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View Full Version : I need to get into Vecna's mindset.(4E)



Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 03:01 PM
In the D&D campaign I'm running, if it goes to the point I want it to, the Players will be fighting and killing Vecna. However, I don't know much about Vecna other than what's in "Open grave". Is there anything else I can read to help me get into his mindset? Even a couple of tropes that apply to him would help.

Joseph Silver
2010-11-25, 03:09 PM
/raistlinfanboy

Vecna's like Raistlin except not half as cool.

This is actually not that far from the truth.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 03:10 PM
No clue who that is or what he's from. Whatever he's from I probably can't afford it.

DragonBaneDM
2010-11-25, 03:15 PM
Dude.

I'm running the exact same campaign after they're done with my Tiamat campaign. They're level 27 in that one, so I've been worrying about this one for awhile.

EDIT: My point being that we can help each other a lot with this. PM me if you get a chance.

Something I've always known about Vecna is he's not your typical storybook villian. I always roleplay him sarcastically. He makes deals with the players that involve them betraying their beliefs but surviving because of it. For instance, forcing the minotaur to negotiate with Baphomet.

Also, the endgame is what he wants it to be. I'm having them go through all the trouble of obtaining his heart, etc, just to kill someone PRETENDING to be Vecna at level 30.

After that, they get to fight him, but I haven't even started that campaign yet, so I have a lot of time to think.

Oh, make Sigil in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 a big deal, especially in Paragon Tier. The Lady of Pain and Vecna have a huge rivalry. The Church of Ioun should also be one of your PCs' biggest allies/barriers depending on whether or not they want to try to take on Vecna by himself.

What's your plan? I'm going to start with a basic zombie apocalypse, but that's all I got for Heroic Tier.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 03:29 PM
Dude.

I'm running the exact same campaign after they're done with my Tiamat campaign. They're level 27 in that one, so I've been worrying about this one for awhile. If you're running the exact same campaign I'll be extremely freaked out.

Something I've always known about Vecna is he's not your typical storybook villian. I always roleplay him sarcastically. He makes deals with the players that involve them betraying their beliefs but surviving because of it.[/quote]



Also, the endgame is what he wants it to be. I'm having them go through all the trouble of obtaining his heart, etc, just to kill someone PRETENDING to be Vecna at level 30.

After that, they get to fight him, but I haven't even started that campaign yet, so I have a lot of time to think.

I like this idea.



Oh, make Sigil in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 a big deal. The Lady of Pain and Vecna have a huge rivalry. The Church of Ioun should be one of your PCs' biggest allies/barriers depending on whether or not they want to try to take on Vecna by himself. I don't have DMG 2 and I've never really been interested in sigil. Thanks for pointing out Ioun though. I haven't really elaborated on which gods are dead except the Raven queen.



What's your plan? I'm going to start with a basic zombie apocalypse, but that's all I got for Heroic Tier.

The plan is for the players to destroy the hand and eye of vecna, and get a couple of people on their side. However, they'll only be able to do that if they kill the boss of this dungeon.


right now, most of the good/neutral gods are dead because they didn't listen to Warnings from Bahamut and Pelor. (My pantheon is also slightly expanded with gods from 3.5) Asmodeus currently rules the world but he's bored of it. People still want to stab him in the back so he wants to push the reset button and go somewhere people will simply leave him alone. The players have been working for him for a while to bring this about.

They also think Bahamut is dead but it was an aspect and the person who killed it had a temporary Vaarsuvius level power boost. Bahamut was actually driven slightly insane after all this happened. He's one of the allies they're going to try and get.

EDIT: Also, Tiamat and Bahamut's backstories are similar to what they were in 3.5 Except Io is evil and tried to make both Tiamat and Bahamut evil too. Succeeded with Tiamat, failed with Bahamut.

EDIT2: I'm making french onion soup for my family so I won't be back on for a while.

tbarrie
2010-11-25, 04:04 PM
Oh, make Sigil in the Dungeon Master's Guide 2 a big deal, especially in Paragon Tier. The Lady of Pain and Vecna have a huge rivalry.
Really? I didn't think the Lady of Pain had enough of a personality to have a rivalry.

KillianHawkeye
2010-11-25, 04:29 PM
In the D&D campaign I'm running, if it goes to the point I want it to, the Players will be fighting and killing Vecna.

