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Otogi
2010-12-04, 05:51 PM
I've been showing up sporadically over the last *thinks back*...month in a half? Well in around that amount of time, I've been asking for ideas, concepts and inspiration for a Shin Megami Tensei RPG. I know I've been rather vague about the idea and I would really like to thank those who gave me some some advice, so here's what I've arranged so far! I would also like to note that the fantastic FFd6 RPG by Dust (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173958) was a huge inspiration to this game, even inspiring the main dice roll! I've also posted this on the TV Tropes forum (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=nux5mdpl9y8b765v8om44yms&page=1), and I've been getting help by another fan, Neccy 60!

Well, without further ado, here's what I've got for Shin Megami Tensei: Better Title Pending (SMT: BTP, for short)

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:01 PM
Base Mechanic

2d6 + modifiers

Stats, Levels and Experience

Stats fall into the 6 original stats from the first SMT games:


Strength (Physical Attack and Damage)
Magic (Magic Damage and MP)
Intelligence (Magic Attack and Negotiations)
Agility (Evasion and Turn Order)
Vitality (Defense and HP)
Luck (Critical Hits, Random Drops and Escape Attempts)


At character creation, everybody gets 24 points to spread amongst these stats, with a cap of 6 at 1st level. Characters gain 1 stat point every level. Stats give modifiers, giving a bonus to secondary stat like HP and Physical Attacks.

Alright, with stats out of the way, there's levels and XP. There are 30 levels in total, and you need 10 XP to level up each time (meaning that the amount you need to level up never changes [thought that may change]). You get XP for mostly for combat, usually by fighting an enemy from -2 to +2 the party level. Fighting enemies +3 (and for every +2)the party level grants an extra XP per 2 levels, while enemies -3 the party level give no XP. Mini-bosses also give +1 XP, while bosses give +2 XP. You can also gain XP from special challenges or just good roleplaying.

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:05 PM
Classes

These represent several of the playable characters found in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise. There are 8 in total, but most of them come in two categories: Summoners and Enhancers. Summoners call demons to assist them in combat, while Enhancers empower themselves (either using personae or shifting into a demonic form). The classes (and their basis/inspiration) are:


Demon Controller [Shin Megami Tensei I, II & Strange Journey] - Can call 2 demons into battle, but lack special abilities
Devil Summoner [Soul Hackers, Raidou Kuzunoha] - Can call a demon into battle, let's them advance faster and can use special "combination skills"
Persona User [Persona 3 & 4) - Can empower themselves with an ever-evolving persona
Avatar Tuner [Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2] - Can transform into a suped-up demonic form
Wild Card [Persona 1, 2, 3 & 4] - Can empower themselves with a variety of static personae
Devil Child [Devil Children & Demi Kids] - Has a permanent demon ally that can improve and evolve through fusion, though they aren't restricted to only using them.
Demon Sponsored/Demi-Fiend [Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocture] - A part demon that can call another demon and evolve using demonic essence
Demon General [Majin Tensei I, II and Devil Survivor] - Can call a demon and enhance them with special abilities


As of right now, these are all just sketches on a notebook without much detail. Something I do know is that none of them are set up into any role like fighter, caster or healer; stats and demon/persona/skill selection do that. Most of them have also have a bank limiting to the amount of something they can have (such as demons for summoners and skills for Avatar Tuners). This increases with level.

There might also be advanced classes that allow the PCs to specialize into something like Half-Demon or the like if I can come up with more (and give them a better name)

If I ever get a proper handle on these classes, I'll probably make other classes emulating games like Shin Megami Tensei: If... or the magic-using companions from the first few games. Hey, maybe I'll set up playable demons!

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:06 PM
Abilities

Defining characteristics that characters gain as they advance through the game (though they gain 2 at 1st level). They're the feats or merits of the game, and are divided into two different categories: General and Class, which are pretty self-explanatory. Some of them have prerequisites, from being 1st level, to having high enough stats to having another ability. Some so far are Favored Arcana/Species, Improved Fusion, Mesian/Gaian and Non-Human.
I have some of them down just fine, but others need some work and I'm still not even sure how a few will work out in the game. I know I listed a few already, but here's a complete list of what I've got so far:


Non-Human (Now in Animal, Machine, Manikin/Innocent and Shadow flavor, but a bit of a mystery of what to do with it)
Mesian (Bonus to Neg. for Law, vs. Chaos)
Gaean (Bonus to Neg. for Chaos, vs. Law)
Improved Fusion (Fusion is now demon's level/demons fused + 1)
Favored Arcana/Species (Bonus to Neg. and vs. a specific species or arcana)
Favored Skill (Gain a bonus on using a skill tree such as Agi or multi-attack physical)
Exceptional Talent (Gain a bonus to non-combat checks)
Reduced Summoning (Summoning demons costs less MP)
Alert (Less likely to become surprised)
Shared Body (Still not sure)
Companion (Someone to help with mundande and maybe story tasks, but that's all I have so far)
Weapon Specialist (Gain a bonus to Attack and Damage with a particular weapon type)
Sythesizer (Can enchant weapons are armor)
Diplomat (Straight bonus to Neg.)
Juggernaut (Bonus to HP)
Arcane (Bonus to MP)
Child of Myth (Bonus to Neg. and vs. demons of a specific mythology)
Berzerker (Avatar Tuners become half-demons with high attack & criticals, but low defense and the inablitiy to use skills)


Still more to come, of course!

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:08 PM
Gear

The standard affair of things found in most games: Weapons (both Melee and Ranged), Ammo, Armor, Accessories, Tools and Items. Weapons have an Accuracy and Power rating (both enhanced by Strength) and Armors have a DEF and EVA rating (enhanced by Vitality and Agility respectively). Accessories give special bonuses like elemental resistances, stat boosts or status effect prevention. Tools are equipment demon/persona summoners need to do their summons. They also give bonuses like increased stock and stat bonuses to summons. Items are one-use nick-knacks that heal HP, heal MP, cure status ailments, deal damage or status ailments, resurrect allies and even permanently increase stats. Ranged weapons also have ammo that allows the wielder to deal elemental damage or status ailments with the weapon.

Every character has 6 gear slots: 2 weapon slots, an ammo slot, an armor slot, an accessory slot and a tool slot. Demon Sponsored, however, have only 1 slot: magatama. Magatama act as a weapon, armor and accessory all in one. They cannot be bought, only gained as a Demon Sponsored increases in level.

Currency used to pay for items and equipment, amongst other things. Usually Yen in the human world (or not, whatever) and Macca in the Makai or Makai-fied world.

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:11 PM
Skills

Or more accurately, spells and powers. Skills allow characters and demons to attack with higher and elemental damage, boost stats, heal and many other things. They come in different type, such as Physical, Fire, Expel, Recovery or Ailment. Demons also have affinities that aligned with a certain type that lessen the stat prerequisite to learn skills (see below) by about 1 (perhaps 2).

In order to learn a certain skill, a character or demon needs to have stats at least as high as the prerequisite listed in the description (e.g., VIT 8 and MAG 5) and be able to reach the skill tier. Skill Tiers go from 1 to 9, and a character or demon can access tiers of their level/3, rounded down (so a level 14 character can learn tier 4 skills and can learn tier 5 when they level up).

Skills require a certain expenditure of HP (for physical) or MP (for everything else), but can also be passive, meaning they are always active and never need to spend either HP or MP.

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:14 PM
Combat

(Big post under spoiler)

Also known as the 'ol Press Turn system. Just like the newer games of Shin Megami Tensei (except Strange Journey for some strange reason), whenever someone scores a critical hit or hits the elemental weakness on somebody else, that someone gets an extra "half-turn" to attack, use a skill/item or pass. On the other hand, scoring a critical miss or using an element that somebody else blocks, absorbs or reflects causes that someone to lose not only their turn ends regardless of how many half-turns they had. One can gain as many half-turns as they want, but can only accrue one half-turn per enemy.

Before any of that begins, however, everyone makes an Initiative roll to see who goes when. The highest goes first, the second highest goes second and so on.

On their turn, characters have several options listed here:


Attack (Make an attack against an opponent with a weapon)
Skill (Use a skill)
Defend (Reduce the amount of damage take by 50%, but are unable to evade)
Talk (Try to open negotiations with the target [see below])
Item (Use an item)
Summon/Change (Summon a demon, switch personae or change form. Switching personae doesn't actually use a turn)
Pass (Give a turn to someone else, as well as an extra half-turn)
Escape (A group action, allowing to escape with a collective Strength vs. Agility contest)

Combatants have 4 combat statistics:


Attack (Weapon/Skill Accuracy + Str/Int + 2d6)
Damage (Weapon/Skill Power + Str/Mag + 2d6)
Evasion (Armor EVA + Agi)
Defense (Armor DEF + Vit)


For an attack to connect, an attack roll must match or exceed the defender's evasion score. If the attack hits, the attacker makes a damage roll, subtracting the amount from the defender's defense. If the attack rolls under the defender's evasion score, the attack misses. Either an attacker or can deliberately fail any of these checks (especially useful when a defender has a particular elemental reaction; see below)

When a combatant rolls a natural 10, 11 or 12 on an attack, they score a critical hit, dealing double damage and giving the attacker a half-turn. Before the attacker can do this, however, he has to make an attack roll, adding his Luck bonus.

Combatants usually have some special reaction to elemental attacks. Here's a list of the degrees the elements might effect a combatant:


Weak: Takes 50% more damage from the element
Resist: Takes 50% less damage from the element
Block: Takes no damage from the element
Reflect: The attacker takes the damage
Drain: Any damage that would have happened is instead healed


Combatants can have multiple reactions to different elements, but reactions don't stack and only the higher reaction works (Drain > Reflect > Block > Resist > Weak)

During combat, combatants may sometimes be afflicted with some kind of impairment. These are called status ailments, which debuff whoever is afflicted with them. A list of them so far:


Poison: Loses HP every turn until at 10%, lowers defense
Silence: Unable to use skills, summon or change
Confusion: Random chance of either doing nothing, attacking allies, helping enemies or acting * normal
Rage: Will always attack enemies. Highers power, but lowers accuracy and defense
Fear: Won't do anything, may run from the battle
Exhaustion: Losses MP every turn until at 10%
Enervation: Halves stats
Charmed: Switches sides
(Might add down, dizzy and stone, but not sure).


Fusion Skills: When using a certain arrangement of skills, two or more players can initiate a special attack called a Fusion Skill. To initiate a fusion skill, each player part of the initiation must use a skill from the prerequisite. The fusion skill is activated when the last initiator, but until then, enemies and allies can do as still use their turns and go on.

Whenever a hidden enemy attacks, have an Agility vs. Luck roll for each character (enemies can roll against more than one character). If the enemy is successful, it (and only it) gets a free half-action on whoever it won against in the contest. If the character is successful, they don't get attacked...unless it's by another enemy (or maybe they're just immune since they already see it coming; not totally sure). After the surprise, roll initiative as normal and continue. Remember, the players can also surprise an enemy they know of if they take the special precautions (hiding in the shadows, getting to higher ground, trojan horse, etc.)

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:16 PM
Negotiations

Fighting isn't the only was to deal with demons. At anytime during battle you may try to talk to a demon with a Neg check. When you first talk to a demon, you take a stance, whether Friendly or Threatening. Depending on the demon's personality and what stance you take, you either gain a +3 bonus, -3 penalty or neither. After that, each person in the party can make a check, adding bonuses or penalties depending on what they say and whether the demon likes it or not. Different personalities like different things, of course, and even the demons with the same personality act and feel differently than others. Bonuses and penalties range from 1 to 5. Positive and negative reactions are cumulative, and every demon has a threshold that may cause them to attack, retreat, heal the party, give an item or join in (see below).

If you have the same demon with you, make a Luck check. If you succeed, the demon gives you an item. If not, they either attack or flee (50/50). If the demons happens to be dead, the roll is an automatic failure.

Additionally, Light and Dark demons are difficult or even impossible to recruit, sometimes even to talk to. In order to do so, the time must be at it's maximum rating or a character must have a special skill, like Dark Talk or Hymn. Demon reactions are:


Attack: The demon attacks, gaining a surprise round.
Retreat: The demon flees, possibly by being asked
Item/Heal: The demon grants an item, or heals you/one of your demons
Join: The demon joins your stock


As demons come in many shapes and size, so do their personalities. Here is an undetailed list of some I've made (and a few I took from a previous project)


Trickster
Pious
Hedonist
Sagacious
Narcissist
Foppish
Artistic
Seductive
Child-like
Adolescent
Animalistc/Beastly
Jack
Knightly

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:18 PM
Alignment, Time and Non-Combat (?)

Alignment is how characters view the universe, whether through a Lawful or Chaotic view. It is measured in a meter going from 12 (Law) to -12 (Chaos). Most characters are considered neutral until they reach either +8 or -8, at which point they become lawful or chaotic.

Law believes in order, peace and tradition. Chaos believes in freedom, change and adaptability. Neutral, the balance between the two, believe in personal empowerment, individuality and inherit strength.

Gaining points is pretty much a roleplay thing, as it would be pretty tedious to track down every law and chaos opponent you fight as in other SMT games (although fighting an entire lawful or chaotic stronghold or organization might be different...). Also, Light and Dark are only measured for demons since I'm not quite sure what a "light" and "dark" action is in SMT.

Time phases are way to determine time and it's effect on the world, opening up fusions, new enemies, new forms for Avatar Tuners, etc. Usually go from 1-8. Usually determined by phases of the moon, but may be determined by weather or even seasons. The phase changes with each rest, terminal visit, otherwise non-combat action or just plain waiting around.

In a sitsuation requiring a certain amount of skill (like moving something heavy or hacking a computer) requires a check to do, usually rolling 2d6+Stat Modifier.

