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View Full Version : Is Trapkiller Barbarian tier 3?



true_shinken
2010-11-27, 09:49 PM
OK, Barbarian is pretty high at tier 4, dealing the buttloads of damage we know they can do and intimidating everyone around, with that much hp and all.

But with the trapkiller alternate class feature, the Barbarian actually has 3 areas he now shines at:
1. Combat
2. Intimidation
3. Finding/"disarming" traps

Is this enough for tier 3? It seems more flexible than, say, a Warblade.

Coidzor
2010-11-27, 11:11 PM
Really? I heard it was low tier 4 while the fighter was high tier 5 when it was discussed why they were different tiers.

So I don't know if that would be enough to make it tier 3, probably more mid-to-high tier 4.

Orzel
2010-11-27, 11:22 PM
Nah. Low 4 to high 4

Still no stealth. Still only half detection. Still no "other" utility.

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 11:26 PM
Nah. Low 4 to high 4

Still no stealth. Still only half detection. Still no "other" utility.

Same goes for Warblade. That's my point.

nolispe
2010-11-27, 11:29 PM
Warbalde still has more options; they get an array of manuvers, while barbarian is still "I hit it with my sword".

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 11:35 PM
Warbalde still has more options; they get an array of manuvers, while barbarian is still "I hit it with my sword".

But this is just within combat. A Barbarian already shines in combat, by dealing more damage than a Warblade.
A Warblade might fight with more options and that alone is enough for a tier of difference (like Wizard x Sorcerer) if all other choices are equal. But it's the Barbarian who has more options here. In a social encounter, a Warblade can at best try to intimidate as a standard action - and he probably won't be that good at it. A Barbarian probably has Intimidate maxed and has feats related to it, like Intimidating Rage. Against a trap, a Warblade can't find it and even if he knows where it is, his best bet is breaking everything around with a Stone Dragon maneuver (a Barbarian could do the same, it would only take more time). The Barbarian can find the trap and can disarm the trap properly by breaking it.

Orzel
2010-11-27, 11:38 PM
I consider warblades tier 4.

Urpriest
2010-11-27, 11:41 PM
Sometimes Tier 3 is about in-combat options rather than out of combat options. Warblades simply have more versatility in combat. Barbarians have to sink a lot more resources in to deal with unusual situations, and as such can't cover the kind of range of tactical abilities that Warblades can. Trapfinding+good damage is also a feature of the optimized Rogue, a solid Tier 4. You need multiple in-combat options (more than just two) to get Tier 3 unless you're stellar out of combat.

Flickerdart
2010-11-27, 11:46 PM
Barbarians that are well-optimized to do intimidate, axe and trapkill are at the very top of Tier 4. The trapkilling is at -5 compared to the Rogue, and can't solve magical traps or traps that you can't break, which is pretty lame. Intimidate is shut down my enemies immune to fear. So you're really left with only one good option - axe.

true_shinken
2010-11-27, 11:48 PM
Sometimes Tier 3 is about in-combat options rather than out of combat options. Warblades simply have more versatility in combat. Barbarians have to sink a lot more resources in to deal with unusual situations, and as such can't cover the kind of range of tactical abilities that Warblades can. Trapfinding+good damage is also a feature of the optimized Rogue, a solid Tier 4. You need multiple in-combat options (more than just two) to get Tier 3 unless you're stellar out of combat.

Hm, I'm convinced, sir.

Orzel
2010-11-28, 12:01 AM
Tier 3 is about combat options and diversity with some out of combat strength. That's why wildshape ranger is 3 and normal ranger is 4. Normal ranger has stealth, detection, tracking, healing, minions, and other; but it's mostly lame and repetitive in combat.

Coidzor
2010-11-28, 12:38 AM
Tier 3 is about combat options and diversity with some out of combat strength. That's why wildshape ranger is 3 and normal ranger is 4. Normal ranger has stealth, detection, tracking, healing, minions, and other; but it's mostly lame and repetitive in combat.

