[3.5] Knight Options...help me create some?

[Adamantrue]

I became a big fan of the Knight Class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) a few months back. There is a lot of back-story involved, but the long and the short of it is that while I enjoy it, I feel the Knight's problems are because they are too narrowly focused, and don't have much support.

So, I thought it might be a good idea to give them at least a taste of the support other Classes have received over the course.

R1

I'd like to brew up some Alternate Feat lists. I know a common fix is to give them access to the Fighter Feat list, but I think that steps on a Fighter's toes a little too much. I mean, a Fighter 9 and a Knight 5/Fighter 4 would have the same number & choices of Feats, but the Knight comes out ahead with more Hit Points & some other Class Feature goodies too.

Instead, I thought to just offer a few additional flavors, to add variety. I also want to key them to Ability Score prerequisites, to distinguish them from the "Generic Knight" from PH2. These are some I have so far:

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/knight-variants.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.


R1a

Racial variants would be a nice option to have also.

Example Variant: Dwarven Knight
A dwarven knight is known for his endurance and fortitude. Enemies and allies notice this relentless, indomitable spirit, which defines his presence on the battlefield.
Dwarven Racial Substitution Levels

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Fighting Challenge +1, Dwarven Knight's Challenge, Knight's Code

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|Dwarven Armor Proficiency, Test of Mettle

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Dwarven Armor Master[/table]

Dwarven Knight's Challenge: As Knight's Challenge, except a dwarven knight may use his Constitution modifier instead of his Charisma modifier for all abilities related to Knight's Challenge.

Dwarven Armor Proficiency: At 4th level, you gain Dwarven Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.

Dwarven Armor Master (Ex): At 9th level, a dwarven knight ignores the speed reduction imposed by any exotic armor that affects even dwarves (such as mountain plate). You must have proficiency with the armor in order to gain this benefit.

Add the following to a dwarven knight's bonus feats list: Ancestral Knowledge, Battle Hardened, Clan Prestige, Moradin's Smile, and Titan Fighting.

Example Variant: Centaur Knight

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/centaur-knight.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.

R2

Somebody on another forum suggested Feats that work with Knight's Challenge the same way Divine Feats work with Turn Undead. The specific problem is scaling, as a 20th level Knight has so many Knight's Challenges available. The items from MIC that work with the Knight's Challenges (the little support they did get was neat) range from additional uses of Skill Tricks per encounter, to abbreviated-duration 5th level Spells (more or less).

I could see a Feat that simulates a Shield of Vigor, for example, that grants Fast Healing 5 for 3 rounds with a Swift Action use of Knight's Challenge, for example. The problem then would be when to let it become available. 9th level? Key it to BAB, or make it so you have to be a 9th level Knight specifically (maybe make Call to Battle a prerequisite, though that thematically makes no sense).

Perhaps you could spend multiple Knight's Challenges at once (like a Cleric can with DMM) to get a more potent effect, such as a Smite-like ability? Or let the bonuses to Fighting Challenge apply to Opposed Checks (Bull Rushes, Disarms, etc...that could be a low Prerequisite choice)?

Example Ideas (that aren't overly ambitious):

Defensive Challenge [Valor]
You steel yourself against a specific enemy.
Prerequisite: Knight's Challenge class feature.
Benefit: Gain 2 additional daily uses of Knight's Challenge.
When making a Fighting Challenge, you may spend an additional 2 Knight's Challenges to have it also effect your defenses.
For the duration of your Fighting Challenge, your bonus applies as a Dodge bonus to AC in addition to its normal effects against that specific foe. You also gain Damage Reduction equal to your bonus against that specific foe. This stacks with any existing Damage Reduction you already possess.
Special: A Knight may choose Defensive Challenge as one of his bonus feats.

Facing the Many [Valor]
Your presence influences groups as easily as individuals.
Prerequisite: Knight's Challenge class feature.
Benefit: Gain 2 additional daily uses of Knight's Challenge.
When making a Fighting Challenge, you may have your bonuses apply to more than one foe with the same action. For each additional opponent, you must spend 2 additional Knight's Challenges. These additional targets must also meet the requirements of Fighting Challenge.
When making a Call to Battle, you may grant a new Save to more than one ally with the same action. For each additional ally, you must spend 2 additional Knight's Challenges.
Special: A Knight may choose Facing the Many as one of his bonus feats.

Opposing Challenge [Valor]
Inspired by a worthy foe, you act beyond your normal limits.
Prerequisites: Fighting Challenge +2 class feature.
Benefit: Gain 2 additional daily uses of Knight's Challenge.
When in a Fighting Challenge, you may spend 1 Knight's Challenge to gain a bonus on any opposed rolls (such as Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, and Trip attempts) equal to your Fighting Challenge bonus as an immediate action. This bonus lasts until the end of the turn.
Special: A Knight may choose Opposing Challenge as one of his bonus feats.

Radiance of Valor [Valor]
A fearless demeanor strengthens the resolve in your allies, and the fear in your enemies.
Prerequisites: Daunting Challenge class feature.
Benefit: Gain 2 additional daily uses of Knight's Challenge.
Your Daunting Challenge affects foes once per encounter, instead of once per day.
When making a Daunting Challenge, you may spend 2 additional Knight's Challenges to make your opponents frightened, instead of shaken.
When making a Call to Battle, you may spend 2 additional Knight's Challenges to grant your allies a new save against any failed Will save, instead of a failed save against fear.
Special: A knight may choose Radiance of Valor as one of his bonus feats.

Rallying Champion [General]
Your prowess inspires those following your direction, and they in turn motivate your efforts.
Prerequisites: Knight's Challenge class feature, Grant Move Action or Adrenaline Boost class feature.
Benefit: If you have levels in Knight and Marshal, those levels stack for the purposes of determining the bonuses you gain when using Fighting Challenge, and the bonus you grant with your Major Aura.
In addition, you may spend 2 Knight's Challenges to gain an additional use of Grant Move Action or Adrenaline Boost.
Special: A knight may choose Rallying Champion as one of his bonus feats.

I could use a lot of good ideas here too.

[edit]

Other links that may prove useful for this project...

Person Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429)
Mount Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7414)
All About Mounts Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a) Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050201a) Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208a) Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050215a) Part 5 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050222a)

[gkathellar]

The problem of the Knight is that it's not the Crusader, or this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2982).

