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Master Thrower
2010-11-28, 04:10 PM
Hi so im going to be an arcane caster for the party. We already have a war-mage, so i was thinking of making either a wizard or sorcerer, who uses improved counter spell to repeatedly stop enemy spells. Any ideas on how to build this> books allowed are- PH,DMG,CW,CadV,CD,CA,PlH,LB,Drc.

cdrcjsn
2010-11-28, 04:14 PM
Why not play an offensive cleric specialized in casting silence spells? :)

Keld Denar
2010-11-28, 04:19 PM
The trick to effective counterspelling is to not burn your whole action to do it. Things like Battlemagic Perception, Duelward, Divine Defiance, Ring of Greater Counterspells, Ring of Spellbattle, and such go a long way toward providing effective immediate action counterspells.

Chambers
2010-11-28, 04:23 PM
Also ask your DM to change the wording of Reactive Counterspell. There wasn't immediate or swift actions when Players Guide to Faerun was published, so they didn't use 'em.

Instead of sucking up your whole next turn, Reactive Counterspell should just be an immediate action.

Darwin
2010-11-28, 04:27 PM
I'll just leave this here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation)

Master Thrower
2010-11-28, 04:38 PM
I'll just leave this here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation)

Thanks although it seems that since i'm only using mostly core counter spelling seems harder

Runestar
2010-11-28, 06:52 PM
Also ask your DM to change the wording of Reactive Counterspell. There wasn't immediate or swift actions when Players Guide to Faerun was published, so they didn't use 'em.

Instead of sucking up your whole next turn, Reactive Counterspell should just be an immediate action.

Actually, they made it worse in PGTF. I believe it now costs an immediate action and sucks up your next turn. :smallmad:

AslanCross
2010-11-28, 06:59 PM
Counterspelling is not a viable use of your resources if you're only in core. You have to anticipate it by readying an action, and it sucks up your uses of dispel magic.

Crow
2010-11-28, 07:23 PM
Counterspelling is not a viable use of your resources if you're only in core. You have to anticipate it by readying an action, and it sucks up your uses of dispel magic.

On the other hand, it's a *great* way for your wizard to play nice with fighters, bards, and monks without making them feel useless. Counterspelling is a niche style of play that doesn't appeal to all, but in the right group can be fun and useful (without making party members useless). As with anything in D&D, there are other (maybe better) ways to play, but if you have fun doing it your way, you have done it RIGHT.

As for anticipating it, if you're facing a powerful spellcaster, you can probably be pretty safe to assume he's going to be casting some spells.

Master Thrower
2010-11-28, 07:26 PM
On the other hand, it's a *great* way for your wizard to play nice with fighters, bards, and monks without making them feel useless. Counterspelling is a niche style of play that doesn't appeal to all, but in the right group can be fun and useful (without making party members useless). As with anything in D&D, there are other (maybe better) ways to play, but if you have fun doing it your way, you have done it RIGHT.

As for anticipating it, if you're facing a powerful spellcaster, you can probably be pretty safe to assume he's going to be casting some spells.

Yeah i believe since we already have a war mage who only wanted to be a blaster so he wasn't a " I do everything wizard" and since I have the second spell casting slot i'll probably be a counter speller. Is wizard or sorcerer better for it?

Crow
2010-11-28, 07:28 PM
Yeah i believe since we already have a war mage who only wanted to be a blaster so he wasn't a " I do everything wizard" and since I have the second spell casting slot i'll probably be a counter speller. Is wizard or sorcerer better for it?

I prefer a sorcerer with heighten spell..but that's just me.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-28, 07:31 PM
Yeah i believe since we already have a war mage who only wanted to be a blaster so he wasn't a " I do everything wizard" and since I have the second spell casting slot i'll probably be a counter speller. Is wizard or sorcerer better for it?

Sorcerer is usually better because they can cast spontaneously; if you plug a dispel magic in all of your slots as a wizard your wasting slots, while having it as a sorc spell it only uses slots if you actually use it. Shadowcaster is better, but you don't have ToM, so its a moot point.