Plus normal ranger doesn't especially shine in any of those areas. I believe the tier-ranking explanation for ranger is that he's basically Average-to-Okay at everything he tries.

Tael
2010-11-28, 01:04 AM
I also don't get why people think Barbarians have so much better damage than Warblades. A pumped up maneuver routine can easily out-damage a Barbarian's rage, even with something as simple as Punishing Stance + Emerald Razor + Power Attack, and higher level maneuvers only get better.

Flickerdart
2010-11-28, 01:10 AM
Pounce goes a long way in removing heads. The maneuver is still a single attack, the numbers are in the barbarian's favour (until you get into Time Stands Still nonsense).

tyckspoon
2010-11-28, 01:17 AM
I also don't get why people think Barbarians have so much better damage than Warblades. A pumped up maneuver routine can easily out-damage a Barbarian's rage, even with something as simple as Punishing Stance + Emerald Razor + Power Attack, and higher level maneuvers only get better.

An optimized full attack routine will outdamage almost any single-attack strike combo- you could, for example, be comparing the Emerald Razor combo to a Whirling Frenzy Pouncing Barbarian that gets to attack twice. And then as he levels picks up Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, and gets Hasted, so now he charges people and makes 3 attacks at full BAB with heavy Power Attack at 3:1 returns.. what's the Warblade doing? Well, he can try to do the same thing, but he doesn't have the rage or the pounce, and it'll be some levels yet before he gets the maneuvers that give him a lot of extra attacks, so he mostly falls behind the Barbarian's damage output. (It does even back up at high levels when you can do some silly things with things like Time Stands Still, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Raging Mongoose, and the Stormguard Warrior feat, but the Barbarian still usually has an edge and doesn't need to take a turn out to recover his maneuvers from time to time.)

Tael
2010-11-28, 12:26 PM
An optimized full attack routine will outdamage almost any single-attack strike combo- you could, for example, be comparing the Emerald Razor combo to a Whirling Frenzy Pouncing Barbarian that gets to attack twice. And then as he levels picks up Leap Attack and Shock Trooper, and gets Hasted, so now he charges people and makes 3 attacks at full BAB with heavy Power Attack at 3:1 returns.. what's the Warblade doing? Well, he can try to do the same thing, but he doesn't have the rage or the pounce, and it'll be some levels yet before he gets the maneuvers that give him a lot of extra attacks, so he mostly falls behind the Barbarian's damage output. (It does even back up at high levels when you can do some silly things with things like Time Stands Still, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Raging Mongoose, and the Stormguard Warrior feat, but the Barbarian still usually has an edge and doesn't need to take a turn out to recover his maneuvers from time to time.)

Whirling Frenzy and Pounce? That's hardly standard barbarian fare. You have to compare equivalent levels of optimization. As you said, the Warblade can pick up Leap Attack as well, and even though he doesn't have pounce, he does have stuff like Battle Leader's Charge -> White Raven Tactics -> Soaring Raptor Strike (or plain old Emerald Razor if the opponent isn't large). And he can do this all before the Barbarian even qualifies for Shock Trooper (unless the barb took flaws). The Barb gets the edge at level 6 if he took Lion Spirit Totem, but the Warblade gets pounce at 9th anyway, so it's really not that big of a difference. The Warblade also has extra bonus feats to fuel these crazy charge shenanigans, giving him the ability to grab something ridiculous like Battle Jump or Stormguard Warrior in addition to Leap Attack and Shock Trooper.

Basically, I think Barbarians do have an edge on damage, but only if you're going into pretty high optimization. (also, warblades don't need to take a turn to recharge their maneuvers, they just have to not use them in one turn, but they can still whack people)

Greenish
2010-11-28, 12:38 PM
Whirling Frenzy and Pounce? That's hardly standard barbarian fare.That depends on what you use as the "standard".

he does have stuff like Battle Leader's Charge -> White Raven Tactics -> Soaring Raptor Strike (or plain old Emerald Razor if the opponent isn't large).The size of the enemy is of no consequence for Soaring Raptor Strike.

the Warblade gets pounce at 9th anyway, so it's really not that big of a difference.Pouncing Strike isn't quite the same as Pounce. For one, it can't be used as a Standard Action.