Otogi
2010-12-04, 06:27 PM
Enemies and Fusion

Creatures and things you fight against, such as demons, shadows and regular humans

Every creature belong to a species, their physical being and how demon summoners categorize them. This determines their stats, alignments and sometimes personality. A list of them are:


Gods
Goddess
Avatars
Divine
Fallen
Viles
Furies
Fiends
Femme
Earth Mothers
Dragons
Fairies
Demigods
Tyrants
Birds
Beasts
Holy Beasts
Wilders
Haunts
Fouls
Elementals


Every creature also belongs to an Arcana, their spiritual being and the way persona summoners categorize them. This determines the elemental affinity and tactical focus of the monster. Here's another list:


Fool
Magician
Priestess
Empress
Emperor
Hierophant
Lovers
Chariot
Justice
Hermit
Fortune
Strength
Hanged Man
Death
Temperance
Devil
Star
Moon
Sun
Judgment
World


Affinity is the particular skill focus a demon/persona has. It's what they focus in and they receive an ease on stat prerequisites for skills (tiers still apply, though).


Physical
Fire
Ice
Electricity
Wind
Almighty
Expel
Curse
Ailment
Recovery
Support


Fusion: Every demon has a listing of what they can be fused with and what they make. Formula is Demon Level's/Demon's Fused. Species/Arcana is the 1st demon + the 2nd demon, going by chart.

Rank: A"demon's level". Starts at one, but grows as used. Each has a max of 8 levels. They only have to gain 3 XP rather than 10 to level, but only gain skills (and only every 1-3 levels). Everytime they level, the summoner makes a Luck roll. If succeed, the demon/persona gains a mutation when they gain a rank, giving them a stat bonus, a hidden skill or a mutation skill (against their affinity, i.e., a Jack Frost learning Maragi). They always have a skill above their level at or near the end of their rank.

And as far as I know, that's most of what I've got. Like I said, this is just a sketch, but with that in mind, I'm still have trouble with a couple of things. Here's a list of them that' I'm just noticing:


A way to implement Half-Demons and Ascended
How to balance out Summoners vs. Enhancers
Figuring out Bosses and Mini-Bosses
Handling and balance of abilities
Whether or not to put in technical "skills", like driving or athletics.
Ruling whether physical skills use a percentage of HP like in newer games or a straight number like in older games
Determining skill stat prerequisites
Differentiating weapons
Handling tools
Figuring out a good income of money
Figuring out All-Out Attacks
But, other than that, what do you guys think?


There has been a lot of this handled at TV Tropes in the link in the OP, but I wanted to go to this board and see if you guys had any idea or feedback on the project. Thanks if you do, and if not, just thanks for viewing! :smallsmile:

gkathellar
2010-12-04, 06:53 PM
I'm playing Devil Survivor right now. :smallbiggrin:

Of course, it won't really be Shin Megami Tensei unless Magic is dramatically more important than every other stat.

My understanding is that Persona and various of the SMTs take place in different universes? Not that it matters at all, just saying.

Otogi
2010-12-04, 07:03 PM
True, and it's pretty much why I went back to the original SMT stats by splitting Magic into Magic and Intelligence.

From what I understand, pretty much. But hey, Amala network and stuff.

gkathellar
2010-12-04, 09:39 PM
In the games, at least, it's not so much that Magic is fundamentally more powerful - it's that magical skills scale better and that physical-type skills are pretty useless by comparison. Especially with elemental rock-paper scissors.

Edge
2010-12-05, 06:02 AM
Looking good so far. One minor thing, I'd maybe add Asura to the list of species for Avatar Tuner use. The Asura are very clearly singled out in Digital Devil Saga, but whether you consider that noteworthy enough to be included here is up to you.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 01:01 PM
Sounds good, any other ideas?

Edge
2010-12-05, 01:50 PM
Umm... let's see...

Have you considered if you want to include both Garu and Zan skills? I know some people equate them both as Wind, but Zan is usually described as force damage, even if it damage boosters are described as Wind... another call on your part, really.

Also, some of the levelling and XP system seems odd. Given the source material, I'd have assumed you'd have it go up to level 99. Is the reason to avoid grind at the table (which would, admittedly, be pretty damn dull), or something else? Also, the XP requirements for levelling seem... low.

Under combat, may also want to note that hitting a target's weakness(es) inflicts the down condition, which I would heartily suggest you include, as it leads to All-Out Attacks, which gives a sense of party co-operation. And since I note that you say you still need to figure out how they operate, a quick suggestion.

When all of one side in a combat have the down condition, their opponents may elect to perform an All-Out Attack. At least two opponents must elect to perform the All-Out Attack in order for it to take effect, though there is no maximum on the number of participants, nor is it compulsory to perform one - one may always elect to relent from performing an All-Out Attack. If an All-Out Attack is successfully initiated, every participant makes a normal Attack against each of their downed opponents.

How is Avatar Tuner Skill acquisition going to be handled? Are you going to include a form of the Mantra/Hunt Skill system, or streamline it to something else?

Phew... that's a lot more than I thought I had to ask. Hopefully it's constructive.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 02:58 PM
Umm... let's see...

Have you considered if you want to include both Garu and Zan skills? I know some people equate them both as Wind, but Zan is usually described as force damage, even if it damage boosters are described as Wind... another call on your part, really.

Also, some of the levelling and XP system seems odd. Given the source material, I'd have assumed you'd have it go up to level 99. Is the reason to avoid grind at the table (which would, admittedly, be pretty damn dull), or something else? Also, the XP requirements for levelling seem... low.

Under combat, may also want to note that hitting a target's weakness(es) inflicts the down condition, which I would heartily suggest you include, as it leads to All-Out Attacks, which gives a sense of party co-operation. And since I note that you say you still need to figure out how they operate, a quick suggestion.

When all of one side in a combat have the down condition, their opponents may elect to perform an All-Out Attack. At least two opponents must elect to perform the All-Out Attack in order for it to take effect, though there is no maximum on the number of participants, nor is it compulsory to perform one - one may always elect to relent from performing an All-Out Attack. If an All-Out Attack is successfully initiated, every participant makes a normal Attack against each of their downed opponents.

How is Avatar Tuner Skill acquisition going to be handled? Are you going to include a form of the Mantra/Hunt Skill system, or streamline it to something else?

Phew... that's a lot more than I thought I had to ask. Hopefully it's constructive.

I was wondering that, too. I'm going to with Garu first and wait to implement force attacks.

It was another concept from FFd6, but that's precisely why. At first I was thinking about using the 99 cap, but that grind...

Yeah? I thought it'd pass fast and give a level each session, but no good? Any ideas on what I should do with it?

That was a toss up I was...tossing around, but I still haven't decided whether to put it in. I know how they work, just not if I should put them in. These look alright, though.

Avatar Tuners gain Mantras, but Mantras come from levels instead of, say, different enemies. Could be changed, though. I experimented with putting Magitite in the game and having that replace Atma Points, but never found a good way to put it back in.

Hey, whatever you can lend is never to much. :smallwink:

Xegek
2010-12-05, 04:42 PM
One thing, why would anyone want to be a Demon Controller when they could be a Devil Child?

Otogi
2010-12-05, 04:48 PM
A few things. One, Digitial Devils should probably incorporated somehow. Also, why would anyone want to be a Demon Controller when they could be a Devil Child?

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by Digital Devils. As in the novels?

An extra demon, an extra turn. Maybe there should be restrictions to make it more viable and the Devil Child less game breaking?

Vauron
2010-12-05, 04:56 PM
I have thoughts for you. First, is it necessary to split Demon General and Devil Child? I'll grant that I haven't played the games that Demon General and Devil Child are from, but just going off the description there, one could essentially be an ability that the other could take to focus on a single demon

Similarly, I can't help but think the mechanics for an Demon Sponsored and an Avatar Tuner who couldn't leave combat mode would be very similar. Fluff wise they may be different enough, I'm just not sure about them feeling distinct enough.

Incidentally, is fusion going to be as important in your system as it was in, say, P3 or the Raido games? I'm referring to skill inheritance mostly. If there is no inheritance, that'd likely make the fusion system simpler to design, although that might require a larger number of things to fuse. Conversely, if there is inheritance, I can only see that as something your DM/Storyteller needs to do with you. (For instance, "No, I'm not letting you put Victory Cry on Helel. In fact, no Armageddon for you.")

As to balancing Summoners vs Enhancers, perhaps a summoned devil of a given level does not do as much damage with a given skill than an enhancer would? Maybe enhancers have higher stats for their level than demons, or can obtain an additional 'Imma Player' bonus to their effectiveness?

Also, how often do abilities come? 2 at first level is fine, but you need to decide how often they come.

Oh yes, before I forget, you may want to set down guidelines for demon and persona creation. For instance, something like: Level 1 Demons can have up to two weak skills, 20 stat points to distribute, and 1 point to distribute to resistances.*

*I'm vaguely envisioning a system where taking resistances costs points, while adding weaknesses can give back points.

I haven't read whats been said on tvtropes, gonna look there now.


Edit: By 'Digital Devil', I think he means the Avatar Tuners, perhaps simply not making the connection right away. After all, their game was Digital Devil Saga, right?

Edge
2010-12-05, 05:05 PM
Similarly, I can't help but think the mechanics for an Demon Sponsored and an Avatar Tuner who couldn't leave combat mode would be very similar. Fluff wise they may be different enough, I'm just not sure about them feeling distinct enough.

Fluff-wise, they are notably different. Avatar Tuners have a major Hindu/Vedic thing going on, twisted though it is. In the game they come from, they can't learn skills without cannibalising other demons for their Karma and Atma. They're stuck with one affinity, but in time (and with a LOT of grinding) they can theoretically learn every skill in their game.

The Demi-Fiend just kinda... levels up Magatama parasites to learn abilities. He can swap between Magatama out of combat to change his affinities and such, too. Not as familiar with Nocturne as I am with Digital Devil Saga.

Vauron
2010-12-05, 05:20 PM
I'm fully aware of the fluff differences between Naoki's power and Serph's, its just that I'm not sure the crunch would be different between the two. Fundamentally, outside of it being possible for the enemy to throw an Avatar Tuner into human mode, the main difference I see would be that a Demon Sponsored could change his stats and resistances. From the sound of things the way they would gain skills would be largely the same.


Edit: Query: Why would any class look overpowering at this point? Never mind the awesome additional plus turn a Demon Controller would have over a Devil Child? More actions tend to be very useful.

Edge
2010-12-05, 05:32 PM
I'm fully aware of the fluff differences between Naoki's power and Serph's, its just that I'm not sure the crunch would be different between the two. Fundamentally, outside of it being possible for the enemy to throw an Avatar Tuner into human mode, the main difference I see would be that a Demon Sponsored could change his stats and resistances. From the sound of things the way they would gain skills would be largely the same.

Point. However, it is worth noting that human form for the Tuners is occasionally quite useful, as their magic resistance rockets whilst they're in it in game at the expense of becoming really vulnerable to guns.

As it stands, yes, they gain skills a little too similarly. Which is why I'm beginning to think a Mantra system closer to that of the game might be worth considering, even if it'd be a headache to implement - it is basically a second XP bar, after all, and that might be needlessly complicated.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 06:15 PM
I have thoughts for you. First, is it necessary to split Demon General and Devil Child? I'll grant that I haven't played the games that Demon General and Devil Child are from, but just going off the description there, one could essentially be an ability that the other could take to focus on a single demon

Similarly, I can't help but think the mechanics for an Demon Sponsored and an Avatar Tuner who couldn't leave combat mode would be very similar. Fluff wise they may be different enough, I'm just not sure about them feeling distinct enough.

Incidentally, is fusion going to be as important in your system as it was in, say, P3 or the Raido games? I'm referring to skill inheritance mostly. If there is no inheritance, that'd likely make the fusion system simpler to design, although that might require a larger number of things to fuse. Conversely, if there is inheritance, I can only see that as something your DM/Storyteller needs to do with you. (For instance, "No, I'm not letting you put Victory Cry on Helel. In fact, no Armageddon for you.")

As to balancing Summoners vs Enhancers, perhaps a summoned devil of a given level does not do as much damage with a given skill than an enhancer would? Maybe enhancers have higher stats for their level than demons, or can obtain an additional 'Imma Player' bonus to their effectiveness?

Also, how often do abilities come? 2 at first level is fine, but you need to decide how often they come.

Oh yes, before I forget, you may want to set down guidelines for demon and persona creation. For instance, something like: Level 1 Demons can have up to two weak skills, 20 stat points to distribute, and 1 point to distribute to resistances.*

*I'm vaguely envisioning a system where taking resistances costs points, while adding weaknesses can give back points.

I haven't read whats been said on tvtropes, gonna look there now.


Edit: By 'Digital Devil', I think he means the Avatar Tuners, perhaps simply not making the connection right away. After all, their game was Digital Devil Saga, right?

The difference I'm trying to make is that Devil Children are restricted to one demon, their ally, to enhance and the enhancements are stick until different fusions. Devil Generals can enhance any demon that comes in their roster and the enhancements are mutable. A Devil Child's ally is also going to last the character, from 1 to 30. Demons for the General come and go.

Really? I'm envisioning them as wildly differently (though it's in my head and I am creating it, so that a pretty big given). Still, this isn't the first time someone brought it up, as there was a project with the same concern. Neccy on the TV Tropes board suggested a time limit, but I'm still kinda iffy about it. I went into the thinking that they were simply a difference of Summoner vs. Enhancer, Demon Sponsored vs. Avatar Tuner, in this case. The Magatama is simply an entire equipment set with a few skills attached; selectable any time out of battle but fixed. The Avatar Tuners give themselves an entire make over, enhancing their stats, taking on natural attacks and armor and having an ever selectable skill set as they go on from their Mantra. Maybe thats still not enough, and if it isn't, I'll try to go for a little more. And hey, if that doesn't tickle 'ya, I'm sure I can work without one.