[Adamantrue]

Nah, Knight's are fine as far as power levels & what-not, at least for my purposes. Its just the narrow path their Bonus Feats allow, combined with the minimal support they got (Crusaders had 1/3 a Rulebook, more or less, while the Knight had 6 pages & a half-dozen items in the MIC).

It also gets into the Fighter issue a bit, as there isn't really any good reasons there aren't more potent Feats available for them to take at higher levels. ToB was really a betrayal to the other non-spellcasters (Fighters specifically), as they could have engineered a lot of Maneuvers & Stuff into Feats for them, and handled the Scaling in a way that didn't hurt non-ToB Classes.

But none of that is the point (or helpful).

[Pechvarry]

It feels like I'm posting this about 3 times/week now, but Knight's Challenge DCs and uses/day based on class level really hurts. Hybrid feats would help but be a lot of work. A "master" hybrid feat which allows Knight's Challenge to use character level instead, as well as a few other benefits, would not go amiss.

For more versatility, I think it's worth looking at what other roles go well with a tank. Mostly, it's crowd control. But support works -- either buffing your allies or debuffing your foes, both make you a very appealing target.

Perhaps a feat that requires Daunting Challenge (the fear ability) that removes the once/day limitation (may need a new limitation, such as once/encounter) as well as frightening those who fail their save instead of simply leaving them shakened.

I would consider changing the Call to Battle portion of Facing the Many to simply be: you may expend 3 uses to affect all allies who can see and hear you.
This could be followed up with a different feat that requires Call to Battle, and which allows you to use that ability as an Immediate Action, as well as making it a method of rerolling any Will save instead of just those against fear.

I could go on and on with the save-rolling. One of my problems with D&D tanks is that staying close to allies to protect them just increases the effectiveness of fireballs. Having a way to grant everyone an extra reflex save (with the Knight's Cha bonus added) would be super swell.

[Adamantrue]

I could see some limited Hybrid Feats (working with the Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b), Paladin, and maybe with Fighters), but I personally don't like any ideas beyond that.

A Feat that enhances Daunting Challenge is a great idea.

Facing the Many...I disagree with letting you handle all allies for 3 (that seems to be opening up too many options with a single Feat), but I'm willing to debate that. The second idea, to make one that makes it an immediate action and working with all Will Saves seem cool though.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[Rennard]

Another option is to combine the Marshal's aura ability with the knight. This makes him a defense-oriented tank with the ability to better others while he attracts the attention of the biggest and the baddest.

Two great tastes that taste great together. Like a Reese's pentut butter cup...or a rum and coke.

I like the feats and other options, by the way... they grant some flexability to the class without overpowering it. As with all options, though, more is better.

[Ziegander]

The problem of the Knight is that it's not the Crusader, or this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2982).

Wow. Thanks, man. It's not everyday that I get randomly linked to. :smallbiggrin:

[Adamantrue]

Another option is to combine the Marshal's aura ability with the knight. This makes him a defense-oriented tank with the ability to better others while he attracts the attention of the biggest and the baddest.

Two great tastes that taste great together. Like a Reese's pentut butter cup...or a rum and coke. That is actually one of my favorite Multiclass options, so I dunno why I didn't think of it. Great idea!

I could see a Feat that let's Marshal & Knight levels stack, for the purposes of Major Auras & Fighting Challenges. And perhaps let Knight's Challenges be used to Grant Move Actions/Adrenaline Boosts (and/or the reverse)?

I like the feats and other options, by the way... they grant some flexability to the class without overpowering it. As with all options, though, more is better. To a point, but you are pretty much right.

One thing I'd like to figure out is a Racial Variant for Dwarves. Armor Master is effectively wasted on them, so swapping it out for something more appropriate would be nice. I could use some ideas for that.

[Adamantrue]

Radiance of Valor [Valor]
A fearless demeanor strengthens the resolve in your allies, and the fear in your enemies.
Prerequisites: Daunting Challenge class feature.
Benefit: Your Daunting Challenge affects foes once per encounter, instead of once per day.
When making a Daunting Challenge, you may spend two additional Knight's Challenges to make your opponents frightened, instead of shaken.
When making a Call to Battle, you may spend two additional Knight's Challenges to grant your allies a new save against any failed Will save, instead of a failed save against fear.
Special: A knight may choose Radiance of Valor as one of his bonus feats.

Rallying Champion [Valor]
Your prowess inspires those following your direction, and they in turn motivate your efforts.
Prerequisites: Knight's Challenge class feature, Grant Move Action or Adrenaline Boost class feature.
Benefit: If you have levels in Knight and Marshal, those levels stack for the purposes of determining the bonuses you gain when using Fighting Challenge, and the bonus you grant with your Major Aura.
In addition, you may spend 2 Knight's Challenges to gain an additional use of Grant Move Action or Adrenaline Boost.
Special: A knight may choose Rallying Champion as one of his bonus feats.

How do these sound?

[edited the fix]

[Pechvarry]

Quite swell. Something I was thinking about (but didn't post since at the time I thought you wouldn't want to make individual hybrid feats) was a marshal-knight hybrid feat allowing Fighting Challenge bonuses to apply to allies affected by auras... but that gets really messy with selecting targets and all that. I think your simpler solution is cleaner and better. Though as I mentioned before, I think you should also include stacking Marshal levels with Knight for determining Knight's Challenge DCs.

I probably wouldn't have them stack for uses/day, but it'd be nice to make a feat to provide them extra challenges/day. I'd go for +4/day per use, as with Extra Music feat.

You left out the word "spend" in the 2nd sentence of Radiance of Valor's Benefit text.

[Adamantrue]

Fixed.

Before I go any further with this, I think maybe I'd need to see how this plays out with a few builds, and try and decide how this is measuring up. Actual playtests would be nice, but the Holiday schedule is going to make any significant stretches of free time too much of a luxury to hope for.

I'm mostly concerned about all those "Valor Feats", and wondering on how I'm pricing it. Everything is done with 2 additional Knight's Challenges, when the whole group of effects probably need to be scaled a little differently. Even Divine Feats require more than a flat number of Turn attempts.

[edit]

Actually, anyone here interesting in tinkering/playtesting some of this stuff?

[Adamantrue]

Update...

I put together one build for this, using the Strength-based variant, breaking it down for levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. I like a lot of the results (I can post stat-blocks if people want to see it), but there are some things that concern me.

