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Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-11-23, 12:53 AM
In the definition of the 'Helpless' condition, there is a bit that states "...or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy..." With this clause, how hard would it be to get someone from cowering to helpless?

Greenish
2010-11-23, 06:34 AM
Tie them up or beat them to unconsciousness. :smallcool:

Zieu
2010-11-23, 06:50 AM
Tie them up or beat them to unconsciousness. :smallcool:

I agree. It seems this suggestion just can't....


-puts on shades-


....be beaten.

YEAHHHHHHHHH

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-11-23, 02:09 PM
That did occur to me but are there any other ways?

Zieu
2010-11-23, 02:14 PM
Reduce either Dex/Str/Wis/Int/Cha to 0, or disarm them-->grapple-->pin. I'm sure there's about 500 spells that do this as well, but I'm not really a magic expert.

Ravens_cry
2010-11-23, 02:15 PM
Someone paralysed or asleep is helpless I believe, as is someone with a statistic reduced to zero. NOT with nothing in that statistic, like zombies, but zero.

Ryu_Bonkosi
2010-11-23, 02:25 PM
Ok, sort of a related question. Is a saving throw considered an action?

Telonius
2010-11-23, 02:40 PM
Generally no. The conditions that cause a saving throw to be rolled are typically some sort of action (i.e. a spell is cast, an attack connects, a person is running for a set amount of time, etc).

EDIT: Note that weird things tend to happen when ability scores reach zero. You can read up on that here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss). For example, if a character has zero strength or dexterity, he probably wouldn't be eligible for a Reflex save. An intelligence of zero might make a character immune to mind-affecting effects. None of that is spelled out explicitly, but I would say that a fair number of DMs would make such a ruling.

Otodetu
2010-11-23, 03:53 PM
Reduce either Dex/Str/Wis/Int/Cha to 0, or disarm them-->grapple-->pin. I'm sure there's about 500 spells that do this as well, but I'm not really a magic expert.

Reducing attributes is the easy way indeed.

But grapple can't make you helpless.
from the srd:
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round.

Zieu
2010-11-23, 07:02 PM
But grapple can't make you helpless.
from the srd:
When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round.

Uh oh. Don't tell my DM...

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-23, 08:24 PM
For example, if a character has zero strength or dexterity, he probably wouldn't be eligible for a Reflex save.

If you can't move you suddenly run out of luck?

No, he'd still get a Reflex save. You get Reflex saves when you're unconscious. Reflex denotes luck as well as, you know, pure reflexes. How else do you dodge explosions?!

And this isn't an interpretation, this is explicitly spelled out. You always get Reflex saves. Period.

Thurbane
2010-11-23, 08:32 PM
Well, in the SRD section on Evasion:

As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion.

As with a Reflex save for any creature, evasion is a reflexive ability. The character need not know that the attack is coming to use evasion.
The implication there is if you don't have room to move, you wouldn't get a reflex save. Not spelled out terribly clearly, though...

The rules compendium says this about Evasion:

A bound creature or one squeezing through an area canít use evasion.

However, in the Rules Compendium on Reflex Saves:

You can make a Reflex save whenever one is called for, but your Dexterity or whether you can apply its modifier might be altered by the situation.
Which is saying you always get a save, but your DEX modifier might not apply.

WinceRind
2010-11-23, 08:43 PM
If you can't move you suddenly run out of luck?

No, he'd still get a Reflex save. You get Reflex saves when you're unconscious. Reflex denotes luck as well as, you know, pure reflexes. How else do you dodge explosions?!

And this isn't an interpretation, this is explicitly spelled out. You always get Reflex saves. Period.

You duck and cover, or jump forward with the explosion behind you Hollywood style.

I'd say that if you're completely helpless you shouldn't get a reflex save.

And I'm not too sure if you get Reflex saves when you are unconscious. I haven't checked, but it really doesn't sound like it would be the case in RAW.

Lev
2010-11-23, 08:43 PM
I'd recommend sneak attack with drow poison, cowering creatures lose their dex AC so they can be sneaked or suddened, and the drow poison will DC13 fort KO them.

The only difference from doing this from ranged or melee is that from range you can fire, see that they are knocked out, then move (this is contextual cheating, really)-- where as melee you'd have to move, attack and then wait for next round.

Beside them as they are helpless? Coup de gras.

Alternatively, the spell dancing chains could be used with drow poison, you'd get 1 grappler to control per level as a caster to aid in grappling, and they can deal lethal damage with their razor barbs that can apply drow poison.


But, I'd concentrate on doing something that would require them to move... like cloudkill with cloudy conjuration for instance..... heh.