This actually one of the aspects I haven't thought out, and I'm kicking myself for it now. I want to say P3 and Raidou and all the other stuff, but maybe I'll do something different. Maybe I'll try another game for fusion. Like you said, Inheritance can cause problems (or at least I think you did...)

I was actually thinking about a suggestion that the TV Tropes forum gave me: that demons are given less stats to work with than regular characters. What do you guys think?

Abillities come every 5 levels. It's another FFd6 thing, but I actually think it's a fantastic amount of time for a player to decide what they want to do with their character and enough time to allow for a character to develop.

That sounds pretty sweet! I'll definitely write it down somewhere!

Xegek
2010-12-05, 06:32 PM
Well, if you're going to make Devil Children stuck with their companion demon, what differentiates them from Persona Users?

Karma Guard
2010-12-05, 06:36 PM
Well, if you're going to make Devil Children stuck with their companion demon, what differentiates them from Persona Users?

I think the only difference would be fluff and the chance of upgrading it when you get over your issues.

And possibly how you call them into use.

Vauron
2010-12-05, 06:37 PM
Really? I'm envisioning them as wildly differently (though it's in my head and I am creating it, so that a pretty big given). Still, this isn't the first time someone brought it up, as there was a project with the same concern. Neccy on the TV Tropes board suggested a time limit, but I'm still kinda iffy about it. I went into the thinking that they were simply a difference of Summoner vs. Enhancer, Demon Sponsored vs. Avatar Tuner, in this case. The Magatama is simply an entire equipment set with a few skills attached; selectable any time out of battle but fixed. The Avatar Tuners give themselves an entire make over, enhancing their stats, taking on natural attacks and armor and having an ever selectable skill set as they go on from their Mantra. Maybe thats still not enough, and if it isn't, I'll try to go for a little more. And hey, if that doesn't tickle 'ya, I'm sure I can work without one.

Part of my problem with their similarity was having a brain fart and forgetting that the demifiend would be a summoner . I'm not sure how good an idea throwing a time limit on Avatar Tuner's would be. Much of my problem with that is how getting put into human form was essentially a punishment, combat wise, as you lost the effects of all your skills.



I was actually thinking about a suggestion that the TV Tropes forum gave me: that demons are given less stats to work with than regular characters. What do you guys think?

Great minds think alike than, while I didn't state it as explicitly as I should have, that was what I was suggesting with my vague suggestion on demon creation. A lower number than the 20 I suggested may be warranted, but those were off the cuff numbers anyway.

Something to keep in mind: Summoners will have more actions than Enhancers will. For every turn a Persona User has, a Demon Controller will effectively have three. As such, if an Enhancer's damage is on par with a demon of the same level, than they might have trouble competing.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 06:38 PM
Well, if you're going to make Devil Children stuck with their companion demon, what differentiates them from Persona Users?

A demon companion is a separate entity, while a persona counts as the same character as the user.

Xegek
2010-12-05, 06:41 PM
In which case, why would you want to play as a Persona User since getting in two actions is better than one?

Vauron
2010-12-05, 07:01 PM
In which case, why would you want to play as a Persona User since getting in two actions is better than one?

That is a good chunk of the reason that I suggested that Enhancers be more potent than demons. A Demon Controller can essentially cast a buff spell, a healing spell, and attack during their team's turn, while a Persona User has to pick one. Admittedly, with Persona User I am worried about elemental immunities, especially when they paired with physical immunity. In P4 it was only a minor nuisance if you ran into a phys and wind immune monster with Yosuke in your party, but I can't help but think it'd be more of an issue in a role playing game.

Also, I'm kinda confused with the initiative system, considering the basis in the Press Turn system, I think how it works is that your initiative roll decides who goes first on your team.

In any case, the first paragraph of the combat post ends in an unfinished sentence:
"One can gain as many half-turns as they want, but can only accrue one" doesn't make much sense to my mind.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 07:13 PM
Part of my problem with their similarity was having a brain fart and forgetting that the demifiend would be a summoner . I'm not sure how good an idea throwing a time limit on Avatar Tuner's would be. Much of my problem with that is how getting put into human form was essentially a punishment, combat wise, as you lost the effects of all your skills.

Hey, it happens. :smalltongue: And I'm still thinking it over. Essentially it should having equipment and not. Perhaps not let them use items, even though the games let them? I'm not quite sure. Sounds like it might be bad. :smallfrown:


Great minds think alike than, while I didn't state it as explicitly as I should have, that was what I was suggesting with my vague suggestion on demon creation. A lower number than the 20 I suggested may be warranted, but those were off the cuff numbers anyway.

Fantastico! And is that what a cuff number is?


Something to keep in mind: Summoners will have more actions than Enhancers will. For every turn a Persona User has, a Demon Controller will effectively have three. As such, if an Enhancer's damage is on par with a demon of the same level, than they might have trouble competing.

Good point. I wonder if I should do something different. Turns are a HUGE currency, after all. Maybe make it that so only one character gains an action, including summons. That makes the strategy between Summoners vs. Enhancers into Variety vs. Power. This would also allows for us to make for enemy demons full strength, make the demon class more viable and cut down on battle time. Hmm. Something to think about.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 07:23 PM
That is a good chunk of the reason that I suggested that Enhancers be more potent than demons. A Demon Controller can essentially cast a buff spell, a healing spell, and attack during their team's turn, while a Persona User has to pick one. Admittedly, with Persona User I am worried about elemental immunities, especially when they paired with physical immunity. In P4 it was only a minor nuisance if you ran into a phys and wind immune monster with Yosuke in your party, but I can't help but think it'd be more of an issue in a role playing game.

See above for a possible solution. If that doesn't take, less potent demons potency still makes sense.


Also, I'm kinda confused with the initiative system, considering the basis in the Press Turn system, I think how it works is that your initiative roll decides who goes first on your team.

In DDS and Nocturne, totally. But in the new Persona game, it's different and I was going by them when creating this. However, Persona isn't everything, so I'm wondering if that should just change. Maybe highest Initiative check goes first for the team if so and then in team?


In any case, the first paragraph of the combat post ends in an unfinished sentence:
"One can gain as many half-turns as they want, but can only accrue one" doesn't make much sense to my mind.

Oh wow, I didn't notice that. HUGE thing to leave out. You can only accrue a half-turn from every scored weakness or critical, but only for one enemy, meaning you can't get extra turns from the same enemy. Gonna have to edit that.

Vauron
2010-12-05, 07:27 PM
Fantastico! And is that what a cuff number is?


No, I was unsure that the difference between 24 and 20 was large enough, and still am. However, if you go with the suggestion on tvtropes to give players 30 points to start with, than that would likely be plenty large enough for first level, if not too far depending on if you want a single level 1 monster to be a threat to a level 1 PC.

Incidentally, when/if you make a generic boss template, I suggest an increase in press turns from the base creature to be one of the benefits. I can't remember the last boss I saw with only 1 press turn.

Xegek
2010-12-05, 07:45 PM
I personally think with the exception of Devil Children and Persona Users, you shouldn't be able to customize your demons' starting stats. Instead, we could just set up a bestiary of sorts with every demon in it. I think that would make things simpler, and it is more how the games are set up

Otogi
2010-12-05, 07:53 PM
No, I was unsure that the difference between 24 and 20 was large enough, and still am. However, if you go with the suggestion on tvtropes to give players 30 points to start with, than that would likely be plenty large enough for first level, if not too far depending on if you want a single level 1 monster to be a threat to a level 1 PC.

Incidentally, when/if you make a generic boss template, I suggest an increase in press turns from the base creature to be one of the benefits. I can't remember the last boss I saw with only 1 press turn.

Yeah, maybe the players should be 30 and the demons 24. Much bigger difference if we're using that.

Shadow Yosuke? :smalltongue: Otherwise, yeah, totally.


I personally think with the exception of Devil Children and Persona Users, you shouldn't be able to customize your demons' starting stats. Instead, we could just set up a bestiary of sorts with every demon in it. I think that would make things simpler, and it is more how the games are set up

I still think Avatar Tuners should be the same, but yeah, that's how it was going. You've got to remember the idea is also for creating demons for a DM/GM/Ref/Storyteller's benefit.

Vauron
2010-12-05, 08:36 PM
Good point. I wonder if I should do something different. Turns are a HUGE currency, after all. Maybe make it that so only one character gains an action, including summons. That makes the strategy between Summoners vs. Enhancers into Variety vs. Power. This would also allows for us to make for enemy demons full strength, make the demon class more viable and cut down on battle time. Hmm. Something to think about.

Had another thought, with that change, what would be different between a Wild Card, and, say, a Demon General? Both could switch the entity they are calling apon to give them a new skill set.

For the sake of some illusion of balance, I was originally thinking along the lines of "Persona Users are the best at whatever they do at their level", while Wild Cards lack some of the raw power, they make up for it by being able to grab the right tool for the right time.

When I first looked at the classes, what I thought would be that the summoners would use the quality of quantity to make up the difference.


I personally think with the exception of Devil Children and Persona Users, you shouldn't be able to customize your demons' starting stats. Instead, we could just set up a bestiary of sorts with every demon in it. I think that would make things simpler, and it is more how the games are set up

My suggestion on the creation of guidelines for demon creation were merely intended for helping to create a relatively similar amount of power at a given level, not as a player tool. My suggestion concerning demon and persona customization is along the lines of Persona 2. In P2, if you get a nekomata from Igor once, it'll have the exact same stats and skills each time you summon it. However, it was still possible to customize them by using an item while you made the persona. Lets say that nekomata only has physical and mind skills, and we want it to be able to heal, to do so we give Igor a Dia card when the persona is being made, and there you go, you know have a nekomata capable of healing.

Gonna work on a vague outline of a possible Persona User chassis, I have a few vague ideas I want to write down before going into more detail first.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 09:05 PM
Had another thought, with that change, what would be different between a Wild Card, and, say, a Demon General? Both could switch the entity they are calling apon to give them a new skill set.

For the sake of some illusion of balance, I was originally thinking along the lines of "Persona Users are the best at whatever they do at their level", while Wild Cards lack some of the raw power, they make up for it by being able to grab the right tool for the right time.

When I first looked at the classes, what I thought would be that the summoners would use the quality of quantity to make up the difference.

Demon Generals only rarely give skills. They work more on making aspects of the demon's ability. They can also give themselves some of the same bonuses. Wild Card's switch personae when they need.

I wanted to give Persona Users abilities like Persona 4's cast (Galactic Punt!), but I'm not sure with the other Persona games cast. Heck, Persona User's personae are always advancing, so why not a little boost?

Same here, but the value of turn has pretty high value in an economy of role-play terms, especially in this region it seems. We're in a recession, it happens.


My suggestion on the creation of guidelines for demon creation were merely intended for helping to create a relatively similar amount of power at a given level, not as a player tool. My suggestion concerning demon and persona customization is along the lines of Persona 2. In P2, if you get a nekomata from Igor once, it'll have the exact same stats and skills each time you summon it. However, it was still possible to customize them by using an item while you made the persona. Lets say that nekomata only has physical and mind skills, and we want it to be able to heal, to do so we give Igor a Dia card when the persona is being made, and there you go, you know have a nekomata capable of healing.

Gonna work on a vague outline of a possible Persona User chassis, I have a few vague ideas I want to write down before going into more detail first.

Pretty interesting idea, especially considering I took the rank system from P2 (we seem to getting a lot from there, aren't we?). I wonder how the card idea is going to work in the game. I think you can use swords and other stuff, but I don't remember.

Vauron
2010-12-05, 09:44 PM
Demon Generals only rarely give skills. They work more on making aspects of the demon's ability. They can also give themselves some of the same bonuses. Wild Card's switch personae when they need.

I seem to have expressed myself poorly. Essentially, what I was saying was that both would be able to have different sets of skills depending on the situation by changing their demon/persona. Wild Cards would have the edge in that they could switch faster, but that would be basicly it.


I wanted to give Persona Users abilities like Persona 4's cast (Galactic Punt!), but I'm not sure with the other Persona games cast. Heck, Persona User's personae are always advancing, so why not a little boost?


Pretty interesting idea, especially considering I took the rank system from P2 (we seem to getting a lot from there, aren't we?). I wonder how the card idea is going to work in the game. I think you can use swords and other stuff, but I don't remember.

Swords and stuff? I think you are referring to items to unlock personae. I draw on P2 for Wild Cards because they don't do everything in that game, unlike Minato, and to a lesser extent Souji. Also I never did play P1 so it'd be hard for me to draw on it.

As to how 'cards' would work, I was thinking that they might be additional boss drop if you have a Wild Card in your party. Lets say a Jack Frost was a boss and was summarily defeated by the party, the Wild Card would be able to bind part of its essence to an object and could use that essence in persona forging.

On an unrelated note, why are there nine skill tiers? I can see 4, maybe five, but nine? Could you explain your reasoning? My thoughts, tier wise, would look something like
Bufu / Mabufu Bufula / Mabufula Bufudyne / Mabufudyne Cocytus


Similarly, should I ignore things like non-combat skill points* or weapon proficiencies while I'm messing with my Persona User ideas?

* I'm referring to points used for things like Lore or Systems, to use FFd6 terms.



Edit: It just occured to me that the likes of Galactic Punt and those other, lesser, procced by knockdown moves would really fit better as abilities anyone could take. Thoughts on that?

