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Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-02, 11:30 PM
So I'm running my first campaign. I've gone out of my way to ban only a couple things, one of them being the leadership feat and the other being the cleric or druid, though the latter I'd open back up with an experienced role player who would agree not to use it to break me.

Anyway, one of the members wants to play a half-Ogre. He knows nothing of it's stats except for that it has +6 str with a large size, and it has some penalties to mental stats. He's planning on being a psychic warrior, and using his powers of expansion, stacking with his naturally large size to allow him to become gargantuan. From that point he wants to be an ultra bizarre utility type as well as a fighter, fording small rivers and whatever else could be useful being that oversized. He plans to mostly be a grappler in combat, using a psychic warrior's natural weapon powers and perhaps some sort of net (giant net to entangle large groups, essentially).

Anyway, is the half-ogre overpowered? The +6 str, while insane, seems fine to me, but the +2 con and the +4 AC as well as the nightvision just appears overkill far as I can tell. But I've been wrong before. It should be of note that I'm not allowing the LA buy-off.

To put things in context, the party consists of 6 people. One hasn't been decided yet (they might not even participate), but the others are as follows.

Halfling Beguiler
Half-Giant Favored Soul
Human Paladin (I'm a bit worried about this one especially. Sort of considering allowing them to take leadership and take the whole ultra mount option to balance)
Warforged Dragonfire Adept (Wears adamantine armor and therefor has terrible incantation powers, but is focusing on her breath attack almost exclusively. I'm allowing her to take metabreath feats, interpreting the "expressed in rounds" to mean "of frequent use," as it compares not to an at will power but to an in minutes power)

Anyway, any ideas? Part of me is considering taking the half-ogre and removing the +4 AC while maybe increasing the penalty to int to -4.

EDIT: Ok, since it's two pages I'll sum up what's happened. I've been given the half-ogre template. Might run it with an orc base. Someone suggested a wild template as well... That would mean +10 strength for +1 LA, which is sort of a joke. Since we're using a 32 point buy, they could dump int and cha, which makes me wonder... What is the penalty of having int 3 cha 2. I mean, there's the obvious "fail all charisma or int checks ever", but is that really it? I thought he'd be subject to magic more but the saves don't align with those. And as long as there's an intelligent, charismatic person in the party I don't really see the weakness coming into play. Should I ban at the very least the wild template? Hell, maybe make them take half-orc as a base instead of orc?

faceroll
2010-12-02, 11:34 PM
He will be a glass canon. His AC will be low, because going up to gargantuan nets you -6 dex and -4 AC. He will also be two levels behind, which is an average of 20 HP.

He will hit hard, though. He should use a spiked chain. Combat reflexes won't be much good when you dump your dex, however.

If all he wants is to get big, he should take 2 levels psychic warrior and the practiced manifester feat. This will let him to augment to gargantuan at level 7. Then he can dip a bunch of other classes, like fighter, feat rogue, and passive way monk to get improved trip, knockdown, knockback, exotic weapon proficiency, power attack, and cleave.

Antonok
2010-12-02, 11:47 PM
If you can get access to dragon magazine content, theres always the half ogre templete (Half Ogre with lessened bonuses).

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-02, 11:54 PM
Do you know which article? I might try and find it, that seems like a better idea (though would that mean he could add the template to orc for even wilder benefits? Because he would do that).

So, the glass cannon aspect... Would the +4 AC be alright, then? It feels to me like it almost allows him to reach great size without penalty.. And it doesn't feel quite fair to the warforged, who quite frankly should be the tank (though stacking the adamantine armor with the dragon scales natural armor bonus will eventually make her above that.)

faceroll
2010-12-02, 11:58 PM
He'll over shadow the party, especially if he does tripping. The Half-ogre template gives +12 str, and combined with full blooded orc, gets you +16 str. Throw rage and reckless rage in there, and that's 40 str at ECL2.