Sorcerer with a focus in abjuration is the way to go in core. Then use your none dispel-spells for things like glitterdust and other SoS AoE spells. Your warmage probably focuses on damage, so if you go into save or sucks for secondary (after dispelling) and then use wands and scrolls for utility you will do just fine.

nekomata2
2010-11-28, 07:41 PM
I'm curious, not being very familiar with them, but how are Shadowcasters better counterspellers?

Master Thrower
2010-11-28, 07:41 PM
I prefer a sorcerer with heighten spell..but that's just me.

Correct me if i'm wrong as I haven't seen heighten spell in awhile. It allows you to up the spell level right? My guess is so that you can use just any school and just bump the spell one level above theirs?

nedz
2010-11-28, 07:48 PM
Heighten spell would be tricky to use as a Sorceror if you don't have access to the Metamagic Specialist ACF (PH2 IIRC) since this would make your spells a full round cast.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-28, 08:17 PM
I'm curious, not being very familiar with them, but how are Shadowcasters better counterspellers?

Warpspell doesn't have the caster level cap that Dispel Magic does; Dispel magic has a maximum of +10 from caster level while Warpspell doesn't have a maximum. Greater Dispel Magic has a maximum of +20, so a Shadowcaster is better in Epic levels at it, and has the advantage of not using as high of slots for it, and you get magical kickbacks from it. Even more importantly Warpspell is cast as an immediate action, so you don't need to ready it like a core caster does.

You have a slightly lower chance of success at low levels, since Shadow Magic takes a -4 to dispelling, but you can combine it with Flood of Shadows which makes the enemy take a spellcraft check each time they cast, increasing drastically the chances that the spell will fail (two checks is much better then one).

Finally they can take levels in Noctumancer, which is a MT with potent counterspelling abilities on top.

Psyren
2010-11-28, 09:00 PM
On the other hand, it's a *great* way for your wizard to play nice with fighters, bards, and monks without making them feel useless. Counterspelling is a niche style of play that doesn't appeal to all, but in the right group can be fun and useful (without making party members useless). As with anything in D&D, there are other (maybe better) ways to play, but if you have fun doing it your way, you have done it RIGHT

Aslan was just saying counterspelling is a difficult strategy to employ in a core-only game, not that it wasn't viable at all. Some concepts just don't work well in core-only (arcane summoner is another difficult one) but become extremely effective outside of it.

Whether the player has fun or not is not something we can anticipate through the forum - we can only point out the benefits/pitfalls to a given approach. As a rule of thumb however, if a given approach has more pitfalls than benefits, it ends up being less fun for the player.

nekomata2
2010-11-28, 09:26 PM
Thanks Tvtyrant, that makes sense.

Acanous
2010-11-28, 09:48 PM
What level are you?
If you're serious about counterspelling, but don't want to overshadow the party, going Master Specialist (Abjuration) might be a good idea. You get a +5 bonus to Dispel checks (at lv 10 Mspec), the ability to use [Personal] as [Touch] spells, which would allow you to throw out preventitive spells to your party, and you basically get evasion for fort, ref, AND will.

Initiate of the sevenfold Veil is a good one to go as well, with Wardings that will better protect your team. Further, you gain a +7 to the DC of countering YOUR spells, and a +4 bonus to counter enemy abjurations. If you went Wiz3 Mspec10 Initiate7, you'd be getting a +9 bonus to dispel enemy abjurations, on top of the +20 from Greater Dispel Magic. Pretty decent, and not epic yet.
Gets especially good with Kalidescopic Doom :D

I know this isn't all "Counterspells", it's more "Counter-magic" and protection spells. Still, with the majority of your spells lasting a good while, it allows you to set up your protections, THEN save your actions to counterspell.
If you go specialist Wizard, you'll get one slot less than a sorc with an equal cast-stat score, but I believe the faster spell progression, class bonuses and easier metamagic should make up for it.
Featwise, I'd reccommend metamagic (Extend Spell) and (Eschew Materials), then things to increase your saves. For Prohibited schools, Evocation and Necromancy. You're not going to be a blasty mage anyhow, Necromancy is prohibitively expensive, and really you can get pretty much the same effects with Conjuration anyhow.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-28, 09:54 PM
Anytime :smallcool:

Spellthief 5/Spellwarp sniper might be an interesting alternative, because if you counter-spell a spell that targets you the spellthief ability lets you get a spell out of it, which is essentially using a lot of class levels to get a different version of warpspell, but you would also get the sneak attack spell stealing rays, and with precocious apprentice practiced spellcaster you get a lot of caster levels back.