Here is a quick interpetation of Galactic Punt.
Galatic Punt!: Should one of your allies knock down a non-boss/non-miniboss opponent, roll to attack. Should you crit, the opponent is automaticly removed from the battle as your lethal foots makes the target blast off like Team Rocket. Experience is still granted for the target, but it will not drop any items.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 10:30 PM
I seem to have expressed myself poorly. Essentially, what I was saying was that both would be able to have different sets of skills depending on the situation by changing their demon/persona. Wild Cards would have the edge in that they could switch faster, but that would be basicly it.

Actually, it's not faster for Wild Cards, it's MUCH faster. For Demon General, you have to summon a demon (1 turn) and then enhance them (free, but still, not on the same turn summoned). Wild Cards just get a free switch. In and out, like a free refill.


Swords and stuff? I think you are referring to items to unlock personae. I draw on P2 for Wild Cards because they don't do everything in that game, unlike Minato, and to a lesser extent Souji. Also I never did play P1 so it'd be hard for me to draw on it.

Fuzzy memory :smallredface: And point taken (they really do love you in the latter games, don't they?)


As to how 'cards' would work, I was thinking that they might be additional boss drop if you have a Wild Card in your party. Lets say a Jack Frost was a boss and was summarily defeated by the party, the Wild Card would be able to bind part of its essence to an object and could use that essence in persona forging.

That can work, and I get what everyone else can get, but what can folks like an Avatar Tuner and Persona User get?


On an unrelated note, why are there nine skill tiers? I can see 4, maybe five, but nine? Could you explain your reasoning? My thoughts, tier wise, would look something like
Bufu / Mabufu Bufula / Mabufula Bufudyne / Mabufudyne Cocytus


The tiers aren't actual too linear. To be honest, this something I saw in a guide and rather liked how it adapted to the 30 level. In fact, the levels for the "named element" skills (Agi, Bufu, Hama, etc.) end at around 6th level. I can post what I've got here, if you want.


Similarly, should I ignore things like non-combat skill points* or weapon proficiencies while I'm messing with my Persona User ideas?

* I'm referring to points used for things like Lore or Systems, to use FFd6 terms.

Actually, I have an idea that everyone gets a 2 proficiencies, 1 melee and 1 ranged, with the weapons being general like Light Melee or Heavy Thrown or the like. But hey, feel free to just skirt right past them!


B]Edit:[/B] It just occured to me that the likes of Galactic Punt and those other, lesser, procced by knockdown moves would really fit better as abilities anyone could take. Thoughts on that?

Here is a quick interpetation of Galactic Punt.
Galatic Punt!: Should one of your allies knock down a non-boss/non-miniboss opponent, roll to attack. Should you crit, the opponent is automaticly removed from the battle as your lethal foots makes the target blast off like Team Rocket. Experience is still granted for the target, but it will not drop any items.

I was thinking the same thing when I posted that, and I love the way the Galactic Punt is set up (although, couldn't you punt mini-bosses, too? Or is that just a Chie thing?)

Vauron
2010-12-05, 10:46 PM
That can work, and I get what everyone else can get, but what can folks like an Avatar Tuner and Persona User get?


Not really sure there, if Avatar Tuner's mantras were based off of atma instead of levels I'd simply have bosses be big sacks of atma.
New Idea! Remember how in DDS after you defeated a bonus boss you'd get a thingie that you traded for access to a new mantra? Perhaps something along those lines could work?

As for Persona User, I can't think of anything specific that would be 'just for them'. Maybe something like a reusable item to cast a relatively low level skill of an element they can't cast? An item that helps shore up their weakness? Speaking of weakness, do you want Persona Users to be elementally aligned?



The tiers aren't actual too linear. To be honest, this something I saw in a guide and rather liked how it adapted to the 30 level. In fact, the levels for the "named element" skills (Agi, Bufu, Hama, etc.) end at around 6th level. I can post what I've got here, if you want.


That'd be useful, for wont of anything else to compare it to I was toying with roughly the same skill+tier progression as the FFd6 Black Mage.


I was thinking the same thing when I posted them, and I love the way the Galactic Punt is set up (although, couldn't you punt mini-bosses, too? Or is that just a Chie thing?)

Even if you could, a chance at an auto kill is something I'm leery of working on even minibosses. Now, if I make a miniboss and leave it not immune to mudo skills, I expect the boss to end up going down easy if the players give it a shot. However, Galactic Punt!, as written, would work too often and on too much for my tastes for it to affect anything with 'boss' in the title.

Otogi
2010-12-05, 11:20 PM
Not really sure there, if Avatar Tuner's mantras were based off of atma instead of levels I'd simply have bosses be big sacks of atma.
New Idea! Remember how in DDS after you defeated a bonus boss you'd get a thingie that you traded for access to a new mantra? Perhaps something along those lines could work?

Sounds alright, but a little powerful. I dunno, maybe it's just me.


As for Persona User, I can't think of anything specific that would be 'just for them'. Maybe something like a reusable item to cast a relatively low level skill of an element they can't cast? An item that helps shore up their weakness? Speaking of weakness, do you want Persona Users to be elementally aligned?


I was thinking about the Persona gaining a new sort of skill or something, but this sounds alright.



Even if you could, a chance at an auto kill is something I'm leery of working on even minibosses. Now, if I make a miniboss and leave it not immune to mudo skills, I expect the boss to end up going down easy if the players give it a shot. However, Galactic Punt!, as written, would work too often and on too much for my tastes for it to affect anything with 'boss' in the title.

Yeah, guess that would suck, so non-mini-boss Galactic Punt it stays.

Vauron
2010-12-06, 10:37 AM
Frankly, when I first made the suggestion of skill cards as drops just for Wild Cards, I didn't have in mind each class having their own drops. It just seemed a decent idea of a way to let Wild Cards have a limited ability to customize their personae. As far as drops are concerned, Avatar Tuners and Demon Sponsored are the most troublesome, as the only thing Avatar Tuners care about are stats and mantras, while Demon Sponsored only need magatama.

My suggestion for a possible special reward for Avatar Tuners was not intended to be 'You killed a boss! Now you can use its skills'. What I intended was: 'You killed a boss, from now on when you level up you can choose to learn a mantra that contains the skills (or just some of the skills) the boss had'

Here is a rough idea of the 'Focal Skill', of the Persona User Class. I'm just using 'Focal Skill' to refer to the core ability of the class at the moment. In the Persona User's current form it doesn't work with mudo or hama skills, as I'm not sure how to balance them against more basic elements.

Focal Skill: Elemental Affinity
Select one magic element.* At level one you Know the basic spell of that element** Have a resistance to that element Gain a weakness to a magic element of your choice
As you level up, you automatically gain the other spells in that family (agi, maragi, agidyne, etc) as stated on the given table.*** At level 10 you gain the Boost skill associated with your chosen element. At level 20 you gain the Amp skill associated with your chosen element.

*(fire, ice, lightning, earth, wind)
**(agi, bufu, zio, tera, garu respectively)
***Table goes here

Persona Users would learn more spells than just the ones given in Elemental Affinity, but those would be chosen by the player and detailed in another ability.

Ability ideas:
Possible Avatar Tuner and Persona User Ability: Elemental Shield
When using the defend action, you manage to focus your element in such a way that you protect yourself from that which you are weak against. You lose any weakness you possess so long as you are defending.
(This could probably go to any class that automatically gives the character weaknesses, which is why I suggested it as a possible Avatar Tuner ability)
Possible Avatar Tuner Ability: Iron Stomach
You gain an immunity to the status effect Stomach ache.
(This assumes that that status effect is present. A prerequisite character level may be desired for this.)
Possible General Ability: Potent Healing
Any spell you cast that heals HP heals an additional 20%.
(The numbers here can be messed around if need be, I just thought a healing equivalent to the Boost and Amp skills might be a good idea.)
Possible General Ability: Vicious Maladies
Your attempts to afflict Ailments are more likely to work.

SITB
2010-12-06, 10:47 AM
I'm not sure why you need both Persona users and Wild cards, the latter are the same as the former but with divine powers backing them up.

Edge
2010-12-06, 11:05 AM
Divine backing that allows them to function notably differently. A Wild Card's Personae don't automatically level with them - they're harder to level over time, whilst a normal Persona user has their Persona level up fairly easily. Of course, they don't have a Wild Card's flexibility.

Otogi
2010-12-07, 11:52 AM
Frankly, when I first made the suggestion of skill cards as drops just for Wild Cards, I didn't have in mind each class having their own drops. It just seemed a decent idea of a way to let Wild Cards have a limited ability to customize their personae. As far as drops are concerned, Avatar Tuners and Demon Sponsored are the most troublesome, as the only thing Avatar Tuners care about are stats and mantras, while Demon Sponsored only need magatama.

My suggestion for a possible special reward for Avatar Tuners was not intended to be 'You killed a boss! Now you can use its skills'. What I intended was: 'You killed a boss, from now on when you level up you can choose to learn a mantra that contains the skills (or just some of the skills) the boss had'

Sounds like DDS, and that's pretty boss (:smalltongue:). But I had an idea for that, too. What if Mantras and Magatama had something called "Boss Skills", where whenever you defeated a boss (as a group or alone, whatev'), you can unlock a skill listed in the Mantra/Magatama. It could be a skill the boss actually has, or just a reward for defeating them, not sure how it would go. Could make a similar ability for Persona Users, or maybe not.


Here is a rough idea of the 'Focal Skill', of the Persona User Class. I'm just using 'Focal Skill' to refer to the core ability of the class at the moment. In the Persona User's current form it doesn't work with mudo or hama skills, as I'm not sure how to balance them against more basic elements.

Focal Skill: Elemental Affinity
Select one magic element.* At level one you Know the basic spell of that element** Have a resistance to that element Gain a weakness to a magic element of your choice
As you level up, you automatically gain the other spells in that family (agi, maragi, agidyne, etc) as stated on the given table.*** At level 10 you gain the Boost skill associated with your chosen element. At level 20 you gain the Amp skill associated with your chosen element.

*(fire, ice, lightning, earth, wind)
**(agi, bufu, zio, tera, garu respectively)
***Table goes here

Persona Users would learn more spells than just the ones given in Elemental Affinity, but those would be chosen by the player and detailed in another ability.

:smallconfused:

:smallmad:

:smallfurious:

I like it! :smallbiggrin: But do the boost and amp skills stay permanent? And I'll try to think up ways to get the mudo and hama line on that list!



Possible Avatar Tuner and Persona User Ability: Elemental Shield
When using the defend action, you manage to focus your element in such a way that you protect yourself from that which you are weak against. You lose any weakness you possess so long as you are defending.
(This could probably go to any class that automatically gives the character weaknesses, which is why I suggested it as a possible Avatar Tuner ability)

Lovin' it!


Possible Avatar Tuner Ability: Iron Stomach
You gain an immunity to the status effect Stomach ache.
(This assumes that that status effect is present. A prerequisite character level may be desired for this.)

Probably not, but if balancing gets difficult and we do, this is going up.


Possible General Ability: Potent Healing
Any spell you cast that heals HP heals an additional 20%.
(The numbers here can be messed around if need be, I just thought a healing equivalent to the Boost and Amp skills might be a good idea.)

Okay, but why not just make a Recovery Boost and Amp?


Possible General Ability: Vicious Maladies
Your attempts to afflict Ailments are more likely to work.

Same here, but with Ailments and junk.

Otogi
2010-12-08, 06:15 PM
I hate having to bump with posting anything meaningful, so here's the list of skills I forgot to include!

Rank 1

Agi
Bufu
Zio
Garu
Dia
Patra
Mutudi
Tarunda
Rakunda
Sukunda
Tarujaka
Rakukaja
Sukukaja
Enervation
Soul Break
Balzac
Pulinpa
Tentarafoo
Poisma
Makajam
Evil Touch
Fire Boost
Ice Boost
Elec Boost
Wind Boost

Rank 2

Maragi
Mabufu
Mazio
Magaru
Life Drain
Spirit Drain
Hama
Mudo
Posumundi
Nervundi
Energy Shower
Dodge Physical
Dodge Fire
Dodge Ice
Dodge Elec
Dodge Wind
Resist Enervate
Resist Exhaust
Resist Rage
Resist Confuse
Resist Poison
Resist Mute
Resist Fear
Alertness
Growth 1

Rank 3

Agilao
Bufula
Zionga
Garula
Megido
Mahama
Mamudo
Diarama
Media
Me Patra
Trafuri
Fire Break
Ice Break
Elec Break
Wind Break
Red Wall
White Wall
Blue Wall
Green Wall
Dekunda
Dekaja
Old One
Anima Freeze
Valiant Dance
Poison Mist
Foolish Whisper
Evil Smile
Counter
Auto-Tarukaja
Auto-Raukaja
Auto-Sukukaja
Regenerate 1
Invigorate 1

Rank 4

Maragion
Mabufula
Mazionga
Magaula
Amrita
Revolution
Matarunda
Marakunda
Msukunda
Matarukaja
Marakukaja
Masukukaja
Enervate Boost
Exhaust Boost
Rage Boost
Confuse Boost
Poison Boost
Silence Boost
Counter Strike
Evade Physical
Evade Fire
Evade Ice
Evade Elec
Evade Wind
Survive Light
Survive Dark
Null Enervate
Null Exhaust
Null Rage
Null Confuse
Null Poison
Null Mute
Null Fear
Growth 2

Rank 5

Agidyne
Bufudyne
Ziodyne
Garudyne
Hamaon
Mudoon
Diarahan
Mediarama
Samarecarm
Tetraja
Fire Amp
Ice Amp
Elec Amp
Wind Amp
Hama Boost
Mudo Boost
High Counter
Endure Light
Endure Dark
Resist Light
Resist Dark
Endure
Ali Dance
Firm Stance
Regenerate 2
Invigorate 2
Cool Breeze
Rank 6

Maragidyne
Mabufudyne
Maziodyne
Magarudyne
Megidola
Mahamaon
Mamudoon
Power Charge
Mind Charge
Ghastly Wail
Ailment Boost
Null Physical
Null Fire
Null Ice
Null Elec
Null Wind
Null Light
Null Dark
Auto-Mataru
Auto-Maruku
Auto-Masuku
Growth 3
Regenerate 3
Invigorate 3

Rank 7

Mediarahan
Tetrakarn
Makarakarn
Tetra Break
Makara Break
Repel Physical
Repel Fire
Repel Ice
Repel Elec
Repel Wind
Repel Light
Repel Dark
Angel Grace
Insta-Heal
Enduring Soul

Rank 8

Megidolaon
Salvation
Divine Grace
Unshaken Will
Arms Master
Spell Master

Rank 9

Heat Riser
Debilitate
Jihad
Victory Cry

Xegek
2010-12-08, 06:41 PM
>mfw no Maralagidyne spell

Vauron
2010-12-08, 10:01 PM
Sounds like DDS, and that's pretty boss (:smalltongue:). But I had an idea for that, too. What if Mantras and Magatama had something called "Boss Skills", where whenever you defeated a boss (as a group or alone, whatev'), you can unlock a skill listed in the Mantra/Magatama. It could be a skill the boss actually has, or just a reward for defeating them, not sure how it would go. Could make a similar ability for Persona Users, or maybe not.