Runestar
2010-12-03, 12:00 AM
They need to higher AC to survive, IMO, since they will lose out in quite a bit of hp, especially at lower lvs.

faceroll
2010-12-03, 12:02 AM
They need to higher AC to survive, IMO, since they will lose out in quite a bit of hp, especially at lower lvs.

Yup.
I actually played a feral anthro whale in a game with a warforged (with adamantium plate). I had really terrific damage output, but low AC. The warforged could tank like a mofo, but didn't have much damage output. I died. He didn't.

Antonok
2010-12-03, 12:06 AM
He'll over shadow the party, especially if he does tripping. The Half-ogre template gives +12 str, and combined with full blooded orc, gets you +16 str. Throw rage and reckless rage in there, and that's 40 str at ECL2.

They do? The one I saw said they only get +4 Str

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-12-03, 12:09 AM
If we're talking Half Ogre from RoD, which is the most official, it's situational. In most cases I'd prefer those two class levels, but starting out as large gives you a lot of nice benefits. If we're talking Savage Species, where it's only +1 LA, it's overpowered.

faceroll
2010-12-03, 12:14 AM
They do? The one I saw said they only get +4 Str

The Dragon template does. If the template increases a creature's size (such as an orc), then it explicitly gains the effects of an increase in size.
Check out this table to see the real RAW damage:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

Of course, you can always just ignore that line. In which case, it is a perfectly cromulent template, for a high OP game. Wouldn't recommend it in yours, though. Still too good when combined with something like orc or human.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 12:15 AM
We're talking RoD.


Alright then, that's what I'll do, thanks for your help everyone ^^

...Could you technically take half-ogre... With the half-ogre template?

Also I think he's going to do grapple rather than trip. And he really likes the idea of ultra net. And probably throw anything.

Escheton
2010-12-03, 12:18 AM
make it +2 and call it a day. +1 for the size, +1 for the stats.
Used it like that in games, balances well.

WinceRind
2010-12-03, 12:23 AM
We're talking RoD.


Alright then, that's what I'll do, thanks for your help everyone ^^

...Could you technically take half-ogre... With the half-ogre template?

Also I think he's going to do grapple rather than trip. And he really likes the idea of ultra net. And probably throw anything.

In that case he'd probably like Hulking Hurler (or whatever it's called) class from... uh... I think Races of Stone. Or Complete Warrior.

Have to be large just to qualify, and basically you throw anything and get nifty tricks with it too. Only 5 levels, too, if I remember it right.

And there are some neat feats that allow you, assuming very high str and large or greater size, to grapple and throw enemies. Or even allies...

faceroll
2010-12-03, 01:22 AM
In that case he'd probably like Hulking Hurler (or whatever it's called) class from... uh... I think Races of Stone. Or Complete Warrior.

Have to be large just to qualify, and basically you throw anything and get nifty tricks with it too. Only 5 levels, too, if I remember it right.

And there are some neat feats that allow you, assuming very high str and large or greater size, to grapple and throw enemies. Or even allies...

Three levels and don't use the falling object rules presented in CWar if you use Hulking Hurler. HH is actually a really neat and perfectly underpowered prestige class (like anything that doesn't give you the effects of a full caster). It just doesn't work with the rules for thrown objects.

Strife Warzeal
2010-12-03, 01:31 AM
...Could you technically take half-ogre... With the half-ogre template?


Reminds me of the joke (Strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html)) chief grukgruk half-orc too. other half, also orc.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 01:41 AM
Three levels and don't use the falling object rules presented in CWar if you use Hulking Hurler. HH is actually a really neat and perfectly underpowered prestige class (like anything that doesn't give you the effects of a full caster). It just doesn't work with the rules for thrown objects.

Is it something usable? I always hear the damages going into the thousands with that one, so I was sort of worrying.

herrhauptmann
2010-12-03, 02:01 AM
Is it something usable? I always hear the damages going into the thousands with that one, so I was sort of worrying.