I assume that Vecna's death is all a part of his master plan for multiversal domination? :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 04:31 PM
I assume that Vecna's death is all a part of his master plan for multiversal domination? :smallbiggrin:

No, it's part of my one player's plan to become god of death and undead.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-25, 04:38 PM
I don't have DMG 2 and I've never really been interested in sigil. Thanks for pointing out Ioun though. I haven't really elaborated on which gods are dead except the Raven queen.

:smallanoyed: Bad Kyuubi... you don't say stuff like that
:smalltongue:

Seriouslly... Roleplay him as insane, don' t worry about abusing your DM knowledge, he is after all the god of secrets, he should know every little detail about the players, and therefore their tactics, weapons etc.

Play on the fears of the characters that kind of stuff.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 04:56 PM
Seriouslly... Roleplay him as insane, don' t worry about abusing your DM knowledge, he is after all the god of secrets, he should know every little detail about the players, and therefore their tactics, weapons etc.


Oh I know. I'm actually going to tell my one player that if he uses the character he wants to change to, who's a bit of a one trick pony, that his weakness will be exploited and he'll have only himself to blame.

FoE
2010-11-25, 05:15 PM
Back in the old editions of D&D, Vecna was first a lich who came as close to conquering the multiverse as any single being has come. Nothing exists that can match the Lady of Pain in terms of sheer power she can eviscerate gods with a thought but in the old days of D&D, Vecna came close to out-smarting her and unmaking all the cosmos, including Sigil.

He is supremely intellegient, calculating and cold. What makes Vecna especially powerful is not his physical strength, but the vast amount of knowledge that he has collected. Remember, he may be the God of Undeath, but he is also the God of Secrets.

Mando Knight
2010-11-25, 05:17 PM
don' t worry about abusing your DM knowledge,

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. If you're playing Vecna, you're not supposed to worry about abusing your DM knowledge, you're supposed to kick metagame abuse up to eleven. Delve into your PCs' sheets. Observe every strategy and tactic they use. Find every weak point they have. Plant traps everywhere, including in the plot itself. Have the PCs further Vecna's cause by fighting him. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4) Make their best shot at killing him the biggest trap of the century. If Vecna himself gets in trouble, you need to smile, chuckle, and throw out the exact kind of reinforcements and traps he needs to regain the upper hand. If the PCs come in with anything short of everything they have, crush them.

If the players don't call on Admiral Ackbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4), you're doing it wrong.

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-25, 07:12 PM
I like this! :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 07:18 PM
I like this! :smallbiggrin:

What specifically?

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-25, 07:19 PM
The whole idea of messing with the players minds with traps and traps within traps. I'm going to do a similar thing with Acererak. :smallbiggrin:

Mercenary Pen
2010-11-25, 07:25 PM
The whole idea of messing with the players minds with traps and traps within traps. I'm going to do a similar thing with Acererak. :smallbiggrin:

@Kyuubi: Can you plant hints that Acererak is working for Vecna in some shape manner or form? Convince them that there's a cult of Vecna operating inside a major centre of Ioun worship?

I would assume that if you're using any of the standard demon lords there's going to be some rivalry between Orcus and Vecna, simply due to the shared undeath portfolio- with the raven queen playing a role if she's around (I can't be sure with you having said so much about dead gods earlier)...

Mystic Muse
2010-11-25, 07:33 PM
@Kyuubi: Can you plant hints that Acererak is working for Vecna in some shape manner or form? Yeah.
Convince them that there's a cult of Vecna operating inside a major centre of Ioun worship? Sure.




I would assume that if you're using any of the standard demon lords there's going to be some rivalry between Orcus and Vecna, simply due to the shared undeath portfolio- with the raven queen playing a role if she's around (I can't be sure with you having said so much about dead gods earlier)...

Both are dead unfortunately. Plus I don't know if my players will want to kill two solos within one level.

Gralamin
2010-11-25, 07:39 PM
I'm sorry, but this is wrong. If you're playing Vecna, you're not supposed to worry about abusing your DM knowledge, you're supposed to kick metagame abuse up to eleven. Delve into your PCs' sheets. Observe every strategy and tactic they use. Find every weak point they have. Plant traps everywhere, including in the plot itself. Have the PCs further Vecna's cause by fighting him. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4) Make their best shot at killing him the biggest trap of the century. If Vecna himself gets in trouble, you need to smile, chuckle, and throw out the exact kind of reinforcements and traps he needs to regain the upper hand. If the PCs come in with anything short of everything they have, crush them.

If the players don't call on Admiral Ackbar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddAi8FF3F4), you're doing it wrong.