You mean something like the mutation skills of P2? I like the idea.

Perhaps light or darkness focused Persona Users can have an additonal, secondary focus? Not all the skills of the focus would be granted for free perhaps, but still enough that they can do something other than auto attack or throw items when a boss comes. Although it wouldn't surprise me if the 'supplemental' element is used more often by a player. (When all was said and down, I probably had Naoto use almighty skills more than dark+light together.)

The problem with Persona User is that they have the one persona, and it merely gets better at what it does as it levels up. Getting skills from killing a boss just seems odd for Persona Users to my mind. Getting skills or resistances or anything like that feels more like something that'd be tied to character development, which I have no clue how to adjudicate.

Incidentally, how fast do you want players to learn skills? Or at least Persona Users, as it'd make sense for there to be different skill progressions.



I like it! :smallbiggrin: But do the boost and amp skills stay permanent? And I'll try to think up ways to get the mudo and hama line on that list!

I'm imagining the boost and amp skills as abilities, or at least free skills that don't count against skills known in the case of the Persona User. Persona Users have enough trouble being specialized, so something that helps them reign in their focus while freeing up more slots for additional spells is a decent boon in my mind. Also, considering your tier list I over valued when boost and amp skills come on line, as I feel that Persona Users should have early access to boost and amp skills, in addition to a lack of opportunity cost.




Okay, but why not just make a Recovery Boost and Amp?
Same here, but with Ailments and junk.

In the case of Potent Healing, that hadn't occurred to me. Additionally, after the -rahan level is reached, it'd be worthless due to healing the targets to 100% automatically. Maybe it could add low odds to heal an ailment to a hp healing spell? Or merely decrease mp costs of healing/ailment removal spells? Just random thoughts.

As to Vicious Maladies? Well, I suppose something like 'Ailment Boost' and 'Ailment Amp' could work. Again, that didn't occur to me. Perhaps the boost and amp skills could increase the odds of success, while Vicious Maladies could make them more potent? Things like poison doing more damage or silence lasting longer?


Now, on another note, I think it might help to think about some things as far as stats go. You stated that you want skills/persona/demons to decide someone's 'role' in a party, right? How do you want HP and MP decided? Do all the classes use the same formula, or would some classes have higher 'base' values for them? Perhaps something in the vein of (level*10+Vit*X) might work? Do demons use the same formulas?

Similarly, do you have any idea of how much HP or MP you think would be appropriate to start with? I'm asking these questions to try to get you thinking about actual, solid numbers, which would help me try to make more specific suggestions. You don't need to answer the question right away, its just something to think about.

Also, I think it might help to focus on just two classes at first, one of the Summoners and one of the Enhancers. With two classes done that'd give points of reference to allow easier work on the rest.

Otogi
2010-12-09, 11:57 AM
You mean something like the mutation skills of P2? I like the idea.

I was actually thinking about putting in mutations, too, but sure!


Perhaps light or darkness focused Persona Users can have an additonal, secondary focus? Not all the skills of the focus would be granted for free perhaps, but still enough that they can do something other than auto attack or throw items when a boss comes. Although it wouldn't surprise me if the 'supplemental' element is used more often by a player. (When all was said and down, I probably had Naoto use almighty skills more than dark+light together.)


Actually, what was Naoto's focus? I knew she was good at Light, Dark and Almighty, but I never got the actual focus. Anyway, I could just put in a light and dark skill at 1st tier, making Hama and Mudo a free skill at tier 2.


The problem with Persona User is that they have the one persona, and it merely gets better at what it does as it levels up. Getting skills from killing a boss just seems odd for Persona Users to my mind. Getting skills or resistances or anything like that feels more like something that'd be tied to character development, which I have no clue how to adjudicate.

Incidentally, how fast do you want players to learn skills? Or at least Persona Users, as it'd make sense for there to be different skill progressions.

Point taken, and I'm not quite sure. I was thinking a skill every level for Persona Users at least. Demons and Personae get them every 2 ranks, I believe.


I'm imagining the boost and amp skills as abilities, or at least free skills that don't count against skills known in the case of the Persona User. Persona Users have enough trouble being specialized, so something that helps them reign in their focus while freeing up more slots for additional spells is a decent boon in my mind. Also, considering your tier list I over valued when boost and amp skills come on line, as I feel that Persona Users should have early access to boost and amp skills, in addition to a lack of opportunity cost.

Sounds good to me, IMAGINE already does the same thing anyway. BTW, demons getting abilities, yay or nay?


In the case of Potent Healing, that hadn't occurred to me. Additionally, after the -rahan level is reached, it'd be worthless due to healing the targets to 100% automatically. Maybe it could add low odds to heal an ailment to a hp healing spell? Or merely decrease mp costs of healing/ailment removal spells? Just random thoughts.

As to Vicious Maladies? Well, I suppose something like 'Ailment Boost' and 'Ailment Amp' could work. Again, that didn't occur to me. Perhaps the boost and amp skills could increase the odds of success, while Vicious Maladies could make them more potent? Things like poison doing more damage or silence lasting longer?

I could see Vicious Maladies making ailments last longer/have a better effect and Potent Healing decreasing MP. A chance of curing an ailment already falls into the Recovery category, and a decrease in MP for those are going to seem more worthwhile than a heal with a random chance (doesn't mean you can't have both, though...).


Now, on another note, I think it might help to think about some things as far as stats go. You stated that you want skills/persona/demons to decide someone's 'role' in a party, right? How do you want HP and MP decided? Do all the classes use the same formula, or would some classes have higher 'base' values for them? Perhaps something in the vein of (level*10+Vit*X) might work? Do demons use the same formulas?

I was actually thinking stats also go up there, but yeah. I wanted classes to all use the same formula, as well as demons. That formula looks pretty sounds, although I would make that 10 into 15 instead. What does the variable stand for, by the way?


Similarly, do you have any idea of how much HP or MP you think would be appropriate to start with? I'm asking these questions to try to get you thinking about actual, solid numbers, which would help me try to make more specific suggestions. You don't need to answer the question right away, its just something to think about.

Solid numbers are difficult to make without a known opposition (the normal damage from weapons and skills, that is). The HP should be enough to stand at least 8 turns worth of solid, average damage (evasion notwithstanding), while MP should be enough to use 6 skills of average MP consistently (none of this considering resting). What do you think?


Also, I think it might help to focus on just two classes at first, one of the Summoners and one of the Enhancers. With two classes done that'd give points of reference to allow easier work on the rest.

Might as well be the two mainstays, than; Demon Controller and Wild Card sound good?

Vauron
2010-12-09, 02:43 PM
Actually, what was Naoto's focus? I knew she was good at Light, Dark and Almighty, but I never got the actual focus. Anyway, I could just put in a light and dark skill at 1st tier, making Hama and Mudo a free skill at tier 2.

Basically, her focus was Dark and Light. Unlike 3 where there was one for each, she had both. Her use of almighty spells I'd consider to be along the lines of player selected skills for this system.



Sounds good to me, IMAGINE already does the same thing anyway. BTW, demons getting abilities, yay or nay?

I have mixed thoughts, on one hand saying no would simplify demon creation and make player characters more special. On the other, lack of abilities might be an issue for Summoners who focus more on their demons. Maybe non-unique demons don't have them as enemies, but if they level up they can get some? Maybe being able to pass some of them on in fusion?



I was actually thinking stats also go up there, but yeah. I wanted classes to all use the same formula, as well as demons. That formula looks pretty sounds, although I would make that 10 into 15 instead. What does the variable stand for, by the way?

I wasn't sure of what the X would be, or even how much max HP should be determined by level. I suppose now that I'm looking at what you want HP-wise in comparison to possible damage outputs, a much higher value than I originally was thinking of would be appropriate. Perhaps X could be 20? That'd make possible level 1 player HP ranges go from 35 to 135, and lets be honest dumping Vitality isn't gonna be as common as dumping Luck or Strength.

Kinda feel iffy on that now, actually. Do you want the relevant stat to be that much more important than level in determining HP and MP?



Solid numbers are difficult to make without a known opposition (the normal damage from weapons and skills, that is). The HP should be enough to stand at least 8 turns worth of solid, average damage (evasion notwithstanding), while MP should be enough to use 6 skills of average MP consistently (none of this considering resting). What do you think?

Thats fine I suppose, lets look at some numbers for level 1: The damage for an ability is (2d6+ skill power + relevant stat), so the theoretical maximum damage would be 18+skill power, with 13+skill power being the average. If we assume that defense is enough to annul the skill power, than a level one character should have HP in the neighborhood of 104.



Might as well be the two mainstays, than; Demon Controller and Wild Card sound good?

They may be more common than the Persona Users, but I don't think Wild Card is a good place to start. I say this largely due to the fact that they'd be more complicated due to the far larger number of things that'd need to be made for them. I do agree with Demon Controller, however. Just starting with a pure Summoner and a pure Enhancer in the Persona User seems like a good idea before we do any hybrids like Demon Sponsored or Devil Summoner.


Also, before I forget, do you want the skills known to be limited? If so, how many should a player have to start with, and at what rate should skills known increase? Similarly, at what rate do you want tier access to come at? Should all classes gain access to tiers at the same time?

and lets round this post out with an attempt to think of what needs to be thought up in general for a class
Incomplete list of things needed for a class:
1. rate of learning skills
2. possibly the rate at which access to higher tiers is gained?
3. possibly the rate at which more skills can be equipped?
4. class specific abilities
5. the 'focal skills' of the class (a devil summoner's Combination Skills and Demon Summoning, an Avatar Tuner's battle mode, et cetera)

Otogi
2010-12-10, 12:26 AM
Basically, her focus was Dark and Light. Unlike 3 where there was one for each, she had both. Her use of almighty spells I'd consider to be along the lines of player selected skills for this system.

Dual foci. Hm...


I have mixed thoughts, on one hand saying no would simplify demon creation and make player characters more special. On the other, lack of abilities might be an issue for Summoners who focus more on their demons. Maybe non-unique demons don't have them as enemies, but if they level up they can get some? Maybe being able to pass some of them on in fusion?

That suggestion sounds pretty good. Not sure about fusion, though; would that be like "Ability Inheritance?"


I wasn't sure of what the X would be, or even how much max HP should be determined by level. I suppose now that I'm looking at what you want HP-wise in comparison to possible damage outputs, a much higher value than I originally was thinking of would be appropriate. Perhaps X could be 20? That'd make possible level 1 player HP ranges go from 35 to 135, and lets be honest dumping Vitality isn't gonna be as common as dumping Luck or Strength.

Kinda feel iffy on that now, actually. Do you want the relevant stat to be that much more important than level in determining HP and MP?

Just a little. I want the stats to add distinction to the characters, but on the other hand, I still remember the brutal "Gain VIT rating HP per level" method in the original SMT.


Thats fine I suppose, lets look at some numbers for level 1: The damage for an ability is (2d6+ skill power + relevant stat), so the theoretical maximum damage would be 18+skill power, with 13+skill power being the average. If we assume that defense is enough to annul the skill power, than a level one character should have HP in the neighborhood of 104.

Seems a bit high, actually. I'll try to run a practice on the it with about a party of 4.


They may be more common than the Persona Users, but I don't think Wild Card is a good place to start. I say this largely due to the fact that they'd be more complicated due to the far larger number of things that'd need to be made for them. I do agree with Demon Controller, however. Just starting with a pure Summoner and a pure Enhancer in the Persona User seems like a good idea before we do any hybrids like Demon Sponsored or Devil Summoner.

Yeah, I guess it would be a little obtuse in going with the classic archtype. :smallredface: Persona User sounds better, though.


Also, before I forget, do you want the skills known to be limited? If so, how many should a player have to start with, and at what rate should skills known increase? Similarly, at what rate do you want tier access to come at? Should all classes gain access to tiers at the same time?

A player (or a demon) should start with around 2-3, increasing to a maximum of 6. Skills should be able to increase about every level or two, and characters/demons increase in skill tiers every 3 levels (Tier 2 at level 4, 3 at 7, etc.) I was thinking that everyone should gain access to the same tiers, but what do you guys think?


and lets round this post out with an attempt to think of what needs to be thought up in general for a class
Incomplete list of things needed for a class:
1. rate of learning skills
2. possibly the rate at which access to higher tiers is gained?
3. possibly the rate at which more skills can be equipped?
4. class specific abilities
5. the 'focal skills' of the class (a devil summoner's Combination Skills and Demon Summoning, an Avatar Tuner's battle mode, et cetera)

Alright, I'll get started on the Demon Controller and Persona User template early tomorrow.