It gets bad when you combine with Warhulk (mini handbook?). Which grants you strength bonuses rather than higher BAB.
It gets worse because your damage ends up being limited to your carrying capacity. Did I say limited? Also, there's an item which effectively doubles your carrying capacity, and large creatures get to carry twice as much anyway. So quadruple what a human of the same strength could carry.

The abuse gets worse once you start carrying around a bowling ball made of 'neutronium, the stuff at the heart of a neutron star, the heaviest stuff in existence that isn't a black hole.' (Don't blame me, I'm quoting someone from an old Warhulking Hurler build) Seriously folks, it's D&D, don't bring chemistry and physics into it. Especially if you're not 100% correct in what you're saying.

Anyway, since the player wants to be a psywar, you don't have too much to worry about with him being a warhulking hurler as well, it wouldn't fit into the image too well I think.
Also, warhulk makes you lose any skill ranks in Int/Wis/Cha skills except intimidate. No retraining them to something else, you flat out lose them. He'll also be getting into trouble when the half ton ogre tries to carry around a 4 ton object to throw. He won't be able to fit into many places, let alone fit in. And he's going to be limited to walking everywhere, or getting a fly spell. Boats, bridges, rock ledges on the side of a mountain, smaller buildings... Many would break in that situation. Warn him before he gets abusive with the warhulking hurler that he'll run into those problems.
By 44 strength, he'd have a 4 ton light load. 50 str, 8 and a half tons.

Finally, half minotaur on a small or medium sized creature is far more abusive than half ogre. Size increase, strength boost. And the stat changes as a result of size changes, you apply those in addition to the racial strength boost.

tyckspoon
2010-12-03, 02:02 AM
Is it something usable? I always hear the damages going into the thousands with that one, so I was sort of worrying.

For more normal applications, it's actually kind of underpowered. In order to do the really stupid amounts of damage, you have to find or have specially created a stupendously dense (and correspondingly heavy) throwing object; if you do it like the flavor text suggests and just pick up and toss any reasonably heavy thing that is in the area, you'll be doing 2-4d6 worth of damage, maybe 4-7d6 if the object is pointy enough to count as sharp. That's not anything to worry about, and the Hurler may well find he actually does more damage just by hitting stuff with a standard two-handed weapon.

faceroll
2010-12-03, 02:13 AM
What's the relationship between damage and weight?

Escheton
2010-12-03, 02:26 AM
pretty direct, to the point that taking ranks in knowledge(physics) and/or (alchemy) allow you to make(with fabricate or whatever) the most dense baseball ever that hits for like 400d6 dmg.

Alleine
2010-12-03, 03:01 AM
So, the glass cannon aspect... Would the +4 AC be alright, then? It feels to me like it almost allows him to reach great size without penalty.. And it doesn't feel quite fair to the warforged, who quite frankly should be the tank (though stacking the adamantine armor with the dragon scales natural armor bonus will eventually make her above that.)

Most larger creatures have natural armor to make up for the fact that they have penalties to AC due to size. Every time he gets bigger, he'll take more penalties to AC.

I wouldn't really call it overpowered, but at lower levels anything can tip the nonexistent balance. At higher levels his lack of health will come up more often, and his str will take a back seat unless he specifically builds to exploit high str, and even then it's less the strength that's dangerous and more the build behind it. You can always throw in a few dungeons made for medium creatures so that he has to squeeze though some places, making his size more of a hindrance.

ericgrau
2010-12-03, 03:01 AM
I agree +2 LA for large size and nice stats will be fine. If anything I might put it at a hair over 2 LA, but 3 LA would be way too much. It's less than 2 LA if the players optimize enough.