Would it be inappropriate if each "Valor Feat" also gave an additional daily use of Knight's Challenge, to help ease the new load of the more expensive abilities?

Also, it would be handy if someone was willing to be a sparring partner (it can be done through PbP), so I could test the viability beyond just theory.

Another idea for a new Feat was letting Knight's Challenge add to opposed rolls (such as Disarms, Grapples, Overruns, Sunders, and Trips) for 1 round. I still have to make a Multiclassing Feat for the Knight-Paladin combination. Still looking for a few more.

[Adamantrue]

"Brutal Commander Test Build" 25 Point Buy, Standard WBL
Knight (Brutal Commander) 20
Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 20d12+80 (215 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 35 ft
Armor Class: 42, touch 33, flat-footed 41
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+27
Attack: Magic Longsword +32 melee (1d8+12+special) Fighting Challenge Magic Longsword +36 melee (1d8+16+special)
Full Attack: Magic Longsword +30/+25/+20/+15 melee (1d8+12+special) and Magic Shield +30 melee (1d4+8) Fighting Challenge Magic Longsword +34/+29/+24/+19 melee (1d8+16+special) and Magic Shield +34 melee (1d4+12)
Special Attacks: Knight's Challenge 20/day (Fighting Challenge +4, Test of Mettle DC 26, Call to Battle, Daunting Challenge DC 26, Bond of Loyalty, Loyalty Beyond Death)
Special Qualities: Shield Block +3, Bulwark of Defense, Armor Mastery, Vigilant Defender +20, Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally, Impetuous Endurance
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Saves: Fort +15 Ref +12 Will +16 (Empyreal Armor can add +5)
Abilities: Str 24 Dex 12 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 22
Skills: Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +22, Intimidate +29
Feats: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization, Power Attack, Agile Shield Fighter, Defensive Challenge*, Shield Ward, Improved Sunder, Combat Brute, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Brutal Strike, Opposing Challenge*, Shield Charge
Arms & Armor: Magic Longsword (Corrosive Energy Surge Ethereal Reaver Starmetal Longsword +5) with Crystal of Return (lesser), Magic Armor (Adamantine Blueshine Empyreal Ghost Ward Retaliation Full Plate +5) with Crystal of Alacrity, Shield of Vigor with Crystal of Arrow Deflection (lesser) & Oil Chamber
Protection & Enhancements: Cloak of Displacemet (minor) with Resistance bonus of +5 & Charisma bonus of +6, Ring of Protection +5, Belt of Priestly Might with Strength bonus of +6, Medal of Steadfast Honor with Constitution bonus of +4, Ring of Universal Energy Resistance (greater)
Other Possessions: Restful Crystal, Oil of Greater Magic Weapon (+5) x10, Oil of Magic Vestment (+5) x10, Helm of Glorious Recovery, Reach Gauntlets, Winged Boots, Armband of Confrontation

I'm sure there is plenty of room for optimization, but this isn't too shabby. Its got reasonable in-combat Healing, has great damage output thanks to Power Attack, ridiculously high AC (look at that Touch AC) along with Displacement & DR up to 7/-, and has a good range of combat maneuvers to choose from.

I don't normally play around in the level 20 range, but this seems like an appropriate build. I could see this as the loyal (but not too bright) servant of a Lord or Mage, a protector that is more than willing to go on the offense. Not so much a Team Player, though an adequate enough leader of a smaller squad of soldiers.

What do people think?

[Pechvarry]

Looks good and nothing really sticks out as brokenly bloated stats. I also like adding the additional KC uses for each feat. As this project goes on, I'm more aware of just how good of a move it is to let these feats be taken as Knight Bonus feats, regardless of which "tradition" the Knight chooses.

I'd love to help with testing, but I currently lack the group for real life and the time for PbP (plus I'm terrified of it). Best of luck, though. I'll continue to give insight if I have any.

Also, I do think your sample build is still a good team player. Looks similar, performance-wise, to a Crusader with a lower focus on healing and a much stronger focus on damage. He may not have reach for area denial tanking, but he still makes himself quite a threat in addition to his ability to take hits for others.

[Adamantrue]

PbP isn't anything to be scared of, except for how slow it is. In the past, I've played Arena-style matches that lasted 2 days at most.
Also, I do think your sample build is still a good team player. Looks similar, performance-wise, to a Crusader with a lower focus on healing and a much stronger focus on damage. He may not have reach for area denial tanking, but he still makes himself quite a threat in addition to his ability to take hits for others. I guess its a matter of one's frame of reference. I'm working on the other two, and a Bonus Feat list that includes Leadership Feats & Fear Effects can be terrifying...no pun intended. I'm considering Multiclassing with Marshal, since I'll have a small army at the Build's disposal (not that I'll be generating it), and working with Group Tactic Feat selection.

Then again, opening up for Spring Attack with no penalty to movement in Heavy Armor, alongside Whirlwind Attack with Test of Mettle, and good ol' Combat Reflexes, Bulwark of Defense, and Stand Still is pretty cool too. This is the kind of build I'd enjoy tossing a Spiked Chain into, just to see how it handles fighting swarms of little guys. It'd only take a small dip into Fighter...which gives me Tower Shields...

...um...I gotta do some recalculating...

[Adamantrue]