Tael
2010-11-28, 12:56 PM
That depends on what you use as the "standard".
I'm pretty sure trading away all of your 1st level class features for similar ACF is not standard.


The size of the enemy is of no consequence for Soaring Raptor Strike.
Uh, what?

You can
use this maneuver only against a foe
of a larger size category than yours.


Pouncing Strike isn't quite the same as Pounce. For one, it can't be used as a Standard Action.

? :smallconfused:
Pounce: You may make a full attack on a charge.
Pouncing Charge: You make a full attack on a charge.

What are you talking about? Where are you getting a Standard Action from?

Greenish
2010-11-28, 12:59 PM
Uh, what?Right you are, funny I've never noticed that.


? :smallconfused:
Pounce: You may make a full attack on a charge.
Pouncing Charge: You make a full attack on a charge.

What are you talking about? Where are you getting a Standard Action from?Well, from surprise round, for one. Or being Slowed.

Flickerdart
2010-11-28, 01:01 PM
Just because the Barbarian doesn't have Shock Trooper doesn't invalidate his Pounce. Until 9th level, the Warblade has to walk like a sucker while the Barbarian charges and full-attacks to his heart's content.

Tael
2010-11-28, 01:02 PM
Well, from surprise round, for one. Or being Slowed.

But both take full round actions, you can't use either of them when you are surprised or slowed.


Just because the Barbarian doesn't have Shock Trooper doesn't invalidate his Pounce. Until 9th level, the Warblade has to walk like a sucker while the Barbarian charges and full-attacks to his heart's content.

Yes, for three levels, the barbarian has more DPS on a charge. Whoop-de-doo. The Warblade can still use Sudden Leap + Full Attack, or any standard action maneuvers when he moves.

Greenish
2010-11-28, 01:04 PM
But both take full round actions, you can't use either of them when you are surprised or slowed.Well, you can't use Pouncing Charge, but you can charge, which was my point.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You canít use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

Tael
2010-11-28, 01:06 PM
Well, you can't use Pouncing Charge, but you can charge, which was my point.

Ah, right. Still, IHS away the Slow or use a normal maneuver. You're still a hell of lot more versatile.

Greenish
2010-11-28, 01:08 PM
Ah, right. Still, IHS away the Slow or use a normal maneuver. You're still a hell of lot more versatile.Of course.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 01:39 PM
Barbarians or fighters with pounce and a bunch of power attack feats having ridiculous damage has long been a staple of 3.5, to the point where it becomes cheese. That doesn't actually make them interesting to play >.<

true_shinken
2010-11-28, 01:45 PM
Barbarians or fighters with pounce and a bunch of power attack feats having ridiculous damage has long been a staple of 3.5, to the point where it becomes cheese. That doesn't actually make them interesting to play >.<

Wait a minute, because it's common, it's cheese?!

Flickerdart
2010-11-28, 01:49 PM
Yes, for three levels, the barbarian has more DPS on a charge. Whoop-de-doo. The Warblade can still use Sudden Leap + Full Attack, or any standard action maneuvers when he moves.
Three levels? Nine levels is more like it. Standard action maneuvers don't do as much damage as two or more regular attacks from a raging barbarian, and charging has double the distance of the warblade's movement.

true_shinken
2010-11-28, 01:55 PM
Three levels? Nine levels is more like it. Standard action maneuvers don't do as much damage as two or more regular attacks from a raging barbarian, and charging has double the distance of the warblade's movement.