What's ridiculous are the psychic warrior size increases for the massive trip and grapple bonuses, but he could do that on any race. Once you hit +12 to +20 (including titan's grip or a psionic item that provides it), another +4 doesn't matter since you're already succeeding almost no matter what. If he's only a damage dealer the large size isn't as bad. I mean his AB doesn't go up, at some point I think it even goes down. Actually hitting matters as much if not more than base damage. His AC goes way down once you include the lost dex. Ya the natural armor mitigates this partially but it is fairly paid for with the LA.

Escheton
2010-12-03, 03:19 AM
Yeah, but most of those shenenigens only work in the open field. Try being huge in a 10 by 10 or 5 by 5 hallway.

Runestar
2010-12-03, 03:21 AM
At higher levels his lack of health will come up more often

Actually, I think the lack of hp will be less of an issue at higher lvs. You should have a fair bit of health already, so the loss of hp due to LA will constitute a smaller percentage of your overall hp compared to total hp.

For example, at ECL3, a half-ogre fighter1 would have 13hp (assuming 16con), a dwarf fighter3 with 16 con would have 30hp, slightly more than double.

Then at lv20, a half-ogre fighter18 with 22con (base16, +6item) would have 212hp, while the same dwarf fighter20 would have 235hp, only ~20 hp more. Not too harsh a penalty.

The +6 str translates into +3 to-hit and +4/+5 damage (assuming 2-handed weapon). The attack bonus is offset by the LA+2 (2 lost lvs in a full-bab class) and -1size, so the net gain is really a decent damage boost on all attacks and bonuses on str-related checks.

Large size is always nice, but by mid lvs, the fighter can afford a permanent enlarge person (or if you are a goliath barb, will always be large in fights anyways).

So I would conclude the half-ogre is actually slightly overpriced at LA+2. :smallconfused:

That said, a half-ogre swordsage focusing on setting sun sounds really fun, since it mitigates one of the discipline's biggest drawback - tripping being limited to 1 size larger than you.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 03:47 AM
Alright everyone, update from me now:

I was referred to the Half-Ogre template, the hope being that it's slightly less wild nature would make it preferable. It might be even crazier, and once again I'd love to know what you guys think (Honestly, if the template works better I'd love to use it, I like idea much more than the human being the only mediator between species).

For those who don't have access to dragon...

Half-Ogre Race:
+6 Str, 2 Dex, +2 Con, 2 Int, 2 Cha
Large Size, movement 30'. Darkvision 60'. +4 natural armor bonus.
LA +2

Half-Ogre template:
+4 Str, -2 int, -2 cha
Size increases one category (if small or medium, and other than half ogre who's not?), Movement +10', Darkvision 60', +2 natural armor bonus.
LA +1

Half-Ogre Orc (Logical choice?)
+8 Str, -4 int, -2 wis, -4 cha
Large Size, Movement 40', Darkvision 60', +2 natural armor bonus.
LA +1

Half-Ogre Half-Orc (Same idea, but maybe how it should actually work.
+6 Str, -4 Int, -4 Cha
Large Size, Movement 40', Darkvision 60', +2 natural armor bonus.
LA +1

Half-Ogre Pixie (Funnier combo)
+8 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
Medium Size, Movement 30', Fly 60' (70'?), darkvision 60', Low-Light Vision, Bonus Feat: Dodge, +3 AC, Some other stuff
LA +7

Half-Ogre Half-Ogre (theoretically an ogre. I wonder how it compares...)
+10 Str, -2 dex, +2 con, -4 int, -4 cha
Large Size, Movement 30', darkvision 60', +6 AC
LA +3

Anyway I sort of like that ogre-orc, actually. I wonder if there are any other LA +0 (Or even +1) units that might work.

Antonok
2010-12-03, 06:16 AM
Half-Ogre template:
+4 Str, -2 int, -2 cha
Size increases one category (if small or medium, and other than half ogre who's not?), Movement +10', Darkvision 60', +2 natural armor bonus.
LA +1


This is the one I was reffering to. Its not completely OP and gives you a decent trade off for a +1 LA imo. I would use it as just a base race instead of a templete.