"Unshakable Soldier Test Build" 25 Point Buy, Standard WBL
Knight (Unshakable Soldier) 16 Fighter 4
Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 16d12+4d10+60 (191 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft
Armor Class: 44, touch 20, flat-footed 39
Base Attack/Grapple: +20/+24
Attack: Magic Spiked Chain +27 melee (2d4+11+special) Fighting Challenge Magic Spiked Chain +30 melee (2d4+14+special)
Full Attack: Magic Spiked Chain +27/+22/+17/+12 melee (2d4+11+special) Fighting Challenge Magic Spiked Chain +30/+25/+20/+15 melee (2d4+14+special)
Special Attacks: Knight's Challenge 15/day (Fighting Challenge +3, Test of Mettle DC 23, Call to Battle, Daunting Challenge DC 23, Bond of Loyalty)
Special Qualities: Shield Block +2, Bulwark of Defense, Armor Mastery, Vigilant Defender +16, Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Saves: Fort +17 Ref +16 Will +15
Abilities: Str 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 20
Skills: Climb +19, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +28, Jump +25, Swim +11, Tumble +4, Up the Hill, Walk the Walls, Leaping Climber
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Power Attack, Elusive Target, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Bounding Assault, Cleave, Facing the Many*, Stand Still
Arms & Armor: Magic Spiked Chain (Chargebreaker Disarming Mighty Cleaving Sweeping Spiked Chain +5) with Phoenix Ash Threat Crystal (greater), Magic Full Plate (Ectoplasmic Feedback Greater Blurring Mithral Nimbleness Full Plate +5), Magic Tower Shield (Animated Arrow Catching Blinding Focused Mithral Tower Shield +5) with Crystal of Adamant Armor (greater), Talon Scepter
Protection & Enhancements: Phoenix Cloak with Resistance bonus of +5, Crown of Flames with Charisma bonus of +6, Brute Ring with Protection +5, Amulet of Natural Armor with Constitution bonus of +4, Gloves of Dexterity +4 with Strength bonus of +4
Other Possessions: Ring of Lightning Flashes, Belt of Growth, Raptor Mask, Bracers of Blinding Strike, Sandals of the Light Step, Vest of Free Movement, Potion of Enlarge Person x10, Potion of Cure Serious Wounds x10, Potion of Gaseous Form x3, Potion of Haste x3, Potion of Remove Blindness/Deafness x2

I'm sure there is plenty of room for optimization here too, as I'm really just winging it. Still, I'm kinda digging this, as its got some serious potential here for handling masses of opponents all by his lonesome.

Test of Mettle should pair well with Whirlwind Attack, Bulwark of Defense, and of course the Spiked Chain. Adding Karmic Strike & Stand Still seemed like a no-brainer, and for those times you don't feel like dealing with the whole crowd there is always Hit-and-Run (no PC should move at 40' & have an AC of 44 + 20% concealment).

This one seems like he'd be better for a party. He is more geared to occupy large numbers of opponents, diverting them away from the other PCs (as well as put the hurt on them). He wouldn't do too bad against single threats, though he not being able to match the Brutal Commander in damage output or absorption.

[Pechvarry]

If you could fit Opposing Challenge in that build, you'd have some super extra jollies (while burning KC uses at an alarming rate). Elusive Target, running through provoking AoOs and getting trip attempts, with the Fighting Challenge bonuses on the trip attempts... good times.

I feel like there's something itching at me about spring attacking in full plate, but I'm sure it's covered somewhere. Probably in the Heavy armor class features for Knight.

Back to the rate at which you're burning uses, I still think 2 extra uses per target is just too much for Facing the Many. You're already giving up a feat for it, afterall. With the feat sink, burning 1 per target seems mighty acceptable. Though a cap on targets affected may not be bad.

[Adamantrue]

Well...it is Mithral Full Plate. That has to count for something.

You probably could swap out Bounding Assault for Opposing Challenge, though you are talking about making him burn through Challenges quickly.

Facing the Many...I've thought about this. 2 Opponents with a CR of no less than Character Level-2 means you are squaring off with at least a CR equal to your level, for 3 Challenges (about appropriate), 5 if you also had Defensive Challenge apply.

4 opponents would be your level +2, and 9 Challenges (11 with Defensive Challenge, a requirement in this case), which at first seems outrageous. With that said...outside true spellcasters, how many classes (including ToB) can handle fighting 4 opponents of almost the same level at once, and be able to more or less finish the job in 15 rounds? And what is the rest of the party doing?

[Adamantrue]

"Noble Leader Test Build" 25 Point Buy, Standard WBL
Knight (Noble Leader) 15 Marshal 5
Medium Humanoid (human)
Hit Dice: 15d12+5d8+80 (205 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: 37, touch 14, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+22
Attack: Magic Shortspear +27 melee (3d6+9+special) or Magic Shortsword +24 melee (2d6+6+special) or Force Javelins +20 ranged (1d6+5)
Full Attack: Magic Shortspear +25/+20/+15/+10 melee (3d6+9+special) and Shield Bash +21 melee (1d8+3) or Magic Shortsword +22/+17/+12/+7 melee (2d6+6+special) and Shield Bash +21 melee (1d8+3) or Force Javelins +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged (1d6+5)
Special Attacks: Knight's Challenge 13/day (Fighting Challenge +4, Test of Mettle DC 23, Call to Battle, Daunting Challenge DC 23), Minor Aura +6, Major Aura +4, Grant Move Action 1/day
Special Qualities: Shield Block +2, Bulwark of Defense, Armor Mastery, Vigilant Defender +15, Shield Ally, Improved Shield Ally
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Saves: Fort +16 Ref +10 Will +16
Abilities: Str 18 Dex 13 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 22
Skills: Bluff +11, Diplomacy +20, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +31, Knowledge (nobility & royalty) +4, Sense Motive +5, Use Magic Device +11, Never Outnumbered
Feats: Shield Specialization, Phalanx Fighting, Skill Focus (diplomacy), Daunting Presence, Rallying Champion*, Leadership, Frightful Presence, Formation Expert, Combat Reflexes, Improved Cohort, Improved Shield Bash, Agile Shield Fighter, Extra Followers
Arms & Armor: Magic Shortspear (Changeling Impaling Metalline Resounding Vicious Shortspear +5) with Crystal of Return (greater), Magic Shortsword (Brilliant Energy Vampiric Wounding Shortsword +2) with Crystal of Life Drinking (greater), Belt of Hidden Pouches [containing Crystal of Acid Assault (greater), Crystal of Cold Assault (greater), Crystal of Electricity Assault (greater), Crystal of Fire Assault (greater), Demolition Crystal (least), Truedeath Crystal (lesser)], Ring of Telekinesis, Magic Armor (Called Greater Anchoring Menacing Full Plate +5), Magic Shield (Commander Bashing Variable Heavy Steel Shield +5)
Protection & Enhancements: Standard of Valor with Resistance bonus of +3, Badge of Valor with Constitution bonus of +4, Helm of Tactics with Charisma bonus of +4, Gloves of Endless Javelins with Strength bonus of +4, Ring of Protection +3, Noble Pennon
Other Possessions: Horn of Resilience...

...and then I just stopped generating it, with close to another 10,000 gp and all the Auras to go.