Acanous
2010-11-28, 09:57 PM
Wait, how is Precocious apprentice giving you a bunch of caster levels back?
.0

Tvtyrant
2010-11-28, 10:09 PM
Wait, how is Precocious apprentice giving you a bunch of caster levels back?
.0

Nice eyebrow on the questioning face. Your right, I was thinking of a different feat (can't remember the name, gives you up to +4 caster levels but they cannot exceed your character level. Curse my memory!)

Acanous
2010-11-28, 10:10 PM
Ahhh, Practiced Spellcaster. Makes sense now.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-28, 10:15 PM
I think your abjurant god would be better then my suggestions, but I hate Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Immediate action unbreakable defenses are just...no. :(

Endarire
2010-11-29, 12:22 AM
You can "counter cast" instead. Ready an action to "cast X if Y happens," like "cast my LoE blocker/a very big boom spell" if you see an enemy caster casting.

If you damaged the caster, he'd need to make a very high Concentration check, assuming he didn't just die. Also, he probably just lost his spell.

If you broke line of effect, such as with wall of force, then he can't cast that spell on you or in your area.

ericgrau
2010-11-29, 01:00 AM
There has got to be at least 20 different spells for stopping magic, and 10 or 20 more non-magical tactics. Read the spell descriptions and the combat section of your player's handbook. Counterspelling can be a viable tactic too from time to time as long as the enemy's action is worth more than yours. For example, BBEGs. I'd go with improved counterspell and preparing spells of each school over dispel because it doesn't fail.

Crow
2010-11-29, 01:05 AM
ericgrau makes an important point;

Counterspelling is something you do to the big fish. Anything less and you're prolly better off unleashing the fury.

Kallisti
2010-11-29, 01:08 AM
You know what makes an awesome counterspeller? A blaster. I've always found readying an action to blast the other guy if he begins casting a spell to be a good way to keep him from getting a spell off. It's easy to get pretty impressive damage with a spell--more than enough to disrupt a casting.

Crow
2010-11-29, 01:17 AM
You know what makes an awesome counterspeller? A blaster. I've always found readying an action to blast the other guy if he begins casting a spell to be a good way to keep him from getting a spell off. It's easy to get pretty impressive damage with a spell--more than enough to disrupt a casting.

Absolutely, if the caster isn't prepared for that kind of thing. Easy to avoid though if the bad guy knows his stuff.

Kallisti
2010-11-29, 01:29 AM
Absolutely, if the caster isn't prepared for that kind of thing. Easy to avoid though if the bad guy knows his stuff.

Hmmm...all I've got is Abrupt Jaunt or Greater Mirror Image. Either of which would mean abandoning the spell. You don't get hit, but you still lose the spell. What did you have in mind?

Runestar
2010-11-29, 05:58 AM
Hmmm...all I've got is Abrupt Jaunt or Greater Mirror Image. Either of which would mean abandoning the spell. You don't get hit, but you still lose the spell. What did you have in mind?

My guess is that if the BBEG is already buffed to the gills with protection spells, and you haven't the opportunity to dispel them yet or are unsure of what spells are up, then it might be a better deal to just counterspell instead.

For instance, he may have a ray deflection up for all you know, making orb spells useless. Or spell deflection against your maximised magic missiles. Even stuff like fireball can be negated by elemental immunities.

It really depends. Yes, readying an action to smack the enemy caster with a damage spell when he tries to cast a spell may be more efficient (he loses a spell and takes damage) but there can be times when counterspelling is more desirable.