I wouldn't say just nine as well. With equal levels of optimization, I'm pretty sure Barbarian will always come out ahead on the damage department.
At higher levels of optimization, with Time Stands Still spamming, Warblade might come out ahead, but nothing in the game survives the Barbarian's damage at this level anyway, so the Warblade's upgrade is kind of pointless.

Goonthegoof
2010-11-28, 02:28 PM
Wait a minute, because it's common, it's cheese?!

Said that the wrong way. What I meant was it's cheese because of the several hundred damage per round, but it came out wrong.

Tael
2010-11-28, 02:46 PM
Three levels? Nine levels is more like it. Standard action maneuvers don't do as much damage as two or more regular attacks from a raging barbarian, and charging has double the distance of the warblade's movement.

I was talking about if the Barbarian didn't take Whirling Frenzy. As in, you only get a second attack at 6th.

Pechvarry
2010-11-28, 03:44 PM
Wait a minute. I thought the original damage comparisons between Warblade and Barbarian were pre-Complete Champion (it appears ToB predated CC by nearly a year).

Unless I can be convinced Barbarians can outdamage Warblades without pounce, I'm going to say Barbarians are completely inept. In fact, I wonder if non-pouncers can even keep up with charging smite paladins. Making Barbarians tier 5 by default.

Flickerdart
2010-11-28, 03:51 PM
I was talking about if the Barbarian didn't take Whirling Frenzy. As in, you only get a second attack at 6th.
Why is the barbarian being denied the option, exactly?

HunterOfJello
2010-11-28, 04:01 PM
Barbarians, when optimized properly, can obtain higher damage than many of the classes that are Tier 3. Good job barbarians, you're actually good at something! But what else are you as effective at? Killing traps....? Oh yeah, I guess that's why you're a low to high tier 4.

While the Barbarian has boosted up his damage to amounts that are respectable for a melee character, he still lacks the versatility of the Warblade. A level 5 Warblade already has access to Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics. (For 3000gp and with the right re-reqs they can have both.)

Warblades just have too many options available to them when they choose out their maneuvers to make the specific type of melee character than the player is looking for. Adjusting other group members initiative during battle, removing a large laundry list of status effects with a swift action, replacing will saves or reflex saves with concentration checks, Mountain Hammer, Soaring Raptor Strike, and some nice specific strikes for disarming or bullrushing make the Warblade truly shine out and distinguish themselves.


The trapkiller barbarian may be nice, especially with high optimization and may be a more fun character for you personally to play. However, it still lacks the versatility of the Warblade who is constantly gaining more fun goodies that many barbarians would drool over and cannot match up to the Tier 3 ranking.

true_shinken
2010-11-28, 04:35 PM
Wait a minute. I thought the original damage comparisons between Warblade and Barbarian were pre-Complete Champion (it appears ToB predated CC by nearly a year).

Unless I can be convinced Barbarians can outdamage Warblades without pounce, I'm going to say Barbarians are completely inept. In fact, I wonder if non-pouncers can even keep up with charging smite paladins. Making Barbarians tier 5 by default.

Wait, what? Just because it gets pounce from a ACF it's tier 5?! I really don't get this. The tier system takes all options into consideration. Yes, non-Lion Totem Barbarians are weaker, so what?

Greenish
2010-11-28, 04:43 PM
removing a large laundry list of status effects with a swift actionIron Heart Surge is a standard action.

replacing will saves or reflex saves with concentration checks,Or fort saves, if you want.

Coidzor
2010-11-28, 04:43 PM
After all, Dungeoncrasher ACF does have its own entry separate from the base class in the tier system post.

Pechvarry
2010-11-28, 05:36 PM
Wait, what? Just because it gets pounce from a ACF it's tier 5?! I really don't get this. The tier system takes all options into consideration. Yes, non-Lion Totem Barbarians are weaker, so what?

How would you place a pounce-less Barbarian? 'cuz it seems like this:


Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well

In this case, that one thing is damage. Barbarian seems tier 5 w/out Pounce.