The half ogre orc is alright if you rly want a 2nd lvl char to have a 26 Str. Prolly the only time hes going to compare to a caster in his entire career. Likewise with the Half Ogre Half Orc. The rest just seem over the top for PCs tho.

I might actually check with my group to see about replacing the regular half giant race stats with the templete stats myself. (This is my opinion tho, since the most frequent DM in my group complains that most of the party is usually only stat blocks)

Darrin
2010-12-03, 06:31 AM
Anyway I sort of like that ogre-orc, actually. I wonder if there are any other LA +0 (Or even +1) units that might work.

Wild racial template (Dragon #306) is LA +0. Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2, speed +5'.

Goliath Barbarian racial substitution gains a size increase while raging. Add Half-Ogre to go up to huge... augmented expansion gets you up to colossal.

Deadtissue
2010-12-03, 11:15 AM
One thing to note about the Half-Ogre from RoD is that though large if you look at the height and weight charts in the same book the maximum height for a half-ogre places it in the medium size range according to the rules in the DMG (states large are minimum 9').

You can run a "large" with 10' reach etc Half-Ogre who is only 7' tall and thereby easily fit into a dungeon designed for medium creatures without penalty. So with this "race" you get all the benefits of being large and few of the drawbacks.

I houseruled the Half-ogre to only have the same powerful build racial ability as the half giant race and remain medium though I gave the player the option of staying large but being a minimum of 8'6"+3d6" tall. They chose mdm as it was a seafaring campaign with many battles in ships that had only 8' ceilings.

Just something to consider.....

Invelios
2010-12-03, 11:22 AM
what's really messed up is he could take 3 levels of stone blessed PRC and become a dwarf/gnome/Goliath for all intents and purposes and start taking those racial PRC as well.

Some of which are really great for the barb frenzied berserker uber charger/tripper, i.e. battle rager from races of faerun.

Toliudar
2010-12-03, 11:29 AM
As noted several times above, I'd say the +1 LA template will be fine for this. I would also recommend checking in with the player of the half-giant favoured soul - if he/she was planning to be the "get big and smash things with my very big weapon" person, he/she'll feel overshadowed by the half-ogre. But then, he/she's still a caster, so will have other things they could easily refocus on.

ericgrau
2010-12-03, 11:45 AM
Ogres
Actually the half-ogre orc isn't that bad because it gets a -1 to hit in bright light. Without the +2 con it and the half-ogre half-orc are probably on par with the half-ogre, with the orc slightly better and half-orc slightly worse. I'd say the half-ogre- half-ogre is actually a 3/4 ogre. :smalltongue: Almost all of the stat boosts of a full blooded ogre, none of the HD calories that optimizers hate.



Large size is always nice, but by mid lvs, the fighter can afford a permanent enlarge person (or if you are a goliath barb, will always be large in fights anyways).
... Unless he's playing a psychic warrior who can boost his size even higher. That is an interesting point though; if it weren't for psionic size shenanigans allowing buyoff for 1 point of LA for large races would be fair. I mean buyoff used according to its stated purpose: to lose LA from obsolete special abilities. As said stat bumps actually get better as you reach higher levels, since they're still useful and the lost level of HP doesn't hurt as much later on. Yeah, if he does break the game I'd blame the expansion power not the race, and as I said a pure damage dealer won't do it.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 12:29 PM
So much to refer to! Haha, you guys are truly fantastic. This is turning out way more helpful than I expected. I hope you'll all be ok with my asking more questions in the future.


This is the one I was reffering to. Its not completely OP and gives you a decent trade off for a +1 LA imo. I would use it as just a base race instead of a templete.

The half ogre orc is alright if you rly want a 2nd lvl char to have a 26 Str. Prolly the only time hes going to compare to a caster in his entire career. Likewise with the Half Ogre Half Orc. The rest just seem over the top for PCs tho.