This is quite literally a One-Man Army, thanks to those blasted Leadership Feats. His Leadership Score could easily be well over 25 depending on his track record, and his Cohort could be 19th level. With careful choices of Auras, the use of formations & tactics, and maybe some specific choices in regards to what his army is composed of, this is probably as close as a Mundane gets to having Spellcaster-like Power (including the very real possibility of having a 19th level Spellcaster at your service).

Because of the nature of the Feats, I went with two very specific Weapons. The Shortsword is great against most styles of opponents, adding a Healing Factor as well as a devastating offense (and works just fine with Phalanx Fighting). It falls short with Undead and Constructs, which is where the Spear and Weapon Crystals come in (and works with Formation Expert, even gaining Reach if you take the Shield down to Buckler-size).

There are some real possibilities with this build, if I continue it. However, this seems to really unbalance things when compared to the other two. I suppose it comes down to what its supposed to be like at 20th level.

[Pechvarry]

Facing the Many...I've thought about this. 2 Opponents with a CR of no less than Character Level-2 means you are squaring off with at least a CR equal to your level, for 3 Challenges (about appropriate), 5 if you also had Defensive Challenge apply.

4 opponents would be your level +2, and 9 Challenges (11 with Defensive Challenge, a requirement in this case), which at first seems outrageous. With that said...outside true spellcasters, how many classes (including ToB) can handle fighting 4 opponents of almost the same level at once, and be able to more or less finish the job in 15 rounds? And what is the rest of the party doing?

I'm not sure what this has to do with it. If the Knight can survive that many foes at once, good for him. There's no restriction on the ability about your allies attacking the same foes. I'm not sure what makes you think he'll be able to dispatch these foes so easily, and how a +1 to +4 morale bonus on a couple things will change the tide of battle.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, we're looking at an ability that normally allows you to add a small boost to your attack and damage vs one target x times/day. How many more targets can you have that bonus apply to at the same time without being broken? Quite honestly, if it were simply an attack mode like Rage, adding those bonuses regardless of target, it still wouldn't be too far over the top.

If you take a level 10 Knight, he stands to gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage against roughly 8 opponents/day. Each one of these uses means one less Test of Mettle, which is infinitely more important to a Knight. If he has Facing the Many, and is fighting 4 CR 8 opponents and a CR 10 miniboss in the same encounter (he has a party! So it's not 5-on-1), he could burn close to half (3 of his 8) of his Challenges just to gain some slightly boosted stats against an extra foe. Personally, given such a character, I'd never use the feat. And that's the clincher. If the cost of using a feat is so high that it almost never gets used, you're really just at feat count -1.


///

Re: Leadership. It's horribly broken. Even a Paladin has a good chance of killing a Wizard if he has a level 19 Wizard cohort, plus an army of followers. Leadership builds are pretty neat, but don't use it as an indicator of your homebrew's brokenness.

[absolmorph]

You're making a minor mistake with Leadership. You have to be in epic levels (or taking [Epic] feats) in order to have any benefit from a Leadership score over 25. A score of 25 gets you a level 17 cohort. Not that much weaker, but it's less powerful.

[Adamantrue]

Improved Cohort. It can be 19th level. Also, I only mentioned the score because the circumstances can alter it up & down. Though its kinda interesting to hear how its handled in Epic levels.
I'm not sure what this has to do with it. If the Knight can survive that many foes at once, good for him. There's no restriction on the ability about your allies attacking the same foes. I'm not sure what makes you think he'll be able to dispatch these foes so easily, and how a +1 to +4 morale bonus on a couple things will change the tide of battle.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, we're looking at an ability that normally allows you to add a small boost to your attack and damage vs one target x times/day. How many more targets can you have that bonus apply to at the same time without being broken? Quite honestly, if it were simply an attack mode like Rage, adding those bonuses regardless of target, it still wouldn't be too far over the top.

If you take a level 10 Knight, he stands to gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage against roughly 8 opponents/day. Each one of these uses means one less Test of Mettle, which is infinitely more important to a Knight. If he has Facing the Many, and is fighting 4 CR 8 opponents and a CR 10 miniboss in the same encounter (he has a party! So it's not 5-on-1), he could burn close to half (3 of his 8) of his Challenges just to gain some slightly boosted stats against an extra foe. Personally, given such a character, I'd never use the feat. And that's the clincher. If the cost of using a feat is so high that it almost never gets used, you're really just at feat count -1. I may well be to timid about this, trying too hard to avoid DMM-style problems. Its only fair that I acknowledge this.

With that said...I'm looking at how all these Valor Feats are intended to interact with each other, and trying to do some preemptive damage control. Consider the Knight that has Facing the Many, Defensive Challenge, and Opposing Challenge (along with...say, Improved Trip & Combat Reflexes). Against 2 Fighting Challenge-eligible opponents, he burns a Test of Mettle to draw them in. 5 more Knight's Challenges in a single action to gain Bonuses to Hit & Damage against both, Bonuses to AC & DR against both, and on a whim he can burn another Knight's Challenge to gain a bonus on his Trip Attempts (and whatever else comes up) against both for the whole round, all the while drawing fire away from the rest of the party.

Sure, its costly, but with the bonus KCs the Valor Feats grant, it isn't unreasonable to expect a 10th Level Knight with the above Feats to have 12 or so Knight's Challenges available. Actually, he could possibly do that with 4 Opponents, and still have enough Knight's Challenges to make a few Opposing Challenges, though it would burn him out for the day.

Take it to 20th level, when he could have over 20 KCs available. Now, the same situation not only has increased gains (Attacks, Damage, AC, DR, and Opposing Challenges), but he could more or less pull it off twice.

The question, I guess, is where the best balancing point is. I could make the Valor Feats grant 2 (or more) additional KCs instead of 1, I could reduce the costs for some of the new options, or I could re-engineer the mechanics so there isn't so much synergy.

What do you think?
Re: Leadership. It's horribly broken. Even a Paladin has a good chance of killing a Wizard if he has a level 19 Wizard cohort, plus an army of followers. Leadership builds are pretty neat, but don't use it as an indicator of your homebrew's brokenness. The problem is that the current Feat list encourages use of Leadership. It doesn't pop up much in my games, so I never really recognized the full scope of the potential until this build.

Basically, I gotta swap out Leadership, Extra Followers, and Improved Cohort. Not too sure what to put in their place, though...it kinda messes with the theme by not having them.

Ideas?

[edit]

Goad, Resounding Blow, Formation Expert, and Phalanx Fighting seem like they could all be good choices.