BTW, I was thinking about implementing a lifepath. Lay or nay?

Vauron
2010-12-10, 06:40 PM
That suggestion sounds pretty good. Not sure about fusion, though; would that be like "Ability Inheritance?"

That was roughly what I meant, yes.


Just a little. I want the stats to add distinction to the characters, but on the other hand, I still remember the brutal "Gain VIT rating HP per level" method in the original SMT.

So you want level to be slightly less important than VIT in determining HP? Just making sure I'm reading this right. Incidentally, I don't think it'd add much if players had triple digit HP at level one.



A player (or a demon) should start with around 2-3, increasing to a maximum of 6. Skills should be able to increase about every level or two, and characters/demons increase in skill tiers every 3 levels (Tier 2 at level 4, 3 at 7, etc.) I was thinking that everyone should gain access to the same tiers, but what do you guys think?

What I think is that if six is the max number of skills known, then perhaps passive skills should either be abilities, or have slots devoted to them. Thats mostly a gut reaction, I don't have any specific issues with that currently.

The tiers, on the other hand, still kinda bug me. Partly, its due to how few skills there are of the last tiers, but I suppose that can be fixed later.



BTW, I was thinking about implementing a lifepath. Lay or nay?
What is a lifepath? I'm not familiar with whatever game it came from.

Otogi
2010-12-10, 07:27 PM
So you want level to be slightly less important than VIT in determining HP? Just making sure I'm reading this right. Incidentally, I don't think it'd add much if players had triple digit HP at level one.

I'm not absolutely set on it, but it's something that seems fixable if it doesn't work out. And I guess it can work.


What I think is that if six is the max number of skills known, then perhaps passive skills should either be abilities, or have slots devoted to them. Thats mostly a gut reaction, I don't have any specific issues with that currently.

I'd say slots make the most sense if you still feel uneasy about it, since Auto-Sukukaja and the like might be a little much for a permanent ability.


The tiers, on the other hand, still kinda bug me. Partly, its due to how few skills there are of the last tiers, but I suppose that can be fixed later.

Mixing up and reinvention is deffinitely needed for the latter tiers of that list.


What is a lifepath? I'm not familiar with whatever game it came from.

A lifepath is basically a background generator for a character. Sometimes they exist only for fluff, but at other times they do things like give bonuses to stats, skills, advantages, money etc. They were either random, or picked out and chosen as events in a characters life. You can find some good examples in Cyberpunk 2020, the Central Casting Books, Traveler, Burning Wheel and some other systems. It's pretty non-essential to the game, but its something I've always been fond of. Here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Character_Lifepath_(3.5e_Variant_Rule)) a quick example of a D&D version that's alright, but not a great example.

Milo v3
2010-12-15, 01:40 AM
Awesome!:biggrin:
I cann't wait to try out this system. "Orpheus" here I come. Hope my group will try it. I'm picturing it now myg group a "Persona 3" style game of 3.5.

Vauron
2010-12-15, 06:54 PM
That could take awhile, I expect that Wild Card will be one of the tougher classes to work out, right up there with Demon Sponsored. That said, if you don't mind your party lacking a 'he only does everything' person, Persona Users should work, and will likely be simpler to design in the first place.


On another note Otogi, you have mentioned once or twice about a demon class, or at least you have on tvtropes. Why bother since that is exactly what Demon Sponsored would be as far as both mechanics and fluff are concerned.

Also, is there anything I can do at the moment to help?

Otogi
2010-12-15, 08:09 PM
The demon class is just an idea I like to kick around, trying to emulate a standard Shin Megami Tensei (Classic) party and having it fit into a story the games would normally have. Its just an idea I like, and even though it might not even see structure as a template, I still like to let it slip by every now and again. Like you said, though, Demon Sponsored would pretty much take it over (except they probably wouldn't be summoners, and then there's Avatar Tuners for that).

Well, since we're still in broad strokes, we could always brainstorm what technical skills would fit the setting and throw around some ideas for mechanics (as well as a new name). We could also try to figure out advanced classes and some new abilities, if you're interested.

Vauron
2010-12-16, 04:22 AM
Well, as far as technical skills go, I'm inclined to gank a good chunk of them from FF2d6. However, thats mostly laziness speaking.

Abilities? Well, first, how potent do you want abilities to be in comparison to passive and active skills? Also, could we use something besides 'skills' to either refer to non-combat stuff or the combat options? It just kinda feels wrong and confusing to be using 'skill' in both contexts.

Random thought for Wild Card: Perhaps we should go for a modified version of the P2 way of getting new persona. My (vague) idea is that you negotiate with a demon, and if you succeed you can ask for a card, which you can later turn in for a persona of the arcana of the demon you get it from. Only one card would be used per persona, as farming two hundred Star cards to call upon Lucifer would be a terrible grind. Level, and possibly requiring an item to unlock certain persona would be how persona access is restricted. I like the idea in part because it gives a reason why Wild Cards should actually care about Negotiation other than trying to give boosts to an ally's attempt. Your thoughts?

Random possible abilities, all names should be considered placeholders and any mechanics should be considered to be nothing more than a rough draft:

Deft Application of Force: Your stat STR/DEX/INT/MAG/AGI/ or LUC is X higher for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites to learn skills.
(depending on the numbers, I could see up to 7 versions of that ability. There could be one potent one for each statistic, and one that weakly works for all of them.)

Never Say Die: Should the PC be reduced below 1 HP or affected by an instant death skill that does not deal damage, the player can roll 2d6. If a 12 is rolled, the PC survives with 1 HP.
(I vaguely remember a passive skill in this vein, but, eh, why not. Perhaps more outcomes of the dice-roll could be allowed to work, but I'm trying to be conservative.)

Willing Shield: some way for PCs to take hits for each other, imagine Junpei throwing Mitsuru out of the way of an agidyne. This would also be a nice ability for a Summoner's demon to have, and I expect would be one that a summoner would try to propagate through their demons if abilities could be inherited.

Voracity: When the Avatar Tuner consumes an entity, they are considered to have eaten more than they actually have. (if each entity gives the same amount, than it'd be like eating 2 dudes, or if levels are involved, than the target is considered to have a higher level)
This is an Avatar Tuner specific ability, and it assumes that they have to deal with the need to feed to stay sane. Also maybe Avatar Tuners can eat enemies that weren't consumed during the fight after the battle to get a small amount of healing and help keep hunger in check.

Unthreatening: Generally speaking enemy combatants will attack another target over you, although this is no protection from multitarget skills.
(what exactly this might mean mechanically, I'm not sure. This is more intended for Summoners really, and it assumes that the demons you have bent to your will can be targeted by the enemy.)

No Sacrifice, No Victory: some way to increase damage of physical skills by paying more life

Ready!: A boost to initiative

Scars: Somehow you have been marked with a scar that is not easilly concealable which aids you in intimidating others. The bonus, or penalty, of taking a threatening stance in negotiations increases by 1. (maybe by 2? generally trying to go for too weak over too strong)

Innocent: NEG boost with certain personalities and/or species.
(I suppose there could be a few of these, kinda iffy on the general idea of it though, so I'm just tossing it out into the aether.)

Black Blade: You have a strange weapon that you dare not trust that continues to grow more powerful.
(at this point I'm gonna admit that I've started looking at song titles in my library for ideas, in case it wasn't obvious)

Fade Away: more likely to succeed when running away

Fury of the Storm: ability to voluntarilly induce Rage on yourself, and/or possibly causing you to deal more damage or hit more often in Rage

Cry of the Brave: With a mighty shout/witty one-liner/whatever you inspire your allies to new heights, causing their blows to strike more surely. (small accuracy buff to your party, possibly limited in duration)

I Stand Alone: buffs when fighting without help from other players?

Serenity: Resistance/immunity to Confusion

Stone Cold: Resistance/Immunity to Rage

Blood Bound: possible resistance/immunity to Charm, or could just keep the charmed player from directly attacking his allies. My rough idea of fluff on this one is this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodBrothers)

Hearts on Fire: Resistance/Immunity to Enervation

Born to Lead: Some kind of small buff for your party members, possibly not up 100% of the time, that can't be removed by spells

Watcher in the Sky: You are so hard to sneak up on its like you have eyes in the sky; +X on the roll to determine if a hidden attacking enemy can get a half turn.

Child of the Wasteland: +x to some skills(such as survival), -x to others (such as Lore)
I suppose there could be a few in this vein, they'd be 1st level only abilities that are mutually exclusive.

Dance with the Devil: you pick a single enemy and gain boosts against that enemy, while possibly taking penalties against other enemies

Fists of Steel: You are better at the fine art of fisticuffs.

Dark Avenger: When another ally dies in battle due to the direct action of an enemy(charmed teammates can't proc this), you are affected by Heat Riser until either the enemy that delt the deathblow is slain, your ally is revived, or the encounter ends. (not sure if demons should proc this skill, trying to be conservative again, but still might be too much)

Hand of Doom: Maybe you can channel a death or expel type skill through your normal attack instead of just casting it? This'd cause the spell's success rate to just be whether the attack hit or not, instead of the % chance to work that is normal. maybe usable only a few times per session?


Also, will expel skills do % based damage or instakill? I've seen it both ways.

Edit: Also, I suggest advanced classes be outright ignored until after the basic classes have been made.

TL:DR: Vauron used Wall of Text attack!

Otogi
2010-12-16, 09:42 PM
Well, as far as technical skills go, I'm inclined to gank a good chunk of them from FF2d6. However, thats mostly laziness speaking.

Sounds good (Dust, by the way, picked a really good, broad scope of skills that are all pretty useful). There's also a list of "knowledges" on the Shin Megami Tensei IMAGINE wiki that might help out, but instead of a direct link, here's (http://wiki.aeriagames.com/megaten/index.php?title=Main_Page) the homepage because there's an adorable little animation of Jack Frost skiing and saying "Merry Christmas!" in the most adorable and Jack Frost-like way ever. On the other hand, here's (http://wiki.aeriagames.com/megaten/index.php?title=Expertise) the page with the knowledges.


Abilities? Well, first, how potent do you want abilities to be in comparison to passive and active skills? Also, could we use something besides 'skills' to either refer to non-combat stuff or the combat options? It just kinda feels wrong and confusing to be using 'skill' in both contexts.

Ah, the power of advantages. Always a difficult thing to figure out in these games. I think a good way to try is taking one that gives no numeric bonuses and can be taken by anyone (which should ideally be useful from 1-30). As much as it shames my pride, I have to say that none of the ones I've come up with live up to that. Galactic Punt(!), on the other hand, does and that honor goes to you (and Ms. Satonaka). Any ability that is equal it terms of power and usefulness to that is about how powerful.

And, oh God, yes. I'm thinking expertise, or knacks or talents. Maybe even proficiency.


Random thought for Wild Card: Perhaps we should go for a modified version of the P2 way of getting new persona. My (vague) idea is that you negotiate with a demon, and if you succeed you can ask for a card, which you can later turn in for a persona of the arcana of the demon you get it from. Only one card would be used per persona, as farming two hundred Star cards to call upon Lucifer would be a terrible grind. Level, and possibly requiring an item to unlock certain persona would be how persona access is restricted. I like the idea in part because it gives a reason why Wild Cards should actually care about Negotiation other than trying to give boosts to an ally's attempt. Your thoughts?

Ah, so that's where the item thing was from! I like the idea, and it's a lot better since I was originally going to go with the card collection thing.


Deft Application of Force: Your stat STR/DEX/INT/MAG/AGI/ or LUC is X higher for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites to learn skills.
(depending on the numbers, I could see up to 7 versions of that ability. There could be one potent one for each statistic, and one that weakly works for all of them.)

Sounds perfect. Should be weaker than the elemental affinity bonus though, but that's been noted. And I like the "one for all" thing, but that might work later in the game.


Never Say Die: Should the PC be reduced below 1 HP or affected by an instant death skill that does not deal damage, the player can roll 2d6. If a 12 is rolled, the PC survives with 1 HP.
(I vaguely remember a passive skill in this vein, but, eh, why not. Perhaps more outcomes of the dice-roll could be allowed to work, but I'm trying to be conservative.)

Endurance, I believe. Never really felt it was useful for a skill slot, but this is tabletop. Sounds alright, but a critical hit might be more attractive. 11-12? Perhaps it stays a skill?


Willing Shield: some way for PCs to take hits for each other, imagine Junpei throwing Mitsuru out of the way of an agidyne. This would also be a nice ability for a Summoner's demon to have, and I expect would be one that a summoner would try to propagate through their demons if abilities could be inherited.

Like the 1st level Social Link ability that only activates when someone is about to die (from a single attack)?


Voracity: When the Avatar Tuner consumes an entity, they are considered to have eaten more than they actually have. (if each entity gives the same amount, than it'd be like eating 2 dudes, or if levels are involved, than the target is considered to have a higher level)
This is an Avatar Tuner specific ability, and it assumes that they have to deal with the need to feed to stay sane. Also maybe Avatar Tuners can eat enemies that weren't consumed during the fight after the battle to get a small amount of healing and help keep hunger in check.

If the feed mechanics ever come in, this will definitely make the list in some form.


Unthreatening: Generally speaking enemy combatants will attack another target over you, although this is no protection from multitarget skills.
(what exactly this might mean mechanically, I'm not sure. This is more intended for Summoners really, and it assumes that the demons you have bent to your will can be targeted by the enemy.)

Sounds cool, but I have absolutely no idea on how it would work. Maybe "Make a demon intercept an enemy attack once per X?"


No Sacrifice, No Victory: some way to increase damage of physical skills by paying more life

I like the idea, but the combination of calculating percents and the particular skill damage might be to difficult to calculate.