I might actually check with my group to see about replacing the regular half giant race stats with the templete stats myself. (This is my opinion tho, since the most frequent DM in my group complains that most of the party is usually only stat blocks)

Half giant template? I'm afraid I don't know about this one.


Wild racial template (Dragon #306) is LA +0. Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2, speed +5'.

Goliath Barbarian racial substitution gains a size increase while raging. Add Half-Ogre to go up to huge... augmented expansion gets you up to colossal.

The idea of this is pretty ridiculous. I don't know if I could rightfully accept him becoming colossal, honestly. And that Strength bonus...

So, here's something else I should have mentioned. We're using a 32 point buy for characters. Which would mean he could choose to have 8 points in int and cha, going down to literally 3 int and 2 cha. I'm not sure how I feel about a character who only slightly passes the threshold of sentience.. But I admit it's sort of neat :P.


As noted several times above, I'd say the +1 LA template will be fine for this. I would also recommend checking in with the player of the half-giant favoured soul - if he/she was planning to be the "get big and smash things with my very big weapon" person, he/she'll feel overshadowed by the half-ogre. But then, he/she's still a caster, so will have other things they could easily refocus on.

He doesn't seem to care about being big, really. In fact, he's holding off his exact roll until the others have their characters complete, so he won't intrude. The idea of half-giant was that he wanted to be big and strong without losing charisma: A "Big, powerful, manly voice" sort of thing (He wants to invoke the spirit of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0GxmsCkE0Y this guy. But I do worry his +2 strength will become chump change next to the ogrorc.

Now, I think I'm going to go ahead and go with it, though. The wild template... Is more debatable. Probably won't allow it.

tyckspoon
2010-12-03, 12:43 PM
The idea of this is pretty ridiculous. I don't know if I could rightfully accept him becoming colossal, honestly. And that Strength bonus...


Huge is honestly the biggest size that is anywhere near practical for most situations, and usually you want to keep at Large. Remember that when you hit Huge, you're already taking up a 3x3 space on the map, need 16+ feet of clearance for headroom, and weigh in excess of 2 tons. Most structures are simply not built for creatures that big, so you probably won't have to deal with it in an indoors adventure (dungeon/tower/castle raids, cave crawls, even dense forest won't usually provide enough space to use Huge size.) Going up to Gargantuan or Colossal just makes it worse; there isn't a lot of area other than open sky and plains that will fit a 32 foot, 16 ton, 4x4 block, not without squeezing or special movement modes like Burrowing or being incorporeal that let you occupy part of the ground instead.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 12:47 PM
Oh I recognize that it's impractical, honestly. My party is far more concerned with the "neat" factor than actual high power.

However, I should note that they happen to think really high numbers are neat.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-03, 12:55 PM
Without LA Buyoff:

+2 LA version, not at all

+1 LA verison, maybe

~

The way that Level Adjusted Characters can 'cheat' the system is by being very strong and playing as a Barbarian or other high-damage meat shield types. This is the sort of thing that Half-Ogres can do and possibly get away with.

A 0 LA Barbarian would have higher BAB and more hit points, but the +2 LA Half-Ogre has free reach and +6 STR. This can be a good trade-off and isn't anywhere near as overbalanced as many options in d&d. (Especially a Feral Mineral-Warrior Barbarian instead.)

I wouldn't even consider this boosting the characters class Tier, since they aren't gaining more versatility, they will just be able to do a better job at what they do already.

*edit*

I would also love to see how if your character Roleplay out the differences between a Half-Ogre, Half-Giant and Halfling.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 05:50 PM
A rephrasing an also a new question: ...That would mean +10 strength for +1 LA, which is sort of a joke. Since we're using a 32 point buy, they could dump int and cha, which makes me wonder... What is the penalty of having int 3 cha 2. I mean, there's the obvious "fail all charisma or int checks ever", but is that really it? I thought he'd be subject to magic more but the saves don't align with those. And as long as there's an intelligent, charismatic person in the party I don't really see the weakness coming into play.