[Pechvarry]

Yeah, as long as it's a party-friendly feat, it fits. In D&D, it's pretty much always better to envision a legendary commander as just someone who's a good party player (because of aforementioned Leadership brokenness).

For the feats and such: I understand what you mean, but we could write a thesis on this. The nature of spells is to break stuff. DMM: Persist makes situational "I win" buttons permanent. DMM: anything else isn't so much of a problem (though quicken can be terror on action economy). By virtue of not having spells, it's very hard for adding static bonuses to be overpowered.

Example: I personally find Wildshape rangers overpowered, because Wildshape is just that ridiculous. And yet my own bias aside, the community has generally accepted that a Wildshape Ranger is as good to a party as a Crusader or a Beguiler. But Wildshape can easily get bonuses that make Fighting Challenge bonuses weak -- a simple +18 STR form gets you much better attack/damage/opposed checks. Said form will probably take a hit to AC for size, but hey, they probably get more in Natural Armor. Moreover, said Ranger can get Morale bonuses from a party Bard! Fighting Challenge will not stack with Inspire Courage, for example. And sure, Dragonfire bards will play better with Knights, but said Ranger has even more to gain from him -- he almost certainly has more attacks than you and a more vested interest than you in making full attack actions.

At the end of the day, you will have to follow your gut instinct. I don't mean to be trying so hard to change your mind. But I DO want you to understand the perspective that +4 to everything you ever do, at level 18, is nothing compared to what a DMM:Persister can do -- even a selfish one that only buffs himself.

[Adamantrue]

I'm not to big on Wild Shape in general, much preferring the Shapeshift variant for Druids and making sure Rangers are Rangers. I should probably mention I'm a little over 30, so my tastes when it comes to the game are a little dated.

(Side Note: While the "Community" may accept it, and I'm happy to let them play the game any way they can enjoy it, I've always kinda marched to a different beat by nature, perhaps enjoying the novelty. Hence all this work on a Class most people ignore at best, and on average laugh at as they run to their Crusaders.)

While I may enjoy a thesis on this whole matter, I'm going to try and find a good compromise when it comes to these Valor Feats.

Fact of the matter is, they are saving big time on the Action Economy, so they should pay a heftier price. With all the synergy that can happen with the Valor Feats (specifically the Fighting Challenge ones), they are encouraged to burn through them, even with the increasing costs, but they only work for a limited time (though its usually long enough for the job). And they will have enough Knight's Challenges to use many of the combinations all at once, with a few to spare.

However, to give a little slack, and make them a little more valuable individually, I'm willing to bump all the Valor Feats up to 2 Extra Knight's Challenges per Feat. That may make them worth taking without the extra abilities they grant. Gives a little more room to play with them at early-mid levels, when the KCs are more limited. It isn't as though they are going to need any more than my "benchmark" in any single encounter, but it lets them stretch out their usefulness over more encounters in the average day.

How does that sound?

*

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...I have a lot of Fear-based Feats in the current Cha-based Variant, and another one I'm considering. I should probably weed them a little. Also, does the Shield Wall Feat (Heroes of Battle) stack with the Shield Wall from Phalanx Fighting Feat (Complete Warrior)?

[Pechvarry]

I think that's up to you for the extra uses. It's a toss up for whether or not you think 1-7 extra challenges is more potent than using less challenges on average. I respect your opinion, I just wanted to make it clear that this in no way comes near the more broken elements of 3.5 (wildshape, buff spells not meant to be permanent, action economy of summons, etc).

I'd like to see the fear build and any other builds you have cooked up (even skeletons -- feat choices mean more to me than final numbers) if it's not a hassle.

Also, sorry that all your responses are me. Obviously, I like the Knight too.

Re: shield stacking. Yes, those feats stack. They may have the same trigger condition, but Phalanx Fighting gives +3 (untyped) AC while the Shield Wall feat provides you with a +2 shield bonus to AC.
Keep in mind if you find other things that give untyped bonuses -- untyped bonuses stack as long as they come from different sources (such as different feats).

Also also, if you have a couple shielders intended to work together, getting them Allied Defense (if you don't mind the setting-specific Unapproachable East) is wonderful. It allows you to give adjacent allies the same AC bonus as you're getting from using Combat Expertise. So 2 shield wallers providing each other +5 AC could also take -5 CE and gain +10 dodge bonus to AC. They just... have to figure out how to move around as a unit.

[Adamantrue]

Oh, I know I have a long way to go before I actually approach game-breaking levels of power with these Feats. Its just that I want to make sure I don't even begin to approach it.

My current thought process is to take out Kiai Shout & Greater Kiai Shout, along with Leadership, Extra Followers, and Improved Cohort. Instead, it would look like this:

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/knight-variants.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.

This has more shield-related Feats than the others, but its due to the way they interact with his party (some may have shields, some may not). Goad is a substitute for Test of Mettle in a pinch, saving KCs if needed elsewhere. Ironically, I think you can recreate my previous example, but at least you aren't more or less forced into it.

I don't have a build in mind with this new Feat set. May take a little while...Holiday Season & work & all that. Since you like Knights, what would you build with these new options (keeping in mind the upcoming changes to the Valor Feats)?
Also, sorry that all your responses are me. Obviously, I like the Knight too. They aren't all to you. You have the lion's share, for sure, but you've given the most feedback too. Honestly, I just appreciate that somebody is giving me feedback, as it lets me get out of my own head & see it from a different angle...even if we don't necessarily agree.

[Adamantrue]

Also also, if you have a couple shielders intended to work together, getting them Allied Defense (if you don't mind the setting-specific Unapproachable East) is wonderful. It allows you to give adjacent allies the same AC bonus as you're getting from using Combat Expertise. So 2 shield wallers providing each other +5 AC could also take -5 CE and gain +10 dodge bonus to AC. They just... have to figure out how to move around as a unit. Multiclass with Marshal, Grant Move Action fueled by Knight's Challenge?

OK, I had to take a break a few days due to other projects, and to rethink the approach.

