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WarKitty
2010-11-25, 01:58 PM
Is there any RAW way to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand? No homebrew please. The closest I could come was powerful build and argue for treating a medium greataxe as a small weapon, but I really doubt that's legal.

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 02:00 PM
Monkey Grip in Sword & Fist. The 3.5 update of it in CW is worse due to weapon size mechanics changing.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:02 PM
Monkey Grip in Sword & Fist. The 3.5 update of it in CW is worse due to weapon size mechanics changing.

I thought that just let you wield a larger weapon without changing size category?

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 02:04 PM
I thought that just let you wield a larger weapon without changing size category?

That's the 3.5 version. In 3.0, weapon sizes worked differently - a Greatsword for a Small character -was- the same as a longsword for a Medium, IIRC. It wouldn't break much if Monkey Grip was left that way.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:06 PM
That's the 3.5 version. In 3.0, weapon sizes worked differently - a Greatsword for a Small character -was- the same as a longsword for a Medium, IIRC. It wouldn't break much if Monkey Grip was left that way.

I need a 3.5 RAW way though, sorry. No 3.0 stuff that contradicts 3.5.

Reynard
2010-11-25, 02:07 PM
I need a 3.5 RAW way though, sorry. No 3.0 stuff.

Strongarm Bracers, Magic Item Compendium.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-25, 02:17 PM
Monkey grip. Or with some weapons (like bastardsword) it's two-handed martial, one-handed exotic, so take a feat if you can.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:20 PM
Monkey grip. Or with some weapons (like bastardsword) it's two-handed martial, one-handed exotic, so take a feat if you can.

I'm not reading monkey grip as doing that...from what I'm seeing, 3.5 monkey grip lets you wield a large greataxe in two hands, but you still have to use two hands to wield a medium greataxe? Again, I have to use the 3.5 version, not the 3.0 version. Same issue with the strongarm bracers.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-25, 02:22 PM
I'm not reading monkey grip as doing that...from what I'm seeing, 3.5 monkey grip lets you wield a large greataxe in two hands, but you still have to use two hands to wield a medium greataxe? Again, I have to use the 3.5 version, not the 3.0 version. Same issue with the strongarm bracers.

Your reading it right. Monkey Grip is one of the most erroneously read feats in all of 3.5. The feat to wield a two handed weapon in one hand is an epic feat.

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 02:23 PM
For a -2 penalty you can treat a two-handed weapon of a size category smaller than you as a one-handed weapon and the rules that say so are on page 113 of the PHB (and tell you that a Medium creature can't wield a Small dagger shortly after using it as an example...). You can do this without penalty if you have the Sleight Build racial trait, which might only exist in the RotD web enhancement for kobolds; I haven't seen it anywhere else.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:24 PM
For a -2 penalty you can treat a two-handed weapon of a size category smaller than you as a one-handed weapon. You can do this without penalty if you have the Sleight Build racial trait.

Not very helpful, unfortunately. I need to do it with a same-size weapon.

Edit: It's for an great-axe thrower build that one of my friends wants. Yes, greataxes.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-25, 02:28 PM
Uh, Strongarm Bracers some Large Bastard Swords, with EWP: Bastard Sword?

And make sure they are those... what are those bastard swords that you treat as short swords? Sun swords or something??

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:33 PM
Uh, Strongarm Bracers some Large Bastard Swords, with EWP: Bastard Sword?

And make sure they are those... what are those bastard swords that you treat as short swords? Sun swords or something??

Hmmm...Probably make it dwarven waraxe instead of bastard sword. He's kind of attached to the whole axe thing. Plus eventually whatever feat it is that lets you treat a one-handed weapon as light. It's PF, we have feats, and a dip into fighter won't hurt things.

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 02:33 PM
Strongarm Bracers do it though. You can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger, so you can wield a Medium two-hander like a Large creature would: as a one-hander. A Large creature takes a -2 penalty to do so. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 02:36 PM
Strongarm Bracers do it though. You can wield weapons as if you were one size category larger, so you can wield a Medium two-hander like a Large creature would: as a one-hander. It also says you do so without penalty. :smallbiggrin:

The ability for a Large creature to wield a Medium two-hander as a one-hander is a 3.0 rule, and not a 3.5 rule.

Greenish
2010-11-25, 02:37 PM
Plus eventually whatever feat it is that lets you treat a one-handed weapon as light.Why? Does he want to Finesse it, too?

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 02:41 PM
Why? Does he want to Finesse it, too?

TWF it, actually.

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 03:16 PM
The ability for a Large creature to wield a Medium two-hander as a one-hander is a 3.0 rule, and not a 3.5 rule.

My 3.5 PHB has this rule on page 113 under Weapon Size near the start of the Weapons section:



Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature canít make optimum use of a weapon that isnít properly sized for it. A cumulative Ė2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. Thus, a human wielding a Small dagger takes a Ė2 penalty on attack rolls (one size category different), and an ogre wielding a Small longsword takes a Ė4 penalty (two size categories different). If the creature isnít proficient with the weapon (a wizard attempting to wield a Small battleaxe, for instance), a Ė4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or twohanded weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielderís size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For instance, a Small greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a Small creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a light weapon for a Large creature. Conversely, a Large dagger (a light weapon for a Large creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a two-handed weapon for a Small creature. If a weaponís designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature canít wield the weapon at all


Does yours? I'm not trying to sound condescending, I really want to know; I've seen so many 3.5 PHBs that, to my neverending surprise, had more or less information than the ones I've owned in a wide variety of areas. I'd like to at least note down things that are different.

AstralFire
2010-11-25, 03:20 PM
I'm rolling with the d20srd rules - I never actually got the 3.5 PHB and sold my 3.0 PHB a while ago:


A creature canít make optimum use of a weapon that isnít properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isnít proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

There's a possibility this is incorrect, though the SRD does get updated with errata while the PHB doesn't, so IUNNO.

Greenish
2010-11-25, 03:28 PM
TWF it, actually.Treating it as a light weapon means you don't get PA with it.

Oversized TWF from PHBII allows you to use one-handed weapon in offhand with the same (-2/-2 with TWF) penalties as a light weapon, but you still get PA damage from it.

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 03:29 PM
I'm rolling with the d20srd rules - I never actually got the 3.5 PHB and sold my 3.0 PHB a while ago:



There's a possibility this is incorrect, though the SRD does get updated with errata while the PHB doesn't, so IUNNO.

d20srd.org has it, too, though. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize) It's in the paragraph immediately following what you quoted, just like in the PHB.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 03:33 PM
Treating it as a light weapon means you don't get PA with it.

Oversized TWF from PHBII allows you to use one-handed weapon in offhand with the same (-2/-2 with TWF) penalties as a light weapon, but you still get PA damage from it.

Yeah that's what I meant.

FMArthur
2010-11-25, 03:47 PM
Treating it as a light weapon means you don't get PA with it.

Oversized TWF from PHBII allows you to use one-handed weapon in offhand with the same (-2/-2 with TWF) penalties as a light weapon, but you still get PA damage from it.

Man, nobody seems to know what book OWTF is from. At least you got the name right. :smallwink:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-25, 03:55 PM
Why does your friend specifically want Greataxes as opposed to HUGE axes?

Greenish
2010-11-25, 03:56 PM
Man, nobody seems to know what book OWTF is from.:smallredface:

C.Adventurer, then. Checking one's sources beforehand would be silly. :smalltongue:

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 04:07 PM
Why does your friend specifically want Greataxes as opposed to HUGE axes?

Can you actually get huge axes? It's more a coolness factor though of throwing a giant battleaxe at someone.

Godskook
2010-11-25, 04:28 PM
3.5 psionics in play?

Cause Ardent + Expanded Knowledge(Expansion) would notch him all the way to huge. Combine that with oversized TWF and monkeygrip, and you've got gargantuan battleaxes to throw down-field in both hands. That *SHOULD* satisfy his blood-lust for large weaponry(A gargantuan is roughly 4 times a medium creature's size, and his weaponry would be equally large).

Lateral
2010-11-25, 04:36 PM
Actually, a Large creature is 4x a Medium creature in size. A Gargantuan creature is 16x a Medium creature.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 04:37 PM
3.5 psionics in play?

Cause Ardent + Expanded Knowledge(Expansion) would notch him all the way to huge. Combine that with oversized TWF and monkeygrip, and you've got gargantuan battleaxes to throw down-field in both hands. That *SHOULD* satisfy his blood-lust for large weaponry(A gargantuan is roughly 4 times a medium creature's size, and his weaponry would be equally large).

Psionics is not in play.

Roderick_BR
2010-11-25, 05:25 PM
You and your group could just rule that monkey grip gives the ability from both versions. You can wield a large weapon or use a normal 2handed weapon one handed (at -2, the original -4 is stupid). MG is such a weak feat, people get it just for rule of cool, there's no problem in buffing it a bit.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 05:29 PM
You and your group could just rule that monkey grip gives the ability from both versions. You can wield a large weapon or use a normal 2handed weapon one handed (at -2, the original -4 is stupid). MG is such a weak feat, people get it just for rule of cool, there's no problem in buffing it a bit.

Our DM is of the school that RAW is pretty well balanced with the exception of ToB and high-level casters.

WeLoveFireballs
2010-11-25, 05:29 PM
Using monkey grip and a large bastard sword (with proficiency) is exactly the same as using a greatsword in one hand. Same damage same crit. If you want it without penalties you are just getting greedy.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 05:32 PM
Using monkey grip and a large bastard sword (with proficiency) is exactly the same as using a greatsword in one hand. Same damage same crit. If you want it without penalties you are just getting greedy.

The problem isn't that it's the same damage. The problem is that, by RAW, monkey grip does not allow you to use a medium two-handed weapon in one hand. And he wants axes because it's cool.

WeLoveFireballs
2010-11-25, 05:34 PM
Ok use a large Dwarven Waraxe instead.
And whats the difference between a big axe and a smaller axe made bigger?

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 05:39 PM
Ok use a large Dwarven Waraxe instead.
And whats the difference between a big axe and a smaller axe made bigger?


Hmmm...Probably make it dwarven waraxe instead of bastard sword. He's kind of attached to the whole axe thing. Plus eventually whatever feat it is that lets you treat a one-handed weapon as light. It's PF, we have feats, and a dip into fighter won't hurt things.

:smalltongue: It's looking like the power throw line might be better anyways though, given the number of feats. Just want to keep the options open...

As far as the difference is concerned - damage. And more coolness factor.

WeLoveFireballs
2010-11-25, 05:49 PM
The problem isn't that it's the same damage.



As far as the difference is concerned - damage.

Is there something I'm missing here?
Any DM who allows him to do this and not let him treat stuff that is technically identical as identical is being strange.

Mando Knight
2010-11-25, 05:55 PM
Actually, a Large creature is 4x a Medium creature in size. A Gargantuan creature is 16x a Medium creature.

It's 8 and 64 by rights. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw) WotC is just horrible with math all around.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 05:56 PM
Is there something I'm missing here?
Any DM who allows him to do this and not let him treat stuff that is technically identical as identical is being strange.

Because for some reason I had the handaxe instead of the regular axe in mind. :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-11-25, 10:02 PM
Medium war axe is 1d10. Large war axe is 2d8, which is better than a great axe's 1d12. Strong arm bracers on a dwarf gets you that easy.

WarKitty
2010-11-25, 10:03 PM
Race is fixed as human, unfortunately.

Knaight
2010-11-26, 03:11 AM
Then EWP is needed. Its suboptimal, but decent. An enlarged battle axe only loses 1 damage on average, so that works as well.

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 03:18 AM
Why does he want this anyway? weapon dice sizes are... not that important in the long run.

Thurbane
2010-11-26, 03:21 AM
Why does he want this anyway? weapon dice sizes are... not that important in the long run.
Sounds like he wants it for "rule of cool" rather than mechanics. I hear people make characters that way sometimes. :smalltongue:


...so, Strongarm Bracers, TWF, OTWF, EWP (waraxe) will get you an axe in each hand that does 2d8 damage. Same deal, but drop EWP (waraxe) and swap in battle axes, and you get 2d6 damage in each hand.

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 03:30 AM
Sounds like he wants it for "rule of cool" rather than mechanics. I hear people make characters that way sometimes. :smalltongue:

I believe that's what the lesser version of the sunblade was invented for. And working with your DM rather than having to jump through loopholes that only serve to make the exercise more frustrating.

Darrin
2010-11-26, 09:47 AM
I believe that's what the lesser version of the sunblade was invented for. And working with your DM rather than having to jump through loopholes that only serve to make the exercise more frustrating.

Hmm... hadn't thought of that. Technically, a bastard sword is a two-handed weapon for a medium-sized creature without EWP. Add the Morphing property, and you could turn it into another two-handed weapon, such as a greataxe... that can be wielded as a short sword. Add the Sizing property for another +5000 GP and Strongarm Bracers for 6000 GP, and you could wield two large-sized lesser sunblades as greataxes.

Lesser Sunblade +1, 3000 GP.
Morphing +1 enhancement, 6000 GP
Sizing enhancement, 5000 GP
14000 GP x 2 = 28000 GP

Strongarm Bracers, 6000 GP.

Total: 34000 GP

Coidzor
2010-11-26, 12:12 PM
rawsome. Does that counting as a short sword thing bork Power Attack up?

WarKitty
2010-11-26, 12:26 PM
Our DM unfortunately has some rather odd ideas about balance. Hence why I'm looking at RAW ways rather than talking to him.

Marnath
2010-11-26, 12:44 PM
Our DM unfortunately has some rather odd ideas about balance. Hence why I'm looking at RAW ways rather than talking to him.

Technically, what Darrin just suggested is RAW.

WarKitty
2010-11-26, 12:56 PM
Technically, what Darrin just suggested is RAW.

That was a response to this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9838896&postcount=44) by Coidzor.

Anyways, it looks like we'll be better off going for the power throw line. Less feat intensive and he'll be more effective in melee as well then.

Darrin
2010-11-26, 05:56 PM
rawsome. Does that counting as a short sword thing bork Power Attack up?

Actually, it probably does. At least, if you're wielding it in one hand without EWP, then it would most likely be considered a light weapon.



It appears to be a bastard sword, and deals damage appropriate to that weapon, but can be wielded by a character proficient with either a bastard sword or short sword.


You can wield it either as a one-handed shortsword (PA = No) or a two-handed bastard sword (PA = Yes).

If you have EWP (Bastard Sword), then you could wield two sunswords, one in each hand. Your primary hand would be considered a one-handed bastard sword (PA = Yes), and your off-hand would be a light shortsword (PA = No).

If you had EWP (Bastard Sword) and Oversize TWF, then you could probably argue both are being wielded as one-handed bastard swords (PA = Yes x2). The text of Oversize TWF says you take the penalties as if your off-hand weapon was light, but does not actually treat it as a light weapon for anything else, thus PA should still work. (This doesn't work with Dervish, since Slashing Blades says scimitars are treated as light "for all purposes", which would include PA.)