Antonok
2010-12-03, 07:14 PM
A rephrasing an also a new question: ...That would mean +10 strength for +1 LA, which is sort of a joke. Since we're using a 32 point buy, they could dump int and cha, which makes me wonder... What is the penalty of having int 3 cha 2. I mean, there's the obvious "fail all charisma or int checks ever", but is that really it? I thought he'd be subject to magic more but the saves don't align with those. And as long as there's an intelligent, charismatic person in the party I don't really see the weakness coming into play.

Touch of Idiocy spell comes to mind, or any spell that damages those 2 abil scores. uber strength doesn't mean much when they're paralyzed. And of course u always run the risk of the char going ME SMASH! in a town and possably getting the entire party killed.


Half giant template? I'm afraid I don't know about this one.

I meant half ogre sry, keep saying half giant for some reason.

faceroll
2010-12-03, 07:45 PM
As noted several times above, I'd say the +1 LA template will be fine for this. I would also recommend checking in with the player of the half-giant favoured soul - if he/she was planning to be the "get big and smash things with my very big weapon" person, he/she'll feel overshadowed by the half-ogre. But then, he/she's still a caster, so will have other things they could easily refocus on.

I disagree. By RAW, the template gives an additional +4 con, +8 str, and +2 NA. That is overkill.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 08:09 PM
I disagree. By RAW, the template gives an additional +4 con, +8 str, and +2 NA. That is overkill.

Oh, ok. I see this now. However, I will argue that you still don't get those bonuses. Those bonuses were made for characters who increase in size. The ogre template is applied before the game begins, as it is by birth. Consider that you don't gain bonuses of strength just for being big, else humans would have +8 strength for being larger than smaller creatures.

Faceroll, would you consider the template too powerful if you did NOT include these increases in statistics due to size?

tyckspoon
2010-12-03, 08:40 PM
Oh, ok. I see this now. However, I will argue that you still don't get those bonuses. Those bonuses were made for characters who increase in size. The ogre template is applied before the game begins, as it is by birth. Consider that you don't gain bonuses of strength just for being big, else humans would have +8 strength for being larger than smaller creatures.

Faceroll, would you consider the template too powerful if you did NOT include these increases in statistics due to size?

They're actually meant for creatures that you are advancing by HD. Note, tho, that existing creatures aren't supposed to gain HD and get bigger- the 'advancement by HD' listing is officially to represent specimens that are just naturally bigger and meaner than the average member listed in the statblock. So.. yeah, they're bigger by birth too, and they use that bonus chart. In the absence of specific instructions on an ability, the 'Increasing Size' chart is also the only general reference for what happens you size up a creature.

(Humans don't have +8 Strength over Halflings because the chart is only for changing size categories. In a creature's natural size category, its stats are whatever the monster entry says they are.)

Runestar
2010-12-03, 09:01 PM
You can run a "large" with 10' reach etc Half-Ogre who is only 7' tall and thereby easily fit into a dungeon designed for medium creatures without penalty.

He would still take up 2x2 squares, which is how I size my dungeons, rather than by height. So he might still face mobility issues in enclosed areas.

faceroll
2010-12-03, 09:15 PM
Oh, ok. I see this now. However, I will argue that you still don't get those bonuses. Those bonuses were made for characters who increase in size. The ogre template is applied before the game begins, as it is by birth. Consider that you don't gain bonuses of strength just for being big, else humans would have +8 strength for being larger than smaller creatures.

That'd be making up a rule, which is fine, but see Tyckspoon's response on why it's not very good reasoning for the rule.


Faceroll, would you consider the template too powerful if you did NOT include these increases in statistics due to size?

I think it would be much more in line with your game if they didn't get the additional bonuses from an increase in size.


In the absence of specific instructions on an ability, the 'Increasing Size' chart is also the only general reference for what happens you size up a creature.

Not disagreeing with anything you've said, just posting a little more information:
I have the particular issue with half-ogre in it, and it explicitly states that you gain those bonuses if you increase in size. It's not nebulous at all.

herrhauptmann
2010-12-03, 09:20 PM
what's really messed up is he could take 3 levels of stone blessed PRC and become a dwarf/gnome/Goliath for all intents and purposes and start taking those racial PRC as well.


What's wrong with that?? Seriously, what's wrong with a Large sized half minotaur or half ogre who gets a +4 dodge vs giants (who are his size), and a +1 vs various races that are medium/small sized? I finally got to make a half minotaur who has entered the deepwarden PrC, and will shortly be entering the Deepstone Sentinel PrC. I think I'll enter the dwarf paragon class around level 14 or so.

Regarding half ogre with 3 int, wis and cha.
That's a dangerous tradeoff to make. Only dropping to 0 con kills you directly, but dropping to 0 in the other 5 stats will almost guarantee your death, especially if the rest of the party can't carry your comatose butt. By the time such a character becomes a serious danger, it would be trivial to incapacitate him by stat damage.

The size change chart, is really intended for monsters with additional HD. You know how the MM has a line that says advancement: HD X-Y Huge, HD Y+ Gargantuan? That's where the chart is intended to be used, for monsters. Using it on player characters, particularly something like the halfminotaur, is where the chart gets abused.

Sorasen:
If your players are looking at the 28 str, level 4 character solely for the 'cool' factor involved, then I really don't think you have to worry about them getting abusive such a character (particularly in regards to the warhulking hurler)

tyckspoon
2010-12-03, 09:28 PM
That's where the chart is intended to be used, for monsters. Using it on player characters, particularly something like the halfminotaur, is where the chart gets abused.


The really dumb part is it could have very easily been caught with a little bit of clear-thinking editing. Instead of saying 'increase to Large size and gain all the benefits thereof', write 'the character is Large. The character takes up a 2x2 space and has a 10' natural reach.' There ya go. The intended benefits are conveyed and the 'Increase Size' chart is not invoked.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-03, 10:15 PM
That'd be making up a rule, which is fine, but see Tyckspoon's response on why it's not very good reasoning for the rule.



I think it would be much more in line with your game if they didn't get the additional bonuses from an increase in size.

I think my reasoning would be intention, though. They gave the half-ogre a strength modifier of +4. With the size increase bonus that would be +12. Why would a half-ogre match the strength benefit of a full ogre? As a race with a modifier all its own does not change in stats for size, I wouldn't include this.

While it makes sense that a character of particularly large size by birth would have better stats, a half-ogres stats would be typical (for an ogre.) So I'd figure it's not a stat increase, but rather just a balancing. Likewise I wouldn't see a gnome having +10 strength for being a medium creature with this template. It just feels weird.

Essentially, I'm determining this creature's template increases the size it was meant to have.


So this is really ok? Even with the unearthly +10 atk? Just want to be absolutely certain :P. What would people suggest of the half giant? He particularly doesn't want a cha penalty.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-12-04, 03:41 PM
Melees can't have nice things. Ban it.

Ban them fighter feats while your at it. They are too weak compared to Incantrix+metamagic.

:smallwink:

Greenish
2010-12-04, 06:23 PM
The really dumb part is it could have very easily been caught with a little bit of clear-thinking editing.The really, really dumb part (at least for half-minotaur) is that the template specifically tells you to add the stat modifiers from increased size on top of the normal ones from the template. :smallamused:

faceroll
2010-12-04, 06:25 PM
Melees can't have nice things. Ban it.

Ban them fighter feats while your at it. They are too weak compared to Incantrix+metamagic.

:smallwink:

Dude, that's not helpful at all. Lord.Sorasen is asking for advice about what he should allow as DM. Do you see any Incantatrixes in the party?