This is what I'm considering for the new set-up:

Example Variant: "Noble Leader"
Prerequisite: Cha 13
2nd Level Bonus Feat: Replace Mounted Combat with Battlefield Inspiration
Bonus Feat List: Replace former list with the following: Daunting Presence, Formation Expert, Frightful Presence, Goad, Improved Shieldmate, Intimidating Strike, Phalanx Fighting, Resounding Blow, Shieldmate, Shield Wall

That subtle change really alters the flavor, making the Knight seem more of a rallying force for a party, a Team Player more than a Stand-Alone combatant. He still has solo options through the various Fear effects, picking & choosing based on preferences, but the rest can really work toward group tactics & support.
I'd like to see the fear build and any other builds you have cooked up (even skeletons -- feat choices mean more to me than final numbers) if it's not a hassle. OK, I'm working with a Knight 15/Marshal 5 build for this.

Goad, Combat Expertise, Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Battlefield Inspiration, Rallying Champion*, Improved Trip, Opposing Challenge*, Frightful Presence, Combat Reflexes, Shieldmate, Hold the Line, Curling Wave Strike, Improved Shieldmate

That's the rough draft, but it includes the Art of War Minor Aura. Combining that with Improved Trip & Opposing Challenge should make a pretty tough Trip check to beat. Goad (or Test of Mettle) with Improved Shieldmate could be quite helpful for adjacent allies.

[Roderick_BR]

My suggestion is to allow the Knight to choose any fighter feat whenever he gains a bonus feat (still needing to fill in requisites, and no knight level counting as fighter levels, as usual) like you said, then you pick one of the fighter's many fixes around, so you don't need to worry about the knight taking the only trick the fighter have. Fighters do need the help already anyway.

[Adamantrue]

Nah. Unlike the majority of people, I have no inherent problem with Fighters (the sole exception being not having many Feats that are scaled to higher levels, but I'm working on that part). As such, going that route wouldn't serve my needs, as it gets back to the "stepping on their toes" issue.

I know doing that is a common fix that can work, but I actually like the limited approach that I'm using here.

[Adamantrue]

I got it! Though perhaps it could use a better name.

Dwarven Racial Substitution Levels

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|Relentless Force (medium), Test of Mettle

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Relentless Force (heavy)[/table]

Relentless Force (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Dwarven Knight's resolve drives him regardless of any obstacle. He can ignore any movement penalty due to difficult terrain while wearing up to medium armor. Starting at 9th level, he can do so in heavy armor as well.

(I hope I did that right...still trying to learn the ropes of this place)

[Adamantrue]

Wow, I haven't done anything with this since December?

I didn't think it was that long ago.

Various projects I'm working on had me re-explore these initial ideas (specifically, having to make a Knight/Marshal for a new player). Got my brain going on some new ideas.

Racial Variants

Example Variant: Dwarven Knight
A dwarven knight is known for his endurance and fortitude. Enemies and allies notice this relentless, indomitable spirit, which defines his presence on the battlefield.
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Lose: Armor Master (medium and heavy)
Gain: You may use your Constitution modifier instead of your Charisma modifier for all abilities related to Knight's Challenge.
Add Ancestral Knowledge, Battle Hardened, Clan Prestige, Dwarven Armor Proficiency, Moradin's Smile, and Titan Fighting to your list of Knight bonus feats.

Example Variant: Centaur Knight
The most successful mounted knights are defined by their horsemanship, but even the most adept riders are only trying to emulate the power and grace of centaur cavalry.
Prerequisite: Centaur
2nd Level Bonus Feat: Expeditious Dodge
Bonus Feat List: Replace former list with the following: Bounding Assault, Centaur Charge, Centaur Trample, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Mobility, Rapid Blitz, Shot on the Run, Sidestep Charge, Spring Attack

Centaur Charge [General]
You're combination of power and mobility makes your charge attacks devastating.
Prerequisites: Centaur, Dodge, Mobility.
Benefit: When using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).
When using Spring Attack, Bounding Assault, or Rapid Blitz, you may also make any or all of the attacks count as a charge. If you do, you can only make a single attack roll against any one opponent, and you must move a minimum of 10 ft in a straight line before you strike.
Special: A centaur fighter may select Centaur Charge as a bonus feat.

[jiriku]

Re: Dwarves, do recall that there are some super-heavy exotic armors in Races of Stone that cause even dwarves to move slowly. Perhaps an ACF that replaces the Medium Armor benefit with an exotic armor proficiency for a super-heavy armor, and the heavy armor benefit allows a dwarf to move at normal speed in a super-heavy armor?

[Adamantrue]

I thought adding Dwarven Armor Proficiency to the list of Bonus Feats would cover that, but that isn't a bad approach either. I was going for something simple, but I suppose there isn't anything wrong with getting more detailed.

I'd still want to keep the Dwarven version of Knight's Challenge keyed to Constitution, instead of Charisma. Maybe I should break down & give them true Racial Substitution Levels to accommodate?

[Serpentine]

I am Serpentine, and I approve this project.
(I have a soft spot for Knights...)

[Adamantrue]

Thanks (I think). Its nice to see people that are fans of the Class.

OK...let's see if I can get this to work.

Racial Variant: Dwarven Knight
A dwarven knight is known for his endurance and fortitude. Enemies and allies notice this relentless, indomitable spirit, which defines his presence on the battlefield.
Dwarven Racial Substitution Levels

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Fighting Challenge +1, Dwarven Knight's Challenge, Knight's Code

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|Dwarven Armor Proficiency, Test of Mettle

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Dwarven Armor Master[/table]

Dwarven Knight's Challenge: As Knight's Challenge, except a dwarven knight may use his Constitution modifier instead of his Charisma modifier for all abilities related to Knight's Challenge.

Dwarven Armor Proficiency: At 4th level, you gain Dwarven Armor Proficiency as a bonus feat.

Dwarven Armor Master (Ex): At 9th level, a dwarven knight ignores the speed reduction imposed by any exotic armor that affects even dwarves (such as mountain plate). You must have proficiency with the armor in order to gain this benefit.

Add the following to a dwarven knight's bonus feats list: Ancestral Knowledge, Battle Hardened, Clan Prestige, Moradin's Smile, and Titan Fighting.

Does that look better?

[jiriku]

That looks pretty good.
That looks pretty good.
That looks pretty good.
That looks pretty good.
That looks pretty good.

[Adamantrue]

Stupid stinkin'...I wonder if that was cause by my crappy netbook, or the site?

A full set of Racial Substitution Levels doesn't seem necessary for the Centaur, so I'm not going to bother there. Outside those two races, I'm drawing a blank as far as which ones would need a Racial Variant, and what to include.

