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Arceius
2010-12-03, 09:24 PM
Right, so here's the gist. I'm making my own Role Playing System because I have no life and way to much time on my hands. I've begun to set definitions for things, and I've reached the magic stage (Magic is an integral part of the game). I quickly found trouble in thinking up schools of magic ("schools" will change, I've used it so you guys know exactly what I'm talking about) to encompass all different ways magic can be used. Therefore I have come to the infinite wisdom of the internet to see if you can find magic to break free from the molds of my seven schools of magic. For your system breaking convenience I have included as detailed a list as I can think up. The seven schools, in no particular order, are Alteration, Conjuration, Divination, Illusion, Biomancy, Elementalism, and Neuromancy. Definitions of each and examples are below.
(Keep in mind that there is some overlap between the schools and these things can very well be achieved through the use of several different schools)

Alteration- Magic that changes the properties, or form of something.

Spells of this school include: Creating sentient objects; Enchanting weapons, armor, mundane objects, and people; Changing the basic properties of something such as making a object magnetic, make water flow uphill, or cause something to become frictionless.

Conjuration- To bring something into being that was not present before.

Spells of this school include: Teleporting objects from place to place, summoning a person or creature to where you are, creating a copy of an object.

Divination- The act of discerning information from a place outside of your own perceptions.

Spells of this school include: Scying far objects, hearing conversations you are not privy to, seeing future events, and listening to the thoughts of others.

Illusion- The presenting of false perceptions that deviate from actual reality.

Spells of this school include: Creating false images, hiding things from sight, changing the appearance of something, and making sounds or feelings.
(Note that Illusion is entirely false, and, for the most part, external. Most illusions do not alter a subjects mind in any way.)

Biomancy- Magic relating to the manipulation of organic matter.

Spells of this school include: Healing, the curing of poisons and diseases, necromancy, and shape shifting.

Elementalism- The manipulation of the base forces of the universe in order bring about a change or reaction.

Spells in this school include: Creating and manipulating electromagnetic forces, manipulating gravity, making fire and moving heat, as well as the manipulation of the basic elements (see periodic table; NOT "water, air, fire, earth" BS) and the way they react to each other.

Neuromancy- Magic that deviates mental procesess from their norm.

Spells of this school include: Geass-like spells, manipulating memories, conditioning, and (after a little bit of Alteration) classic psychic effects.

(Note: The names are by no means final, if you have a suggestion for a new name for one of the schools though I'd be happy to hear it.
I am also aware of the similarity with Dungeons and Dragons terminology. The names are not final and I'm not going to change any of them just because someone else has used the same generic terminology.)

gkathellar
2010-12-03, 09:55 PM
Too exhausted to do real critical review, but name suggestions!

Alteration = Transfiguration or Morphology. I always liked those word. Either way, alteration is a boring word.

Conjuration = Invocation. Actually conjuration is fine, but if you use the real meaning of the word invocation instead of the D&D meaning, it's a pretty straight alternative to conjuration.

Divination = Divination. It's a pretty mystical, interesting word that means exactly what it's supposed to.

Illusion = Illusion. Again, fine as is.

Biomancy = Not sure, but biomancy sounds wrong. Also, bio means life, and if this deals with dead tissue as well, it's a big of a misnomer. You could use one of the Alteration words.

Elementalism = Alchemy. It's basically chemistry/physics, right? So the mystical version of those makes sense.

Neuromancy = Beguilement. Or Beguiling.

Rob Roy
2010-12-03, 11:49 PM
Neuromancy- Magic that deviates mental procesess from their norm.
This sounds like psionics.

Arceius
2010-12-04, 12:20 AM
I've never messed with the fluff of Psionics. My impression has always been it's "magic" with your mind. Neuromancy is not so, in fact Neuromancy isn't even psychic powers at all, but rather any magic that directly effects the mind. These are groupings of different types of magic, not sources for magic and I already stated that I was aware of the similarities with anything else that uses this same sort of general terminology.

blackjack217
2010-12-04, 12:40 AM
Boimancy might be a bit big/strong as it is explicitly stated to be necromancy +

un_known
2010-12-04, 12:45 AM
Biomancy should effect living tissue only as it is the controlling of organic living tissues.
Ie: healing and curing and purging, also ressing.

While the control/manipulation of dead tissue would fall under Necrosis(Necromancy)

Possibly Cerebremancy instead of Neuromancy?

