan
2010-11-24, 06:54 PM
I agree on the fear effect: why is one affraid of shuriken, but not afraid of arrows or bolts? They are just as scary.

Anyway, the others are pretty nice, they work.

A suggestion: a two-bladed sword could give a shield bonus, like two-weapon defence. The way it's drawn makes it look like it would be good at parrying.

AugustNights
2010-11-24, 10:46 PM
Wait, that rule is gone? I never noticed!

Yes, its gone, and weapon specialization hasn't had any real purpose since.
+1 to damage? Try +6 to damage with Shurikens!
Oh, sure, its +2 now, but +4 to 2d3 isn't as fun as one could get with Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, and some nasty Shurikens of returning...expensive, and the other fighters will make fun of you...but fun!

I like the being able to throw multiple shurkien, but you may want some sort of Weapon Specialization caveat mention.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-26, 06:10 PM
I agree on the fear effect: why is one affraid of shuriken, but not afraid of arrows or bolts? They are just as scary.

The fear effects are all gone (I think), to everyone's relief.


Anyway, the others are pretty nice, they work.

Huzzah!


A suggestion: a two-bladed sword could give a shield bonus, like two-weapon defence. The way it's drawn makes it look like it would be good at parrying.

That is a good idea, which I may use. I was thinking of some kind of working with allies effect for the Urgrosh, but the Hooked Hammer and Two-Bladed Sword had me kind of stumped, as did the infamous Dire Flail.

I'll be writing more tommorow, with any luck. Thanks for the suggestions and help!

Eldan
2010-11-26, 06:13 PM
Just drop the damn flail, it never made any sense. Perhaps make it a flail with more than one head, that has at least some way of working.