[Serpentine]

You can delete your own posts, y'know :smalltongue:
I really like the idea of a centaur Knight. And as I'm semi-currently playing a Dwarven Knight I'm watching that particular variant with interest.

[Adamantrue]

(Neat...I didn't know that. I'm semi-new...ish)

Cool. Will you actually be using some of this stuff (substitution levels, Valor Feats, etc)? And if so, would you be able to give me feedback?

I'm also wondering about other Multiclassing options (like the lone feat I made for the Knight/Marshal). If nothing else, Knight & Paladin seem to belong together (I even recall coming across a Paladin-Knight "Gestalt" Base Class).

[edit]

I just ran some numbers on a Centaur Knight, and I'm realizing that enough of the Knight's abilities are based on Class Level, instead of Character Level, that it could prove impractical (outside gestalt or something).

[Adamantrue]

Let's see if this would fix the numbers issue.

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/centaur-knight.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.

[Serpentine]

Cool. Will you actually be using some of this stuff (substitution levels, Valor Feats, etc)? And if so, would you be able to give me feedback?Alas, non. She's too high level, a different sort of Knight, and doesn't have access to that sort of armour :/ And also I'm terrible at judging classes... I, personally, don't find the focus on armours especially interesting, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

[Adamantrue]

The Armor thing for Dwarves was just so that the Armor Master abilities weren't wasted on them. The additional Feat options (additional Dwarf options, or the new Homebrew ones) and keying things on Constitution were really where I was trying to help out the Dwarven Knight.

It is a good point, though...I really haven't offered any true Alternate Class Features. That may be a good place to really try and figure out some ideas, though I don't have anything particular in mind.

[Cieyrin]

I almost got a Dwarf Knight/Dwarven Defender in LG, though the campaign ended before I could really start him, since I was focusing on my main character for the most part.

I do approve of focusing abilities on Con opposed to Cha so all feasible Dwarven Knights don't have to be Gold Dwarves. Adding Dwarven racial feats to the available Knight bonus feat pool is a nice touch as well. I'll be watching in interest, with occasional insight now and again.

[Adamantrue]

Didn't quite give up on this yet.

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/knight-variants.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.

Felt the need to create two new Feats in order to get the right feel.

Now, the Constitution based one...that's going to be kinda hard.

[Pechvarry]

Expert Maneuvers [General]
Proper defensive postures can lure opponents into more vulnerable positions.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +8, Combat Expertise, Expert Strike, Improved Feint, Improved Trip.
Benefit: When using Combat Expertise, you may apply a bonus to Bluff checks when performing a feint, and Strength checks when performing a trip attack, equal to the bonus you gain to AC.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Maneuvers as one of his bonus feats.

Expert Strike [General]
Honing your skill has improved your offense as well as your defense.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, Dexterity 13, Intelligence 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: When using a light melee weapon, or one with which Weapon Finesse would apply, you gain a bonus to damage equal to the bonus to AC you gain from the Combat Expertise feat.
Special: A fighter may select Expert Strike as one of his bonus feats.


Those 2 feats are so simple and elegant, I don't understand why they're not printed somewhere (Cobalt Expertise from Incarnum comes close). I always felt combat expertise should feel more like you're an expert... at combat. However, I'd probably make Expert Maneuvers even more simple: remove the feint/trip prereqs, and just say "you gain your AC bonus from Combat Expertise as a bonus on Strength checks made to perform or resist combat maneuvers, as well as on bluff checks made as part of a feint attempt."

But I think we found in the past that, while my group tends to play at the tier 4 level just like you, I tend to like my characters a wee bit more powerful. So no problem if you don't agree.

[Cieyrin]

Expert Strike has kinda been done simpler already: Deadly Defense in Complete Scoundrel. No prereqs, when fighting defensively or Combat Expertise at at least -2, add 1d6 to your damage. Simple. :smallsmile:

[Pechvarry]

Yeah, but it's weak even early on, and doesn't scale at all. This one has some scaling (especially with Complete Warrior partially uncapping combat expertise) as well as leading into another useful feat.

As for my earlier comments, it occurred to me that if all you need is BAB 8 and INT 13, every monster intended to trip the party will simply have combat expertise and both of these, and they're even with the party tanks who possess these feats. I guess that means every monster has 3 less feats to be leap attacking with, which is a plus... but so does your Knight.

[Adamantrue]

Well...

The "Clever Guardian" is meant to fill more of a defensive, bodyguard-type roll, building on a few of the Knight's inherent strengths, so I don't think I'd have to worry too much about competing with Ubercharger-based choices.

The Feats specifically...there is a Consolidated list of my Homebrewed Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213116) that I pulled the Expert Maneuvers and Expert Strike from (recent enough that you could probably bump it up to discuss any specifics). I made Expert Strike specifically as a Power Attack alternative for Light & Finessable Weapons, mostly for TWF or Swashbuckler types.

Expert Maneuvers just seemed like an appropriate step (I think most other Special Combat Actions involve BAB, which seems counter-intuitive when Combat Expertise subtracts from attack rolls), and was actually inspired by a Monk ACF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207410) I've been playing with called Cleverly Mislead, which I just realized yesterday worked really well here. I think in combination with Bulwark of Defense, it can be a great choice for a defender that is likely going to be using Combat Expertise for other reasons (Allied Defense & possibly Expert Strike).

I am considering opening up Expert Maneuvers a bit more, to include the defensive side of Feints & Trips, but I do like the Prerequisites where they sit.
Expert Strike has kinda been done simpler already: Deadly Defense in Complete Scoundrel. No prereqs, when fighting defensively or Combat Expertise at at least -2, add 1d6 to your damage. Simple. Well, my version can be done in Medium & Heavy Armor, and when using a Shield (kind of a big deal for a Knight). It also can get factored in with Critical Hits, which is a nice touch too. But I suppose the biggest advantage is that nothing stops you from grabbing both.

[Adamantrue]

Well, its been over a year since I started this. I've been wanting to finish the 6th Knight Variant based on Ability Scores for a while now, and had 'brewed up two Feats some time back to fill out the role. But I've only just gotten the time to try and fit things together.

[edit]

Moving these to a Web Page (http://codexofhonor.blogspot.com/2012/11/knight-variants.html). It is a pain to reference these when the site is down for maintenance, especially the last one that lasted for days.