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WarKitty
2010-11-27, 03:49 PM
I'm trying to re-stat my old druid as a party antagonist. He was focused primarily on melee wild shape, using spells for buffs and healing. I'm trying to take the build up to level 20. Currently I'm at druid6/fighter2. Half-elf race; ability scores Str: 18 Dex: 15 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 18 Cha: 11. NE alignment, wolf companion. Feats/skills flexible.

I'm looking for a good PrC for this, since I don't really need high-level spells. All 3.5 material available. Suggestions?

Nyarai
2010-11-27, 04:00 PM
Master of Many Forms (CAdv) is a hoot. My friend killed a Big Bad in a Dragonlance game by falling on him while Wildshaped into a polar bear (not MoMF exclusive, but still fun). :smallbiggrin:

Though MoMF does let you get dragon shape at... some point. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also heard good things about Warshaper. Might be worth checking it out.

TehLivingDeath
2010-11-27, 04:20 PM
I'm not a big fan of Druid/MoMF builds. Druid 20 or Wildshape Ranger/MoMF are better options IMO, depending on what you're looking for. If you're hell bent on casting spells, I'd recomend taking Druid all the way (Planar Sheppard if your DM is insane enough). Higher level spells, improved caster level and an animal companion sharing buffs usually outweigh the versatility MoMF brings to the table, in terms of sheer powa.

Glimbur
2010-11-27, 04:21 PM
Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior isn't bad. +3 to all natural weapon damage, +5 natural armor, and Fast Healing or DR/- for your 5 levels, plus 2 levels of casting progression. And, unlike Warshaper, it stacks with Druid for the HD of critter you can turn in to.

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 04:57 PM
Master of Many Forms (CAdv) is a hoot. My friend killed a Big Bad in a Dragonlance game by falling on him while Wildshaped into a polar bear (not MoMF exclusive, but still fun). :smallbiggrin:

Though MoMF does let you get dragon shape at... some point. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also heard good things about Warshaper. Might be worth checking it out.

Thanks.


I'm not a big fan of Druid/MoMF builds. Druid 20 or Wildshape Ranger/MoMF are better options IMO, depending on what you're looking for. If you're hell bent on casting spells, I'd recomend taking Druid all the way (Planar Sheppard if your DM is insane enough). Higher level spells, improved caster level and an animal companion sharing buffs usually outweigh the versatility MoMF brings to the table, in terms of sheer powa.

Well, the whole idea is to maximize the whole "I turn into a wolf and eat you" thing.


Nature's Warrior from Complete Warrior isn't bad. +3 to all natural weapon damage, +5 natural armor, and Fast Healing or DR/- for your 5 levels, plus 2 levels of casting progression. And, unlike Warshaper, it stacks with Druid for the HD of critter you can turn in to.

Ooo this looks good, I'll check it out.

grimbold
2010-11-27, 04:58 PM
MMoF is the way to go
turning into a dragon is just that awesome

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 05:30 PM
Looks like warshaper is what I'm after, since I'm looking to maximize existing wildshape instead of gain new forms. Thanks everyone!

TehLivingDeath
2010-11-27, 05:31 PM
edit: looks like your questions are already answered. This post was gonna be irrelevant.

Gnaeus
2010-11-27, 05:45 PM
Drop the fighter. Take one level of monk. Two if you absolutely have to. Wis to AC helps the druid a lot. Free Improved Grapple doesn't hurt.

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 06:00 PM
Drop the fighter. Take one level of monk. Two if you absolutely have to. Wis to AC helps the druid a lot. Free Improved Grapple doesn't hurt.

The levels listed in the original post are not changeable. My wisdom isn't that spectacular anyway since I'm not focusing on casting - it's only an 18, I'll get better results with some wild dragonhide fullplate. And I'm sticking with wolf forms for RP reasons and going wolf shaman.

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 06:52 PM
While I'm at it, any good buff spells other than the obvious magic fang/animal growth/wombat's attributes? I'm trying to make this a good tough fight that can be level-scaled from about level 13 on up (druid level, not the PC's level).

TehLivingDeath
2010-11-27, 07:02 PM
Venomfire, but it's broken and would force you to drop wolf form. Go with the Bite of X series of spells.

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 10:55 PM
Venomfire, but it's broken and would force you to drop wolf form. Go with the Bite of X series of spells.

Where are those again? I'm still going to have 6 levels of spells to cast, might as well go all out.

bokodasu
2010-11-27, 11:16 PM
You can find them in the Spell Compendium. (My DM nixed them. SIGH.)

WarKitty
2010-11-27, 11:37 PM
You can find them in the Spell Compendium. (My DM nixed them. SIGH.)

Oh of course, the one book I'm not allowed to use. :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-11-27, 11:43 PM
The levels listed in the original post are not changeable. My wisdom isn't that spectacular anyway since I'm not focusing on casting - it's only an 18, I'll get better results with some wild dragonhide fullplate. And I'm sticking with wolf forms for RP reasons and going wolf shaman.

Is that the wisdom score with items or without items?

A single bite attack even on a full attack? :smallyuk: Definitely need warshaper then. And improved natural attack. And a necklace of natural attacks with a wilding clasp. Since it sounds like you won't use a mouthpick weapon. Monk would've been nice for the additional attacks it gave in addition to the AC boost here. :/

Hmm. Can't think of any good weapon properties for a single bite attack... If weapon augment crystals work with a necklace of natural attacks, then you'll want the one that gives you ghost touch and probably the one that gives you extra damage against constructs.


Oh of course, the one book I'm not allowed to use. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, you're taking one of your old characters and giving it to the DM as something you're going to fight yourself? :smallconfused:

Can you buy off the LA of templates?