Ready!: A boost to initiative

Awesome.


Scars: Somehow you have been marked with a scar that is not easilly concealable which aids you in intimidating others. The bonus, or penalty, of taking a threatening stance in negotiations increases by 1. (maybe by 2? generally trying to go for too weak over too strong)

Not sure about the flavor, but I like the idea of bonuses on different stances.

Innocent: NEG boost with certain personalities and/or species.
(I suppose there could be a few of these, kinda iffy on the general idea of it though, so I'm just tossing it out into the aether.)

I thought it would relate to the above, so aether filled.


Black Blade: You have a strange weapon that you dare not trust that continues to grow more powerful.
(at this point I'm gonna admit that I've started looking at song titles in my library for ideas, in case it wasn't obvious)

Not sure how it works since you would need an ever advancing weapon, but sounds like a good list. Could find a way in.


Fade Away: more likely to succeed when running away

Could use a new name, but it sounds great if its a big enough bonus.


Fury of the Storm: ability to voluntarilly induce Rage on yourself, and/or possibly causing you to deal more damage or hit more often in Rage

Kinda reminds me of the Bezerker ability I was thinking about for Avatar Tuners (which lets one activate a mode where they can't use skills and receive a penalty of defense, but they get a bonus to damage and all their attack do Almighty damage). Not sure now, but this sounds pretty sweet


Cry of the Brave: With a mighty shout/witty one-liner/whatever you inspire your allies to new heights, causing their blows to strike more surely. (small accuracy buff to your party, possibly limited in duration)

This one I'm not so sure about, but I don't know why. I think its the -kaja buffs that make it feels redundant.

I Stand Alone: buffs when fighting without help from other players?

That seems a little to situational, and there are other ways to balance out things for one player. Could still go in, though if there's a need.


Serenity: Resistance/immunity to Confusion

Stone Cold: Resistance/Immunity to Rage

Blood Bound: possible resistance/immunity to Charm, or could just keep the charmed player from directly attacking his allies. My rough idea of fluff on this one is this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BloodBrothers)

Hearts on Fire: Resistance/Immunity to Enervation

Could work. FFd6 has an ability that gives two immunities, if that helps.


Born to Lead: Some kind of small buff for your party members, possibly not up 100% of the time, that can't be removed by spells

I dunno, it's kinda undefined.


Watcher in the Sky: You are so hard to sneak up on its like you have eyes in the sky; +X on the roll to determine if a hidden attacking enemy can get a half turn.

Sounds good.


Child of the Wasteland: +x to some skills(such as survival), -x to others (such as Lore)
I suppose there could be a few in this vein, they'd be 1st level only abilities that are mutually exclusive.

Like a trait from Fallout?


Dance with the Devil: you pick a single enemy and gain boosts against that enemy, while possibly taking penalties against other enemies

Like Dodge? I could see that.


Fists of Steel: You are better at the fine art of fisticuffs.

This one I'm not to sure about. In every game, anyone who's ever used punches and kicks improved them through gloves of boots.


Dark Avenger: When another ally dies in battle due to the direct action of an enemy(charmed teammates can't proc this), you are affected by Heat Riser until either the enemy that delt the deathblow is slain, your ally is revived, or the encounter ends. (not sure if demons should proc this skill, trying to be conservative again, but still might be too much)

Sounds cool, but might be a little to strong considering the other abilities.


Hand of Doom: Maybe you can channel a death or expel type skill through your normal attack instead of just casting it? This'd cause the spell's success rate to just be whether the attack hit or not, instead of the % chance to work that is normal. maybe usable only a few times per session?

Sound more useful for all skills, and more like a class ability for those who don't summon or transform or anything.


Also, will expel skills do % based damage or instakill? I've seen it both ways.

It depends. The Hama skills will definitely insta-kill, while other skills can do things like half HP. Same with cure/dark skills.


Edit: Also, I suggest advanced classes be outright ignored until after the basic classes have been made.

Sounds a-okay with me, although every now and then I'll jot a few names down (if that's okay with you).


TL:DR: Vauron used Wall of Text attack!

Wall of Text void with Some Time to Sort It All Out! Otogi's turn.

EDIT: And here's a draft list of classes in this template:

Class Name
Foci (Their main power, like calling demons)
Example (These babies didn't come from nowhere; who these characters are based on)
Prime Feature (The feature that separates users of the same foci)
Secondary Features (Features that give the class a little more fluff and "umph" mechanically, also differentiating them)
Variable Features (A feature(s) that is always there, but changes every some amount of levels)


Demon Controllers
Example: Hero (SMT) and Aleph (SMT II)
Foci: Demon Summoning
Prime Feature: Dual Summoning (Summon 2 demons into battle)
Secondary Features: None/None coming to mind
Variable Feature: Demon Stock (The amount of demons you may keep in storage)



Devil Summoners
Example: Protagonists of Demon Summoner and Soul Hackers, Raidou Kuzunoha the XIVth
Foci: Demon Summoning
Prime Features: Loyalty (Demons gain ranks faster)
Secondary Feature: Prowess (Better at combat)
Variable Ability: Demon Stock (See Demon Controller)



Persona Users
Example: Most of SEES (P3) and the Investigation Team (P4)
Foci: Persona Summoning
Prime Feature: Evolving Persona (Personae keeps advancing with character)
Secondary Feature: Skill Focus (Gains free skills from and bonuses to a certain elemental skill line, such as Agi or Hama, etc.)
Variable Feature: None



Avatar Tuner
Example: The Embryon (DDS)
Foci: Demon Transformation
Prime Feature: Mantras (Gains a set of skills every few levels
Secondary Feature: Skill Variety (Can change any skills learned from a mantra after battle)
Variable Feature: Skill Slots



Devil Child
Example: Protagonists from the Devil Children and DemiKids games
Foci: Demon Summoning
Prime Feature: Ally (Gain a permanent ally that gain skills from fusion)
Secondary Feature: ?
Variable Feature: Demon Stock



Wild Card
Example: The playable characters from Persona 1 and 2, the Protagonists from Persona 3 and 4
Foci: Persona Summoner
Prime Feature: Switchable Personae (Switch personae as a free action)
Secondary Feature: Prime Arcana (Gain a bonus for using personae of a specific type)
Variable Feature: Personae Stock



Demon Sponsored
Example: The Demi-fiend (SMT III: N)
Foci: Demon Summoning
Prime Feature: Magatama (Select demonic parasites that function as a weapon, armor, an accessory, a tool and granter of skills)
Secondary Feature: ?
Variable Feature: ?



Demon General
Example: The protagonists from the Majin Tensei series and Devil Survivor
Foci: Demon Summoning
Prime Feature: Demonic Tactics (Can enhance a demonic ally with special bonuses and abilities)
Seondary Feature: ?
Variable Feature: Demon Stock



Ideal Champion
Example: The Heroine, Law Hero and Chaos Hero (SMT), Horiko (SMT II), Zelenin and Jimenez (SJ)
Foci: Skills
Prime Feature: Combat Focus (Can choose to become either a warrior or magic-user)
Secondary Feature: Alignment Bonus (Can choose starting alignment and gain bonuses based on it)
Variable Feature: ?


So, how's it look?

Vauron
2010-12-18, 02:03 AM
Ah, the power of advantages. Always a difficult thing to figure out in these games. I think a good way to try is taking one that gives no numeric bonuses and can be taken by anyone (which should ideally be useful from 1-30). As much as it shames my pride, I have to say that none of the ones I've come up with live up to that. Galactic Punt(!), on the other hand, does and that honor goes to you (and Ms. Satonaka). Any ability that is equal it terms of power and usefulness to that is about how powerful.

Hmm.... Generally, I have a harder time thinking up that kind of thing, but I'll see if anything comes to me. I suppose something like Naoto and Kanji's equivalent ability might work, though the rest I am doubtful of.




Like the 1st level Social Link ability that only activates when someone is about to die (from a single attack)?

That hadn't been what I'd been thinking of at the time, but sure, that works I suppose.



Sounds cool, but I have absolutely no idea on how it would work. Maybe "Make a demon intercept an enemy attack once per X?"
I'm still unsure of the mechanics myself. The thought was that the PC would seem too weak for the enemy to bother with first while more dangerous foes were present, so enemies would generally pick someone else to attack.



I like the idea, but the combination of calculating percents and the particular skill damage might be to difficult to calculate.

My rough thought was that it would increase the cost of physical skills by a flat amount, although that amount might be different at higher levels. (maybe it could cost your level in HP, and add twice that to the damage of your physical skills?)



Not sure how it works since you would need an ever advancing weapon, but sounds like a good list. Could find a way in.
It seems I was unclear. This ability would provide an ever advancing weapon for you. The 'dare not trust' bit is mostly due to me thinking it up while listening to the Blue Oyster Cult song of the same name.


This one I'm not so sure about, but I don't know why. I think its the -kaja buffs that make it feels redundant.
The group buff abilities I proposed were generally intended to be small bonuses that could not be dispelled, making them present even if the enemy is dekaja happy.




Sound more useful for all skills, and more like a class ability for those who don't summon or transform or anything.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say. Do you mean you want it reworked so that it would be more useful for all skills? The skill was mainly there to help dark and expel focused players actually hit anything at all in the first few tiers.

Also, I have no idea how transforming could possibly have any affect this ability. The Avatar Tuner's 'battle mode' is their default combat mode, really, only rare scripted encounters have you using human form.



Sounds a-okay with me, although every now and then I'll jot a few names down (if that's okay with you).
Fundamentally, this is your project; I'm just trying to help.


-snip lists-
So, how's it look?
No real issues with what you have there, outside of how apparently only Avatar Tuner's have limited skill slots, and a general unsureness of what exactly Prowess means.

On the subject of class creation, do you want players to get things besides skills, proficiencies, and abilities as they level up? I mean things kinda like 3.5 class features. At the least, from the sound of things both Devil Summoners and Demon Generals would kinda sorta get their own thingies when leveling up. Or am I wrong in assuming that Combination Skills and Demonic Tactics would be exclusive to the two, respectively?



Also, three random thoughts spawned by recently playing DDS:
1. Null Attack should not be available to players under any circumstance.

2. Ragnarok would be a good equivalent skill for those focusing on strength instead of magic damage. I mean the DDS version where it is a physical skill that hits all enemies for a nice amount of damage, slaps rakunda on everyone it hits, and also the damage was almighty.

3. Incenses/Noises. Will they be included? On one hand the 'one stat point per level' feels rooted in a system where you were picking up these extra stat points all through the game, on the other I can just see it being problematic to have them in at all. After all, all of the party members would be competing to use them.

Otogi
2010-12-19, 01:34 AM
Hmm.... Generally, I have a harder time thinking up that kind of thing, but I'll see if anything comes to me. I suppose something like Naoto and Kanji's equivalent ability might work, though the rest I am doubtful of.

Doesn't seem to hard. Just bump up the mechanics to start it, then slap on either Yosuke's Triple Crit + Down and Yukiko/Teddie's Crit + Dizzy.


I'm still unsure of the mechanics myself. The thought was that the PC would seem too weak for the enemy to bother with first while more dangerous foes were present, so enemies would generally pick someone else to attack.

Something that just pops into mind (and its just a thought) is that it kinda sounds like the 3.0 Sanctuary spell, maybe only for the summoner.


My rough thought was that it would increase the cost of physical skills by a flat amount, although that amount might be different at higher levels. (maybe it could cost your level in HP, and add twice that to the damage of your physical skills?)

I could see that working. Interesting idea.


It seems I was unclear. This ability would provide an ever advancing weapon for you. The 'dare not trust' bit is mostly due to me thinking it up while listening to the Blue Oyster Cult song of the same name.

Seems powerful, but sounds like it could be alright.


The group buff abilities I proposed were generally intended to be small bonuses that could not be dispelled, making them present even if the enemy is dekaja happy.

I dunno, it still doesn't mesh right for some reason. The combat in SMT games just feels "You pulled that, but AHA! I pull this". They use Agi, you use Resist Fire. Their friend uses Fire Break to break it down, while your friend uses Bufu to gain an extra attack and so on. A group buff doesn't seem have a counter doesn't really fit that feel to me.


I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say. Do you mean you want it reworked so that it would be more useful for all skills? The skill was mainly there to help dark and expel focused players actually hit anything at all in the first few tiers.

Actually, from what I've heard, Light/Excel and Dark/Curse skills are slightly more accurate than their elemental counter-parts. Its the fact that they fail that puts them off, which can be remedied by making the chance % + INT/MAG.


Also, I have no idea how transforming could possibly have any affect this ability. The Avatar Tuner's 'battle mode' is their default combat mode, really, only rare scripted encounters have you using human form.

Really? From the footage I've seen it seems you can switch on the fly for the use of ammo or some such. But really, your word against mine on this one.


Fundamentally, this is your project; I'm just trying to help.

Oh yeahhh. I forgot about that. I better put some more stuff together.


No real issues with what you have there, outside of how apparently only Avatar Tuner's have limited skill slots, and a general unsureness of what exactly Prowess means.

Again, I thought that the characters in the DDS games started off with a limited amount of skill slots to fill with the for the characters. Where the hell I get all of this mixed up?

Prowess gives Devil Summoners a bonus with weapons to make up for their lack of demon summoning power. May be abilities, but I'm not sure.


On the subject of class creation, do you want players to get things besides skills, proficiencies, and abilities as they level up? I mean things kinda like 3.5 class features. At the least, from the sound of things both Devil Summoners and Demon Generals would kinda sorta get their own thingies when leveling up. Or am I wrong in assuming that Combination Skills and Demonic Tactics would be exclusive to the two, respectively?

Exactly that, actually. At the very least, most classes have a certain amount of slots for...something. Demon stock is the big one, along with personae stock and what I thought were skill slots.