This is the right idea. Also, remember, the players may very well meet Vecna, or someone pretending to be him frequently - the God of Secrets already knows precisely how to take you down.

Be wary though, if a player asks you if Vecna could know a secret no one knows, they are planning on a memory gambit. Smartly answer "Yes, yes he could", and smash their puny gambit into the ground.

Fawsto
2010-11-25, 08:09 PM
In my current game the DM stated that Vecna was the greatest Wizard ever born. He caused all 4 pantheons (we use them all) to infight.

Right now we don't know if this caused all gods to die and the big four (Zeus, Pelor, Odin and Rah) to be mind-raped by a epic leveled mother brain.

We also do not know if this info is correct.

We are already feeling that no option we take will be the correct one.

You know. God of secrets. Deal with it.

Just my experience with the Old Lich.

Urpriest
2010-11-25, 08:41 PM
Tropewise, Vecna is a pretty good example of Magnificent Bastard...but he's also got a history of paranoia. He puts a very high priority on keeping his secrets, despite his lack of respect for the secrets of others. He shouldn't give away information lightly.

Also, there was some blather early on about Vecna believing in an overdeity of magic that he called the Serpent, and tapping into this deity's power.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-25, 09:04 PM
@Kyuubi: Can you plant hints that Acererak is working for Vecna in some shape manner or form? Convince them that there's a cult of Vecna operating inside a major centre of Ioun worship?

I would assume that if you're using any of the standard demon lords there's going to be some rivalry between Orcus and Vecna, simply due to the shared undeath portfolio- with the raven queen playing a role if she's around (I can't be sure with you having said so much about dead gods earlier)...

Actually I think Acerak did work for vecna when he was alive.... IIRC he learned the necromantic arts from Vecna himself (when he was still still alive)

Katana_Geldar
2010-11-25, 09:18 PM
Acererak was Vecna's apprentice and him becoming a Demi-Lich was his way of trying to become more like his Master...and he wants to take Vecna's place.

Acererak also worked with some Orcus cultists at one stage.

DragonBaneDM
2010-11-26, 12:13 AM
New idea. Something I'm gonna try.

Make it seem like player's only hope to win is to travel back in time and stop Vecna from becoming a Lich.

Them killing him, and the curse one of his agents put on some of the players, is the reason he's able to become one in the first place.

Or something along those lines. Very David Xanatos like.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-29, 07:09 PM
New idea. Something I'm gonna try.

Make it seem like player's only hope to win is to travel back in time and stop Vecna from becoming a Lich.

Them killing him, and the curse one of his agents put on some of the players, is the reason he's able to become one in the first place.

Or something along those lines. Very David Xanatos like.

I don't know. I'm not a big fan of time travel shenanigans. They make my brain hurt.

Sinfonian
2010-11-29, 07:21 PM
I don't know. I'm not a big fan of time travel shenanigans. They make my brain hurt.

"Marty...you've got to start thinking fourth dimensionally!"
/DocBrown

Lilithgow
2010-11-29, 07:36 PM
"Marty...you've got to start thinking fourth dimensionally!"
/DocBrown

For Vecna, you better be thinking at least seventh dimensionally.

In 3.5 Deities and Demigods - Vecna's clerics believe that every being - god, mortal, universe has a secret that will utterly destroy that person. This is a seed of darkness that is the key to undoing one's enemies.

So find your player's weaknesses. Not just mechanical, that's trite and obvious. Not the you shouldn't do that as well...

Find the thing that will make the Paladin throw away his code. Find the temptation that will drive that warlock over the edge. Find everyone's deepest, darkest secret. And then poke them with it.

Seriously, I love Vecna.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-29, 08:17 PM
Tropes that apply to vecna... at least I think these should. Anyone wanna strike these off the list, or add some more?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChessmaster
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManipulativeBastard
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosSpeedChess
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeAThirdOption
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilPlan
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolicalMastermind
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList

Mystic Muse
2010-12-02, 04:49 PM
Find the thing that will make the Paladin throw away his code. Find the temptation that will drive that warlock over the edge. Find everyone's deepest, darkest secret. And then poke them with it.

Seriously, I love Vecna.

I don't think any of my players have anything like that but they have a few other things that'll be tempting.

Artificer wants to rule the world
Necromancer (3rd party class) wants to become god of death and undead
Unknown (I'd rather not explain) wants to be the richest in the world.
Sorcerer doesn't really want anything unfortunately.