Please, I'd like to be convinced otherwise. I want to know: how does a pounce-less barbarian compare to a Warblade? If it's a waste of a party slot, then yes. you need that Pounce feature to be considered "good" at your one trick (and thus tier 4).

JaronK
2010-11-28, 06:20 PM
But this is just within combat. A Barbarian already shines in combat, by dealing more damage than a Warblade.
A Warblade might fight with more options and that alone is enough for a tier of difference (like Wizard x Sorcerer) if all other choices are equal. But it's the Barbarian who has more options here. In a social encounter, a Warblade can at best try to intimidate as a standard action - and he probably won't be that good at it.

You do realize Warblades have Diplomacy, right? They also have more skill points than they know what to do with generally, so it's usually maxed out.

As for dealing more damage, that depends on optimization level and scenario. The Barbarian can charge for lots of damage (his one trick). The Warblade... can charge for lots of damage with Pouncing Charge. Or make the best character for the current situation act again this round with White Raven Tactics. Or do both at once. He can be set up as a crit monkey (Blood in the Water + any maneuver that gives more attacks) and go nuts that way, possibly hitting infinite damage if he were to go a little too nuts. Or he can use the White Raven charge maneuvers to make all his party members chargers, and add plenty of damage that way.

Imagine a scenario where the Barbarian can't charge. What then? The Warblade almost certainly has White Raven Tactics, which makes the best person in the party do whatever needs to be done again.


A Barbarian probably has Intimidate maxed and has feats related to it, like Intimidating Rage.

Why assume this? I mean, it's a solid feat, but it's not that commonly taken.


Against a trap, a Warblade can't find it and even if he knows where it is, his best bet is breaking everything around with a Stone Dragon maneuver (a Barbarian could do the same, it would only take more time). The Barbarian can find the trap and can disarm the trap properly by breaking it.

Unless the trap is a pit trap or something, in which case breaking it's a little silly. Or if you're trying NOT to make a lot of noise. Meanwhile, the Warblade can do things like punch through walls ignoring hardness with his bare hands while naked (capture scenario) or inspire an army (diplomacy) or shrug off any status effect (Iron Heart Surge) or basically auto pass any will save (Moment of Perfect Mind) or pull off any other number of tricks.

As to non Lion Totem Barbarians being Tier 5... it's a near thing. Rage is always useful, which pretty much always makes them good at hitting stuff. And I've found at the bottom levels of Optimization, everyone playing a Barbarian still tries to hit stuff (because that's what the class says it's for) so even a newbie will grab a two handed weapon and take some feats directed towards "hit it really hard." And in such a game, that's still decent. By comparison, Fighters at that optimization level are often either sword and boarders or TWF+Over sized TWF+Monkey Grip types. When you optimized heavily, Barbarians have Shock Trooper and Pounce and usually Leap Attack too, so they're still out damaging the Fighters. At almost all levels, they're noticeably a tick above Fighters, hence their placement one Tier up. But they're not that high in their tier.

JaronK

true_shinken
2010-11-29, 07:08 AM
You do realize Warblades have Diplomacy, right? They also have more skill points than they know what to do with generally, so it's usually maxed out.
I actually forgot that. :smalltongue:


As for dealing more damage, that depends on optimization level and scenario. The Barbarian can charge for lots of damage (his one trick). The Warblade... can charge for lots of damage with Pouncing Charge. Or make the best character for the current situation act again this round with White Raven Tactics. Or do both at once. He can be set up as a crit monkey (Blood in the Water + any maneuver that gives more attacks) and go nuts that way, possibly hitting infinite damage if he were to go a little too nuts. Or he can use the White Raven charge maneuvers to make all his party members chargers, and add plenty of damage that way.
Yes, but if you can charge (and you can easily build it so you can almost charge) a Barbarian will always deal more damage than a Warblade within the same optimization level. That does not change the Barbarian's tier, sure, but don't take his only candy from him. ^^