Dilb
2010-12-04, 12:55 AM
What would you like criticism on, exactly? In any case, some thoughts:

Alteration vs Elementalism vs Biomancy vs Neuromancy: if everything is made of elements, why is it necessary to alter something rather than fiddle with it elementally? What does biomancy do that is outside of alteration or elementalism? What does neuromancy do that biomancy (and also alteration (and also elementalism)) doesn't?

If illusions are entirely external, and therefore 'real', what's the difference between an illusion and a conjuration/alteration/elementalism?

These aren't problems if schools are just an area of study, not a tangibly different type of magic. If they are tangibly different, though, then it's annoying that you might need any of 5 different schools for a spell. For example:

Instantaneous intoxication
This spells immediately makes a person drunk

Is it neuromancy, because it messes with their mind, biomancy because alcohol is a poison, alteration because it changes some blood to alcohol, elementalism because it rearranges some blood sugar into alcohol, or conjuration because it creates some alcohol inside the person?

blackjack217
2010-12-04, 01:00 AM
Instantaneous intoxication
This spells immediately makes a person drunk

Is it neuromancy, because it messes with their mind, biomancy because alcohol is a poison, alteration because it changes some blood to alcohol, elementalism because it rearranges some blood sugar into alcohol, or conjuration because it creates some alcohol inside the person?

That's the Inheritance magic system in a nutshell.

Arceius
2010-12-04, 01:12 AM
Instantaneous intoxication
This spells immediately makes a person drunk

Is it neuromancy, because it messes with their mind, biomancy because alcohol is a poison, alteration because it changes some blood to alcohol, elementalism because it rearranges some blood sugar into alcohol, or conjuration because it creates some alcohol inside the person?

They are schools of study, rather than tangibly different types of magic. Or rather, they are different "groupings" of magic in the way that "magic messing with dead people" is necromancy as a whole. Even if they were not though, it would not be a problem as explained below.

Many schools can reach the same result, the important thing is how you reached it. So (unlike in DnD) when you create or attempt a spell you must know how your doing it, rather than just what your result is.

Therefore:
"Instantaneous intoxication
This spells immediately makes a person drunk"
is not a valid spell. It is the result part of a spell.

The easiest way to achieve the effect would likely be Conjuration (I believe that I am going to take gkathellar suggestion of Invocation). Have some Alcohol present and conjure it into the persons stomach.

Intoxication
Cost: X mana, a measure of Alcohol large enough to inebriate the target.
Conjures a measure of alcohol into the subjects stomach, rendering them quickly and effectively drunk.

To achieve the effect instantaneously though, you would have to dip into the realm of Neuromancy - but you'd have to know (or reasonably be able to know) what effects alcohol has on the mind to be able to duplicate it.

Instantaneous Intoxication
Cost: X mana
Duplicates the effects of inebriation in a target.

Dilb
2010-12-04, 01:27 AM
They are schools of study, rather than tangibly different types of magic. Or rather, they are different "groupings" of magic in the way that "magic messing with dead people" is necromancy as a whole. Even if they were not though, it would not be a problem as explained below.

Saying you need to know how spells work doesn't eliminate the problem, though it does make it a bit smaller. So now we have
Instantaneous intoxication
This spell immediately turns a small part of the blood of a person into alcohol, causing them to be drunk within moments

which is now alteration, elementalism, or biomancy.

Still, that doesn't really matter if the schools aren't tangible different or opposed. But if they aren't tangibly different, then what's the point of having magic schools? What affect does this have on
a) the game mechanics?
b) the players?
c) the game world?

Arceius
2010-12-04, 01:50 AM
Instantaneous intoxication
This spell immediately turns a small part of the blood of a person into alcohol, causing them to be drunk within moments

which is now alteration, elementalism, or biomancy.

Yet again it is a question of how exactly your going about reaching the result of your spell. If you do the equivalent of "brew" alcohol in their blood through the normal reactions it would be elementalism. Should you alter the base properties of the subjects blood to be alcoholic (a mighty feat) then it would be alteration, and likely kill them depending on the amount :smalleek:. The only way I can attribute such a spell to biomancy would be if you created some sort of organ inside them that somehow went through the process of turning the blood alcoholic (I really have no clue how that might work).