Urpriest
2010-11-27, 11:58 PM
While I'm at it, any good buff spells other than the obvious magic fang/animal growth/wombat's attributes? I'm trying to make this a good tough fight that can be level-scaled from about level 13 on up (druid level, not the PC's level).

Does animal growth work for PF wildshape? (It doesn't work in 3.5). Also, if wombat's attributes is not just a joking reference to bull's strength et al I will be very pleased.

WarKitty
2010-11-28, 12:07 AM
Is that the wisdom score with items or without items?

A single bite attack even on a full attack? :smallyuk: Definitely need warshaper then. And improved natural attack. And a necklace of natural attacks with a wilding clasp. Since it sounds like you won't use a mouthpick weapon. Monk would've been nice for the additional attacks it gave in addition to the AC boost here. :/

PF doesn't require wilding clasps. Wisdom is without items, but I'm not sure there's any real need to boost wisdom on a character that's not supposed to play as a primary caster. Boosting strength and constitution would be more effective.


Hmm. Can't think of any good weapon properties for a single bite attack... If weapon augment crystals work with a necklace of natural attacks, then you'll want the one that gives you ghost touch and probably the one that gives you extra damage against constructs.

Should work with the necklace.


Wait, you're taking one of your old characters and giving it to the DM as something you're going to fight yourself? :smallconfused:

Yeah pretty much. It's supposed to be a plot point since I'm currently playing as his heir, whose chosen to go for Exalted NG against his NE. Since she is his heir, mixing OOC and IC knowledge shouldn't be as big an issue.


Can you buy off the LA of templates?

No.


Does animal growth work for PF wildshape? (It doesn't work in 3.5).

Hmm, doesn't say either way. I'm going to pretend it does.:smalltongue: Or find some other way of enhancing size to compensate for the lack of a good canine form.


Also, if wombat's attributes is not just a joking reference to bull's strength et al I will be very pleased.

It's a reference to bull's strength et al.

Coidzor
2010-11-28, 12:35 AM
Heh. A natural 18 without putting points into it. On a caster that's not supposed to be that castery. I have to admit, I'm jealous of your rolling skills now. :smallamused:

Boosting wisdom also helps with the saves being lowered thanks to your levels in Luchador. Then again, so does a natural +4 bonus... which considering ToB isn't out if SpC is your only banned book, isn't too bad for an unarmed swordsage dip, +4 to AC from wisdom, not that much more for a +2 wisdom item on the necklace of natural attacks to give a +5 to AC that applies to touch attacks, IIRC and would stack with light armor or clothing turned into armor.

I don't know what maneuvers a wolf could do or if your DM would even allow it to deliver unarmed strike (but who doesn't love hong kong fuey?), but as I said earlier, a source of unarmed strike could definitely help. As otherwise it's a single attack even on a full attack and I haven't really gotten a clear picture of how much of a melee threat he is with that.

What's the beefiest/largest wolf form he'd have access to anyway? Dire? Horrid? Legendary?

WarKitty
2010-11-28, 12:54 AM
Heh. A natural 18 without putting points into it. On a caster that's not supposed to be that castery. I have to admit, I'm jealous of your rolling skills now. :smallamused:

Boosting wisdom also helps with the saves being lowered thanks to your levels in Luchador. Then again, so does a natural +4 bonus... which considering ToB isn't out if SpC is your only banned book, isn't too bad for an unarmed swordsage dip, +4 to AC from wisdom, not that much more for a +2 wisdom item on the necklace of natural attacks to give a +5 to AC that applies to touch attacks, IIRC and would stack with light armor or clothing turned into armor.

I don't know what maneuvers a wolf could do or if your DM would even allow it to deliver unarmed strike (but who doesn't love hong kong fuey?), but as I said earlier, a source of unarmed strike could definitely help. As otherwise it's a single attack even on a full attack and I haven't really gotten a clear picture of how much of a melee threat he is with that.

What's the beefiest/largest wolf form he'd have access to anyway? Dire? Horrid? Legendary?

Still working on the largest form. So far all I've found is Dire wolf. Not theoretically supposed to be able to apply templates, but I figured I'd just argue my way out of that. I can turn into up to a huge animal. I'm thinking of heading more towards a Thing That Just Won't Die - try to get DR, fast healing, and ridiculous AC. Plus ridiculous strength on a tripper build. Yes, I rolled really well on stats, although I should probably move the 16 to wisdom and apply my +2 bonus to the 18 for a 20 strength.

No ToB Maneuvers preferably. I'm trying to walk the balance between being a threat and not being overwhelming for a low-caster level 7 or 8 party. I can flex on forms if it's really necessary, just no dinos.

Edit: I'm pretty sure you do get iterative attacks for your BAB, so the whole power attack line is a good option.

Tetsubo 57
2010-11-28, 08:25 AM
I would suggest looking at Kobold Quarterly #15. It has some good Druid information. Specifically a shapeshifting variant.

I talk about that issue here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSJ8v6JKmNw

Eldariel
2010-11-28, 08:28 AM
Oh of course, the one book I'm not allowed to use. :smallbiggrin:

Venomfire is actually from Serpent Kingdoms. Still silly.

AstralFire
2010-11-28, 08:30 AM
You can find them in the Spell Compendium. (My DM nixed them. SIGH.)

As any DM really, really should.

WarKitty
2010-11-28, 01:18 PM
So, I think I can swing a giant dire wolf, even though it's not technically RAW. That would give me a huge dire wolf. So build will go Druid4/Fighter1/Druid6/Fighter2/Warshaper5/Fighter9. Take natural bond to get a few more levels out of my companion, then go trip/improved trip/greater trip. With a bit of work I should have a massive CMB and the ability to trip pretty much anything.