Also, three random thoughts spawned by recently playing DDS:
1. Null Attack should not be available to players under any circumstance.

Absolutely. Skills like Attack All should probably be kept under the lid as well.


2. Ragnarok would be a good equivalent skill for those focusing on strength instead of magic damage. I mean the DDS version where it is a physical skill that hits all enemies for a nice amount of damage, slaps rakunda on everyone it hits, and also the damage was almighty.

Really? Every source I keep checking makes it out to be a fire attack only available to Surt. I guess that can change here. Actually, this bring ups a question: should the physical attacks have their own lines?


3. Incenses/Noises. Will they be included? On one hand the 'one stat point per level' feels rooted in a system where you were picking up these extra stat points all through the game, on the other I can just see it being problematic to have them in at all. After all, all of the party members would be competing to use them.

To even make the game they'd have to be a reward for a high-stake boss, which defies the spirit of the Incenses and such.

By the way, how would you feel about traits for things like Child of the Wasteland similar to (fittingly) Fallout?

tyckspoon
2010-12-19, 03:23 AM
Really? From the footage I've seen it seems you can switch on the fly for the use of ammo or some such. But really, your word against mine on this one.
You can, and the biggest effect of being Ambushed/suprise attacked in the game was that you would start in Human form. You would sometimes also do it on purpose, because it made you elementally neutral and made you immune to Hama/Mudo attacks.. and there were a few enemies that were best taken out with Gun-type attacks, primarily birds and other flying enemies (although you couldn't eat them if you were in Human form, so that was mostly applied to help rapidly farm the Magic Noises from Horuses.)


Again, I thought that the characters in the DDS games started off with a limited amount of skill slots to fill with the for the characters. Where the hell I get all of this mixed up?
They do have a limited number of skill slots (8, IIRC) but I don't remember if they started with fewer and unlocked them as they leveled, or if it was just that you wouldn't have enough skills to fill all of them anyway until you'd leveled a bit and mastered a few mantras.


Really? Every source I keep checking makes it out to be a fire attack only available to Surt. I guess that can change here. Actually, this bring ups a question: should the physical attacks have their own lines?

In DDS, it's a physical all-hit. In the Summoner games where demons are usable party members, it's usually the highest-ranked Fire spell instead because it fits with the various fire-gods found in those games. I don't think the DDS games had anything above the -dyne level spells to eat the name.. for the non DDS games, the equivalent skill would probably be something like Deathbound or Gaea Rage.

Vauron
2010-12-19, 03:45 AM
Actually, from what I've heard, Light/Excel and Dark/Curse skills are slightly more accurate than their elemental counter-parts. Its the fact that they fail that puts them off, which can be remedied by making the chance % + INT/MAG.
Really? Higher accuracy? Quite frankly, I had been attempting to refer to the % chance to for it to work, not just whether it connected or not.



Really? From the footage I've seen it seems you can switch on the fly for the use of ammo or some such. But really, your word against mine on this one.

I was wondering why you referred to the form that you spend 99% of combat time in as a super-powered form, which seemed to imply a temporary thing like Orgia Mode. Human form has two real purposes. The first is a fairly rare random encounter that has enemies that can only be effectively hurt with gun element damage. The second is for when you are in a new game plus and you want to do the equivalent of a no magic + no limit break run in a FF game. In human form, you can use none of your skills, not even the passives. Later in the game, bosses start casting spells that force you into human form as a debuff.



Again, I thought that the characters in the DDS games started off with a limited amount of skill slots to fill with the for the characters. Where the hell I get all of this mixed up?

Didn't the demifiend have the same limitation? Sure he gained skills much slower, since it was just at level up, but I coulda sworn he was unable to equip 8 abilities at the start. My issue was that it seemed that only the Avatar Tuners had a limited number of skills equipable. Looking back, I now can see that the wild cards and persona users didn't have that concern, they just generally didn't gain skills so fast.





Absolutely. Skills like Attack All should probably be kept under the lid as well.

I don't think Attack All would even be an issue, certainly not compared with a passive that made you immune to everything besides Almighty damage, and the -unda debuffs.



Really? Every source I keep checking makes it out to be a fire attack only available to Surt. I guess that can change here. Actually, this bring ups a question: should the physical attacks have their own lines?

I'm aware that, in the Persona games, Ragnarok is a single target very high damage Fire spell. (I think I managed to have my Messiah inherit it, so at least in FES you _could_ propagate it.)
I'm referring to the DDS version, however.
Here is a guide that has a good description of the skills and mantras in DDS1. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/920605-shin-megami-tensei-digital-devil-saga/faqs/36585)

Relevant Section
Physical/Hunting Mantras [#009.4.1]
*snip*

Destroyer Mantra
Ragnarok - Costs 35% of Max HP, An Almighty attack that does heavy damage to all targets and lowers their defense.

As to physicals having their own lines, I thought they kinda sorta did. Or at least there were higher versions of physical skills. I distinctly remember one of my demons in Nocturne upgrading a Feral Bite into a Venom Bite. Still, I have no strong opinion one way or another on the issue.


By the way, how would you feel about traits for things like Child of the Wasteland similar to (fittingly) Fallout?

No issue there.


Edit: Tcykspoon, why in the world even bother spending the turn to take human form when Horus is weak to dark skills? By that point you have no excuse to not have either Murder Rock, a reusable item that casts mamudoon, or at least Al Azif, a reusable item that casts mamudo? Beelzebub isn't easy if you are unprepared, true, but with a little preparation even his fly form is simple enough to curbstomp.

Pamela
2010-12-19, 11:19 AM
Hi, Im a big Fan of the Shin megami old games...

so im very happy if this topic:smallbiggrin:

And I have a doubt, The members of the cult of Gaia and Messiahs, are considered demons in the game mechanics, but they have human class like the punks and yakuza Members...

My Doubt is if they will be demons or a player Class?

Because in the second and first game and in the new online game they have a key participation, it is impossible to make a campaign about it without them...
Just this :smallwink:

Otogi
2010-12-22, 05:12 AM
Really? Higher accuracy? Quite frankly, I had been attempting to refer to the % chance to for it to work, not just whether it connected or not.

So problem solved with low Light/Dark % working?


I was wondering why you referred to the form that you spend 99% of combat time in as a super-powered form, which seemed to imply a temporary thing like Orgia Mode. Human form has two real purposes. The first is a fairly rare random encounter that has enemies that can only be effectively hurt with gun element damage. The second is for when you are in a new game plus and you want to do the equivalent of a no magic + no limit break run in a FF game. In human form, you can use none of your skills, not even the passives. Later in the game, bosses start casting spells that force you into human form as a debuff.

And I was wondering why most people always stayed in the form. Kinda seems silly to think otherwise now, doesn't it? Anyway, I guess not a lot changes in demon form, then (besides the ability to use weapons and armor). And now that's everything is clear, they'll be easier to make.


Didn't the demifiend have the same limitation? Sure he gained skills much slower, since it was just at level up, but I coulda sworn he was unable to equip 8 abilities at the start. My issue was that it seemed that only the Avatar Tuners had a limited number of skills equipable. Looking back, I now can see that the wild cards and persona users didn't have that concern, they just generally didn't gain skills so fast.

True, but remember, they have an infinite amount of skills to choose from and other characters gain skills slower. Still, 4 is rather low when everyone else has 8 from the start. I'll either set it to about 6 from the start, or make have them gain slots faster.


I don't think Attack All would even be an issue, certainly not compared with a passive that made you immune to everything besides Almighty damage, and the -unda debuffs.

Yeah, I've got to admit, that's pretty far out. Its gone.


I'm aware that, in the Persona games, Ragnarok is a single target very high damage Fire spell. (I think I managed to have my Messiah inherit it, so at least in FES you _could_ propagate it.)
I'm referring to the DDS version, however.
Here is a guide that has a good description of the skills and mantras in DDS1. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/920605-shin-megami-tensei-digital-devil-saga/faqs/36585)

Relevant Section
Physical/Hunting Mantras [#009.4.1]
*snip*

Destroyer Mantra
Ragnarok - Costs 35% of Max HP, An Almighty attack that does heavy damage to all targets and lowers their defense.

Makes sense, but I'm still hesitant to do so because 1) More games have started to use it as a fire skill than just the Persona games and 2) I'm having trouble finding an "ultimate element" fire skill similar to Niflheim and Die for Me. For a final Physical skill, I like the effect; I just don't want to use the name.


As to physicals having their own lines, I thought they kinda sorta did. Or at least there were higher versions of physical skills. I distinctly remember one of my demons in Nocturne upgrading a Feral Bite into a Venom Bite. Still, I have no strong opinion one way or another on the issue.

In Nocturne, that was sorta true; those were decided by who can physically have them (Feral Bite evolved into Venom Bite because it could only be used by character's with jaws, same with "Wing" or "Claw' skills). There were a whole bunch of skills that didn't require body parts. Still, the more I think about it, the more I feel the same; advancing by power rather than name is fine.


No issue there.

Sweet.

While I'm still here, I've made quite a few decisions about some of the mechanics:

-Characters gain 2 traits at 1st level, one based on background and one on a characteristic. This helps flesh out the characters further and puts abilities into their own league without having to add some very odd abilities for flavor.
-Demons do gain abilities, with such exclusives ones as "Elemental Refute" and perhaps "Call Ally"
-I've decided to go with your idea of "resistance points", Vauron. I'm thinking about demons gaining a point every 3 levels, with a trade off of points for accepting an elemental weakness, of course.
-There will now be 4 types of defenses: Physical, Magic, Ailment and Fatal, with Magic and Fatal having different modifying stats besides Vitality (MAG and LCK).

And that's it for now. I'll add more after a good night's sleep.

Vauron
2010-12-22, 01:53 PM
So problem solved with low Light/Dark % working?
It appears that I have utterly failed to express myself in an understandable fashion. First, having managed to find numbers for accuracy in FES, at least in that game you are correct in that hama/mudo skills are generally more likely not to 'miss'. HOWEVER, as far as a player is concerned, there is little difference between 'I wasted my turn because it missed.', and 'I wasted my turn because I used a spell that fails 80% of the time'. That effectively shifts 'accuracy' very much out of their favor. Now, I'm aware that that is largely intentional, as they were insta-kill spells.

My intention with the ability I wrote was that they'd basically make an attack, and instead of doing damage when they hit, they'd do a 100% effective insta-kill spell of either expel or dark element, depending on what they have. This'd be only a once or twice a session kinda thing, and of course it would still be affected by immunities. Considering how luck based expel and dark casters will be, and how useless those skills are on bosses, it just seemed a decent bone to throw them.





While I'm still here, I've made quite a few decisions about some of the mechanics:

-Characters gain 2 traits at 1st level, one based on background and one on a characteristic. This helps flesh out the characters further and puts abilities into their own league without having to add some very odd abilities for flavor.
-Demons do gain abilities, with such exclusives ones as "Elemental Refute" and perhaps "Call Ally"
-I've decided to go with your idea of "resistance points", Vauron. I'm thinking about demons gaining a point every 3 levels, with a trade off of points for accepting an elemental weakness, of course.
-There will now be 4 types of defenses: Physical, Magic, Ailment and Fatal, with Magic and Fatal having different modifying stats besides Vitality (MAG and LCK).

And that's it for now. I'll add more after a good night's sleep.

I had expected that stuff like Call Ally would fall under the province of enemy only skills, but alright. The main reasons I had for ablities being limited to PCs and PC controlled demons were simply to make demon creation easier for you, and because it seemed a simple enough way for summoner controlled demons to become greater and more terrible than their 'free' counterparts.

Alright, so player characters gain: skills, proficiencies, abilities, and traits? Just making sure I have it straight. I take it by 'background' you mean something like 'Student', while a characteristic trait would be something like 'Cool under Fire' or 'Inquisitive'?

So at level 1, a character would have X skills (Probably decided by class), 2 traits, X proficiencies (possibly affected by INT), and 2 abilities?

Otogi
2010-12-22, 07:08 PM
It appears that I have utterly failed to express myself in an understandable fashion. First, having managed to find numbers for accuracy in FES, at least in that game you are correct in that hama/mudo skills are generally more likely not to 'miss'. HOWEVER, as far as a player is concerned, there is little difference between 'I wasted my turn because it missed.', and 'I wasted my turn because I used a spell that fails 80% of the time'. That effectively shifts 'accuracy' very much out of their favor. Now, I'm aware that that is largely intentional, as they were insta-kill spells.

My intention with the ability I wrote was that they'd basically make an attack, and instead of doing damage when they hit, they'd do a 100% effective insta-kill spell of either expel or dark element, depending on what they have. This'd be only a once or twice a session kinda thing, and of course it would still be affected by immunities. Considering how luck based expel and dark casters will be, and how useless those skills are on bosses, it just seemed a decent bone to throw them.

Just that? Well, sure, I could see the game having that.



I had expected that stuff like Call Ally would fall under the province of enemy only skills, but alright. The main reasons I had for ablities being limited to PCs and PC controlled demons were simply to make demon creation easier for you, and because it seemed a simple enough way for summoner controlled demons to become greater and more terrible than their 'free' counterparts.

Alright, so player characters gain: skills, proficiencies, abilities, and traits? Just making sure I have it straight. I take it by 'background' you mean something like 'Student', while a characteristic trait would be something like 'Cool under Fire' or 'Inquisitive'?

So at level 1, a character would have X skills (Probably decided by class), 2 traits, X proficiencies (possibly affected by INT), and 2 abilities?

Agh! That's what I meant for it to fall under! That really should just be a tactic option instead of an ability.

Demon creation should still be pretty easier, and perhaps easier since everybody fallows the same format. I'll have to make a demon with it first, though.

And that's exactly right.