This is a good place to point out one of the parts of the system (that's not really relevant to the thread overall, but just your questions). Every spell has a given Complexity, that determines how much energy you have to put in for a given result. The more schools and steps in the spell, the higher the complexity. For instance, take this high complexity constant effect version of the spell.

Prolonged Instantaneous Intoxication
Cost: X mana
Schools: X focus in Biomancy; X Alteration.
This spell creates a tiny organ in one of the blood vessels of the victim(Bio). This blood vessel strips a measure of sugars from body and converts them instantaneously to alcohol (Alt). To remain active this organ pulls it's energy from the host as though it were a natural organ and provides alcohol in time with the heartbeat.

The result from this spell is that the higher the persons heart rate the more alcohol is presented into their bloodstream. Thus, if they tried to fight you the effort would inebriate them making them an easy fight (or just for the lulz of seeing them constantly drunk).

I suppose a better way to say it would be that the different schools represent different ways to reach in certain end with magic. The point of the different schools is to represent a wide selection of choices to the players. In this system everyone had access to magic, but to actually gain any sort of real power they much study and practice quite a lot (there are those though, who have an innate connection to magic, making it much easier than it is for others). When a player must craft a spell they have to work around the limitations of the schools they have knowledge in.

Zeta Kai
2010-12-04, 02:39 AM
Too exhausted to do real critical review, but name suggestions!

Alteration = Transfiguration or Morphology. I always liked those word. Either way, alteration is a boring word.

Conjuration = Invocation. Actually conjuration is fine, but if you use the real meaning of the word invocation instead of the D&D meaning, it's a pretty straight alternative to conjuration.

Divination = Divination. It's a pretty mystical, interesting word that means exactly what it's supposed to.

Illusion = Illusion. Again, fine as is.

Biomancy = Not sure, but biomancy sounds wrong. Also, bio means life, and if this deals with dead tissue as well, it's a big of a misnomer. You could use one of the Alteration words.

Elementalism = Alchemy. It's basically chemistry/physics, right? So the mystical version of those makes sense.

Neuromancy = Beguilement. Or Beguiling.

I agree on all of these points. The allure of _____mancy is undeniable, but sometimes you've got to pass the low-hanging fruit by if you want the juiciest pick. Choose the better terms, & leave _____mancy to ripen & fall.

Although, on second thought, Mentalism sounds better than Beguilement... hmmm...

Arceius
2010-12-04, 02:45 AM
Zeta Kai: I actually hate ____mancy. I want to get rid of them. Which is why I asked for name suggestions! :smallbiggrin:

Aniu
2010-12-04, 03:58 AM
I'm going to suggest Headology instead of Neuromancy, just thanks to the influence that Pratchett has had on me so far... :smalltongue:

I would advise that Necromancy be separated from Biomancy, rather have two schools which affect two different areas (life and unlife)

In this case, perhaps use a word derived from 'Anima', or 'vita' as an alternate to Biomancy. I would suggest Animancy, but it sounds just as wrong.

I don't see any reason to change Alteration, Conjuration or Divination. Elementalism seems slightly awkward as well, but I can't think of anything better for now, so I'll leave it be.

Just my opinion, discount as you will.

boomwolf
2010-12-04, 04:48 PM
Actually I would rename Biomancy to some other name, maybe Animulation (animula-latin for soul, as you deal with life and death.)

Considering that positive and negative energy are two sides of the same coin, I always thought it is more logical to have them in the same school.



As for Elementalism, I would recommend renaming it to Energisem or something, as lightning, fire and cold (yet not acid, the classic "earth" element damage) are energy and has nothing to do with the periodic table, and leave the periodic elements for Alternation (rename to Transmutation, Transfiguration or Morphology or something) gravity and the like can be viewed as kinetic energy or something...

Arceius
2010-12-04, 05:06 PM
Remember, they're just different ways to bring about results. Elementalism is magic that fiddles with the base "elemental" forces of the universe. Electromagnetism, Strong Force, Weak Force, Gravitation, and the manipulation of actual elements all fall under that school. Alteration (Probably changing to Transfiguration) is a much more narrow "action based" school, it is the act of changing somethings base properties or form. The act of "altering" it.

As for changing up Biomancy/Necromancy into different schools, I don't think I will. One because Biomancy (I need a new name for that so badly, that one is terrible) is the manipulation of organic matter, and only that. So it's not too big of a school. But the second reason is just because I like having seven schools... I like the number seven. :smalltongue: